/christianity/ - Christian Theology & Philosophy

>>7801

What kind of batshit loony "Christian" board is this? You think the most fundamental thing to being a Christian is a completely unspoken, assumed doctrine? Not say, following the fucking teachings of Christ?

>>7803

There is already another thread for discussing the doctrine of the trinity, but I'm guessing you're the same heretic swearing at people you disagree with in that thread too.

Feel free to leave any time. Reclaim >>>/nontrinitarianchristians/ if you want.

>>7803

Sorry sir, this is a Christian board, so please, no swearing

>>7801

>We are defining Christian broadly and in the most basic, historic way: affirming the doctrine of the trinity.

I humbly suggest the following:

—

Our Beliefs

GOD

We believe in one God, existing eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; the Creator of heaven and earth.

BIBLE

We believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God, inerrant and complete.

DOCTRINE

We believe in the Apostles’ Doctrine, the faith which was once delivered unto the Saints. It is the ancient doctrine believed everywhere, always, by everyone in the Early Church. We confess three creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Nicene Creed, and Athanasian Creed.

JESUS CHRIST

We believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God; that He came to earth as God in human flesh; and that He is the only way to God the Father. We believe that all people who repent of their sins against God and believe on the name of Jesus Christ as Savior shall be saved for eternity.

HOLY SPIRIT

We believe that all Believers in Jesus Christ shall receive the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, empowers for service, comforts and consoles, leads in truth, guides through wisdom, reveals things to come, and imparts spiritual gifts as He chooses for the glory of God, the edification of Believers, and as a testimony to the unsaved.

CHURCH

We believe that every Believer in Jesus Christ – all nationalities, races, ethnic groups, and Christian religious denominations – are members of the Body of Jesus Christ, the one, holy, universal, and apostolic Church.

SACRAMENTS

We believe Holy Communion (also known as the Thanksgiving Feast and the Eucharist) and Water Baptism are the two sacraments Jesus Christ divinely instituted in His Church.

MATRIMONY

We believe that God established marriage as a divine institution, and is a holy covenant between God and one man and one woman.

>>7820

The Three Ecumenical or Universal Creeds

—

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic* Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

* catholic means "universal" and is not a reference to the Roman Catholic Church.

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

—

(cont.)

>>7821

The Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

>>7803

You're free to go establish your own "loony" Christian board if you so wish.

>>7802

I advise you to read the writings of the early Church Fathers. Nothing is new under the sun. There have been countless debates during the early Church in rooting out heresies. Seventh-Day Adventists are nothing more than a modern incarnation of the the heretical sect of Ebionites. Secondly, I suggest you block Wikipedia and go directly to the source and read the writings for yourself. The Didache is a good start. Of course you're going to get some lashing out from demon-filled individuals like >>7803 because Satan hates nothing more than the Truth. Of course, I assume that you have read the Bible cover-to-cover so as board owner you have the responsibility to be spiritually discerning and not enable Satan to use the Word as a weapon against you like he did against Jesus Christ in the wilderness.

>>7820

>>7821

>>7822

>>7825

What does this have to do with the question of if the SDAs are trinitarian or not?

>>7820

This is an excellent post. I have one criticism only

>all nationalities, races, ethnic groups, and Christian religious denominations

Should be "of all nationalities, races, ethnic groups, and Christian religious denominations"

>>7804

Interesting that you have no answer.

>>7813

Please show me the scripture that says not to "swear".

>>7824

I don't need to, we already have this loony "Christian" board.

>>7825

And yet again, still no actual scripture to support the heretical worship of a false god called "the holy spirit".

>>7838

Good job, you have blasphemed the Holy Ghost.

>>7839

Agreed. I think I'm done with this board, "free-speech" is not a virtue rather pursuing the Truth is a Christian virtue. On top of that, the board owner seems to be an 18-year old (that, or spiritually immature).

>>7838

>Please show me the scripture that says not to "swear".

James 3:6-12

>>7839

The holy ghost is not God. God is the Father and the Son. The holy ghost is a messenger, a helper of the Lord's. It is not the Lord. There's a whole handy thread where you could provide scripture to prove the holy ghost is God, you should do that. Nobody else on this crazy heretical board has been able to, so if you could you would be their hero.

>>7844

That says nothing about "swearing", it is about cursing people. Words like shit and fuck have nothing to do with it.

>>7840

>Pursuing the Truth is a Christian virtue.

>Free-Speech bad.

Pick one. And if you're bugged by people obviously arguing in bad faith or engaging in mental gymnastics, just ignore them, hide them or the thread, and move on with your life.

Seventh day Adventists are trinitarian, they're just trinitarian heretics. If we're going to call copticsChristian then seventh day adventists certainly are within the parameters.

It's just a flag anyway.

They're much more theologically conservative than mainline Protestantism too.

>>7845

>>7839

>>7838

Take it to the other thread >>7311

>>7820

Google says this is a creed from "trunews"

>2 sacraments

Who would this please? Baptists say there are 2 ordinances and zero sacraments, Roman Catholics and others say there are 7 sacraments. Not helpful.

>>7852

>Take it to the other thread

It is also the subject of this thread.

>>7854

>It is also the subject of this thread.

From OP:

>It seems there's been a debate around here about whether or not we should have an SDA flag on the board. This is a thread for discussing that question

If you actually want to have directed intelligent debate, go there. If you keep it up here we'll know you're just hungry for attention.

>>7847

That's not the point, the point is Seventh-Day Adventists should not be equated with all the other Christian groups because they are not Christian. By that logic, we should also let Branch Davidians of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church have their own flag too.

>>7857

From OP:

>We are defining Christian broadly and in the most basic, historic way: affirming the doctrine of the trinity.

That is neither broadly nor the most basic way to define Christian. A Christian is already defined in scripture. Someone who has faith in the Christ and follows his teachings. If you can point to a passage from the bible that says you must commit idolatry to be a Christian, then please provide it.

>>7858

My mistake. I misread you as referring to free speech in general. I too agree that SDA's having their own flag here is bad idea due to the implicit endorsement that comes with it, even if the board owner and others say there is no explicit endorsement. There's a good reason why the Gnostic flag (and even the "Esoteric Christian" flag that was just Gnostic flag 2.0) was removed from /christ/.

>>7869

It's too late. There's already a thread denying Hell and by extension the Bible. Denial of Hell is a core belief of Seventh-Day Adventistism.

It just irks me seeing their heretical flag side-by-side with Martin Luther's protestantism. Oh well.

>>7880

>It just irks me seeing their heretical flag side-by-side with Martin Luther's protestantism. Oh well.

Nothing about seeing Lutheranism side by side with the Roman church? You're being inconsistent.

Honestly stop whining. Tell the hell denier he's wrong and why. Tell the BO why SDAs are not trinitarian if you can.

Make a thread entirely devoted to exposing the heresies of adventism if you want. Nobody is stopping you, you just want to poo poo about a tiny logo that you can just ignore. They're not even visible on any chan Android apps.

Make a different board with your preferred rule set if you're incapable of presenting a consistent argument to the mods here.

>>7896

We Adventists are just as Christian as you are. Why are you encouraging starting a thread just to persecute us?

>>7943

Truth does not fear investigation

>>8096

This.

If the SDAs are allowed here, there's no reason not to have Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons on here.

>>8096

>>8097

Suspicious vpn samefag

Are you arguing that the bad translation proves that their doctrine is non trinitarian? How do you account for their public affirmation of the Trinity?

You're also advocating the banning of heretics which is precisely against the point of the board. Mormons, JWs, SDAs, and Muslims can all post and it is not the job of the moderator to stop them on the basis of speaking heresy.

We are debating the removal of a flag.

>>8097

That is an ugly slippery slope, everyone is technically allowed, but not all should be recognized as christian.

>>8098

>Suspicious vpn samefag

Try responding to my actual post.

>Are you arguing that the bad translation proves that their doctrine is non trinitarian?

It's their internal literature and yes it proves it because they are targeting key scriptures and changing them proving they have a motivation. There's no reason to add all that extra text if you agree with it. They do similar things all over scripture to insert their doctrines on hell, sabbath, etc. This is all motivated changes. Including targeting such scripture as "I and my Father are one."

Since they didn't believe it, they had to make it say something else to explain their doctrine to their inner membership. Nowadays this stuff is out in the open, but in the early cult environment they could keep it secret and claim different things publically.

>You're also advocating the banning of heretics which is precisely against the point of the board.

If someone made an anti-trinity bait thread, they were deleted. Even in the previous form of the old board. This was concurrent with not letting people have gnostic or other such flags. Also a lot of times this type of post (especially thread OP's) was done by crossposters certain other boards as well. Those were always removed because they broke the old rule 4.

>"Non-Christians are welcome to post here, and are encouraged to ask questions in good faith. But they cannot proselytize non-Christian beliefs or post antagonistic or otherwise scandalous material."

>We are debating the removal of a flag.

Ok. And I'm still allowed to bring up exactly what the old board used to do. If you don't want to be a place for christian discussion but merely a vague religion board then I don't think you'll succeed in the same way either, and I'm allowed to say so. By actually including the flag, (which is what I've already been arguing against), you've guaranteed that this isn't the same situation that we had before and this place will probably die. You can probably see why by taking a look at /christ/

>>8100

We are deviating from old /christian/, and that's a good thing. It was an arbitrary and censorious system that was just abused less than it is now.

This board removes that possibility as long as BO and mods abide by the precedent.

I've read you use this talking point before, but calling this flag the start of a slippery slope to replicating /christ/ doesn't follow. /christ/ has no defining characteristics to set it apart from /christian/ and has just never been an active board.

Your argument about the SDA Church leadership holding a secret non trinitarian doctrine is entirely conjecture.

>>8102

>It was an arbitrary and censorious system that was just abused less than it is now.

No, they actually changed all the rules to allow them to remove whatever they wanted. The old rule-set is what got the board to where it was. If you want another dead board then being an SDA advocate will definitely get you it. And I will definitely not be helping you out.

>but calling this flag the start of a slippery slope to replicating /christ/ doesn't follow.

Yeah it does because all of those cults are the same.

>/christ/ has no defining characteristics to set it apart from /christian/ and has just never been an active board.

It has gnostic and anti-trinitarian threads and flags for those positions, just as this one does.

>Your argument about the SDA Church leadership holding a secret non trinitarian doctrine is entirely conjecture.

There's no secret about it, not anymore. It's in their corrupted bible that I just linked: >>7500

Again if you were one of them from the start I never had any expectation you would stop pretending you weren't in a cult. Otherwise, you can now clearly see how they attack the doctrines about Jesus' divinity here: >>7500

But if you were one of them I wasn't expecting you to be convinced.

So far ITT, the only argument that the SDA church is non-trinitarian is here:

>>8096

The argument is that a Bible translation by SDA is non-trinitarian.

It turns out that the CWB is a Bible paraphrase that was written by an Adventist, but not endorsed by the denomination.

>The Clear Word Bible is not produced, nor endorsed by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but is the private enterprise of an individual. The Adventist Church does not use the Clear Word edition, which includes passages from Ellen G. White’s writings, for its worship services and Bible studies around the world, but quotes from well known and well accepted Bible translations in the various languages. In the English language for example, the church uses the King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, the New American Bible, [sic] [recte New American Standard Bible] the New International Version, and others

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clear_Word

see the reference on wikipedia to original source

So, we don't have to investigate whether or not that translation is compatible with trinitarianism, because it doesn't reflect the doctrine of their church.

This is not a sufficient argument that the SDA's are not trinitarian.

Please stay on topic. We are not discussing a creed for the board, or what the parameters should be to define as "Christian" for a flag, in this thread. The goal is to identify whether or not SDA's are trinitarian, and we are presuming so until proven otherwise.

>>8333

Look, if you were one of them all along, one of those cultists, I wasn't expecting you to be convinced. But if you aren't one, please keep in mind that this is an official publication of SDA as an organization.

>So, we don't have to investigate whether or not that translation is compatible with trinitarianism, because it doesn't reflect the doctrine of their church.

It says on the back of the Clear Word that the author, Jack J. Blanco, is the chair of the religion department of Southern Adventist University near Chattanooga, Tennessee.

I mean come on folks, it's written by the chairman of the religion department at a major establishment SDA university. It's an officially produced translation carrying the official stamp of approval in its doctrinal statements, as it says on the back of its own cover. It was published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association, an official arm of the SDA denomination.

This was all planned out to be deniable in this exact way to the general public (similar to how talmudists deny to unwitting goyim their adherence to the talmud) while being seen as official and authoritative within the cult. That's why the chair of the religion department wrote it and the official oldest institution of SDA published it. And of course it's sold as such in their own bookstores. It's as official as it gets. And ONLY they use it. Only if it might be held accountable to them in some way will anyone try to distance themselves from it, because that's all part of the survival strategy, the outward shell.

They added books to their Bible, written by a woman called Ellen G. White whom only they follow. How is this in any way related to Christianity? It's not any more than Mormonism is. They have the same survival strategy. Hide their core doctrines to the outside. And their official publication which they can no longer hide proves that they worship a false god.

Only someone who is completely demoralized and unable to see the facts as they are would think any part of this is in any way normal and not cultlike. I didn't even need to write more than the first post to prove it. >>7500

>>8341

I'm not an adventist.

Your narrative is tenuous. It is based on your ability to ascribe intent to all those people involved. This does not satisfy the challenge to prove they are non-trinitarian, it only gives cause for suspicion.

Once again, we are not deciding whether or not they are orthodox, we are only asking if they are trinitarian. This is an imageboard, not a church. The posters here hold mutually exclusive theological positions with each other.

>>8333

>Please stay on topic. We are not discussing a creed for the board, or what the parameters should be to define as "Christian" for a flag, in this thread

That's exactly the point that needs to be discussed, your definition of Christian is not sufficient because Seventh-Day Adventists are considered "Christian" under your label which obviously they are not.

>>8374

Go to meta

>>581

>>8391

This is the second time I've been told to go to another thread, only to be redirected to yet another thread.

Fuck this board.

>>8411

Learn how to use the catalog then

>>8447

You're not in any position to say what's mature with profanity like that

Mormons believe in the Trinity, can we have our own flags?

>>8096

I agree with this tbh. I fear that gnostic larpers and other heretics could kill the board before it gets off the ground. I think the BO won't budge on this though so I can only hope it won't end up being too much of a problem.

>>9167

Mormons believe in the Trinity. That is what the board owner said what constitutes a Christian. Now give us our flag.

>>9253

Piss off with your pantheistic nonsense

I bet you're just a false-flagging butthurt /christian/ janny anyway