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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)

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Ya'll need Mises.
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

 No.102212 [Open thread]

What is the best sources to read/watch regarding free will and determinism? What is your opinion on Destiny's argument in this video?

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 No.102262

<Steven "pedo trannyfucker" Bonnel I and a quarter, self confesed level 2 sociopath, bashed Jontron over a fucking graph

No, thank you, Keep Yourself Safe

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 No.102264

>>102215

>There are people out there who actually believe randomness can exist in a stable system

>These people are capable of making posts to this very board

What the fuck.

But seriously. Reality is deterministic and therefore all things can be predicted with accuracy. Just because you can't doesn't mean it can't be done. This is however, as some flagfriend poster earlier mentioned, irrelevant when concerned with agency. This is what we're primarily concerned with when the subject arises.

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 No.102265

>>102264

our universe is not stable

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 No.102989

>>102212

>What is your opinion on Destiny's argument in this video?

It's bad. He isn't even tackling how libertarians view free will. He's right in saying that there has been an issue with free will and separatism - how do we become free agents in a world without god - but he's not attacking libertarian's view on free will. He's attacking compaitablism, and calling it libertarian's view on free will.

Libertarians follow the concept called the principle of alternative possibilities to link up moral structures to actions: A person is morally responsible for performing a given act only if he could have acted otherwise. To a libertarian, a person could have acted differently, but not as to be purely random or arbitrary. It's founded on the notion that the world is constantly changing, the rules of "the game" are constantly changing, so it's impossible to predict any difinitive end-state. Instead, it's a procedural process of finding out what works and what doesn't work - then re-evaluating along the way.

The most classic example of this is to examine what game theory tries to do, but many times fails: Make people into mechanized computers of if - then statements.

It's also a core problem with his belief that, "If only the rules of the game were clearly defined, would we see smooth outcomes."

We know that simply isn't the case. In fact just the opposite. People have a tenancy to organize things fine without any "clear rules of the game." Society doesn't implode. A person won a nobel prize proving this is the case.

As a counter-example to show how absurd Destiny is:

>Be put into destiny's shoes

>be successful streamer

>claim "he didn't build his success, his community did"

>destiny in the future decides he doesn't want to stream anymore. he wants to do something else in his life.

Is it Destiny's responsibility to make sure everyone who has ever donated to him in his lifetime finds an equal or betterPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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 No.103055

>>102212

>CTRL + F "compatibilism"

>0 results

Is there no hope for this board?

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File: 30831a03fdfcb15⋯.jpg (24.88 KB,500x300,5:3,proxy.duckduckgo.com.jpg)

 No.102665 [Open thread]

Hey /liberty/

So, I know this board is under constant attack, and the mods seem to have given up completely. Therefore, I want to start making quality threads again, regarding Libertarian morality and ideals.

I am a very pro-liberty person, boarding on AnCap. As such, when I engage with the free market, I like to make sure that my priorities are locked in. With that being said, where should we stand, with regard to Google. I constantly see a plethora of disparaging remarks thrown towards Google, due to them recording everything you do, tracking you, etc., from the /tech/ fags. Yet, many /tech/ posters believe in Richard Stallman, and the FOSS movement seems like totalitarian bullshit to me. If you were to follow it, you can only use like 1 browser (icecat or lynx), one OS, and you have to follow all of these tedious rules.

Anyway, here is the conundrum: Google is a free-market company, that offers services you do not have to accept. They are extremely efficient, secure, and good at what they do. On the other hand, they are anti-liberty, and as stated before, they track everything you do. Is it best to avoid Google products? If you use a competitor, that isn't as good, are you still making a Libertarian choice? Do Libertarians/AnCap people need to care about tracking, and how Google uses your data?

The reason I am asking all of this, is because, let's be honest: Google has a total iron grip on the technology world, but they have useful products. If I continue to use Firefox, Protonmail, etc., am I really a free-market advocate anymore? If a monopoly is really awesome and useful, and helps a lot of people, is it really bad? Do I deserve to use products, without having my data tracked/stored?

What do all of you think?

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 No.102922

>>102911

I don't want the intelligence agency to be efficient at what it does, so yes, it would be.

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 No.102925

>>102744

Every business and person “receives” government money, dumbass. The question to determine if something is part of the state is only if it would be insolvent without government support (or is complicit in the state’s major crimes). Carnegie Steel benefited from tariffs, but it was so hugely successful that it would hardly have mattered if it had them or not.

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 No.102949

>>102912

well i agree

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 No.102953

Gonna repeat what already has been said.

Internet couldn't exist in a free market, the infrastructures are there thanks to the State. There is nothing wrong with that, not everything should exist, and maybe internet shouldn't exist in the first place.

Then, on top of this, Google, Facebook, etc got a lot of money and legal privileges, of course they get almost a monopoly on tech.

So you have companies that dominate thanks to the State on an infrastructure created by States.

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 No.102971

>>102953

>only the state can create infrastructure

Literally a muh roads argument

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YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

 No.102885 [Open thread]

Based.

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File: 8d790d58012c474⋯.jpg (921.02 KB,1753x2480,1753:2480,1559159700365.jpg)

 No.102609 [Open thread]

There's literally nothing wrong with this if the state was uninvolved.

People would gravitate towards the rating system that proves the most trustworthy, which would also tend to be the more transparent ones that have better selection criteria.

Just like now with Airbnb as an example, I could choose to deal with a less reputable person at a lower price. Win win.

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 No.102762

>>102757

Ok, here's me trying harder

The murders of the Inquisition, the murders of the counter Reformation, and the murders of native foreigners in early Catholic colonialism are antithetical to the Bible's foundational moral code in the decalogue, "thou shalt not kill".

These actions were justified by the Roman church because it was corrupted, especially in the realm of statism.

Christianity is best defined by what the Bible says, since it is the source document. The Bible is opposed to the behaviors we talked about.

Therefore:

Catholics are not Christian

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 No.102765

>>102762

"Catholic colonialism"

most of the early settlers were Puritans, i.e., Protestants.

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 No.102766

>>102726

people can gravitate towards muh ego dik

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 No.102771

>>102765

I know, and they were supremely moral compared to Catholic colonizers in Latin America and elsewhere. Pennsylvania was explicitly purchased because those Protestants has a clear conception of land rights.

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 No.102833

>>102771

Catholics did feudalism, sure, but Prots did ethnic cleansing.

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HookTube embed. Click on thumbnail to play.

 No.102716 [Open thread]

I remember playing this game when it came out nearly two decades ago now. When I first played it, I did not really understand the plot or what was going on. It laid on a shelf for decades, and recently, things calmed down in my life, and I've had some time. So, I went back to play it again.

Jesus H Christ, why didn't I listen to any of this decades ago? WHY DIDN'T I LISTEN?! WHY DO I NOT REMEMBER ANY OF THIS?! Was I really so stupid that when someone was directly telling me the truth about what was going on that I just laughed it off as "simulation, lol?" This is so spot-on it's insane. I'm sure this has been talked about to death, but dear lord, this is so fucking prescient it makes me think that Kojima really was outright telling the truth here, or that it's at least low-level predictive programming.

Anyways, I'm going to play through this game and let Solidus win this time. If that ends the game with a bad end. Fine. I'll shut the console off and have my closure.

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 No.102803

>>102716

One thing that really annoys me about this game is that everyone on all sides of the political landscape praise it for being so prophetic, yet they are all guilty of doing the exact thing the game was warning against (especially left wingers)

No one hardly ever challanges their ideas, they just take up some contrived political take as a replacement for a personality and huddle around like minded people in their own bubbles and just keep blowing smoke up each others asses which only makes them worse and worse. To be a truly healthy person, you need to play devils advocate and realize you dont really know shit and realize you can learn different things from different people. Or in other words, just be open minded, which is something every jackass says but very few practice, again, mostly leftist.

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 No.102811

>>102803

Challenge your perception of capitalism then

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 No.102824

>>102811

/liberty/ is already /leftypol/'s shitposting toilet.

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 No.102825

>>102811

I do. I dont worship capitalism as some god. people who view economic systems as such are stupid.

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 No.102826

File: 8fd46ceb22766fa⋯.jpg (244.85 KB,818x614,409:307,liberty.jpg)

>>102824

/liberty/ is my shitposting toilet.

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File: 25fcf3f3446d42c⋯.png (47.05 KB,808x1024,101:128,ob_53c884_bakunin-1.png)

 No.100543 [Open thread]

The workers organise their own production like Bakounin 's collectivism but there is a state to tax and provide essential public services. I just came up with that idea, would that work?

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 No.102761

>>102646

>what are Monopsonies and Natural Monopolies?

Unproven hypothetical scenarios used to justify government interventionism and irrelevant to the discussion unless you're literally glued to a spot in the ground.

>what is determinism and the free will impossibility?

Also irrelevant to the discussion.

>>102629

>The electorate gains by land reform and the expansion of the dole.

>But you mentioned earlier that the enfranchised will not vote for the dilution of their power. So what is it?

You answered your own question. The electorate voted for land reform and the grain dole, not the expansion of the franchise.

In fact, the younger Gracchus got murdered by a rabid mob (the electorate) when he expanded the franchise.

The electorate fought to keep the franchise limited. You can't get elected by an electorate that can't vote.

>Slavery is an inefficient system because slaves lack the monetary incentives of free labor.

Tell that to the millionaire plantation owners of the antebellum south. Slavery is inefficient overall, but very profitable to the slaveowners.

I mean why do you think it existed for so bloody long as an institution?

>Probably nothing, but I am also against monarchy.

I said

<The only governments which have effectively kept the state from growing are republics where the franchise is restricted to property owners, which makes sense in terms of incentives.

<I'm not saying it's not degenerate (all states are) , I'm just saying it's better than giving one random cunt all the power and hoping he isn't a Machiavelli.

I would rather have no state at all, but out of all the states that have existed in history, I believe the ones wherPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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 No.102763

>>102761

>have proven to provide

have provided

I'm too tired for this shit

>>102619

Let me tell you where I'm coming from so we can stop talking about minutiae and look at the bigger picture.

I believe the defining characteristic which determines how free a society is has nothing to do with voting itself, but rather with the relationship between producers and consumers of a single good:

Rights enforcement.

The monopolisation of the production of this good, most commonly done by the state, will inevitably result in tyranny. The larger the state (both in physical terms such as land or population, and in terms of the presence of statist thinking in the minds of the members of the society), the more complete its monopoly and the faster the tyranny will progress. Therefore, in choosing which kind of state is the least predisposed to tyranny, I ask myself two questions:

1) Does the structure of belief which allows the state to justify its own existence lead to totalitarian modes of thinking?

2) Is the production of rights enforcement solely the purview of the state in this society?

The first question is fundamentally about ideology; the second is fundamentally about economics. Since I am not a Marxist and therefore not retarded, I know that economics follows from belief and physical circumstance. Since we cannot control the physical circumstances of the world, it is safe to ignore them for the purposes of this discussion. We can therefore pare down these two questions down into a more fundamental one:

Who do the people believe produces the enforcement of rights?

In a citizen-soldier republic the people believe they are the producers of their own rights, and the state is relegated to the position of a coordinator.

The popular militia, in this frameworPost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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 No.102792

> The electorate voted for land reform and the grain dole, not the expansion of the franchise.

The electorate essentially voted for both by voting for the officials that did both.

> the younger Gracchus got murdered by a rabid mob (the electorate)

He committed suicide, and he was not chased by a mob but by Opimius’ men.

> Slavery is inefficient overall, but very profitable to the slaveowners.

Plantations were profitable (not really that profitable in antebellum South since Washington and Jefferson had to rely on rents to sustain their income) due to legislation favoring slavery. It was the large land grants from the state that made them profitable, not slaves. Tobacco crops required large landholdings to counteract nutrient depreciation.

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 No.102793

>>102792

I forgot your (You): >>102792

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 No.102794

>>102792

I forgot your (You): >>102761

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File: 60b5f8f0f82ad67⋯.jpg (77.06 KB,1161x653,1161:653,seastead.jpg)

 No.101408 [Open thread]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-19/libertarian-seasteaders-facing-execution-thailand-charges-violating-national

http://archive.is/u9tYY

>Despite its location just outside of Thailand's territorial waters, leaving it outside the reach of the country's laws according to international maritime law, the world's second "seastead" was raided by Thai police earlier this week as the country's military-dominated government pressed charges of violating national sovereignty against the two bitcoin enthusiasts who had lived there.

>The couple, Chad Elwartowski and his partner Supranee Thepdet, who goes by Nadia, could face life in prison or a death sentence in a Thai court if they are caught and formally charged. The two had sought to be pioneers in the seasteading movement, which advocates building structures anchored in international waters to allow people to live outside the control of governments and their laws.

>Thai authorities revoked Elwartowski's visa and said they would destroy the seastead within a week. The crackdown has dashed the couple's plans to build 'underwater restaurants' and 'floating hotels' to Phuket.

>But Thailand's navy said the couple's outpost still endangered national sovereignty, charging them with article 119 of the Thai Criminal Code, an offense punishable by life imprisonment or death.

>Build a 6m box floating in the middle of the fucking ocean

>Potentially get the death penalty for an offense as nebulous as "endangering national sovereignty"

Gee, I wonder why they wanted to move to the middle of the ocean? Seems to me "recreational nukes" will be an important prerequisite for establishing a free society in a den of tyrannical governments.

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 No.102318

>>102152

They used to but they don’t sink the boats or anything outside of the line. If they are concerned then they will just check out to see if someone needs help or other reasons. If the idiots build their home near Australia then there is a chance that the Thai military won’t go near them. Bloody morons.

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 No.102548

You can buy floating home for $150,000 from Ocean builders.

https://ocean.builders/purchase/

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 No.102601

<people are going to die

How is that a bad thing?

>>101417

Call Peter Thiel, he sure will give a fuck about justice in Thailand.

>101417

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 No.102769

MUH BOAT MUH PROPERTY.

this is funny af though

fuck da police.

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 No.102788

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

They should have hire the private military contractors to protect their aqua castle. Like other anon said, build the aqua castle close to Australia. Australia is laid back and Aussies are happy to trade with the Seasteaders.

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File: 8316f042a35369e⋯.jpg (65.89 KB,890x876,445:438,pol kulka.jpg)

File: cba4021fefddb3c⋯.jpg (49.6 KB,500x650,10:13,wwc.jpg)

File: 5ce7fdef5fa8794⋯.jpg (128.37 KB,874x1086,437:543,1481941186001.jpg)

File: dfc86cf99ccfba8⋯.jpg (36.96 KB,600x509,600:509,dfc86cf99ccfba8160a9a00c40….jpg)

 No.102167 [Open thread]

lets have this thread

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 No.102713

File: dda0faeac621290⋯.jpg (71.16 KB,547x402,547:402,kapitalizm dobry.jpg)

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 No.102717

>>102167

Hitler was right about what?

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 No.102723

>>102717

Racialism, I guess. Funny thing is, the new right wing regimes are looking to be about as interventionist as the left wing ones.

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 No.102759

>>102723

he thought jews are untermenschen

it is the opposite way

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 No.102775

File: 106e51f7d2dc6f8⋯.png (210.45 KB,500x775,20:31,ipoli-true-pol-also-known-….png)

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File: 8d6e39f32efb7c7⋯.webm (7.61 MB,640x360,16:9,1504866203693089075.webm)

 No.102635 [Open thread]

allegedly mrs may was recently in india and she wanted to make free trade agreement with india but their president said that he can agree only if all indians get visa-free entrance to the uk

is not indian president afraid of losing taxpayers?

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 No.102724

>>102685

>liberalize the Indian economy

Remember that time they demonetised low denomination currency in order to "curtail illegal activity"?

Maybe Africa will be the next global superpower.

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 No.102732

>>102724

i dont

t. another anon

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 No.102737

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>102724

>Maybe Africa will be the next global superpower.

They probably will.

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 No.102745

>>102724

Isn't it the other way around? The psjeets stopped circulating high denomination bills because muh drug dealers laundering money.

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 No.102746

>>102745

I think you're right; I misremembered and erroneously assumed that a 500 rupee bill worth 7 USD would be a low denomination.

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File: 38e3af9db061bb2⋯.jpg (24.39 KB,512x398,256:199,ch.jpg)

 No.102667 [Open thread]

Why was the US unable to resist central government?

They could have shown the world the possibility of enlightened de-centralism.

Diverse and beautiful local cultures, with a central government divorced from them all, to serve as their protector.

That way nationalism doesnt get too fierce, or corrode the local cultures, but the local cultures are still protected, and to some extent supported by the centre.

'What went wrong?'

____________________________
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 No.102684

Fabianism is remarkably effective. My evidence will be the replies to this thread that all purport wildly different causes (the Civil War, the FED, the income tax, the military-industrial complex, etc., etc.).

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 No.102702

File: 3db3308b893cb3d⋯.png (638.43 KB,597x467,597:467,ClipboardImage.png)

>>102667

>resist central government

>get your major cities burnt down by Yankee scum

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 No.102703

>>102667

>Why was the US unable to resist central government?

Because it had a central governmental at all. Minarchist states will never say that way for long, because it is in the nature of every government to grow.

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 No.102714

>>102702

This

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File: a9b270cf40c35a6⋯.jpg (8.71 KB,300x207,100:69,192627-004-E20A8593.jpg)

 No.102030 [Open thread]

Using Austrian school economics instead of Chicago school?

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 No.102569

File: bc7068cce497e1c⋯.jpg (345.99 KB,800x540,40:27,gensler-cities-2050.jpg)

>>102126

i once had a dream i was in a massive city on an island with huge glass skyscrapers and millions of people, and a huge airport full of people and restaurants, but the people spoke a language I didn't understand (at the time). sometimes I like to think it might have been Havana in an alternate reality where Cuba was capitalist.

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 No.102570

>>102569

I was referring as Chile taking the same place of gommie Cuba in the libertarian movement, as the big example of how to destroy the statist elite and build and strongarm a country towards an Ancap society and Pinochet being less than a meme and more of Goldcoated Fidel Castro.

But yeah, that's how I also imagine Cuba if weren't turned into the Jail-island is now.

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 No.102589

>>102569

it was a singapore

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 No.102626

>>102589

>singapore

>libertarian

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 No.102712

>>102626

singapore is based

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File: 4fa12bfb5bb39d6⋯.jpg (47.58 KB,550x413,550:413,1485041047977789010.jpg)

 No.102531 [Open thread]

please recommend me nice 8ch boards

4 postsomitted. Click reply to view. ____________________________
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 No.102567

>>102566

KEK

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 No.102571

>>102556

/k/ here was coopted by NEETsocs, a shadow of his former glory.

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 No.102574

>>102571

The NEETSocs are an inescapable presence, but they're far from all-encompassing on 8/k/. The real menace is noguns Europoors. But despite the presence of both, every time I glance at half/k/ out of morbid curiosity, I'm reminded that as shit as our /k/ is every alternative is far worse.

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 No.102575

>>102571

NEETsocs are the furries of imageboards. Let a few in and soon you'll have a horde scream about fursecution teh jeeews.

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 No.102625

>>>/leftypol/

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File: 1a871180bdca71c⋯.jpg (84.98 KB,672x371,96:53,hugecomputer.jpg)

 No.102551 [Open thread]

<Goddam antiestablishmentarians. Let's just ban antiestablishment speech.

>First amendment gets in the way.

<Fuck. Maybe we can get some sort of wartime justification.

>Espionage Act of 1917 gets upheld.

<Alright, at least we got that, but I'm envious of how good the U.K. is at controlling their media. Maybe we can regulate the media to encourage them into a few megacorps to at least simplify things.

>FCC established.

<Well, that worked well, maybe now we can covertly control them with spies and blackmail?

>Operation Mockingbird and COINTELPRO gets found out.

<Well fuck, we can wait until people forget about this and then try again.

>Internet comes around.

<Hm, this is going to get out of hand if we let this go. I know, let's covertly fund a few DARPA projects so we can make and control our own megacorps from the start!

>Start "LifeLog" and cancel it the same day Facebook starts up.

>Slush fund the fuck out of Google/Amazon/etc..

<Well shit, subsidizing the media directly under the guise of military projects is working a lot better than when we tried to do it surreptitiously under the CIA. Let's formalize this arrangement.

>Pass Smith-Mundt Modernization Act of 2012.

>Continue directly funding FANG.

<Hm, it looks like 12 people are trying to make an alternative to this stuff. Let's squash that right away.

>Covertly tell the two existing payment processing megacorps to squash your opponents.

How accurate is my history of the past 100 years, /liberty/?

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 No.102593

File: 0f008108a8826c7⋯.png (222.36 KB,1791x473,1791:473,liberty anon explains Deep….PNG)

>>102582

I screencapped it for posterity. Its really good stuff.

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 No.102594

>>102582

>1st column: FBI, J Edgar Hoover, and then descriptions of COINTELPRO, how the FBI has the ability to blackmail anyone in the U.S. and Hoover supposedly intimidated sitting U.S. Presidents ( https://www.britannica.com/biography/J-Edgar-Hoover ). COINTELPRO techniques are still in use to this very day

Reminds me of how the KGB took over the USSR. Technically, modern Russia is still ruled by a fucking KGB rat.

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 No.102596

>>102582

I need to play that game again. The first time I played it I was so stupidly "WEHHH, I DON'T LIKE RAIDEN," that I missed all the cool shit and truth it was raining from left and right. Also, in retrospect, I now don't really mind Raiden all that much.

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 No.102597

>>102596

>in retrospect, I now

Apologies for the contradictory speech. I'm going to bed.

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 No.102605

>>102551

Needs more jews tbqh.

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File: e387be3c4ec763e⋯.jpg (20.46 KB,220x279,220:279,220px-Rand_Paul,_official_….jpg)

 No.102572 [Open thread]

Let's face it, if Trump didn't magically appeared out of nowhere pic related would be the US president now, I'm starting to think that all this alt-"right" surge was done by the powers that be to prevent the final rise of Libertarianism.

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 No.102573

I'm not sure getting Paul-kun (jr) into office would've changed anything. The President doesn't actually hold that much power.

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 No.102576

>pic related would be the US president now

doubt.jpg

The donor class preferred Jeb, Rubio and Cruz in pretty much that order. Cankles had a sumpremely well funded and incompetent team but the question remains whether Paul could've flipped the states he needed to flip for a win.

> doesn't actually hold that much power

He hold plenty but needs loyal personnel to act on it.

Which Trump fucked up badly by letting Rinsed Penis do most of the staffing causing the admin to be filled with NeverTrump cuckservatives and Obama holdovers.

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 No.102580

>>102572

He isn't attractive to the boomercon bulk of the party, so it's doubtful he could've won the primaries.

That said, he has the most cross-party appeal and firm values so he'd do well in a presidential race.

Missed opportunity imo.

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 No.102581

>>102572

I highly doubt that.

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 No.102587

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Wrong

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File: f022854934e71d5⋯.jpg (123.04 KB,511x604,511:604,1557953891.jpg)

 No.102547 [Open thread]

>so what's this libertarianism thingy, Anon?

4 postsomitted. Click reply to view. ____________________________
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 No.102560

>>102558

Where do you live?

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 No.102561

>>102555

Because you live in a first world country where they receive gibs. Look at pictures of countries where libertarianism is implicitly tied to women's rights, and the number of libertarian women skyrockets.

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 No.102562

>>102555

I know it isn't much but there's Mackenzie who's an ancap cosplayer. She's surprisingly based though she is engaged. https://twitter.com/_Kenziepuff

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 No.102565

File: f468d3205ac600e⋯.jpg (81.59 KB,1080x1066,540:533,D7gxH2NV4AEeHyC.jpg)

>>102562

>she plays Girls Frontline

That IS based!

Honestly, I don't normally comment about shit like this but holy fuck those are some wide-ass hips, brb gotta fap.

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 No.102600

>>102547

Too old, sage

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