/christianity/ - Christian Theology & Philosophy

>>4091

Why don't you think that the indwelling by the spirit happened at the point of salvation?

Romans 8:11 NASB — But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Doesn't this seem to say that salvation requires the presence of the spirit?

>>4093

>Doesn't this seem to say that salvation requires the presence of the spirit?

Sorry, I'm not a theologian, just a layman describing his experience.

>>4097

Everyone is a theologian

I'm telling you that what you're perceiving doesn't line up with what the Bible says.

>>4098

>Everyone is a theologian

I might consider myself a theologian, when studied theology, currently I'm not even baptized yet.

>I'm telling you that what you're perceiving doesn't line up with what the Bible says.

So you think the gift the apostles received on Pentecost (Acts 8:15-17) is required to get salvation and everyone else goes to hell?

>>4100

No. Those spiritual gifts have ceased.

I'm saying that everyone who is saved receives the spirit at that point.

Are you saying that there are people who are saved but not indwelled, so they won't be resurrected?

>>4101

>No. Those spiritual gifts have ceased.

Which is what I thought, too. Then I got proven wrong by the Lord.

>everyone who is saved receives the spirit at that point.

I think we are talking about different things here.

You know for sure when you received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, because it's absolutely obvious to yourself and others in your vicinity. It's not a gift "everyone" gets, because you need to explicitly ask for it, might still not get and if you get, deal with the consequences.

Recently I had a nice evening with three other candidates for baptism and the pastor in church.

Things I learned:

1. The pastor has strong principles and stands firm on the ground of credobaptism. I interpret this as a good sign - theologically he is not the "everything goes" type. This is what I was looking for after converting.

2. Experiencing the persistent presence of God is an undeserved gift by the Lord not everyone receives (as I already figured out on my own). But I can use it to help others in reaffirming their faith by testifying.

3. Some people are many, many years with the parish, but postpone their baptism much longer than me as a previous heathen. For me it's not even a question to show my obedience to God.

All attendees including the pastor were convinced, that they already knew me from way before Easter - kind of like a deja-vu. Thing is: I hid like a hermit at home and never ever visited church before Good Friday this year. That testimonial felt kind of supernatural.

NoFap update: I'm on day 25 now. Social anxiety and feeling of awkwardness are completely gone. I sat next to a ravishingly beautiful young lady, who could sing like an angel, during the whole evening and I wasn't intimidated the slightest. And the best thing: absolutely no impure thoughts. I could appreciate God's amazing creation and at the same time see the regular imperfect human, make eye contact and converse like a normal person.

This is tremendous progress. I never expected this outcome and huge transformation from my decision to devote my life to the Lord Jesus Christ. Glory to God in the highest!

>>4105

Prove all of these from the Bible

>It's not a gift "everyone" gets

>you need to explicitly ask for it

>might still not get

>>4145

See Luke 11:13 and 1 Corinthians 12:11

>>4148

>1 Corinthians 12:11

This verse is being utilized out of context here. The preceding verses, 1 Conrinthians 12:1-10, are about the diversity of gifts given by the Holy Spirit. In other words, "distributing to each person as He wills" is about who gets which specific gifts that are beneficial to the Body of Christ as a whole: such as wisdom, healing, different kinds of languages, faith, miracles, etc. It's about how everyone gets gifts that are unique to that individual, depending on God's will for that person, not about who gets the Holy Spirit period.

>>4136

>3. Some people are many, many years with the parish, but postpone their baptism much longer than me as a previous heathen. For me it's not even a question to show my obedience to God.

Be careful not to fall into pride or judgement of others based on this. Remember the Parable of the Vineyard Workers from Matthew 20:1-16. People come to Christ and are sanctified at different rates, depending on God's will. Some get saved at 5 years old, and some don't get saved until they are 90 years old and on their death bed.

>>4161

As Christians we don't judge each other. It's up to God to judge.

I just learned that some Christians postpone baptism, despite believing in Christ and going to church. I have yet to understand that.

I'm the learner here, not the teacher or judge. As the fallible beginner I am I won't get everything right on the first try.

>>4148

1 Cor 12 is saying that people receive different spiritual gifts, but EVERYONE receives at least one

1 Corinthians 12:7 NASB — But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

This chapter is counter to your argument. It is saying that everyone who is saved has the spirit, and the spirit distributes gifts as a result of his indwelling.

>Luke 11:13 NASB — “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your fnheavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

Which if your premises does this prove? The question asked is identical with the request for salvation.

>>4163

>1 Cor 12 is saying that people receive different spiritual gifts, but EVERYONE receives at least one

And what is with numerous followers of Jesus, who didn't receive at least one spiritual gift? Do they suddenly stop existing?

>>4167

How did you conclude that they exist? Are you using anecdotal evidence as a counter to what the Bible says?

>>4169

>How did you conclude that they exist?

"Everyone" is a universal quantifier.

Universal quantifiers have the great property, that they can be disproved by only one example.

>>4170

I know, but I'm not making the claim of "everyone" on my own authority. It is directly lifted from the Bible, which is inerrant.

>>4171

>I know, but I'm not making the claim of "everyone" on my own authority. It is directly lifted from the Bible, which is inerrant.

So when we see at least one believer and follower of Jesus Christ, who didn't receive a spiritual gift and testified about it, what concludes from that?

1. The word of God is incorrect.

2. Our fallible human understanding of the word of God is incorrect.

>>4172

3. That person has a gift but doesn't know it

4. That person isn't actually saved

>>4173

When I'm in doubt about if a fellow Christian is saved, I ask the Lord Himself about it. Depending on the answer, I pray for them accordingly.

>>4174

Are you saying that you receive direct prophecy from the Lord

>>4162

Fair enough; just making sure and watching out for you, and I pray the same for you to watch out for me.

As for this:

>I just learned that some Christians postpone baptism, despite believing in Christ and going to church. I have yet to understand that.

It could be due to any number of factors. One thing to consider is that in 1 Conrinthians 12:1-10, there are several different gifts listed, like miracles, wisdom, healing, languages, etc. All of these require faith in Christ as a prerequisite. Yet in the same passage, faith is listed as it's own unique gift apart from the others. Why? More than likely because some people are gifted with a greater faith then others, and even then, that faith can vacillate at times.

Peter boldly walked on water, and then sank as soon as some doubt creeped in. He denied Christ three times, and then went on to become one of the most important and preeminent apostles. Paul went from being a murderous persecuting Pharisee, to writing most of the epistles of the New Testament almost overnight. Yet even he, at one point, "despaired for life itself" after this experience ( 2 Corinthians 1:8) Some, like the Centurion and the woman with a never-ending blood flow where healed just by hearing Jesus' guarantee or just by touching the hem of his garment. Some blind men were healed just by hearing his words. Yet some needed to see and experience miracles. The father with the demon possessed spastic boy famously said "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:24.) There was also a blind man who was healed gradually little by little rather than instantly, due to his weaker faith (Mark 8:22-26)

So faith could be an issue. It could also be a matter of them feeling an urge to understand their denomination and history of Christianity inside out before the feel comfortable to join, such as due to a bad experience from just jumping into a previous church that had bad theology or other problems. Sometimes it can be a case of cultural Christianity. Or it could be God holding them back because they are not quite ready yet. There are many many X factors to consider. Ultimately only God can judge the heart for sure.

>>4175

>Are you saying that you receive direct prophecy from the Lord

I receive useful, non-arbitrary answers from the living God to many (not all) of my questions brought up in prayer on various ways, sometimes immediately, sometimes later than I expect.

My in understanding, the gift of prophecy goes far beyond that.

>>4176

>So faith could be an issue. It could also be a matter of them feeling an urge to understand their denomination and history of Christianity inside out before the feel comfortable to join, such as due to a bad experience from just jumping into a previous church that had bad theology or other problems.

The fellow brought up a story about being an outcast at their village church, because their parents were from a different denomination unlike the rest of the village, which was obviously the reason, why no baptism happened in the first place.

I just begin to realize the grace of having found such a welcoming, non-judging parish at literally the first try. I think that was the actual lesson I got told that evening.

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction, brother. God bless you.

>>4175

Just one practical example, because you were asking:

In the other (more Catholic) board, a desperate Anon who has a 10 years civil marriage got denied absolution from his priest, because he didn't convalidate his marriage in church. The priest asked him to leave his wife and stop cohabiting.

I prayed for for this Anon and asked the Lord about this sad spiritual guidance and His will.

He answered with "one flesh" and then the literal words of Mark 10:9. ("What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.") in my native language. I knew it was from the Bible, but I had to search for the place, because I didn't know where (no, I had not ready to go bookmark around).

So it became clear to me, that God sees one flesh already and that the "man" trying to separate it, is the priest, who is in sin by doing so.

I slowly start to understand how Luther got driven into posting theses onto church doors.

>>4196

Supernatural recall of what the Bible says is fine, but claiming to be receiving additional prophecy is not.

When someone says "God told me I should marry you", you run away from that person.

>>4198

>"God told me I should marry you"

I don't think that is proper prophecy, because it contains a "should".

In my heathen past I very sparingly used my gift and I don't remember precise examples anymore. It was also pretty useless for people listening to me, because it was all inter-mingled with my personal opinion, back then I couldn't separate it (how without knowing the Lord?)

Let me make up an example similar enough to what I experienced:

Let's say we talk about you looking for a new job unsuccessfully and are on the brink of giving up. While exchanging ideas and giving my fallacious human advice, I get an sudden inspiration like "Your next interview is going to fail as well, but it opens a door to a place where you never looked." Because this sounds useful, I immediately decide to speak it out literally. It is still drowned in all the other advice/opinions of myself and you will say: "Thank you for comforting me" and don't think anything special about it. Weeks later you might remember it and call back: "You were right, this is exactly how it happened". Only then I was able to separate the inspiration retro-actively from my own thoughts.

Meanwhile I converted to Christianity, got to know the Lord and learned listening to Him. And I stopped giving fallacious advice to people. So the next time I receive good news for someone, it might actually be useful…

>>4199

If you're now taking about receiving a spiritual gift BEFORE you're saved, you're totally beyond biblical orthodoxy. Start over and study what the Bible says.

Deuteronomy 18:10 NASB — “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,…"

systematic theology easy mode:

Carm.org

Gotquestions.org

>>4200

Yes, I definitely received gifts, before I got converted. For example seven years ago I got gifted the seed to this (foreign) language, I'm now using to talk to you, because due to circumstances I left high school without it. I know it was a spiritual gift, because I started understanding it over night (very basic, not C2 level)

Without this gift and the ability to nourish it through the following years I could never talked to you guys on 4ch/8ch, I would have never heard about the Good News and would have never picked up the Bible.

The most interesting thing about my unfolding story is, that it didn't start with conversion, there was a long prelude leading up to it.

>>4208

> I definitely received gifts, before I got converted.

is that compatible with what the bible says?

>>4212

What does the Bible tell about my present life?

>>4219

You're avoiding the point that your claim on supernatural powers is incompatible with scripture

>>4222

>You're avoiding the point that your claim on supernatural powers is incompatible with scripture

First: Only God has supernatural powers and uses them, no human gets them. When God provides you with an inspiration about His plan, it's Him acting on you, not your "superpower".

You are claiming that the Almighty had no power over me until I recognized Him as my Lord and savior, because your interpretation of Scripture says otherwise?

I simply know it was Him and that He was with me my whole life, intervened at various occasions, and sometimes even listened to my undirected, non-serious prayers (that's the difference between agnostic not knowing Christ and an full-blown atheist).

That relationship got "upgraded", when I finally picked up the Bible and made a honest promise to repent and stop perpetual sinning.

I even got a "preview" of baptism as a young child, when some night I fainted on a landing stage and plunged backwards into water fully clothed. (Suddenly waking up fully submerged is something you never forget.) The adults told me that I was really lucky, that there wasn't a boat parked there at that night, which would have caused serious injury.

>>4224

It seems that you're not interested in revaluating what you believe against what I'm trying to share with you about what the Bible says. You told me you practice divination, as a heathen and now as a Christian. Please repent.

I do not care about what you think you're experiencing as far as it is inconsistent with scripture.

>>4226

>You told me you practice divination, as a heathen and now as a Christian. Please repent.

I just inadvertently forwarded inspiration as a heathen, because I didn't know it actually existed and I could not distinguish it from my own ideas (How?).

Did I do divination? Never. Why should I?

>I do not care about what you think you're experiencing as far as it is inconsistent with scripture.

When the Lord speaks to humans in the Bible through various ways it's consistent, and when the Lord tells me His will (and I happily recognize and perform it instead of rejecting it), it's inconsistent with Scripture? What?

When the Lord Jesus talks to Saul in Acts 9, did Saul believe in Jesus as the Lord and was already saved before that happened? Or did he make the deliberate choice to convert afterwards?

I honestly try to understand your point, but you're talking in riddles.

>>4229

Let me explain my point more simply. I'm not meaning to be figurative at all.

You say that before conversion you would "receive inspiration" about the future: that is explicitly divination.

You say it was a spiritual gift, but that is impossible before salvation.

There is a good argument that prophecy can still exist by Christians, but I'm one who rejects it (cessationism). Saul was physically met by Jesus, and he was a prophet (as Paul) since he wrote scripture.

I'm trying to push you to refine your theology on this topic by finding your reasoning, and all I'm seeing are anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims about how God interacts with us. Like I said, this is giving me a feeling that our conversation isn't productive.

>>4237

Are you by any chance Catholic-Orthodox?

That would explain all the needless confusion.

Just a reminder: The Lord isn't bound to your church's rules.

My pastor (graduated theologian) understands my journey and that's good enough for me.

>>4254

Im evangelical

My pastor (graduated theologian) would tell you what I've been saying

Are you Pentecostal?

>>4255

>Are you Pentecostal?

This an interesting question, because I'm not part of any denomination yet. As you might have guessed from the thread, I still have to be baptized (with water so to speak) and join a parish.

The Lord Himself (and nobody else) lead me to a small Baptist church, not to a Pentecostal one. It seems, the Lord doesn't care much about theological specifics and puts me where He needs me most to build His kingdom.

Even when I figure out, that a charismatic parish would fit my personal preferences better, it's the Lord's choice where I end up, not my own. It's His will I obey and no human will talk me out of it.

Was on another recreational activity in church: Few people meeting up voluntarily to watch movies, making music, singing songs and eating together.

The lady from >>4136 came about and told me, that she likes having me around. Guess I made some new friends, easing the choice of the seat row I end up in worship service next.

Note: This Anon used to be someone, anyone could barely tolerate (including his family), who used to sit in the corner alone in any social context before leaving in shame and never return again.

But somehow the Lord Jesus transformed the trainwreck described in OP into a likable person using NoFap. Absolutely incredible.

Another worship service: Singer lady became a recurring character in my story, appeared in the lobby before service and invited me to the front row. I boldly agreed, Though nobody else moved up to the front, so I was sitting just with her in front of the whole congregation. Great! Exactly the thing shy Anon needs (am I still the same person described in the OP?)

It looks like once I mastered a challenge, God throws in the next one with higher difficulty.

Though it went unexpectedly well. While the flesh was weak and started sweating, the mind stayed crystal-clear. No anxiety at all, no nervousness, completely collected and relaxed, feeling great while the body tried the hardest to go into panic mode.

The whole experience turned out great with the band right in front, while having an amazing voice singing right next to me, praising the Lord the whole time. Thank you, Lord, this was absolutely incredible. Oh, and the lady struggled with staying upright when standing up for prayer and even commented on it. Seems she was a little bit overwhelmed after being next to Anon for over an hour.

And then after service, out of the blue, one band member came along and asked if I'm with her. If she brought me newbie with her to church he meant, but his wording was confusing, so I got confused for a split second, before explaining the situation in a completely relaxed manner. I just remember when getting surprise questions in the past, I had appropriate answers about one minute after the conversation finished (aka crashed). Not anymore.

>>4136

>>4308

>>4349

Oh Lord, I just realized how this "accident" all my fault.

I just remembered how as a new convert around Christmas 2017 I essentially described the Lord exactly this companion:

>Bible-believing Christian

>no baggage

>prime age to gift Him many children

>beautiful

>musically gifted

My understanding back then was, when I pray for what is essentially

>make anime real

I possibly might grab some consolation price somewhere around five years later.

Hello? Who could have expected that the most unrealistic prayer ever is going to be answered this literally and this quick? I'm so not ready for it…

Lesson to learn for you, Anon: Always be wary of what you ask for…

how do i unsubscribe from this blog

>>4363

You pray to the Lord, that He may gift you wisdom, so you can find the [-] button on this thread.

However what were you looking for on /christianity/ then?

What do you dislike about testimonials of the Lord Jesus Christ being alive, that He loves us so much, that He heals even the worst sinners with His endless grace and is doing good round the clock?

>>3482

>>4361

Quick update: There is mutual attraction and a talented, beautiful schoolgirl just fell in love with me.

It's true - the Lord just made anime real.

Faith can do miracles.

Blog update: I officially joined my parish. I was unanimously voted in.

The romantic side-plot I never planned for also continued to develop. Last week I dressed up a little bit before meeting my schoolgirl at church and she promptly started mentioning her boyfriend repeatedly testing my reaction. There was not a single reason to do so, because I still have not made any explicit advances at all. She inadvertently revealed her intentions by her behavior. :->

Of course I kept my frame without blinking an eye. On the next day she honored that by wearing a flower dress in rather cold weather and being the nicest person ever.

So it seems, despite being in a strictly chaste environment, for her the game is on now.

This Pentecost I got baptized by full submersion. It was a surreal experience. Entering the congregation in my white robe with everyone standing up felt a little bit like getting married.

Then I had to sit through the first part of the service, while the tension slowly built up.

After entering the font and declaring Jesus as my Lord and savior I started dazing and I was completely stunned when I emerged again.

After changing into my regular clothes, I got showered with gifts by various parish members.

What a day, glory to the Lord!

found this on page 25 and thought it worthy of a bump

May God bless and keep you, brother. Hearing your story has helped me on a sad and lonely night. Thank you.

Holy anointing oil ingredients?

Ancient stone carvings of Tree of Life resemble what plant?

How was the oil used? How much?

Tree of knowledge stone carvings? Paintings? Stained glass windows in churches?

Good search tool https://www.sacred-texts.com/