/arda/ - Tolkien's Legendarium

>>1918

the chainmail was better.

Nobody in the Silm wears plate because it hadn't been invented yet. The dwarves made chain and sold it, and that's how they became rich.

until the noldor arrived and copied them

>>2160

I wouldn't be too eager to take any mention of any technology of the texts set in Third Age times as definitive about the technology used in-setting. Tolkien emulated the style of epics and romances, in which the people of the writer's past are often presented to have been close the same as the writer's contemporaries. People of the late Third Age used chain mail, ergo the text "written" by them feature chain-mail. Who knows what kind of armour (near-)divine smiths actually made in the hoary olden days?

>>2163

*set in times earlier than Third Age

>>2163

Even in earlier revisions where Aelfwine is the disseminating source for the Red Book, there's still no plate. Even in the Fall of Gondolin, written before the very concept of a 'Third Age' is liable to have existed in Tolkien's head, the inventory of Gondolin lists plenty of mail and halberks but no plate armor.

I think it's very unlikely Tolkien ever intended the Noldor to wear plate. The Numenoreans have a better case for it. Full plate armor (e.g. not overlapping plates like lorica segmentata or the dendra panoply) developed on the battefield according to changes in weapon tactics and technology. Namely, the rise of an entire class of skilled users of ranged weapons (first longbows and crossbows, then early firearms) that diminished the utility of traditional mail armor in pitched setpiece battles. The Noldor of the First Age certainly have the metallurgical and infrastructural capacity, but the need is questionable.

Neither Morgoth nor Sauron's orcs are known for being particularly skilled with ranged weaponry. The use of poison and barbed tips suggests that they're not particularly good at hitting their foes, that they need to make every arrow count.

Pitched setpiece battles are also rare in the First Age. There's only six of them, across ~580 years. One doesn't feature the Noldor, one comes just after they arrive from Valinor, another has literal divines plus the Vanyar backing them up. It was far more common, especially during the Siege of Angband years, for Morgoth's orcs to use skirmish and raid tactics instead of devoting resources to pitched battle. In such a circumstance, chain armor has far more utility than plate armor.

>>2256

>He left her our of pity because he did not want her to experience growing old and frail while he was still a dashing young elf, the love could only have ended in sorrow.

How is it supposed to have worked out with Aragorn and Arwen?

>>2259

Arwen turned into a human (or more accurately a half-elf Man like his uncle), similarly to Luthien, and died like a dog mortal. Blanda'ing up literally severs elven maidens from the spirits of their ancestors. Well, at least if divine exceptions are involved; Mithrellas presumably fucked off completely fine.

>>2265

Arwen's case was straight up cheating. Live for thousands of years and then decide to be mortal and still have a few centuries to go? Arwen should have popped out her kids out while still an Elf, so Eldarion could have ruled as an Elf for a few millennia. Use the palantir to enact Golden Path, turn into a were-worm.

>>2266

Eru is a dick. Ar-Pharazon did nothing wrong.

>>2236

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elveskud

For one, there's the ballad that inspired Goethe's work. Note that both of them follow the story of "Elf as monster that might represent the Heathen."

>>2245

>Olav rides out at dawn and comes upon elves dancing in the woods. One of the elf maids invites him to dance with her, but he refuses and tells her that he is to be married the next day. She puts a fatal sickness on him. When he comes home he is dying. He expresses his last wishes.

It sounds very similar to the lyrics of the Swedish ballad "Herr Mannelig" where instead of an elf you have a female troll trying to seduce a man. I agree with the idea of them representing heathens.

The Faerie Queene is a Renaissance work and had, for the first time, elves as the main characters and heroes battling against orcs.

>>2150

Yes but I don't see how that is related to this thread.

I only began seeing commercials for it about a week ago. It looks shitty and they try waaaaay too hard in them to go, "See! See! Tolkien, you know, the Lord of The Rings guy! Fiery CGI (that probably barely shows up in the movie to be fair) and shit!"

I'll still probably torrent it once it comes out on Blu-Ray, though.

>>2151

I think a relevant place to talk about having seen the film would be a thread about the film.

>>2134

>a man whose claim to fame is directing a Finnish version of "The Hangover"

Absolute state of Finland. The Tolkien family make it clean that they didn't want to be associated with that atrocity.

Tolkien's heirs were right to disapprove of plodding biopic: he deserves better

While Tolkien’s school days certainly had an effect on the writer he would become, his experience of war and comradeship was surely more than just a beastly and brutish episode in his overall development. Tolkien’s heirs made clear before the film arrived that they disapproved of it and they were right: he deserves better.

https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/tolkien-s-heirs-were-right-to-disapprove-of-plodding-biopic-he-deserves-better-20190612-p51wum.html

>>2137

some of those are wrong. no elves liked fortresses, caves or anything else. they are definitely forest associated.

>>2213

You brought up the witcher in the other thread.

It's probably because I don't read modern fantasy novels, but I've noticed all these negative elf stereotypes in memes more than in any actual works. Off the top of my head, the elder scrolls is a serious with asshole elves, particularly the high elves, because high = bad if you're a normalfag writer. The Eldar from W40k also seem to be assholes.

>>2214

Didn't the Noldor love building fortesses eg Gondolin? Doriath's main city was caves too.

>>2220

Close to all notable Elven settlement was a cave or a fortress, often both. Sindar build what was pretty much bunkers, and Noldor build castles even in peaceful Aman like Eru damned autists. Lothlorien is a distinct exception, and the explicit reason for that is presence of powerful magic. Legolas points out that the stone of Eregion remembers the Noldor, not the trees. Clearly they weren't that much into the forests.

>>2214

Spotted the fa/tg/uy

>>1710

>>1711

Mods ban these shitposters please

>>315

>we need to come up with new things anon

>we being someone who isn't me

Start writing or shut the fuck up, you obviously have no intention of bringing about any of this "needed" work.

>>1784

Stop shitting up the board asshole, discuss LOTR/Silmarillion without bringing up irrelevant shit or fuck off.

Tolkien's elves were mariners and other-worldly. Belegaer is the threshold between worlds like water was thought of by celts and norse. I think all elves had the sea longing, so that if they heard a gull, they could never be still again. Nobody's done much with that part of them.

>>1923

Musta been one helluva climb

>>1990

You're that one guy from those other threads aren't you?

>>1991

Indeed, and that he didn't think theologically in the first time.

Also the fact he dismissed allegories is quite interesting. Allegories are none traditional subjective and poor symbols. And he was thinking in symbols. That's a big difference between mythological high-quality stories and poor fantasy work. Religion/traditional thinking don't use allegories but symbols. I think it prove his superiority over all others after him.

>>1992

I posted in the thread about Tolkien's opinion on jews.

>>1994

“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”

>>1999

>varied applicability to the thought & experience of its readers

This is the keystone of the question of inner meaning in JRRT’s legendarium. None was put in deliberately, with a desire to preach (like say Narnia or Pilgrim’s Progress).

Instead, he stated that he knew these themes were widespread in western literature and should be embraced & contemplated-upon. It is not wrong to say “X symbolizes Y”, only to say “Tolkien meant X to mean Z, so all other evaluations are invalid”.

>Gandalf day he have pity of orc

Don’t forget guys: pitiable ≠ deserving

Being a victim does not entitle one to anything

>>1358

You should have storytimed it

>>1359

I might be able to get the whole letter if I’m careful

I read these letters for the first time this year. They were really nice. Tolkien seems like a good father. Most people wouldn't have made the effort.

Beautiful.

>>1856

>I half expect that Tolkien's answer to that questionnaire was half out of spite against dirty krauts rather than actual love for jews.

This. Tolkien fucking hated WWII and didn't think that either side was the good guys. He wasn't some crazed philo-semite who frothed at the mouth for the jews like some /pol/tards would have you believe, he was just butthurt about war and hatred in general. He decried propaganda that dehumanized Germans during the war and advocated forgiveness for Germany after the war, and he equated the outcome of the war to Saruman enslaving Sauron and wiping out the actual good guys. Even for his own time, Tolkien was a million times more sane than your average anglo.

>>1836

I doubt Tolkien believed this kind of nonsense, but plenty of Anglos bought into the idea that they wuz izriuhlites an shit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism

>>1833

Whatever fondness Tolkien had for the Jews would probably have come from his knowledge of the historical role of Israel in relation to God; Jesus and the disciples as well as most Old Testament saints having been ethnic Jews. However as a Catholic he would have believed that the Israel of God was now found in the Catholic church. While ethnic Jews could perhaps be proud of having been the first ethnic nation God revealed himself to, practicing rabbinical Judaism (which branched off from Pharisaism) would not have been seen positively by him. I'm certain he would not see an Anglo converting to Judaism as a good thing.

How did Christopher fuck up so badly that hos son blandaed upp with a jewess? Was Christopher's divorce from his first wife her fault, or was he just less Catholic than JRR and got tired of her?

>>1625

>race was stated to be outright created by Melkor to be evil

>OY VEY DAS RAYCISS

>>1644

>Soron

>>1644

Are you retarded?

Read letter 30

>>1644

>Soron is of course Satan/YHVH.

Yahweh is the God of Catholicism, although they don't usually use that name for him. Tolkien would not have agreed with your gnostic identification of God the Father with Satan.

>>2020

Well, technically that's the closest we have to His original name, which was lost to history

Fuck the kikes.

I don't care what they deem canon.

If it wasn't material directly written by Tolkien (directly or indirectly through letters, etc.) I don't care about it.

Shadow of Mordor/War?

Fucking garbage, no thank you.

Extra-kiked shit?

Gas yourself.

Fuck them.

>>1717

>movie series

But the movies removed all of the explicit themes of Aryan supremacy.

>>1873

Yeah but it didn't have a bunch of black cast members like the upcoming TV series.

>>1427

The Jackson Hobbit was terrible. The Rankin Bass Hobbit was good, the Rankin Bass LoTR was bad, and the Jackson LoTR was ok. Baksh LoTR was terrible.

>>1242

>HBO

Wow, how horrible would that be? ASOIAF already had plenty of sex scenes they could have adapted for GoT but that wasn't enough for them, they insisted on shoehorning random tits in all the time just to hold their idiot audience's attention through exposition scenes. And where the books vaguely hinted a character was gay, they threw in graphic gay sex scenes. I hate to think what they would do to Middle-Earth. At least ASOIAF was already somewhat degenerate to begin with.

>>1875

>Actually, why didn't Ulmo just take the ring to Valinor and have it unmade in the forges of Aule?

Would that have been possible? I thought it could only be destroyed where it was actually made.

>>1956

Between Aule and all the great craftsmen of the unexiled Noldor, I am completely sure that somebody could have figured out how to melt a little magic gold. Aule must have had access to lava that was at least as hot as what was in Mount Doom.

>>1971

I agree that they should have had the means to destroy the Ring. But in order for that to happen, firstly they would have needed one someone willing to take the Ring to Aman. Secondly the Ring would have to be to possible to moved to Aman. I could see it as too tied to Arda to be removed from it. A thirdly, the smiths at Aman would have needed to be able to destroy the Ring before someone started shit trying to claim it for themselves. Sauron could have boobytrapped it against his ex-master. Or maybe Aulë's own resentment for being such an eternal fuck-up would finally have boiled over and he would have claimed the Ring for himself (and propably remaking it into a better one), becoming Melkor 2.0 except weaker and even more pathetic.

>>1973

The council of Elrond discussed sending it over the sea in a ship, so it was probably possible. And again, Ulmo could have just grabbed it and spirited it over to Valinor during the centuries it was sitting on a riverbed. And I could see the Ring corrupting maybe some of the Noldor, but I doubt if it could have corrupted any of the Valar. Like Tom Bombadil, they should have been beyond the powers of the Ring.

>>1971

>>1973

iirc the Ring was too closely bound to Arda, so it could not travel beyond to Aman.

Like LotR, it's one of the greatest sci-fi or fantasy series ever, it's written by a Catholic with strong but not overt Catholic themes, and it features an absolutely virtuosic use of the English language.

In almost every other respect, it is totally unlike the LotR.

>>1885

I agree with the general sentiment, but I found the plot incredibly lacking and I don't think it measures up to Dune in terms of greatest sci-fi.

>>1890

I can respectfully disagree but understand where you're coming from about 'Dune', and while I think 'incredibly lacking' might be going a bit far, I'll agree that the series is not the mostly tightly plotted group of novels ever written. Especially when compared to Tolkien, whose works are, above all else, excellent stories, whereas Wolfe uses his stories as vehicles for ideas, characters, and lush settings.

I've read Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique stories and the first two of Jack Vance's Dying Earth books. What's similar and different in The Book of the New Sun compared to those?

>>1726

>muh culture muhfugga

leftypol pls go

Incest is bad because recessive alleles tend to run in families, making it more likely that the baby will get whatever genetic diseases the parents might have been carriers for. This is why people tend to breed outside their own families, and this is why heavily inbred populations like Jews or Arabs display hybrid vigor when they miscegenate: a partner from another population is much less likely to have the same recessive alleles and therefore much more likely to make a somewhat-healthy child.

>>1751

Family that are not living with one another can go the opposite way. Just this year, a father that was reunited with his daughter, whom was put up for adoption early in her life, got impregnated by him and now they're married.

>>1815

Yes, and it’s most likely a mechanism to prevent incest since siblings are more likely than not to live together

>>1863

Well yeah, it’s not a perfect mechanism, but my point still stands

>>1848

Did you even read the post, or did you just see “cultural brainwashing” and start sperging?