/fast/ - Sonic the Hedgehog

Here's an excerpt from something I'm typing up that I can hopefully show to this thread when it's done. There's a lot more context to it then you probably think there is and I want to back all of this up.

>Many Sonic fangames I see, such as Sonic Utopia, try to do the same thing: take the physics and momentum-based gameplay from the 2D Genesis classics (and Mania) and translate them into 3D. They do this because it seems logical, and because the Sonic Adventure games already attempt to do this to a certain extent, and they enjoy those games.

>The problem I have with this setup is that it assumes that is the only way for Sonic to be able to translate to a 3D environment. Or that it is the best way. Neither Super Mario 64 nor Super Mario Odyssey attempt to recreate 2D Mario gameplay. When Mario did try to recreate it, with Super Mario 3D World, the results were less-than-impressive. Neither Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania, nor Prince of Persia tried to recreate their 2D adventures in their 3D outings. Those that did, such as Prince of Persia 3D, and Mega Man X7, fell completely flat. And this isn’t just because the developers were incompetent: they were trying to make a game be like something that it just wasn’t. A three-dimensional environment offers so much greater potential for gameplay than just having the ability to run in any direction you want. And you will notice that every example I just named is a platformer. Keep that in mind, and ask yourself if you would rather play the Green Hill Zone stage in Sonic Adventure 2, or Seaside Hill Modern in Sonic Generations. The “boost formula” of Sonic Unleashed came out of nowhere, and it showed that Sonic does not even need to focus on physics and momentum to create a great Sonic game that still feels like a Sonic game.

>What all those examples all have in common, especially with Mario, is that instead of recreating what their franchises were, they recreate what people remember them being. They take the most memorable elements of each one and expand on them. They cut down on gamey elements and immerse the player in what it feels like to be these characters. When you play Super Mario Odyssey, you feel like you ARE Mario. When you play Ninja Gaiden Black, you feel like you ARE Ryu. When you play Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, you feel like you ARE the Prince.

>And that brings us to our main topic: how can we feel like Sonic? What is it like to actually be in Sonic’s shoes, with all his abilities, in his own universe? What would someone remember Sonic being, as a child, in 1991 for the very first time? It all points to one answer: speed.

>As a child, I never cared or thought about how the physics work in Sonic 1. I never cared about how the level design has so many different paths to take. I never cared about the platforming challenges across perilous pits. All of that is nice, and something Sonic should have at least to some degree, but every platformer has that today. Sonic is not special anymore when it comes to that. All I cared about back then was seeing something that, even today, isn’t like anything else in gaming: seeing a stage and its visuals blaze by you, to the point where Sonic could even outrun the camera. That’s the one aspect of Sonic that manages to stay relevant and unique among every platformer out there.

>So we gotta have speed. Demon speed. Speed’s what we need. We need greasy, fast SPEED!

I'm back

>>13820

As a massive fan of that, I understand many people have concerns that gameplay like that is too much for level design that wouldn't be for massive landmasses, at least in their opinion. I think there's easy solutions around that but for the sake of compromising, I'd take that gameplay style but dial back the top speed a bit, and make Sonic a bit more heavier so his speed doesn't give us massive airtime being so floaty. Otherwise, just tighten the aerial controls and it's good.

Now, there's a lot of ways we could make a Sonic game, but I think to keep this project within reasonably expectations, maybe we should look at the best elements of past Sonic games we enjoyed, and see what could be used for our project, but scale it no higher than that of Mania. That way, the focus would be just to make levels that tie around a narrative of our choosing, a scope that doesn't overshoot the size for the game, and mostly, to make sure the possibility of other characters don't take away too much time away from the core experience. Whether or not we have styles like Treasure Hunting, the Werehog or the Wisps, make sure Sonic's standard style of play is the defining part of the game, and make other styles of play flow within that style instead of something that could be defined as another genre for another kind of game. So lets begin.

First, what is the consensus for the direction of the game? Light story ala S3K/Heroes with a tone and art style of said games? Or something between SA1 and Unleashed? Or would you prefer ShTH and SA2/06 styled story focus?

Second, what gameplay style do you most prefer? To stay consistent, we'll focus on Sonic's main styles of play. Should we go the route of the classics ala Utopia like mentioned before? Or, something more one to one to SA1/2? Or would boost gameplay be preferred? Depending on which style of play, it should define how the level design would be constructed.

>Classic styled can have more open level design with wider platforms to accommodate speed, and thus, allows for exploration to follow for secret bonuses and Special stage rings.

>Adventure would be more tighter in stage scale and platforming, as the controls and overall top speed isn't as high as the classics or boost, so smaller, Mario equse scaled level design would work for the style of play. Although levels should be made where there's clear direction to the goal, aka linear, since those games specialized how to play the level correctly over raw speed to the goal, some open areas for different paths to take wouldn't hurt add variety, and add to the notion, if Chao Garden were used, to help hide better animals in these places while the common animals stay on the linear path.

>Boost style would be the most linear of the gameplay styles, and since the budget for an "Pixar" Sonic game wouldn't be a factor for a fan project, level detail scaled back could mean more time to add more length to the level so it wouldn't be as short as Forces. That being said, it would come down to if we can make a full 3D boost level, or op for the standard 2D/3D hybrid instead. Either way, to expand it thoroughly, making the game a challenge by making the gameplay benefit a Sonic 2 style setup (top path = fastest run, bottom path = dangerous run) could tier the boosting into a way where good use of the boosting rewards faster play, but improper use means more obstacles to face, that instead of punishing you with death, can instead be replaced with a lower section of the stage filled with enemies, and the challenge would be to get back to the topmost area of the stage.

With all that, what do you think so far? I think structuring the project into these tiers first and foremost would make it clearer what engines would be best for the direction forward, and tone and style of play would let the project flow better knowing all that we are focused on doing at once, instead of brainstorming during development of the game, which would slow down the project and could make the game less focused and messy.

>>13826

Oh. Nvm then.

>>13828

Fair point.

Personally speaking if I were to choose between what style of gameplay I'd prefer to see in this Sonic project like in >>13824's post, I see a lot of potential in shooting for something more akin to the Classic-styled type of gameplay can work.

Boost, Classic & Adventure all have elements to them that I find appealing, but the Classic style would provide a solid amount of variety in how the level can be completed, giving good focus to fast gameplay, while keeping things a bit open so the player can explore the stage for bonuses & can take different paths to the goal ring.

>>13828

That's true, but keep in mind games like Mario that has his world constucted not for the idea that Peach being captured by Bowser, really matter in the end because nothing will happen to her if Mario doesn't save her fast enough, or TF2 because the focus is in the name, TEAM play is how TF2 work well when in focus.

Sonic however, has always had a reason for his madness.When speaking from a non Sonic fan (not from malice) persective; why would I want to play a Sonic game for? Speed is the common answer, but there's many other games that can do the same now. Freedom Planet, Spark, etc. What makes Sonic work is the setting of Sonic itself. Personally, I wanna play a Sonic game with the idea that he's doing what he does because he wants to protect the world he lives in. Why live in a world where I can go fast, if all of my friends and the wildlife gets corrupted and ruled by Doctor Eggman? That's why I like S3K over 2 so much despite 2 having the better looking color tones and such, because the connected locations made the game feel grand and adventuous simply because I was going to place to place, fixing the problems Eggman was causing. When you have contrained, hyperspace levels like Mario, it makes the world feel artificle.

Tbh, you're right that his gameplay has to be the prime focus so playing the game actually feels fun. But like what others say about Utopia (despite it not being the final product), without good level design, the physics mean nothing. I understand this from a different perspective, that without a world Sonic lives in that feels like a place not as a video game, but and breathing environment, it makes me want to continue playing the game. At most, whatever gameplay style we settle on, it has to tie with the idea playing the game has a perpose instead of just being "video game levels in a vacuum".

I personally believe this was the biggest fault to Sonic Forces. The idea of Eggman winning has been something many fans apparently wanted for years, but it failed to work because, imo, the aftermath of playing through it never impacted the state of the game. The overworld screen "implies" Sonic and friends are stopping Eggman's army, but the levels never change to refect this. Even Generations made this distinction, that your actions mattered.

>>13823

>>13833

>>13846

The next segment is complete.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jfquoUXoBDncOfWT8fpSuDRwlyAnUV1F963L23QUKKg/edit?usp=sharing

I briefly go into the issues with the boost formula, but mostly focus on the Sonic CD intro, how that can used as a tech demo, and how important it is to actually feel like Sonic.

>>13849

>Vertical Slice

Hi ArtsyOmni

But for real, I like this rundown (no pun intended). It highlights a lot of elements that, when compared to Boost and how close it has reached at being like the CD opening, but still has its shortcomings, it's addressed on which direction can be made into making a better example to really realize a proper Sonic experience.

Personally, I like it, and after reading this, I actually came up with ideas to rectify all the little nuances to make what you've documented possible in a gaming environment.

I just woke up so I'm half brain dead atm so apologies for any weird typing. But as I see it, if we wanted to simulate the ability to hit a high speed on a dime like in the CD opening without a buildup to do so like in the classic games, but not to the point it's trivialized to its extreme with a press of a button, here's my answer: "Why not just map your speed to the trigger button instead of a standard button press?" That way, instead of hitting top speed at a finite rate (because boost depletes over time), putting it on the left trigger allow for a range of speed under full control. Think of Smash Bros when using your shield. The harder you hold down on the trigger, the stronger your shield bubble becomes. We do the same for Sonic's running speed, the tighter the press, the faster Sonic can go. Hit the trigger all the way down as fast as possible, and you hit top speed instantly like with boosting, like in the CD opening, BUT, you can always choose HOW fast you go if you choose to hold it down less. It's like the running option in Lost World but less binary. His analog control still works as normal, which should bring him up to a average jog like the classics, but now, you can tier how much faster you move with the left trigger, instead of a button press.

This would also, imo, give no need for things like a boost gauge, or something that has bugged me even for the classic era, the speed shoes. I find this power up extremely outdated on two fronts; having a power up that's temporary that can only be capitalized based on where you find it rather than where you choose to use it, and the idea of speed not under the control you wish with level design not exactly tested for speed not normally present during certain locations on the level, both 2D and 3D. So I'd remove these from the game entirely. Invincibility can still exist, but I'm open to what could be done with it, as it shares similar issues with the speed shoes, a powerup you're forced to use where you find it, rather, when to use it. Now, to go into another detail in your document that I actually liked that someone else thought about, bouncing off of walls. I personally found this odd how it was never ever done in 3D Sonic games at all, and this wasn't even thinking in regards to the CD opening either. To me, Adventure era had the problem of sticking to walls because of the outdated collision engine, which lead to a lot of e-celebs falling (no pun intended again) for the glitches the game faced and thus, demeaned the game for it. However in the boost era, they seemed to have fixed the issue with the walls as it doesn't stop you in your tracks anymore just rubbing against them, but I always wondered wouldn't it feel better if instead, you bump off from them like a weak bumper from the classic games, just enough to design a path or a loop to have the player naturally centralize on the path instead of like in Forces, where the game actively scripts you into the middle of the road so haphazardly.

1/2

>>13853

2/2 So there is a word length cap, dammit…

This goes nicely into your comparison, the spindash. The spindash, in this case, allows for more obvious and direct environmental control. Sonic, on foot, doesn't have the terrain effect him. I know this is contentious since, well, the classic games were known for this, and I myself, love the classic design to a tee. But like this anon addresses, 3D Sonic should "revolutionize" the classic experience into what the games wished they could do if it were possible back then. With physics controls both in effect when running and rolling, it made Sonic more uniformed for platforming, but not so much for achieving speed. If you wanted to go fast, you'd roll instead of run. I really like this from the aspect Sonic is, well, a Hedgehog, but there is always different ways to make the same thing work I feel. In this case, as stated before, Sonic should have full control over the environment when on foot. Maybe on steep slopes he's forced into moving like you'd expect, but it never actively lets him gain speed like the classics. Unless, he's in a ball. Spindashing will maintain its core aspect from the 90s, gaining momentum. Here this can work more in tandem for doing things with the environment, in which case, bouncing off of walls. Like in the document, Sonic can redirect himself using walls based on a angle, and this I think, can simulate the ability to make Sonic change direction on sharp turns. Hit a wall while rolling and based on the impact angle, he'd ricochet in the parallel direction. This could even replace the use of springs, or at most, the use of them for directional purposes, and maybe could be more a "Eggman" invention to slow down Sonic, or make it clearly using these lead Sonic into dangerous traps, not in the way it actively leads him into taking damage, moreso, in a area occupied by enemies. Think of that one moment in Emerald Hill with all the Coconuts in the trees, on the floating landmass.

So, long post aside, I hope these ideas can add to this anon's well constructed analysis. I think making this into a game has a good foundation to start from, but the sad part I think is that this means we'd might have to make a engine up from scratch, if not, retool another engine for a liking. Don't think that's not ok to do when this was a comment practice back in the earlier days of 2D Sonic fangames, just give credit where credit is do. We should, in the end, treat this fan game as a proof of concept first more than a full fledged game. As it was said, a "Vertical Slice" if you will.

>>13849

Art. I'm not an artist, so this will be shorter than the others (and I can just paste it here).

>What is reality, on Mobius? Many fans generalize Sonic as a “anthro blue hedgehog who runs fast and beats up a fat man”. And it’s funny to say that, and it is true, but people take that to mean Sonic cannot be taken seriously, it cannot have realism, and the story/tone should just be bouncing around in Ronald McDonald Land. Just because Sonic obviously can’t exist in our world doesn’t mean that either he or Mobius can’t be believable. I’ll go into this a little more in the story/tone section, but for now, I want to make it clear that even from the very beginning, Sonic Team tried to evoke the feeling of our own world within Sonic’s own.

>Notice how in Green Hill, the ground looks like real ground. It isn’t flat: rather, it curves and dips with naturally-formed hills and slopes. Scrap Brain, in comparison, is entirely flat, because it’s a man-made area. Sonic games have never attempted this since, because either the technology didn’t allow for it at the time, or evoking realism was something Iizuka and his team never thought was part of Sonic’s appeal. But it absolutely is. Part of why the early Sonic games hold so much atmosphere is that we can believe that these levels exist in a real place. We can compare Sonic’s reality to our own. These are not levels suspended in hyperspace, like you see with Super Mario 3D World or Sonic Lost World. These are real places in this setting that Sonic can just travel to. They don’t exist just for the player to experience, they exist to flesh out the setting of Mobius.

>The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild knows how to show a believable world. Look at those hills, those patches of flowers, the lone tree. THIS is the type of realism a grassy Sonic level deserves.

>So when designing your levels, think of how these places would look in our reality before implementing them into Sonic’s own. Sure, there could be a healthy amount of color, and there could be all sorts of wacky gimmicks like pulleys and corkscrews and giant mushrooms to bounce on, but Sonic is not some Mario-type setting where the hills have eyes and the flowers bounce to the music. Sonic’s setting is our own, just with a bit more magic. A bit more neon, a bit more weird plants.

>>13853

>>13854

Interesting idea for how to control your range of speed. I had a similar idea that I will write up later, in giving Sonic an accelerator similar to that of a driving game. My main concern is that I would not want Sonic to be able to hit top speed instantly. I want there to strike a balance between blasting off, but also earning your top speed by maintaining your "boost" state for an extended period. And yes: analog control should still function, but perhaps it only gives you an average jog. And I also considered that the speed cap from Sonic 1 could be implemented, where Sonic does not gain speed by running downhill in this state, and perhaps not even in boost state: you would need to go into a ball to truly take advantage of slopes.

>>13881

With how unfinished and unstable Infinity Engine is, it's unsuited for full fangame development. We could be halfway through development, then realize that what we want to accomplish is completely impossible without heavy modification, if not a complete rewrite. I would focus on using BE for now, since SS68 is available to help if need be, and if Project Hero is ever released, it would be an easier porting process since they're both in Unity.

But that being said, I think we need to go at this with a bit of professionalism. That's where many fangames fail. We need a clear consensus on the direction, an easy-to-understand production plan that details everything we need to do, a schedule with an estimate of how long each task would take, and a final pitch for the game. Then we need to hire people who can mesh with the development team and are willing to work as volunteers, and in the hiring process, we need people to submit resumes and to be interviewed. THEN, once all that is done, we work behind closed doors and communicate through either Discord or some other group chat/file sharing method.

It's boring, and it sucks, but that's how shit gets done.

>>13884

Fair enough, then.

I'm all for the ideas mentioned earlier (like in >>13849 >>13853 & >>13854), but I dunno if we can say that's the main direction this thing will head in. Given that this is just the first thread, there's a chance other folks may have an idea of their own that can either help flesh out what was already suggested or may be something entirely different.

>>13869

Sorry I took so long with this, but I was caught up with other things. But here's a proof of concept of what the control scheme layout would be, and I just wanted to see if this was clear enough for me to continue with. I wanted to add one more example, pulling the analog stick back = braking, but I ran out of time for today. Let me know what you think.

>>13951

It's cool anon, I understand.

Control template looks good too, so if you have anymore ideas on controls be sure to show us what you got!

>>13971

The problem I have with that philosophy is that under pressure and stress from an action game, players are going to be aggressive on the analog stick. In your hypothetical control setup, going hard left or right would make them drift while sprinting, but I would expect players don't want to accidentally drift when they just want to steer themselves left or right, and they won't want to have to focus on how sensitive they are on the analog stick while dodging obstacles. You should be able to choose between drifting and steering when controlling Sonic at high speeds, much like the boost games already do.

And while I understand and respect ShayMay's videos and philosophy (and agree with him on quite a few things) I think the idea of using only one button for movement, in a game like this, is a fool's errand. For a slow, 2D, momentum-based platformer like Sonic Mania it works, but for a more advanced 3D game that lets Sonic do all kinds of things, it would only (ironically) make things more complicated by going against what players expect, and keep the skill ceiling overly low for players used to more complex mechanics. If there is an accelerator, brake and drifting mechanic in your game, it should take notes from games that already have those, rather than try to force "Sonic tradition" into it.

I also don't understand what you mean by R2 not needing to be held down to accelerate/boost. I thought we agreed that controlling Sonic at extreme speeds should not fall to the analog stick.

Although, I will agree that the controls should not be TOO complicated. Here's my take. Repost after I messed up the last image. I'm tired, damn it.

>>13977

And, assuming if your image is your take, do we really need a game were Sonic can both roll and slide? They basically function nearly identically, given what I experienced in Generations. I even made a clip showcasing this a while back ago. And the reaction button (or what I think it's called, contact sensitive command ala Conker) seems to be a bit, well, reactionary for just the command action. When are tricks initiated? Just being in the air? Or when you hit those special dash pads? And would parkouring being used when Sonic touches a wall and initiate it, or when he's already airborne? And what's stopping the Homing attach being on this button, if it is, not getting conflicted with some other command action overriding it being too close to Sonic, aka, like in SA2? That was one of the biggest problems in that game, accidentally using a move you didn't expect to use. The idea is nice, but it should be clear exactly what you are going to do when pressing any button on the control.

Oh, and L1. I like the idea Sonic can store power ups instead of having to be forced into using it when it's found, but, how does this work? Like, Super Mario World? I'd have to imagine it has to be used for an item you know you're going to be using. Something I wanted to be clarified with so far seeing this.

>>14058

But the idea was we would try and convince Sonic fans we knew could code to be a part of it.

Like

"I'm assembling a team."

>>14059

Well, has anyone reached out to people who knows how to code?

I'd love to help out on this part myself, but a lot of the names that comes to mind for me are already working on their own fan-projects.