/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>818959

They reject the incarnate, living God, in favor of some distant, abstract, fan-fiction entity that can't even interact with his creation directly, imagined up by a pedophile prophet who thought he was being instructed by demons (ironically true).

Suppose you believe Muhammad's word. Then you would believe the Qu'ran, according to Surah Al-Haqqah (69) verses 43-46:

>[It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand; then We would have cut from him the aorta.

On the other hand, as narrated by Aisha in Sahih al-Bukhari, Hadith 4428:

>The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O `Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."

Therefore, the Prophet's prophecy that God would cut his aorta if he was a false prophet became true. Therefore we reach a contradiction, because if you believe in the Prophet, you should also believe he's a false prophet. The only logical conclusion is that he was a false prophet.

They say Jesus wasn't crucified, which begs the question as to why would the Quran, a book written 600 years after the nativity and hundred of miles away from Palestine, be considered more trustworthy than the Gospels, written by four different people that personally knew Jesus.

Just learn about the lives of the founders of both religions and take note of the timeline. The United States hasn't even been a country for 250 years and Muhammad came 600 years after Jesus in a different part of the world. Muhammad claims to be a prophet and his followers believe him to be the "spirit of truth" – rather than the Holy Spirit in the Bible.

Muhammad and Jesus. Who do you want to follow? How did their closest followers live their lives afterwards? One founder ruled in love and humility all the way to his death–the other by sword. Followers from both sides are susceptible to falling into sin, but don't you see the difference in way of you're encouraged to follow God with respect to Sharia Law versus a Christian Country?

1 Corinthians 1 is a great to meditate on.

1 Corinthians 1:20-1:23 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified

My only question is what gives muslims their assurance in denying the existence of Christ? How can they believe he didn't exist or was not God among us?

>>819098

Why?

>>818959

Can you show the court on the doll where /islam/ touched you?

>>818959

As long as they believe that Qur'an is the absolute word of God - not inspired, but the perfect word directly from the Almighty - then it's going to be nearly impossible to debunk anything to them. Basically, the people who already don't believe it aren't going to believe it less and the people who are absolute believers aren't going to change their minds.

>>819102

It's what Mohammed told them.

Satanic verses

>https://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles.htm

/thread

islam is big gay but

quran is nestorian

>>825142

That's a lie and you know it.

>>825151

It's Gnostic + Jewish.

https://islammeetsorthodoxy.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/gnostic-influence-on-the-quran/

>>819117

That was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing it. I've studied Islam in the context of medieval history, so I'm by no means an expert, but from what I know, I agree with that anon. It has to be said that Caliph Uthman's version of the Quran was accepted by every Muslim, even those who directly opposed him, so it's probably quite faithful to Mohammed's "revelations".

That anon also talks mainly about Mohammed, but it's worth reading too about the four Rightly Guided Caliphs. They were every bit as horrible as Mohammed himself, and their "golden reign" was a blood-bath full of treason and intrigues. Absolutely despicable.

>>818959

I'm going off a tangent here, but: if the objective is to avoid someone joining islam, just have him read about it's history, the life of Mohammed and how it started spreading. The beginnings of Islam, the writing down of the Quran, the character of Mohammed, the first caliphs… it's all the most unholy stuff one can think of, driven by the most low and worldly instincts. It's a hard contrast to Christianity's early history of sacrifice and pure love and devotion.

If you want to convert Muslims, I suggest you try a more gentle approach. Teach them about Christianity, feign interest when they talk about Islam and pretend their stuff somehow enlightens you. Make it as if you trade information back and forwards, tell them about the incredible men and women of the early Church and sprinkle questions aimed to make them realize the evils of Islam, disguised, of course, as genuine interest about their faith. The contrast between both religions should become, with time, apparent to everyone but the most fanatic.

If you just talk to Muslims to insult them all you can achieve is feeling like you pwnd some mudslims with facts and logick. If you want actual fruits, put a pincer on your nose, be nice and endure their crap. You catch more flies with honey than with shit.

>>818959

https://culturewars.com/news/jewish-origins-of-islam

The Jewish Origins of Islam

Acts17Apologetics talks about this topic

>>819044

Because "Allah is the greatest of decievers"

And that's a good thing!

I suggest you go on youtube and search "christian prince" and you will get great content of a christian arab going through the quran and hadith to show you the islamic faith in an uncensored fashion

here is his youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOllN2W9yT4ZYaSgTkqzhhg

>>825267

david wood knows nothing about reality

>>825286

Also Cira International https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5zGnPFoN5LjAsxU8ESiBMw

Saudi Muslim now Christian.

>>818959

Doesn't allah have a wife or something?

Been speaking to muslims.

And my god they simply cannot take an L or a no for an answer

https://invidio.us/ZyizRJwnIkQ

https://invidio.us/9a4g7W_vRjU

https://invidio.us/I7OgZRPgigM

God told Moses he'd bless good offspring. The Jews obviously were, but so were the Muslims. They have oil. Setting that aside, Muslims have nothing to brag about. They have limitless land, but nothing productive. They have almost limitless oil, yet most Arab countries are awful and have nothing beyond oil. They war constantly and couldn't figure out a successor before Muhammad died, and they fought each other since with no peace. They lack everything a true follower of God should have and parade their lack of blessings around like it's a war medal when it's really a badge of shame.

>>833859

>God told Moses he'd bless good offspring. The Jews obviously were, but so were the Muslims.

No, it means spiritual, not physical offspring.

Galatians 3

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

>>833863

I guess that's Abraham not Moses, but i don't remember that promise being to Moses

>>833863

Yeah it was Abraham, I was exhausted when I posted it. But that being said, is only the one son blessed and not Ishmael? If not, then why has their wealth not been a blessing?

>>818959

Allah will replace you!

>>833900

>>833900

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 224 :

Narrated by Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings)."

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 225 :

Narrated by Abu Huraira

The Prophet said, "The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight." Sufyan said more than once, "The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight is (that of) a man calling himself king of kings." Sufyan said, "Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by 'The king of kings' is 'Shahan Sha

You were saying?

>>833859

Muhummad actually claims descent from Hagar, and the LORD says of Hagar's son and descendants "And he shall be a wild ass of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren."

so uh.

>>833920

>>833914

>>833916

we can see if you SameFargo, don't do that

>>833922

I know they are id's anon I am simply adding onto what I previously lostedm

Also I found muhammad beheading a guy for being accused of plagarization, they had a resurrection thing for Jesus before they took it off, an abrogation to "fix" Muhammad's mistake, so much scientific errors and only science is right if it agrees with the qu'ran, propaganda from it's own sites and instructions on how to engage with Christians and apostasy laws being an essential to it's survival according to some imam and older bible manuscripts found and no mention of any new prophets, unironically and stupidly think paul created Christianity even though they were still Christians and historians laugh at that claim, shroud of Jesus, trying to twist which makes an assertion the bible is true and the qu ran reaffirms the bible and torah, and last but not least, the dead sea scrolls is the same and proves some things happening in the torah happened only defense they have is resorting to lying or playing dumb being oblivious or twisting words or make it all about metaphors when their is not a lot of context of the qu'ran in the first place and butchering storie, in denial or tries to attack the bible (mostly old testament) trying to say a trinity or unity is out of possibility and how Jesus dies if his god or using tu qouqe or exact wording fallacy despite the explanation can easily be said that the human body Jesus was in died and not his divine nature, which if you think about it is not far fetched of what an omnipotent being is able to do and they limit allah like praying to Muhammad or other flaws.

Islam is just a sect of Gnostic Christianity.

>>835771

Isn't it nestorian with jews tempering with the book and the (forgot nation likely turkey or syria) government changing things around and try covering it up?

>>835774

With fatawah

>>835774

I think you're right. I feel like I remember that from a longer thread on this subject some time back. I wish I would have saved some of the posts.

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/257615926/

Also can anybody question why the quran verse of muhammad saying the holy trinity is god, son, and mary?

For a blatant mistake like that shouldn't it have made islam as a whole right now debunked?

Or is it because the ignorance of muslims and where they grew up as a result ignores this mistake?

On quran variants

(copy and paste, this isn't mine)

Muslim Debate Strategy

A brief summary of their outright lies, dishonest tactics and chicanery.

Muslim debaters only enter the debate with one motive; convince the other person and the listening audience that Islam is truth or the victim of propaganda and misinformation, regardless of the facts, history, archaeology, antiquity, morality, science , evidence or logic.

Their own faith is not on the line. If they can convince the opposing debater or members of the listening audience, then all well and good, but when they don't, they simply stall, divert or disrupt the discussion and topic, they will change the subject entirely, end it abruptly or raise their voice and get belligerent. All of them never take their failings seriously so as to introspect their own religion, reasonings, evidence or even their own religious texts (Quran/Hadith.) The very lines of reasoning or arguments Muslims use against other faiths or religions are NEVER used introspectively against Islam, Quran or Hadith.

Notice how the Muslim plays the “victim trump card” and cite western “Foreign Policy” as a justification for Muslim violence. More or less ALL Muslims know nothing at all about “foreign policy” but merely repeat it like a “mantra” as an argument winning sound byte. Should this fail, then notice how the Muslim swiftly then proceeds to use the next step, the “Strawman Argument.”

The “straw man” is the tactic of the tv/live debate/interviewed Muslim, to change or deflect the subject entirely by introducing an irrelevant point and then to proceed to break down the irrelevant subject/topic. A typical example for instance would be the discussion dealing with muslim immigration sex crimes like rape and sexual assaults. The Muslim will cite USA or European sex crime statistics and thereby justify the rise of sexual assaults and rape committed by immigrants from Muslim countries as being not islamically related but a feature of society or a “few bad apples,” even if this includes the rape of a boy of 10 in a swimming pool by an immigrant because he had not had sex for 4 months. The blame will also be put on those raped or sexually assaulted as being their own fault for not being dressed modestly. Interesting to note, Muslim immigrants NEVER rape female Muslim immigrants and almost 100% of rape/sexual assault victims are indigenous European Caucasians.

Another method/technique often used by Muslim debaters is to enter the debate with another person claiming how wonderfully scientific/moral/political or how much a victim islam is, so therefor it must be true. The Islamic argument of the so called “scientific knowledge” as ambiguously found in the Quran is nothing short of ludicrous and has been debunked on any and every level available to the point that the Muslim who brings this line of reasoning up merely exposes his obtuse Muslim by rote nature.

When the opposing debater of Islam points out clear errors via science/history, archaeology, antiquity, logic or just the facts or by quoting the Quran/Hadith the Muslim default position is then assumed, such as,

The Quran you quote is a poor translation

The Quran you quote is only 5% accurate in its translation (95% is inaccurate therefor false)

The Hadith you used is false

The Hadith you used is weak

The Hadith you used is taken out of context

Have you learnt Arabic?

Islam can only be understood in Arabic

Do you read Arabic?

Do you read Classical Arabic?

The Quran was revealed in Classical Arabic!

The sura of Quran you quoted is taken out of context!

You hate Islam!

Your islamophobe!

You have been brainwashed!

You are Zionist!

Your a right wing racist

You are illuminati!

You were never real Muslim!

You did not allow Islam to enter your heart!

You learned Islam from the wrong scholars!

You did not offer salat 5 times a day

You get your Islam from Google

You are western foreign policy supporter

You mistranslated the ayat

You miss-interpreted the ayat

You misunderstood the ayat

You do not understand rhetorical devices

You have not studied Arabic etymology, each “root” word can have 10 meanings

Or these could/would be one of the many typical responses

* Totally deny the accusation even if it is a trivial mistake or undermine the argument by citing commonality or comparisons with other cultures/countries (but not religions). Example would be comparing the rape, corruption, alcohol crimes committed in USA compared to islamic countries. How Islam does not eat pork. How Islam treats women with dignity. Yet the fact that FGM, Muslim rape and sex grooming gangs, rise in Muslim male prisoners is irrelevant to the discussion.

* Another tact that is a particular favorite known as make up your own facts. For example when justifying the marriage of 52yr Mohammed to 6yr Aisha and then the sexual intercourse/rape of 9yr Aisha by her 54yr husband mohammed. A Muslim will cite the cultural benefits of early pregnancy or puberty is a sign from Allah for adult male penis penetration or girls mature early in hot climates and so on.

It’s as simple as that. There is rarely any introspection by Muslim debaters or the obtuse Muslim audience who are merely present to see “their guy win.”

The fact that not one debater has ever converted to Islam via a debate testifies to the chicanery, deception and outright mendacious attitude of Muslim apologetics, polemics, debaters or their scholars for dollars. Most of whom in the UK and Europe are mere puppets who appear on news/debate/discussions programs just to feed their own ego’s regardless of integrity, facts, truth or logic.

Using 21st century logic whilst having a discussion with someone trapped in 7th century denial will be as fruitful as trying to derive benefits from the consumption of camel urine. As recommended by Mohammed himself. Or trying to engage in intellectual discussion with a person whose IQ is less than the temperature of your fridge.

Those who choose to discuss ANY subject with a Muslim must be prepared prior that they are dealing with opponent who will employ any if not all the above during the discussion.

If a person is critical of Islam, he is a hater

If a person exposes Islam, he is a hater

If a person challenges Islam, he is a hater

If a person is disgusted by Islam, he is a hater

If a person denies Islam is from God, he is a hater

If a person uses archaeology against Islam, he is a hater

If a person uses history against Islam, he is a hater

If a person uses science against Islam, he is a hater

If a person uses logic against Islam, he is a hater

If a person uses morality against Islam, he is a hater

If a person uses previous scripture against Islam, he is a hater (and the previous scripture is corrupted too ofcourse)

You are right though, I hate Islam.

But then, I’m ex Muslim and apostate so Islam hates me!

Difference is, my hate at your vile religion wont kill you, but your religions hate for me wants me dead, see the difference?

Finally, watch out for these Muslim debate strategy traits too

Tongue tie the opponent

Out shout the opponent

Act like they have already won the discussion

Word salad!

Imma bump this

>>835774

Islamic orthodoxy isn't really nestorian, but the quran definitely has nestorian influences

Why do I need to "debunk" any other religion?

You either have the grace of God and are given faith, or you don't.

You can always pray for faith, grace, forgiveness and to glorify God; even if you are in a state of mortal sin.

Bump for importance

>>818959

I'm baptized since childhood but honestly Christianity is fücking cucked. I'm fücking tired of Christcucks. Islam seems way more based, especially the Taliban. Death to Western liberals.

>>845941

It's not bait. I sympathize more with Judaism and Islam than with Christianity even though I am from a Christian country, and officially baptized, and a paying member of the national church, mostly because I couldn't be bothered to look up how to quit. Christianity only works for people with a small ego, and it structures society in their favor, at the expense of those with a big ego. Instead of punishing women for showing their hair, it punishes the men who are mad that they can't have that woman. Christianity and Western liberalism are synonymous.

>>845942

Consider this post proof that sacralism causes religious apathy and is even detrimental to a persons eternal life

You were never of us and your arguments do not follow. Liberalism is a post Christian movement in europe

>>845943

What the winnie the pooh does sacralism have to do with anything idiot? The church isn't part of the state anymore in my country.

>>845945

>>845944

>>845937

>Is not bait

>I sympathize with Judaism

Is obvious you are baiting bro.

>>845944

>christianity is not the same as liberalism, that came after christianity

at least you can come to one intelligent conclusion in this entire thread.

Bump for importance

>>825300

I smell a prolapsed anus from a pungent odor of BUTTHURT!

>>851332

"Christmas is a pagan holiday and Jesus probably hates you for celebrating it."

- Huey Freeman

>>818959

david wood and apostate prophet

>>818959

muhammad winnie the poohed a child this argument destroys islam

>>851348

Jesus was an incel

>>851332

>. Prophets and God and Sharia (law) that's what I believe

So you believe having your way with children and some degeneracy is A okay along with a man that sinned and was obviously wicked like no other contradicting what came before and their supposed god was fine with it?

I mean nothing about beastiality or gayness in other sources other than he is fine with sin and momo is infallible?

Mate your religion (which does have allah being accuser most of the time) sounds like it came more from satan.

Bump for visibility

>>818959

Threads like this actually stir up discord.

Muslims attempt to say that Baca from Psalm 84:6 is referring to Mecca, however, when you look into where Baca is it's no where near there.

>the village called Xaloth, which lies in the great plain, as far as Bersabe, from which beginning also is taken the breadth of the Upper Galilee, as far as the village Baca, which divides the land of the Tyrians from it; its length is also from Meloth to Thella, a village near to Jordan.

https://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-3.htm

It's in northern Israel, not in Arabia!

>>856685

LOL you are right the valley of baca is now known as valley of hinnom btw.

https://bibleatlas.org/valley_of_hinnom.htm