/arda/ - Tolkien's Legendarium

>>832

> they are still fallible

Most religions' gods were.

Arda has all of Earth's religions by definition, just fast forward a couple Ages. The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth sort of posits a Fall of Man - divine incarnate scenario when it discusses Eru's original plan for mankind (it also, interestingly, states that the first Music ended for the Ainur just as the Firstborn began to fade from Middle Earth e.g. around the early Fourth Age, which means anything after, including our history and the transitional period between Middle Earth and prehistorical Earth societies, is unknown to the Valar). It's merely a hypothetical, but it's quite interesting in the context of Tolkien's views on Mannish beliefs and Messianism in the aftermath of Melkor's corruption.

'Truly,' said Andreth. 'So may Eru in that mode be present in Eä

that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into

Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do

this? Would it not shatter Arda, or

indeed all Ea?"

'Ask me not,' said Finrod. 'These things are beyond the compass of

the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words

may mislead us, and that when you say "greater" you think of the

dimensions of Arda, in which the

greater vessel may not be contained in

the less.

'But such words may not be used of the Measureless. If Eru wished

to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot

foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He

must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to

speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be

achieved. Since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to turn the world to his

own will and to triumph in the end. Yet there is no power conceivable

greater than Melkor Post too long. Click here to view the full text.

boop

>>862

That volume of History of Middle Earth (which is Morgoth's Ring for anyone interested) is by far the most important lore piece you can get for a metaphysical and theological study of the secondary world actually

Not only does it have that story of the Fall of Man, it also delves into the concepts of Arda Marred (hence, Morgoth's Ring), has a bit about Eldar culture, (which include bits about soul and body) and also as the Annals of Aman.

If you get one volume of that collection, get that one.

>>836

>"Okay kids, hold hands."

>"the last time we tried to talk to the gods, two thirds of us died. Amen"

I laugh

>>804

Rumo & His Miraculous Adventures(pic in the OP) is the third novel(the second one having never been translated to English for some reason), it's a bit more serious and overall more focused, following the life of Rumo, A Wolpertinger(an anthropomorphized dog with tiny horns). The first is about Rumo questing for and adapting to Wolperting, the ancestral city of his people, after the farmers who raised him as a pet are killed. The second half is about him going into the underworld to rescue the cities' inhabitants after they disappear. There's also some subplots involving Volzotan Smyke, a Shark Grub(literally a giant grub with the head of a shark) who teaches Rumo and helps him find Wolperting, working with a student of Prof. Nightingale that intersect with the main plot in the second half of the book. Rumo and Smyke also both appeared near the end of Bluebear as minor characters, but this book takes place before that so it's not important to know before reading it.

>>809

>fifth book

>instead of dying on the streets

>between this book and the others

Dammit can I edit my posts?

>>778

I disagree that he made an allegory about his life. There are areas which clearly draw from Tolkien's life experiences I agree. I would argue however that these happened naturally as an outgrowth of Tolkien being a human shaped by the world and not as an intentional literary device. For example the seige of Minas Tirith was very vivid in creating the sense of stress and menace during a sustained war. Surely Tolkien knew what this situation felt like which shaped how it portrayed these events.

Nothing was a direct allegory to his life. He wrote in themes that he considered universal, subcreation within creation which held a bit of the moral truth of the world. Naturally he focused on certain things that he knew best how to represent, such as his view on love, or how war is hell.

But even then, the way he wrote and presented them were fairly universal. You wouldn't know Beren and Lúthien were sort of stand ins for himself and his wife without searching into it.

>>755

>>755

it's going to take awhile for people to respond m8

>>755

You could have at least attempted to pander to our Tolkien autism.

>>708

Sounds like the thoughts of a WWI veteran that likely saw plenty of dead soldiers laying there after a battle.

>>708

Dying for an ideology is pointless. You die for your blood, you die for you kin. That line is fairly accurate to what most British WWI vets felt, not just about their enemies, but about themselves.

>>703

I think it's just that some people just have find things like that to occupy their mind, as thinking about their life is either not necessary or not stimulating enough to do all the time. Sometimes those people find a few things they enjoy thinking about and build upon them as much as they possibly can whenever their mind is free. Some do it with science, some like Tolkien do it with art or writing, and way too many people do it with porn.

>>751

Some people are borne onto this plane of suffering and realize quickly that the sole means of drowning the suffering out is to create.

>>678

> after they found out he hated blacks.

Was there a, "Before," finding out Lovecraft was racist? It tends to be one of the first things people learn about him.

>>446

Círdan, the most patient and loyal sunofabitch ever to ply the seas of the world. I want to see his workshop.

>>734

HE SHED THE BLOOD OF THE SAXON MEN

not much to say to that. /arda/ certainly needs more users, but anything that takes on too many people will be threatened to homogenize and fall prey to the kind of norms we come here to avoid. I think /pol/ is struggling with this exact problem right now.

Then again I'm shilling for this board everywhere at every mention of Middle-Earth anyway. I like having a board where I won't be shrieked at for saying Aragorn isn't supposed to be black. I hope it stays that way.

>>717

I want to funpost about Tolkien with people who know something about his works and don't get offended by shitposting. I imagine claiming Berúthiel was tranny Sauron would get me banned on most Tolkien forums.

I don't mind you guys spreading the word. This isn't like other exodus communities where there were pre established board culture and etiquette to follow. It's an entirely new thing, so board culture, memes, etc, are all to be developed and will do so organically.

Just don't introduce absolute shitters that can't put together a coherent English sentence and we'll be fine.

>>418

Yeah, where was Morg

>>418

Yeah, where was Morgotg keeping him and the other dragons?

How did he feed them?

>>420

>>419

Dragons are magic. I don't think they need to eat.

Also Morgoth first unleashed the winged dragons during the War of Wrath.

>>418

Morgoth tried to hide Glaurung until he was at full maturity but he got out early. It would make sense I guess that he would continue to improve his dragons and that he would make sure his future ones don't escape early. Hence Ancalagon.

It also shows that Morgoth poured so much power into his creations that he himself wasn't the main threat in the battles against him.

>>413

>why make a dragon this big?

This is a very foolish question.

>>422

ditto with Ancalagon. Tolkien adhered to an old theme that all dragons have a soft spot, and he attributed this to the fact that Morgoth never completed them.

Is anyone else just a little sick of this joke besides me? and besides Ian McKellen?

>>290

I couldn't find any manuscript in shops around me. I have zero idea where to find it besides ordering online, which is a hassle.

>>291

Art ateliers usually have them. Is there none in your area?

>>292

Not that I know of. I can try asking someone.

>>275

DUDE do it. That would be some seriously medieval shit. And you have to have art in it too

>>672

Project was delayed indefinitely. I still practice trying to make my calligraphy look a bit more Bilbo like. This is my far the most faggy thing I've done.

I seem to remember that Tolkien, at first, thought the notion of people coming in and adding their creativity and perspective to his setting was a novel idea. He knew very well how true myths and legends evolved, and was tickled at the direction his own work may take.

Then he began to see what other people were actually writing with his stuff, and was highly dissatisfied. He was alive for the early animated flicks, but I'm not sure if he ever saw them.

>>533

Tolkien knew Narnia better than most.

He said it was shit.

>>643

Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were good friends. I believe Lewis has a huge impact on his religious views. It's my understanding that Tolkien disliked Narnia because of the direct allegories like Aslan = Jesus. Where did you see that he disliked Lewis's books altogether though?

>>642

Problem was that most of the background material wasn't released in his life time, so of course nobody would have been able to write anything but thematically inconsistent crap. Unless they did something like the daily life of rich lazy hobbit #563.

>>642

This.

Tolkien's works inspired amazing art (actual art, not deviantart shit), but ultimately it came too late. It came right before the cultural subversions of post WW2 like the 60s hippie movement.

>>320

Goddamn it fuck my double negative

>it isn't stated that the balrog necessarily obeys Sauron*

There we go. Fixed.

>>319

>>320

A personal theory I have about the "pecking order" on the remnants of Morgoth's forces, is that balrogs are the most loyal to Morgoth. They saved him from Ungoliant, and every task they have been given they have accomplished it. Meanwhile Sauron got his ass kicked by a half-maia, lost his fortress and then willingly surrendered when Morgoth fell. It's no wonder they have little respect for him and would not follow his orders.

>>326

>Meanwhile Sauron got his ass kicked by a half-maia

Who was also a woman.

But to be fair, she also bested Morgoth himself in a contest of wills, so Sauron had an excuse at least.

>>326

>Sauron got his ass kicked by a half-maia

and a dog

>>657

Sauron's a shitter.

>>580

>>582

Yavanna created the Ents shortly before the Elves awoke.

>>579

>Ents were all gay

Considering Tolkien was a Catholic from the olden days, I don't think he would make any of his characters gay, unless they were evil.

>>586

maybe they were just asexual

>>587

>>586

We have no reason to doubt that the entwives were real.

>>588

yeah but the sudden and jarring implication that Treebeard was bullshitting everybody for centuries is too laughable to give up on right away.

Pretty sure Tolkien himself said it wasn't.

Copied this from here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Misconceptions#The_Arkenstone_was_a_Silmaril

>"The Arkenstone was a Silmaril, probably the one thrown into a fiery pit by Maedhros, and found its way (geologically?) to the north, to be rediscovered by the Khazad of Erebor. Tolkien wrote that the two lost Silmarils would remain lost until the end of Arda. However, in a partial translation of early Silmarillion texts into Old English Tolkien used the etymologically related term 'Eorclanstanas' ('holy stones') to translate 'Silmarils' - suggesting that he may have borrowed the name and other concepts from the Silmarils in describing the Arkenstone.

A Silmaril is a gemstone hallowed by Varda which would not suffer the touch of mortal or evil hands.[1] It only allowed Beren to handle it, but Beren also lost the hand that held it. Many mortals handled the Arkenstone without a consequence, and they did not all have good intent. It would have burned them and possibly burned Smaug if it were truly a Silmaril. As attractive as this theory is, because it would have made the Arkenstone such a poignant element in The Hobbit, it can only be, at best, Silmaril-like or Silmaril-inspired. The latter being the most likely case. It is not a Silmaril."

Whether Tolkien really verified it himself or not it still stands that the Silmarils themselves could not be touched nor handled by mortals. I personally would have loved the idea of it being worked into the story. Even then though, since the Silmarillion itself is more a chronicle of myths and epics what could be considered fact or fiction to the reality of Middle Earth is up for debate. If you take the Silmarillion as the ultimate final word then by definition the Arkenstone would likely just be it's own special stone

>>497

I would take the Silmarillion as fact. After all, there were people in Middle Earth who had experienced pretty much all of it, save for the very beginning. Galadriel walked in Valinor under the light of the two trees, and Círdan was probably one of the elves that awoke at Cuívienen. Even the very beginning would have come to those two via primary sources, the Valar and Maiar themselves (all of them in Galadriel's case, and Ulmo and Ossë in the case of Círdan).

>>504

I would agree based on that yeah. There are multiple sources in Middle Earth who had been alive long enough to verify this, Gandalf included. Though even then, the specific circumstances of all the stories aren't necessarily understood and not all of these sources were there to witness events besides Manwe himself since he can see most everything.

I'd like to think that everything in the Silmarillion is the truth by all who witnessed it, and it may very well be. In that way it really is sort of a Bible. You can take it as the ultimate word of God (Eru) or as a collection of stories from which Middle Earth takes its lessons (though more verifiable since there were people alive to say they were actually there)

>>504

>Silmarillion as fact

Isn't there a line (I think concerning the origin of dwarves) saying that the Silmarillion is a chronicle by the elves, and they may not be reliable narrators in everything?

And didn't Tolkien frequently talk about the writ-in-stone books as if their accounts were up for conjecture?

>>503

Mordor is the proverbial enemy. Its how we see our foes. Thats why it resonates

>>503

i just realised something

Mordor Morgoth

>>503

tolkien can hate allegory all he wants, doesn't mean people can't read into his works more than he consciously did when he wrote it

sometimes the artist is oblivious to the depth of their work

>>581

Tolkien was smarter than a modern country put together. I don't subscribe to applying politics to his world.

Tolkien wrote something that goes beyond simple "this is x, and this is y". There was no clear cut comparisons to be made, there was only what you choose to see in the book.

Applicability, not allegory.

>>514

he said he hated allegory for its insincerity, but he never took issue with people finding inner meanings in his work. What he hated was people insisting that he deliberately inserted symbolism everywhere.