No.374 [View All]
HI GUYS!
READY FOR BAD TIMES?
____________________________
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No.1883
>>1880
where do we draw the line between "fursuit" and "cosplay"?
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No.1884
>>1883
A fursuit is a fursuit; it doesn't matter if it's an OC or an established character. It's a suit that is made of fur.
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No.1886
>>1884
Real fur? somebody call PETA.
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No.1887
>>1880
>furry-bait game
I always viewed it as having fairy tale status where you can have some humanoid animal people walking around, and there's not even that many of them. Many are like cartoon characters and others are just fucked up random objects. The goats are extremely fairy tale.
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No.2038
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No.2039
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No.3687
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No.3724
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No.4399
ew
>>3724
>Actual Goatfucking
Magical Grown-up Femboy Edgelord Goat Wizards are better.
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No.4423
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No.4424
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No.4425
>>4423
That's the most tumblr shit I've seen in at least a month.
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No.4426
>>4423
I don't see what's wrong, they're just-
>colors
Goat fucking damn it
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No.4428
>>4426
I could understand rainbow colors because of GoHD Asriel boss fight, but why give the goat the other colors I don't know.
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No.4429
>>4428
Tumblr knows no bounds.
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No.4430
>>4428
Why does the agender pride flag in the bottom left look exactly like the grass patch at the start of the game?
What did Toby mean by this?
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No.4438
>>4430
Frisk and Chara are technically genderless in canon, but that's not the same thing. They are supposed to be a reflection of YOU (hence naming the Fallen as your own name) so would be whatever gender you are. They have Schrodinger's Gender; just like the common misconception, the cat isn't ACTUALLY both/neither dead and alive, just in an unknown state until observed. Same with Chara and Frisk; they don't have a gender until you give them one, which is not the same as never having one.
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No.4439
>>4438
That's one way to interpret it, but the game does really try to hammer it in that Frisk is a separate person from you near the end of the pacifist route, and that Chara is a separate person near the end of the genocide route. I think their gender is unspecified. More like their blood types, which are never mentioned at all, than like something you're actually supposed to fill in.
but napstablook is canonically non-binary
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No.4440
>>4439
>Frisk is a separate person from you near the end of the pacifist route, and that Chara is a separate person near the end of the genocide route.
This basically.
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No.4441
>>4439
I didn't say they WERE you, which is also clearly not the case. But there is still a connection, of a sort. Frisk wasn't just designed to appear genderless, but not of any determined race. Doesn't mean they are of NO race (which defies reason), just that any race they might have cannot infringe on the Player's experience as seeing themselves, in a fashion.
In either case, it's still not defined. Being "agender" is defined, which DOES infringe on the Player if they, themselves, are not also agender. So that's not possible.
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No.4442
>>4441
Frisk was designed to appear androgynous - that much was established in Toby's first forum posts introducing the game. Wouldn't that infringe on a player who's not androgynous?
More seriously, the game subverts the blank slate self-insert protagonist by revealing that Frisk has their own identity. Throughout the game there's hints that they have their own taste, in the true lab they're reluctant to do what you say or sometimes even refuse, in the end-game they reveal that they even have a name that's different from the one you chose at the start. It sets you up to view Frisk as yourself at the start, then takes that away at the end.
Frisk could absolutely have a defined gender identity that doesn't match the player's.
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No.4443
>>4442
They probably do, but it never actually mattered during the game.
That being said. wasn't their some official artbook art that Frisk was a girl?
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No.4451
>>4442
>Wouldn't that infringe on a player who's not androgynous?
No, because, again, lack of a definition isn't a definition. Like how being atheist isn't a religion. Androgynous in this context is just "can go either way". As for the rest, the conclusion revealing that Frisk isn't you doesn't really matter, because that's common to nearly every game. I can name Link whatever the hell I want in LtTP, but he's clearly not me. The twist was more that Frisk and Chara were separate, and that the person you were naming at the start wasn't Frisk. Even still, it doesn't change the Player's interpretation for the 99% of the game that precedes that.
I still maintain that it's more correct for both of them to be reflected by YOUR gender than for both of them to be restricted by a tumblr label.
>>4443
>wasn't their some official artbook art that Frisk was a girl?
I don't know, but I HIGHLY doubt it. Toby keeps a tight leash on that sort of thing, and isn't the type to miss even the tiniest detail.
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No.4452
>>4451
>No, because, again, lack of a definition isn't a definition. Like how being atheist isn't a religion.
Being atheist is a religious orientation though, for lack of a better word. Filling in a religion changes it, it doesn't just add onto it. I don't think I understand this metaphor.
>the conclusion revealing that Frisk isn't you doesn't really matter, because that's common to nearly every game
The way Undertale reveals it isn't. It sets you up to think that Frisk is suitable for self-insertion, then reveals that they do have personal characteristics after all. Frisk having a name is supposed to be a surprise.
>I still maintain that it's more correct for both of them to be reflected by YOUR gender than for both of them to be restricted by a tumblr label.
I don't think they're restricted by a tumblr label, I don't think they're restricted at all. I think their genders are unspecified.
I compared it to blood type earlier. It's a detail that's left open because it doesn't matter. You can fill it in with your own gender if you want, but that's on equal footing with filling in the gender you think makes most sense or the one you want to see represented more or the one you want to fug or not filling it in because you don't care.
("Frisk could actually have a defined gender identity" was a poor use of the word "defined")
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No.4453
>>4452
Being atheist isn't a religion. It's being asked "what's your favorite pizza" and answering "I don't eat pizza". You can't walk away from that thinking that their total lack of pizza consumption is a preference for a type of pizza. That's just silly. For the gender thing, the only thing I care about is that it's not defined. We're in agreement about it having any possibility the Player wants to put in there. What upsets me is when I get people yelling at me that Frisk and Chara are "agender" in canon, and thus it is "wrong" to ever describe them as boys or girls. Toby did NOT intend them to be a pride symbol for agender people; I don't have any problem with them as people, I just take offense when they try to misconstrue canon to appropriate characters as their own.
As for Frisk, I never came away from the game feeling as if they had a defined personality. Aside from flirting with everyone which I have my own extremely dark theory about, it's hard to tell because they don't DO anything on their own. The narration text is Chara, and whether it's Fight or Mercy is all on you.
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No.4454
>>4453
>Being atheist isn't a religion. It's being asked "what's your favorite pizza" and answering "I don't eat pizza". You can't walk away from that thinking that their total lack of pizza consumption is a preference for a type of pizza. That's just silly.
A better metaphor would be "what kind of pizza do you usually eat". But maybe I'm applying it at the wrong level, by comparing atheist to agender - in any case, the metaphor won't clear anything up, we seem to understand each other when it comes to what it's applied to.
>For the gender thing, the only thing I care about is that it's not defined. We're in agreement about it having any possibility the Player wants to put in there. What upsets me is when I get people yelling at me that Frisk and Chara are "agender" in canon, and thus it is "wrong" to ever describe them as boys or girls. Toby did NOT intend them to be a pride symbol for agender people
I'm only 80% sure of this. Toby does nothing to discourage that interpretation, and the treatment matches certain agender-ish people who want as little to do with gender as possible.
It's vague enough that I can't really take offense at other interpretations, as long as they don't claim that everything else is erasure.
>As for Frisk, I never came away from the game feeling as if they had a defined personality.
There's a list of indicators here:
http://nochocolate.tumblr.com/post/140531186995
It's subtle, but I think it's there.
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No.4455
>>4454
>There's a list of indicators here:
I don't believe in the interpretation that every action in Pacifist is Frisk, and everything in Genocide is Chara. That's just a childish good vs. evil viewpoint, and one that absolves the Player of all the guilt that Toby tried very hard to make clear they should be feeling by making those choices.
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No.4456
>>4455
That's the opposite of what that post does. It only takes the things you don't control, and says those are Frisk.
You control almost everything, there's no need to add the things you don't control onto the responsibility.
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No.4457
>>4456
The things you don't control are extremely limited outside of Genocide, though. Frisk going to hide behind a lamp isn't a huge indication of personality. Again, this isn't the ONLY game that does stuff like that. The player-sprite moving itself happens all the damn time in 2D games; hell, it even happens in Super Mario after you jump on the flag and Mario walks into the castle.
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No.4458
>>4457
One thing that the bit with the lamp has going for it is that it's changed in the genocide route. Given that that's supposed to be an indication of what Chara is like, I think it's fair to take the neutral/pacifist behavior as an indication of what Frisk is like.
I think parts of the True Lab are also significant, especially because they happen so near the pacifist ending.
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No.4459
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No.4463
>>4458
>Given that that's supposed to be an indication of what Chara is like
It's not.
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No.4479
>>4428
>Mettaton too
Plz no
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No.4480
>>4479
Mettaton is canonically transgender and transracial.
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No.4481
>>4480
>Mettaton is canonically transgender and transracial.
He is a ghost in a robot, don't know why people draw him fat but w/e
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No.4482
>>4481
The ghost was non-binary (they/them), like other ghosts, but Mettaton is male.
Mettaton seemingly wants to be human and is the most humanoid thing in the game, actual humans included.
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No.4483
>>4482
>The ghost was non-binary (they/them), like other ghosts, but Mettaton is male.
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No.4484
>>4483
In the first screenshot, Undyne uses "their".
In the second screenshot, Undyne uses "they" for both Napstablook and Mettaton individually (in "their cousin" and "where'd they go", respectively).
Napstablook also gets "they" in other places, to the point where it's clear it's deliberately avoiding "he".
Dummy and Mad Dummy get a mix of "they" and "it". I can dig up screenshots if you want.
Pre-bot Mettaton gets "they" a few times and never "he", and the way it's used in the second screenshot wouldn't be natural if "he" could have been used.
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No.4485
>>4484
guess that's one more thing I gotta take if I ever do that complete retooling of that game
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No.4486
>take
fix
disregard this, I suck cocks
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No.4512
>>4484
At this point it seems like just taking the obvious route of not gendering things that don't have a physical sex because they're ghosts or dummies. Reminds me of an old Star Wars character book I had, which gave stats about all of them like height and age and sex. For all the droids under "Sex:", it just said "Non-Applicable". This makes sense, especially ones that aren't humanoid. How could you prove that R2-D2 is a male or female? It's the exact same thing here. Because English is garbage and doesn't have a third-person singular gender-neutral pronoun, people use "he" for convenience, but it's nonsense to suggest a droid or a ghost has a sex or gender.
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No.4514
>>4512
Then just use "it" like a sane person
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No.4515
>>4514
"It" has uncomfortable objectifying connotations, which is why the sane people prefer to use "they".
"It" is also the one word the Knights Who Say Ni cannot bear to hear, so don't, for their sake.
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No.4518
>>4515
>"It" has uncomfortable objectifying connotations, which is why the sane people prefer to use "they".
>robot shell
>not an object
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No.4519
>>4518
Anon, there's someone inside the robot shell
Do you refer to people by their clothing?
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No.4520
>>4519
If peoples clothing were their bodies sure.
:^)
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No.4521
>>4520
Seems like a silly thing to base pronouns on, honestly
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No.4522
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No.5152
>>4440
Inflatechan Begone As Jesus Christ Compells You!
*expected bullet hell joke*
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No.5157
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