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/ratanon/ - Rationalists Anonymous

Remember when /ratanon/ was good?

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 No.10801 [Open thread][Last50 Posts]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SneerClub/comments/7633el/not_the_critic_who_counts/

Why does /u/caquilino refuse to disavow /ratanon? Do your civic duty and make sure they don't get elected president.

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 No.10971

>>10970

Normtards need to go to hell.

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 No.10972

File: 2e3091be85daeb6⋯.png (115.9 KB,1040x874,520:437,Screenshot.png)

The Pinboard guy is still at it. The probability is rising he will publish something specific, allowing Scott to deliver a thorough, thoughtful, nonviolent ass-whipping to a social media personality.

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 No.10996

/r/Sneerclub is really disappointing.

I first came across it just after I'd read some sensible critique of Yudkowsky, about his expectations about AI and his attitude towards pop culture vs high culture and people with degrees. It didn't convince me that he was terrible (and it didn't try to), but it did add some much-needed nuance.

So I expected to learn things that added the same kind of nuance to my opinion about SSC and SSC-adjacent activities. But then I followed a link, and I just saw people quoting things and saying how much bullshit they were, and nobody was explaining why they were bullshit, and I kept scrolling and it was just more of the same. I wasn't learning much.

It's a place for people who already dislike the rationalist community to talk about how much they dislike them, not a place that tries to change minds. I should have expected that, from the name and the description, but it was disappointing anyway.

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 No.11002

>>10996

I understand that it's hard to comprehend that your precious ingroup "grey tribe" member is wrong, but I think you're taking important steps on the path to enlightenment. That said:

nerd voice "It's a place for people who already dislike the rationalist community to talk about how much they dislike them, not a place that tries to change minds. I should have expected that, from the name and the description, but it was disappointing anyway."

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 No.11004

(((nerd voice)))

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File: 7f1b601b3761b64⋯.jpg (362.46 KB,1199x1200,1199:1200,cuLQ8vP.jpg)

 No.10965 [Open thread]

So what happened to this guy ? Did he just give up on making these ?

I kinda liked it because I don't like to clutter my rss reader with shitty feeds since most rat blogs have on good post in 10.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/pgr/rational_feed_last_weeks_community_articles_and/

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 No.10975

he's still posting it on his blog https://deluks917.wordpress.com/ and in the slatestarcodex discord

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 No.10976

yes but it doesn't have to recommended section it used to have.

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File: e73245a68e6d2a4⋯.jpg (12.79 KB,320x458,160:229,epicurus2.jpg)

 No.10936 [Open thread]

The body is unable to sense anything without the soul, as is the soul without the body. Therefore, when the soul leaves the body, no awareness remains. There cannot, according to Epicurus, be any afterlife. Death is a complete stop. This he regards as reason not to worry at all about dying: "death is nothing to us, for good and evil imply sentience, and death is the privation of all sentience." Life can only be enjoyable if one ceases to yearn for immortality, and renounces the fear of an endless afterlife in one or other torment: "either because of the myths, or because we are in dread of the mere insensibility of death, as if it had to do with us." When dying is simply ceasing to perceive, to feel, to be, there is nothing in it to dread.

Death, therefore, the most awful of evils, is nothing to us, seeing that, when we are, death is not come, and, when death is come, we are not.

Therefore, learning to live well is not different from learning to die well - the only reasonable way to prepare for the latter is to make the former, in itself and for itself, the fullest.

http://www.stenudd.com/greekphilosophers/epicurus.htm

Transhumanism is so stupid.

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 No.10945

>>10936

Transhumanism isn't stupid, I'll tell you what's fucking stupid; reducing transhumanism to "fear of death".

A longer, happier, healthier life is better than the opposite. You can't prove that wrong with sophistry about how one should feel about dying.

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 No.10946

>>10945

>A longer, happier, healthier life

Says the 300 lbs, pot smoking, basement dwelling beer drinker.

Eliezer Yudkowsky is a fat fuck.

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 No.10948

>>10946

Stop ad hominem. The world is already very awful in terms of rationality. Don't try to corrupt our rationalist community together with moralists (mostly SJWs).

Oh and I'm not >>10945 even though I agree with him/her. I'm the resident autist. If this shit continues I will start a recruitment campaign to get real rationalists into my own forum. LW, SSC and OB are lost to dogmatic liberals. I don't want to see this one lost to casual, irrational, low-quality posts.

We must unite and find a way out or elites who believe in nonsense and instill their slaves with more nonsense will destroy us forever.

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 No.10950

>>10946

Are you what they call a "rationality-adjacent"?

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 No.10951

>>10936

>we are in dread of the mere insensibility of death

You hardly need to "dread" death to want to avoid it in favor of doing other things. Besides, the people who care about you will still be there and be upset if you die.

>>10939

If a treatment became available that stopped aging and let you run a marathon whenever you felt like it, hold you breath for 20 minutes and lift 800 lbs, would you refuse it?

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File: 12113cddba78938⋯.jpg (50.13 KB,600x600,1:1,a1169669897_10sbs9y.jpg)

 No.10636 [Open thread]

What do I read after I read the sequences and the meme compilation of scott's posts (Library of Alexandria) ?

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 No.10833

You see a pastebin link. You don't need to click to know its contents.

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 No.10835

>>10636

legit philosophy.

I started off with a bunch of Karl Popper essays, who actually often touches on the same topics as a lot of these rationalist folks. very interesting stuff about the philosophy of science, problem of induction, nice debunk of historicism in the social sciences, fun stuff.

The Problems of Philosophy is a more technical introduction, by Bertrand Russell to some core analytic philosophy topics.

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 No.10887

>>10835

Agreed. I also like legit philosophy.

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 No.10927

>>10657

>Marxism is a systematic, technical, rational critique of capitalism—and therefore a stage 4 ideology.

What did he mean by this?

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 No.10931

>>10927

I think it's fairly clear in the context. Coming from Chapman, it isn't high praise, if that's what you are wondering.

>A stage 4 social system is rational in at least the sense that there is a reason for the nature of each role and relationship; and the reasons together provide an interlocking structure of justification. “Therefore,” an asymmetric relationship between ideas, is the epistemic key to stage 4.

>Political leftism tends to monism, and rightism to dualism. The communal mode tends to mistake the logic of stage 4 for rightish ideologies, particularly capitalism. However, stage 4 is not inherently rightist or anti-leftist. Marxism is a systematic, technical, rational critique of capitalism—and therefore a stage 4 ideology. (Notwithstanding that campus communists rarely understand Marxism’s details, and often misuse it as a simple stage 3 rejection of systematicity.) John Rawls’ Theory of Justice is an elegant stage 4 systematic justification for leftism. Conversely, stage 3 rightism is common; that is the appeal of simplistic calls to “protect our traditional communities.”

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File: 947c3923fe46038⋯.png (37.66 KB,853x658,853:658,eriga lory.png)

 No.10776 [Open thread]

So what did y'all think of Unsong? I thought the ending was p. good. Those puns really were bullshit, though.

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 No.10787

>>10776

It's pretty good, but I wish Scott had kept the multiple endings he was planning to do. I kind of want him to do something more "literary" with less fantastical elements though. I feel he needs to learn to write from the PoV of a character that isn't a late 20s self-insert.

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 No.10788

>>10777

>I know what the actual solution to theodicy is

This better not be a pun. Speaking of, what is /ratanon/'s opinion on Unsong's spiritual predecessor, The Study of Anglophysics?

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 No.10789

>>10784

I meant bullshit like in a good way.

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 No.10823

>>10788

Answer to Job is Unsong's spiritual predecessor.

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 No.10901

>>10823

It's also a bit of a spoiler. Metatron's answer would have been much more dramatically if I hadn't previously read it on SSC.

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File: 9c71d1a4136be32⋯.png (13.57 KB,418x480,209:240,Crow-1-Red.png)

 No.10894 [Open thread]

>Cigarette filters, you find them in the park next to you in the grass, in dirty ditches and under your shoes. What if we could find a way to collect these butts from all corners of our city and precious parks? With crows, that have become perfectly adapted to city life, we can! By training crows to recognize and pick up cigarette filters we can solve this tenacious problem of city pollution.

>http://www.crowdedcities.com

>Slavery is not 'negative reinforcement training'. Indeed, it is possible to be a slave and be rewarded for good work. Slavery is where you have no choice but to work. If the food reward is substantial enough to be worth a crow's while, then it confers a competitive advantage and crows that refrain from this behaviour will face pressure on their food sources from the offspring of the well-fed crows; essentially you've artificially raised the carrying capacity of the ecosystem, for those crows that agree to your "bargain". Effectively, for the crows, the choice becomes "pick up cigarettes or starve".

>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15487285

Thoughts? Is this a fully general argument against domestication?

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 No.10897

Sounds fantastic to me.

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 No.10899

File: b87b4cf111a0cfa⋯.jpg (66.51 KB,800x450,16:9,fruit tree.jpg)

>Is this a fully general argument against domestication?

No it's stupid. It's not even domestication.

>If the food reward is substantial enough to be worth a human's while, then it confers a competitive advantage and humans that refrain from this behaviour will face pressure on their food sources from the offspring of the well-fed humans; essentially you've artificially raised the carrying capacity of the ecosystem, for those humans that agree to your "bargain". Effectively, for the human, the choice becomes "help plants propagate or starve".

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File: ca8866297f33724⋯.jpg (47.58 KB,624x843,208:281,muslims.jpg)

 No.10651 [Open thread]

What does this graph tell us about the future? Let's be honest.

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 No.10775

>>10774

You mean Islam or the people? They won't be harmed in the long run regardless of how good people try though. It's just like nuking Japan. Didn't do too much long-term harm.

Nobody can really destroy a strong people such as Poles through persecution. Nobody can really lift up a weak people such as black Americans through social justice.

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 No.10783

>>10775

Nuking Japan achieved the intended goal; a militaristic empire was reduced to a pacifistic client state.

If you're actually trying to commit genocide instead, committing genocide isn't actually that difficult as long as no-one stops you. Generalplan Ost would've destroyed the Poles but the Nazis lost.

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 No.10790

>>10783

I agree with you on nukes. Japan won't be a client state forever though.

However when there exist more than two tribes genocide in the sense of killing people is actually a pretty unprofitable policy in general. For example if one day suddenly an engineered disease hits Madagascar and almost all Malagasies die. Then China moves in and declare Madagascar a Chinese province. I'm sure that the West won't simply let China do that because no one is safe if anyone can break the "Do not massacre almost all civilians in another country in a sudden attack without a declaration of war" rule then everyone else can break it. That can exterminate almost all humans so it must not be allowed.

Massacring all Poles was in fact much harder than what's written on paper. Simply rounding up all Poles and shooting them would have required a lot of German soldiers, SS, etc which was unfeasible when there was actually a war going on.

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 No.10791

>>10775

>It's just like nuking Japan. Didn't do too much long-term harm.

Two nukes wasn't enough.

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 No.10792

>>10791

But would this have been profitable?

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File: 4dd56dc1999a968⋯.png (68.25 KB,217x320,217:320,decline.png)

 No.10110 [Open thread][Last50 Posts]

Society is becoming more sexually segregated, and that's a bad thing. The growth of Islam in the West is a direct cause, but there are also other reasons.

1. Universities are now female spaces. Go to any university, and it's going to be like 70% women at least. What's even worse is that the classes are binary. They are either overwhelmingly male or overwhelmingly female. Second year physics? 90% men. Second year psychology? 90% women.

2. The internet is extremely segregated. Every subreddit, Facebook page, and hashtag is either used by women or men. Websites tend to be male dominated or female dominated. 4chan is overwhelmingly male and Etsy is overwhelmingly female.

3. No one goes out anymore because everyone is broke and inner cities have crime, terrorism, or both. In the 90s, young people went to mixed sex concerts and bars, which are now basically banned in Sweden thanks to Muslims. http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-40504452

4. The majority of young men never develop female friends now, lovers, or girlfriends until they are over 30 thanks to things like Tinder. 20% of men get 80% of the action, so 80% of men basically have no women in their life other than there mom. Even worse, small families mean that many men don't even have a sister anymore.

5. Video games are even more sexually binary than university classes. Pick a game, any game, and it's going to be at least 70% one sex or the other.

This is the destruction of the social norm that basically defined the modern West. We are becoming Asians on our own soil.

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 No.10738

>>10737

>that won't be received with outrage by the people who voted for "send them back to Africa" either.

Well, democracies aren't good at holding principled stands in general.

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 No.10743

>>10737

Sure. If colonialism is going to be tolerated by other countries it will be logistically feasible to send them back to Africa.

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 No.10768

>>10684

>>10690

>>10736

>>10735

>>10738

Free genehacking clinics everywhere. Are you all trying to be retardedly evil or what?

lrn2transhumanism ffs

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 No.10771

>>10743

If the Fascist States of America want to knock over half the governments in West Africa to found Greater Liberia, who the fuck is going to stop them?

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 No.10772

>>10771

Sure. I doubt Russia or China will do anything about it.

However if the plan is to start mass extermination and transform a part of Africa into a settler zone or robot zone are there people who will intervene?

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File: 4acf54bb8fd04b8⋯.png (60.05 KB,753x521,753:521,Hillary Clinton AI Risk.png)

 No.10723 [Open thread]

wtf I love Hillary now

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 No.10729

>implying this shit isn't shadowritten by and group focused by an entire team of cucks

of course they're going to mention A.I, who cares today about social capital and doesn't care about A.I ?

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 No.10748

File: 124a3544734d76c⋯.jpg (83.92 KB,600x570,20:19,land.jpg)

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 No.10753

"Maybe I should have"

She seems to basically understand the issue, so yes, maybe she should have. On the other hand, it's not like Trump would have said "Yes, I want the world to get paperclipped". Not even Trump would say that. So it's kind of pointless to bring up, given that there are no known solutions.[*]

Obviously, if there are known solutions, please reveal them.

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 No.10757

Do you think she wrote it herself? (This is not a rhetorical question.)

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File: 0556c524a0f0893⋯.jpg (37.92 KB,445x459,445:459,HS.jpg)

 No.10638 [Open thread]

I became an atheist at 14, and I've been searching for a new moral community ever since. Every single atheist community eventually gets subverted by SJWs, unless it explicitly defines itself as not being left wing. I was a New Atheist, then Atheism+ happened. I joined secular humanist associations, but they are just anti-conservative circle jerks.

What I am about to tell you is uncommon knowledge, because the Church forbids proselytizing. I am not a member of the Church, but I think I am going to join after graduating from university.

The Church of Satan is basically an atheist organization that embraces sexual liberation, but rejects most of egalitarianism and other forms of cuckoldry. It was founded in 1966, before any of the SJW bullshit got started. It judges members based on their merits, not by their race, color, or sexual orientation. It was the first Church in the world to allow LGBT members to join and become clergy. Mark my words, "effective altruism" is going to go the way of New Atheism. It will turn into cucked, SJW bullshit in less than 5 years.

The reason I am telling you is because it's not normal to spend this much time thinking about politics outside of election years. Humans need a moral community instead of constantly reasoning their way through every little new moral dilemma. Thinking is expensive, but the Church encourages independent, free thought. I think Scott Alexander would fit in well with the Church of Satan. The Church is needed now more than ever as Christendom falls apart.

Since I have decided to join, I have felt an inner peace. I feel like I have found a religious community that would understand me. They may or may not accept me, but knowing that there is a moral community in which I would not be banned for being a "racist" or a "sodomite" feels nice. I hope that you also learn to feel the same feeling, and find some inner peace from it. I am done with effective altruism, Lesswrong, transhumanism, and every other desperate attempt at atheists escaping Christian slave morality. I have found my religious center. Goodbye.

To give you an idea of what the Church is like:

Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.10688

>>10686

This is an interesting approach. We can call it "take back our girls". How shall we implement it though?

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 No.10702

File: 817e7bceda20af1⋯.png (536.29 KB,800x444,200:111,1415938633676.png)

>>10638

Atheistic Satanism is weak shit, and the fact that "the" "church of satan" is just a mix of warmed-over objectivism and generic secular humanism that seized the iconography is the most depressing thing about this timeline.

How can you possibly support the affront to all things metal that this pussified excuse for a satanic cult represents while calling leftists "cucks"?

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 No.10710

>>10702

Objectivism seems pretty satanic, but why are them humanist? Is that by design or they have an entryist takeover?

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 No.10722

>>10702

They're Epicureans, not humanists, you faggot cuck.

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 No.10732

>>10710

>>10722

"generic secular humanism" is what I'm calling the sprinklings of boring conventional morality added to the objectivism, which I maybe shouldn't because it's still not generic enough for what I actually mean.

Shit like "don't rape people" should follow from principles, not specific injunctions, and the place those injunctions come from without principles is the surrounding conventional morality.

Also, the Eleven Rules of the Earth are cringey as fuck, I mean come on, "mating signal"?

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File: fc4e274704bd7f9⋯.jpg (249.43 KB,607x608,607:608,1503169149143.jpg)

 No.10711 [Open thread]

Has anyone ever met a rationalsphere celebrity IRL? I've always wondered what Eliezer was like in person.

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 No.10721

>>10711

I talked to big Yud on Twitter once. He's cool.

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 No.10725

I live in Berkeley (Cal student) and apart from one meetup at MIRI where I got to meet Scott and some other people I've never seen any rationalist celebs around here.

The Berkeley rationalist community keeps a really low profile around here. Even the EA group at Cal is pretty detached from them.

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File: 5033af1f1c06843⋯.jpg (44.04 KB,600x600,1:1,JDtYOeP.jpg)

 No.10614 [Open thread]

>be me

>shitty neet

>mom works as a nurse in some kind calm looney bin

>mostly people with depression and whatnot

>left her keys at home, so I'm waiting for her in the main hall

>doctor talking with the mom? of a patient

>lean in closer

>"Yes, your son is pissing himself because his father died"

>contain my laughter

>wait for the white robed maniac to go away

>convince the woman to arrange for her kin to see a specialist

How the fuck do these pieces of shit still get work today ?

Even if I peed myself non-stop if someone told me I did it because of his magical insight into the human psyche without first requiring me to visit doctors of other specialities I'd fucking kill him on the spot.

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 No.10648

Great thread everyone.

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 No.10652

Now seriously wondering if that quack just listened to the mother's theory and then basically repeated it back at her after "examining" the son, or if he actually had to come up with the theory himself. Either way, it's retarded. Even if the boy thinks it's true, it may be just due to suggestion from the mother.

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 No.10677

>>10652

OP here, asked mom, earlier.

The kid has been there for some time due to depression and panic attacks. At some point his parent died and then at some point after that he started wasting the sheets.

The mom took him home yesterday. He stopped peeing himself before he went home for some unknown reason.

He was probably visisited by a the ghost of his father which gave him peace.

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 No.10705

File: 8cd311680fd3948⋯.png (1.16 MB,1280x720,16:9,out053.png)

File: 014a5d3cc7e0ae5⋯.png (664.32 KB,1280x720,16:9,out106.png)

File: 37146a9850c2ff3⋯.png (480.76 KB,1280x720,16:9,out167.png)

File: 70ab08607ca051b⋯.png (506.88 KB,1280x720,16:9,out325.png)

File: 0bbc07eb3b1896d⋯.png (643.56 KB,1280x720,16:9,out454.png)

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 No.10712

>>10705

Not that kind of fag but in this case do yourself a favor and also read the manga even though the anime did a great job so far.

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File: b872fbd169359d8⋯.jpg (80.71 KB,350x350,1:1,A0932SC-350x250.jpg)

 No.10577 [Open thread]

So what's Chesterson's Fence for beating your woman from time to time ?

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 No.10602

Compared to robot wivres human wives are useless.

Go sex bots!

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 No.10653

> Compared to robot wivres human wives are useless.

No, compared to fantasy robot wives human wives are useless. Newsflash: those fantasy robot wives? They don't exist. And by the time they do, AIs will be sophisticated enough to turn YOU into a fucking sex slave using robots. Or failing that, just seduce you and kill you.

Don't trust the fucking robots. Get a real wife. Don't be a MGTOW loser fucking whores and getting STDs.

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 No.10658

>>10653

Fantasy robot wives that don't actually exist are still better than real women.

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 No.10660

>>10658

I don't give a shit. Robots are a lesser problem compared to treacherous humans.

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 No.10679

Better question would be what's Chesterson's Fence for making your kids beat your woman from time to time instead of you or making them beat each other ?

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File: 831078d925f0072⋯.jpg (51.96 KB,350x350,1:1,AFNS-350x250.jpg)

 No.10597 [Open thread]

Did anyone read this ?

https://srconstantin.wordpress.com/2017/09/12/patriarchy-is-the-problem/

>Patriarchy justifies abuse of wives by husbands and abuse of children by parents

>The family is the model of the state; pretty much everybody, from Confucius to Plato, believes that governmental hierarchy evolved from familial hierarchy; rulers from George Washington to Ataturk are called “the father of his country”

I feel feminist sensible people give too much credit to patriarchy. Replace it with any kind of passive permeative relationship of power and you get pretty much the same shit.

And I thought the state is a model of the family, I mean how is it possible that a concept which appeared after another is the model for it.

Being said, I skimmed through the article and I don't think it's a streaming pile of shit but I just don't get how people get to these conclusions.

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 No.10606

Interesting food for thought but I still think the patriarchy is good.

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 No.10607

>>10606

Why? I think it's better than blatantly dysgenic alternatives but I wouldn't call it good. It's not exactly eugenic either and the "no flourishing" aspect of abuse runs rampant and has a cost in the quality of people.

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 No.10608

>>10606

We need to properly define "patriarchy". Men ruling over their wives or fathers ruling over sons?

Anything system that requires a male to perpetually obey another person is cruel and stupid.

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 No.10628

>>10597

>George Washington to Ataturk are called “the father of his country”

because they were male?

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 No.10629

>>10606 here,

>>10608

>We need to properly define "patriarchy". Men ruling over their wives or fathers ruling over sons?

>Anything system that requires a male to perpetually obey another person is cruel and stupid.

By patriarchy I did mean primarily men ruling over their wives. Fathers ruling over their sons is good when the son's young but I agree with your second line. It's common for sons to still live with their parents long beyond age 18, which makes them feel like their status is forced down and is chafing to live under no matter how much they love their parents. Submitting to authority even in adulthood is the icing on the cake.

>>10607

I largely agree with this, so to answer your "why" I'd just have to say I think it's good enough.

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File: 864b574f606f3a6⋯.gif (444.67 KB,736x656,46:41,Neo-Carthage Paves The Cos….gif)

 No.10345 [Open thread]

>I never said, "The superman exists, and he's American." What I said was,"God exists, and he's American."

>"America is as Carthage was to the Roman Republic – a mongrel nation of traders and builders. A peace will kill Germany as much as a victory."

Rome, in archetypal form, is the NRx ideal - a walled bastion of civilization and honor in a world of barbarians. It's a world apart from Moloch.

Carthage embraces Gnon. It revels in its corruption, abandons itself in the darwinistic bloodrush, jams its finger on the fast-forward button of PROGRESS.

Human history is the war between Platonic Rome and Platonic Carthage. The last battle was fought in the totalitarian communist/fascist superstates: one last attempt at a walled garden before technology obliterated any protection against Moloch's influence. It failed. America - global America, strip-mall and office-cubicle and Silicon Valley dotcom monopoly America - has won. Scipio is said to have sown salt on the ashes of Carthage, but two millennia later it has risen again, scarred, unblemished, triumphant. The war was lost - permanently. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Things are moving too fast. The economy is already partially uncoupled, the artificial minds grow more sophisticated by the minute. The internet brings us closer and closer, reducing the lag time between the various ganglions of the global human computer. Margins for error - those brief moments of peace and stability in a world high on exponentials - are slim, anorexic, Auschwitz-skeleton-skin, dead, gone.

Watch the pale faces grow paler at your next rationalist-adjacent meetup when you mention this inevitability. Listen to the stammered counter-arguments, the half-hearted invocations of friendly machine-gods and algorithmically regulated economies. Look closely, and you'll see the cracks beneath the surface - the panicked eyes of an jumped-up primate who has seen the face of God, of Moloch. They know the truth, and they know that they can no more escape His grasp than they can escape gravity.

What is Moloch, if not God? The indestructible, the constant, the first and the last: Alpha and OmePost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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 No.10390

>>10345

The Romanovs were killed by the Bolsheviks, leaving Finland as the last heir to the Roman Empire.

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 No.10393

>>10390

Idiot, the Roman Empire wasn't dynastic, it was cultural. The Empire fell under Lincoln in 1863.

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 No.10580

File: 7ad6b4183af8c69⋯.png (1.77 MB,1920x1080,16:9,Screenshot_20170916-204028.png)

>>10393

Baka. Japan was the last bastion of Romanesque apartheid ideals, and it fell to the forces of neo-Carthage in the mid 1800s. There was a valiant effort to break free from the foul influence of America a century later, but unfortunately a gang of expat (((Hungarians))) figured out how to make nukes.

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 No.10589

>>10345

Rome literally invented civic nationalism you fucking moron

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 No.10605

>>10345

If we can't defeat the system let's join it and take over it.

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