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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)

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Ya'll need Mises.

File: bb5d6e22a873711⋯.jpg (60.99 KB,741x568,741:568,1519224112546.jpg)

 No.98856 [Open thread]

where does /liberty/ stand on individualism and collectivism?

23 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click [Open thread] to view. ____________________________
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 No.100005

>>99994

Isnt it about what has more value?

Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology, or social outlook that emphasizes the moral worth of the individual.

Collectivism is a cultural value that is characterized by emphasis on cohesiveness among individuals and "prioritization of the group over self."

Simple wiki definition ofc, but seems exclusive to me

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 No.100010

>>98864

I think this explains it the best.

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 No.100011

>>99166

>the chan

Oh shit anons, he speaks for the chan!

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 No.100017

>>100005

Value doesn't exist in a vacuum. Both have different values in different contexts.

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 No.100027

>>100017

Well, I get what you mean, I guess the problem arises when it's not voluntary, which seems to be the case more often than not with collectivism.

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File: 80bf1daa846ff5f⋯.jpg (59.8 KB,480x563,480:563,leftypol-marx.jpg)

 No.99693 [Open thread]

Welcome to 8chan, newniggers! I know, since you've discovered this place, you've been trying to find a home for political discussion. Unfortunately, /liberty/ doesn't suit your political views. That's fine. There's a great alternative waiting for you:

>>>/leftypol/

Hope to see you there!

3 posts and 1 image reply omitted. Click [Open thread] to view. ____________________________
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 No.99740

>>99711

It's still an improvement over THIS board.

>>99731

That board is like getting in a fight in a redneck bar that only has three people in it while the bartender suspiciously eyes you with a gun, while this board is like getting in a fight in a gay bar that has ten people in it–five of which are sucking each others' dicks in the bathroom in the back, two are constantly complaining about how shit the place is, and all the while the bartender doesn't give a shit about what's going on.

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 No.99741

File: 61e62849f204f51⋯.png (32.03 KB,309x500,309:500,TyrannosaurusRex.png)

>>99740

Dude, for the hundredth time, insults lose their punch when they get too convoluted! I had to read this twice before I could be offended.

Pic unrelated, but nice to look at.

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 No.99748

Hey /liberty/, don't you guys ever get tired of searching all over the internet for the hottest cuck porn? Come visit >>>/pol/ to find it all in one place!

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 No.99772

>>99740

Yeah there are leftist people here that hate this board and actively work to undermine it, of course well meaning people are a leg up… but that's like being smarter than a nigger, it's not an achievement.

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 No.99989

>>99748

So we can talk fascist fucks that are too retarded to tie their own shoelaces?

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File: d2d49ae6063423b⋯.jpg (17.62 KB,407x406,407:406,1552576254984.jpg)

 No.99614 [Open thread]

When a libertarian decries the minimum wage, they are only focusing on the costs the employers’ face, that is what is seen. However, they fail to notice the unseen, namely that as employees wages are higher, they spend more, hence sales and revenues of a business rises. Minimum wage doesn't create unemployment. The broken window fallacy that the libertarians use so often shows that we could have a minimum wage law. Further the broken window fallacy is retarded because it can apply to the private sector too. If a restaurant owner sets up a restaurant aren't other owners being deprived of rental space? Libertarians also like to say that the public sector cannot create jobs. But they do not realize that the public sector brought the world out of the Great Depression via the military. They also say that there shouldn't be any public spending during a recession but they do not realize that people have less money to spend in the private sector because very few people have jobs.

35 posts and 18 image replies omitted. Click [Open thread] to view. ____________________________
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 No.99803

>>99790

>discord

Still, thanks anon.

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 No.99903

>>99790

that link doesn't work anon

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 No.99954

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 No.99956

>>99954

shit, thanks

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 No.99982

>>99756

>Philosophy PhD

In my experience, these guys are just as bad as Marxists, because they just start arguing semantics as soon as they get cornered in an argument.

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File: 7187692688536df⋯.png (4.97 KB,220x80,11:4,uhmzog.png)

File: ec6b62ec8a4fed8⋯.png (1021.51 KB,720x868,180:217,kobayashi41.png)

 No.98413 [Open thread]

Sometimes I wonder whether it would be a good idea to go onto commie forums, pretend I was communist, but then troll them by attacking the in-group by saying that they are not communist enough. Just try to get ideological opponents to falter by making them accelerate to the most extreme possible opinions possible. Just destroy any modicum of moderate political opinions that the left have.

I kind of feel like this has already been going on without my doing anything anyways.

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 No.99575

File: cad338b2c3b340c⋯.jpg (48.88 KB,720x709,720:709,Commies and economics.jpg)

>>98413

>I kind of feel like this has already been going on without my doing anything anyways.

Realistically so, communists tend to do this by themselves because of the many fuck-up variations of socialism that exist as is, Ju-che, ancom, demsocs, etc etc. It's already a bunch of fragmented retards screaming at each other. What you're essentially doing is just what they've already been doing to themselves.

I mean if you want to run 24 hr ops like that, go ahead but commies are already fragmented to high hell as it is.

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 No.99578

File: 2acd424d9c9aebd⋯.png (191.22 KB,392x336,7:6,2acd424d9c9aebd85a658352b1….png)

>>99559

>It's shown me it was a bullshit idea to possibly think

>Three days after when very little has happened yet

Anon, we're just getting started.

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 No.99579

You Nazis ARE commies lol

National Socialism is still a form of socialism you fucking idiots

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 No.99580

>>99579

Who are you responding to?

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 No.99965

>>99580

He must think this is /pol/ lol

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File: 04f834711a24c1f⋯.jpg (702.26 KB,1500x1125,4:3,Jackson-Portrait (1).jpg)

 No.99934 [Open thread]

after studying economic history I can see that a central bank is needed. When Andrew Jackson ended the central bank and implemented a "hard money" policy he caused a huge depression.

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 No.99946

>>99934

A huge depression, known as the slow depression, where growth averaged 7-10% per year once you correct for deflationary pressure.

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 No.99948

>>99944

in the states there's no law saying you can't use anything else for a voluntary exchange.

Milton Friedman even had this critique of Hayek's writings on monetary policy

>Hayek's writings of the 1970s on monetary reform. Noting Hayek's vigorous defense of "invisible hand" evolution that Hayek claimed has created better economic institutions than could be created by rational design, Friedman pointed out the irony that Hayek was then proposing to replace the monetary system thus created with a deliberate construct of his own design. Moreover, Friedman noted, there is nothing in current law to prevent voluntary bilateral exchange via any medium freely accepted by two parties.

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 No.99949

>>99948

>nothing in current law to prevent voluntary bilateral exchange via any medium freely accepted by two parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_dollar_%28private_currency%29#Legal_issues

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 No.99951

>>99949

Also, legal tender laws and capital gains taxes against commodities (like gold/silver) is the standard argument taken, but I wanted to show a concrete case of how there definitely is legal issues. Similar issues happened to a private currency in Florida (Cruz, I believe was his name), and to a few online gold banks that used to be operating ten or twenty years ago. There are plenty of legal issues. The U.S. government does NOT want these to start up.

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 No.99959

>>99944

>but in the constitution I would prohibit the State from making people use the notes issued by the central bank/government.

And as we all know, no government would ever dare overstep the limits placed on them by their constitution (or worse yet, ignore the constitution entirely). It's literally impossible for such a thing to happen.

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File: e3370fbf8d11eae⋯.jpg (238.34 KB,630x883,630:883,rolf harris.jpg)

 No.99852 [Open thread]

REMINDER THAT ROLF HARRIS IS INNOCENT

>Rolf Harris: Why We Know He Is Innocent.

https://www.rolfharrisisinnocent.com/

>Rolf Harris should have been given a retrial.

http://barristerblogger.com/2017/11/19/rolf-harris-given-retrial/

>Rolf Harris and the case of the sleeping Metropolitan Policeman: Bias and Unfairness in the Rolf Harris Trial

https://rationalthoughtprocess.wordpress.com/2017/09/01/rolf-harris-and-the-case-of-the-sleeping-metropolitan-policeman-bias-and-unfairness-in-the-rolf-harris-trial/

>Rolf Harris - Beyond reasonable doubt?

https://misesuk.org/2014/07/05/rolf-harris-beyond-reasonable-doubt-2-attachments/

>Rolf Harris is a victim of a heinous conspiracy.

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2017/01/25/rolf-harris-is-a-victim-of-heinous-conspiracy/

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 No.99888

How do they prove such allegations when the supposed acts occurred decades ago?

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File: 677a2ac67ce50dd⋯.png (85.71 KB,650x336,325:168,United_Kingdom_unemploymen….png)

 No.99799 [Open thread]

Under Thatcher the free market Prime Minister the unemployment rates skyrocketed. Gee I wonder why? is it because she was opposed to government spending??!

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 No.99849

>>99812

because the government was bankrupt you idiot

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 No.99850

>>99849

then why weren't private sector jobs create

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 No.99853

>>99850

because those jobs were useless in the first place

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 No.99886

She was a fucking moron, who trashed strategic industries, created misery for the fun of it, hated govt spending but ran huge deficits anyway - despite running into a ton of oil and selling everything that wasn't nailed down, and kicking off a process of financialization that has landed the UK with some of the biggest debts, most overvalued property, and most over-leveraged banks in the world. Just an all round disaster. Never, ever, let a woman run a country.

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 No.99887

File: 62780b1b0a105eb⋯.png (108.25 KB,500x372,125:93,government-spending-real-1….png)

There was an overall net increase in public and welfare expenditure during Thatcher's term. How can one consider this "deregulatory" or "pro free market"?

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File: c04b120df2781b6⋯.jpg (164.93 KB,750x885,50:59,welcome.jpg)

 No.99857 [Open thread]

BO, I know you lurk here at least occasionally. I've learned to appreciate the hands-off moderation, but could we please change the image in the stickied post to be something other than that political compass? You have DemSoc and honest-to-God statism listed in the "welcome" zone. Neither of those, and arguably nothing in the bottom-left quadrant, belong in the welcome zone.

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 No.99876

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 No.99877

>>99876

>>>/larpaganism/

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 No.99881

>>99857

Hey, i remember the very same thread with this very picture long ago.

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 No.99882

>>99881

There was a similar but not identical threat a while back. If I recall correctly, OP was bitching about the BO's moderation policy rather than the sticky.

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 No.99883

File: a55352dd2035a7d⋯.jpg (68.93 KB,564x397,564:397,Hoppe_on_immigration.jpg)

>>99861

It's a symbol against white genocide

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File: e9afc496be95e74⋯.jpg (1.35 MB,2000x3334,1000:1667,same.jpg)

 No.98500 [Open thread]

Socialists:

>profit is theft

>profit is unearned wages

Libertarians:

>taxation is theft

>taxes are unearned wages

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 No.98507

>>98500

>I want to stop giving profit to X

<stop buying from/working for X

>I want to stop paying taxes

<put in cage, dog killed by ATF

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 No.98517

what is profit?

profit is revenue minus expenses, where expenses are all expenses. sometimes some expenses are hidden, such as the owner of a business not including his wages in his calculation because, to him, all his profits and all his wages are the same (money in his pocket). some argue that in an efficient business, there would be no profit, because the price would be just above the cost, so the revenue would be just above expenses. however, if the transaction was agreed to voluntarily by each effected party, and each involved party was well informed, then each party benefited, or at least was not harmed, by the transaction occurring. if no-one would benefit, then there's no point in expending effort trying to make a change, so the effect must be net positive. if there's a positive, that means there was more benefit than cost, which means there is profit. where does the profit go? what's the fair way to distribute the profit? if only some parties get all the profit, then it's unfair, because they'll have a disproportionate increase in capital power. whether it's the employees, or the business owners, or the customers (as in the above example), or whoever else, is not important (though mitigation strategies may depend on who unfairly benefits). what i think makes sense is for some part of the profits being distributed among everyone equally as contributing to a sort of universal basic income (how much of the profits will go to this? this needs to be decided), and the rest to be distributed proportionate to how much each party contributed to the project (how is it decided how much one contributed to the project? this is a question that needs to be answered). the safety net is there without deterring the incentives, which are also there.

it's not the profit that is theft, it's the unfair distribution of profit that some people force on others which is akin to theft.

libertarians are against theft, because they are against violence (though some exclude violence which is 'necessary' to ensure restitution is completed), and theft (misappropriation) is a form of property violence. taxes are also a form of property violence, where the government uses coercion (credible threats) to scare you into paying, and if you don't, they 'make good', so to speak, on their threats by jailing you and forcibly appropriating (which is a form of misapproprPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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 No.98526

File: 0d1cfcde62f2780⋯.jpg (71.76 KB,680x680,1:1,f54.jpg)

>>98500

Socialists:

>breathe

>drink water

Libertarians:

>breathe

>drink water

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 No.99878

GR8 b8 m8

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 No.99879

>>99878

>bumping this shit thread

kys

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YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

 No.99782 [Open thread]

>That moment when Gray realizes that Anarchy is good for business

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 No.99860

That game looks fun, gonna give it a try.

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 No.99867

>>99789

I don't get it. What's the context for this?

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 No.99868

File: d738d9f74b7ddf7⋯.png (912.38 KB,674x960,337:480,ClipboardImage.png)

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 No.99869

File: 6371ebb8f1f6b39⋯.jpg (242.41 KB,700x553,100:79,scaled_full_c4da6df5609a8d….jpg)

File: 4f6ed1b0e984f3d⋯.jpg (34.56 KB,640x356,160:89,3lSpqUP.jpg)

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 No.99870

>>99867

Left coast states have banned plastic straws.

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File: 50ff49c938f4bfa⋯.jpg (93.61 KB,718x960,359:480,muslims.jpg)

 No.99573 [Open thread]

I think one of the limits to liberty is believing in philosophical systems that run contrary to liberty.

If you, as a libertarian, want to invite muslims into your country… you are fucking retarded and probably not a libertarian.

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 No.99796

>>99781

>They are not any more committed than Christians.

Just to play devil's advocate, the autist has somewhat of a point here, especially when you consider you have something of a sampling bias (you're speaking to Muslims that live and/or grew up in the West). There are a good few moderate, Westernized kebabs in the West, yes. However, the statistics do show that a far greater proportion of non-extremist Muslims have either support or sympathy for terrorist groups compared to the proportion of non-extremist Christians that support violent or terrorist Christians. Even in "moderate" countries like Turkey, surveys show upwards of 40% of the moderates there supported Al-Qaeda.

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 No.99813

>>99573

It’s a mix of appeal to hypocrisy and the Chinese robber fallacy.

Terrorism is bad regardless of who does it. Muh Christians or muh Muslims doesn’t matter that much because while there may be 463 attacks by Muslims, there’s still around a billion and a half Muslims who aren’t terrorists.

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 No.99831

>>99778

Beliefs "core to your identity" can and do change as well. People don't spring fully-formed commies from the womb, they need years of molding in the public schools before their worldviews shift.

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 No.99854

>>99813

The muslim problem is similar to the jew problem; most don't actually do the dirty work but they don't speak against it either, and some actually encourage it, to the delight of the actual perpetrators of the crimes, who can enjoy from that tribal protection and claim to be a victim when the inevitable backlash happens. You can't say they're outright criminals but you also can't say they're totally innocent either. Of course it doesn't justify some random shooting but you can see why someone would be baited into doing that assuming it wasn't just a false flag which it probably was

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 No.99862

>>99854

what dont jews speak against?

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File: ba2d897b6847a95⋯.png (24.05 KB,657x525,219:175,1552874697574.png)

 No.99736 [Open thread]

If one wants to understand economics from the point of view of austrian ther eis the Tom Woods Show, mises.org, PFS, ecc

What about other school of thought? In particular I'm curious about the chicago school. Is there an equivalent of mises.org or the others are cool enough that can just survive in academia?

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 No.99745

>>99739

>Also priori arguments don't cut it.

But that is itself an a priori statement, not a positivist one :^)

It's impossible to attempt to refute a priori reasoning without using multiple a priori arguments yourself; by the very act of dismissing the conceptual approach you only affirm its validity.

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 No.99746

>>99743

>because they can be disproven via empirical evidence and it sounds as schizophrenic and Keynes.

They cannot be. A priori arguments, if they are logically sound, are by definition correct, and cannot be disproven by any occurence. To say that empirical evidence has disproven marginal utility is like saying that a triangle was discovered that shows Pythagoras' Theorem to be wrong.

A priori arguments still are not infallible. If you find independent reason to discard them, then you can do so. Empirical evidence, no matter how overwhelming it seems, is at best a reasonable incentive to look at what is wrong with the a priori argument. In this context, it is important to remember that there is only one reality. There can never be a genuine conflict between properly interpreted empirical evidence and logically valid a priori argumentation.

Another way to look at it is this: Every observation must be interpreted in the light of what we know without any observation. For example, the scientific method relies on experimentation, but for experiments to be meaningful, causality must be real. The validity of experimentation stands and falls with causality. Likewise, to make sense of economic data, you require a knowledge of economic laws. Otherwise, you rely on implicit laws.

As for your infopic, I'll leave that to someone else, for now, unless I find something striking in it.

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 No.99747

>>99743

So, I looked at Friedmans graphs. I found this sentence striking:

>booms do not tend to cause recession of equal intensity, which is what would be required by the ABCT and similar business cycles

Honestly, why would they be equal? GNP is not a direct measure of wealth. For one, even blatantly unproductive transactions drive it up. Expenses by the state enter it at their nominal value, even if they were a mistake from a financial standpoint. That is for one. Meanwhile, services that clearly have value, but one that isn't expressed in monetary terms, do not enter it. It is not a perfect representation of the state of the economy. To treat it as such is wishful thinking.

Furthermore, there are, at any given moment, millions of factors driving GNP up or down. The same is true of most economic indexes. To expect a proportional relationship between two factors to be visible in the GNP, when millions of factors enter it, is not to know what GNP is.

Now, when I look at figure 1, I can see that every trough is preceeded by a peak. Certainly, the peak is not nearly as prominent, but it's always there.

I'll leave the rest of the interpretation to other anons. Perhaps some that have more of a background in statistical analysis.

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 No.99749

>>99745

>:^)

is this emoticon supposed to show NPC or a Jew?

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 No.99798

>>99749

jesus christ how new are you

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File: 15cf4216c222a15⋯.jpg (16.32 KB,326x326,1:1,cat_reeeeee.jpg)

File: b0184058dd1c0d6⋯.png (27.63 KB,582x481,582:481,pinochet_heartandsoul.png)

 No.99758 [Open thread]

>get banned from ancap discord server for making helicopter memes and "what if the child consent."

Fuck redditors and fuck discord.

3 posts omitted. Click [Open thread] to view. ____________________________
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 No.99763

>>99760

anarchy is the surest way to get your liberties curbed and fast. it's an autistic mess of ideas. it's no different than fascists or communists either.

>da joos

>da white males

>da gubbamin

>da bourgeoisie

the reality of anarchy is chaos. owners shutting down roads, banks stealing your money, property you're not currently living at being taken away, no insurance, no way to ensure your food is safe, no way to ensure the restaurants you eat at are safe, nothing to protect you from fraud, nothing to stop foreign governments from buying property, no car insurance, no infrastructure to recover after damage, your neighbor'a poorly built house will fall on yours, nothing to stop a hoard of migrants, nothing to stop NGOs from bringing in migrants, nothing to stop bank fraud, cities will look like shit because you can build anything you want anywhere, and you guys can't even agree on an age of consent.

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 No.99765

File: ff4802bc0070258⋯.png (430.26 KB,680x680,1:1,1494435830317.png)

>>99763

>no car insurance

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 No.99766

>>99763

>Anarchy means no liberties

>fascists and communists are the same

Are you an unironic Goldilocks republican? Seriously? Or are you just some retarded Monarchist who thinks that ultimate power should be concentrated in the hands of "my beautiful, perfect, noble lord" instead of "My beautiful, perfect, dear Fuhrer"?

Reading your post again it seems you're just a normalfag. How did you even find this board?

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 No.99768

>>99766

I'm starting to notice increased influx of normalfags since that shooting.

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 No.99797

>>99758

Socialists have a right to live. But children also have a right to consent.

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File: 279a975c7a01971⋯.jpg (434.84 KB,2067x1627,2067:1627,claix6sgqa421.jpg)

 No.99785 [Open thread]

What does /liberty/ think of street art? Isn't there something freeing about putting your name on something sacred to a normie for the enjoyment of yourself and those who can appreciate it?

>>>/bench/

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 No.99788

First, 99% of street 'art' is just niggers marking their territory with ugly letters and gang signs.

Second, you have no right to mark others property. If you want to paint a mural on your own building that's fine, if you want to get permission from the property owner that's fine, but it's disgustingly narcissistic to deface and vandalize just because you feel the urge to.

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 No.99791

>>99788

This, pretty much.

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 No.99794

>>99785

street art should be illegal like in singapore

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File: c43037d705fe727⋯.jpg (484.34 KB,1000x853,1000:853,IMG_3447.JPG)

 No.98452 [Open thread]

Fact:

Traditional Marriage as it was practiced before first wave feminism 100+ years ago, was created without the state, across cultures through voluntary social interactions.

We would likely to go back to such a system. The only reason why people still get married is that they mistake and get fooled by civil marriage and think it's real marriage.

In actual fact just having a long-term gf is more real of a marriage, than actually marrying her under state marriage, because it's natural for women to ONLY get your ressources, if they stay with you. You corrupt that and basically create an incentive for women to immideatly leave men, once something is not to their liking, if you marry them.

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 No.99718

>>99717

How do you figure? NEETSocs have no control over the state apparatus and they probably won't anytime soon. Any goons that kick down your door are going to be either commies or the tools of commies.

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 No.99732

>>98452

If it was up to me, the state would get out of marriage, and marriages would henceforth be treated as contracts as far as the state is concerned, modified by religious canons. So if you are married by the Catholic Church, you don't get to divorce. When it's a muslim marriage, the women cannot divorce, but the man can do so unilaterally. And so on.

If it was up to me, everyone married couple would follow the rules of the Catholic Church, but where is the value in enforcing my religious views on what a proper marriage is on couples that do not share these views? If I can tolerate (in the true sense of that word) pagan chicks having open relationships, then I can tolerate muslims marrying five women at once. If they don't subsidize their bullshit, and am not obliged to respect it, then I am good. We live in an imperfect world, after all.

>Traditional Marriage as it was practiced before first wave feminism 100+ years ago, was created without the state, across cultures through voluntary social interactions.

But, anon, which libertarian would not admit that? I suppose left-wing libertarians, but there are very few on this board these days.

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 No.99737

>>98602

>you need to already be married to a woman, and then have another woman join you in your household

That's what it means to you. That's not what it means to him or those people. I always thought it meant "woman who is less legally important than my wife, but one I nevertheless claim".

>>99718

He's worried about Australians showing up and murdering him, I think. Some idiots lately have been saying that.

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 No.99757

>>99737

Nah, the shitposting cunts love me.

>>99718

Commie governments tend to collapse under their own weight anyways, and I'd fall under the special privileged class who gets to live the high life due to my skillsets in a commie government/flee the country when shit hits the fan. NEETSocs (who have a real chance of getting into power in a country that isn't 3rd world status already) when they get into power tend to fuck everything up in the process. Both would point a gun at my head and tell me that work makes me free, but the Commies at least intuitively understand that killing people like me is a quick step towards 3rd world status and give me cushiony living standards and sometimes even a girl to fuck.The Nazis just insist on me doing shit for them (or die) while living in abject poverty in their mockery of an economy that they claim is "booming." The NEETSocs are closer to the Mexican cartels in a lot of ways such as this. By process of elimination, I'd be more likely to point my gun at a NEETSoc invasion than a Commie invasion albeit I'd point my gun at either if I thought I had a winning chance.

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 No.99770

>>99737

>LANGUAGE IS SUBJECTIVE

OK purple monkey dishwasher.

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