No.7596 [View All]
It seems like everyone here prefers the Empire over the Rebel Alliance/New Republic. What are your thoughts on the Separatists?
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No.7643
>>7596
I used to really like them until and how they were handled in comics and stories. Then TCW's CIS episode with Ahsoka came along and just portrayed them as the aimless puppets of Dooku's will despite that most material beforehand showed him genuinely believing in the CIS cause.
>>7600
If it's possible, you can try and locate copies of the CIS Shadowfeed from the Star Wars Insider Magazine, which are basically news outlets from the perspective of the CIS. As for novels, the most recommendable stuff is about Dooku, although there's already a thread about that with links to downloadable books and comics, but out of all of them, Labyrinth of Evil is a must. You could also give the novelizations of the films a shot, along with the Clone Wars Adventures comics, the six-page Covetous webcomic, Visionaries (Dark Horse stuff) and the Republic Commando novels. But if you're looking for Skakoan narrative stuff exclusively, only thing I can recall off the top of my head is "Wat Tambor and the Quest for the Sacred Eye of the Albino Cyclops" which is really trippy and more of a lore drop on Skakoan culture and mythology while giving a deep insight into what drives Tambor, but that one can be hit or miss since it can be either interesting or really weird. It comes off as a really strange exploration of what are basically the "Great Old Ones" of Skakoan culture. But that last one is optional and I would consider saving it for last so as not to dissuade you from the other works I mentioned, but like I said, last one is hit or miss depending on your tastes.
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No.7644
>>7643
Ah fuck I forgot my pic.
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No.7659
I feel sorry for them since they do have legitimate gripes against the Republic but I always preferred Republic military weapons and equipment to the CIS. There was always something about the Republic's aesthetic I liked.
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No.7660
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No.7661
I didn't watch much Clone Wars and missed about half of Gennedy Wars. Wasn't much of an EU consumer back then unless it was pre-film stuff like KOTOR.
I am aware that there was a bunch of media written that attempted to rationalize the humanize the CIS that was torched by Lucas in part because he's adamant that the GFFA's morality is obvious and simple and resented people trying to portray the antagonist factions as much more than "the bad guys."
The wookipedia article on Pre-Disney Dooku always seemed a bit over the map, though.
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No.7670
Which aesthetic was better, brown and beige or blue and gray?
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No.7675
>>7670
why not both?
i always was for standarisation per-regiment
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No.7676
>>7670
I like the blue and grey better.
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No.7688
>>7611
This sums up most of my views on the CIS/Republic pretty well. Raising a slave army instantly makes you the bad guy
Having a grey moral conflict doesn't bother me much and moral conflict on the part of proclaimed "good guys" using child soldiers for the greater good could have made for something compelling if Lucas wasn't so hell bent on this being a good vs. evil thing.
And what did the separitists even want? They weren't trying to take over the galaxy, they were trying to separate themselves from a corrupt and incompetent system.. It's hard to point at the freedom fighters fighting for liberty from a larger oppressive force and say "THOSE ARE THE BAD GUYS" like Lucas seems to want us to.
I would say it's a clever way to clue in the viewer that the republic is the true evil force as its bloated bureaucracy is what leads to the Empire. Instead, Lucas seems to think that the CIS are definitely evil and that we the viewers need to accept that because… democracy? I'm kind of tired of the Democracy=Good-by-Default meme. A government's moral standing should not be determined by how its leaders are selected, but by what those leaders do.
I would say that this is the one thing Disney decided to fix, but then Rogue One just made it worse.
>>7670
Blue I think.
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No.7701
>>7688
>Lucas seems to think that the CIS are definitely evil and that we the viewers need to accept that because… democracy?
That's how it seemed for a while but then he decided to make the separatist government a parliamentary democracy. So according to Lucas the Clone Wars is one democracy headed by a secret sith lord fighting another democracy headed by a secret sith lord.
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No.7706
>>7701
just like real live
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No.7708
>What are your thoughts on the Separatists?
Basically the American Confederacy in space, outgunned and figthing to leave a regime who curbed their economies.
Also, lead by disgusting aliens, which was Sidious plan all along.
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No.7720
>>7701
I see. Only watched some of the CGI clone wars and mostly going off the movies.
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No.7759
>>7688
>Having a grey moral conflict doesn't bother me much and moral conflict on the part of proclaimed "good guys" using child soldiers for the greater good could have made for something compelling if Lucas wasn't so hell bent on this being a good vs. evil thing.
Haven’t you seen what damage is done when you move away from Lucas’ vision and toward shit like, ‘Luke loses his FAITH’
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No.7762
>>7759
Fair point, but it depends on the story. Prequels are perfect for gray moral stories while the OT is perfect for some traditional good vs evil stories.
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No.7766
>>7611
Interesting enough, the template for those clones was a member of the CIS
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No.7769
>>7759
>Haven’t you seen what damage is done when you move away from Lucas’ vision and toward shit like, ‘Luke loses his FAITH’
I haven't, actually. Waiting to see TLJ when it moves to the dollar theater. And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a black and white conflict, I'm just saying that Lucas screwed it up with the prequels, which is a shame as it was so well done in the OT.
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No.7778
>>7769
The Wizard Watch on Release vs The Virgin View Later vs The Chad Choose to Never Watch
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No.7783
>>7778
And where does flying the pirate flag fit in on that little comparison?
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No.7784
>>7610
I figured that only the Kaminoans had perfected the technology, and only the Republic would have the funds to buy an army.
Still, when Obi-Wan and Luke talked about "the Clone Wars" in ANH, a much younger me pictured it as involving some sort of mad-scientist faction using illegal cloning technology to build an army, and the rest of the galaxy having to unite and bring it down. I guess the story Lucas laid out in the prequels made sense in the grand scheme of things but "clones vs droids" is not nearly as interesting (in my opinion) as what I had originally envisioned.
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No.7785
>>7784
I think what you envisioned is probably what most people envisioned before the Prequels.
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No.7817
I'm not sure Lucas put that much stock in the moral implications of the conflict. The Clone Wars were broadly and superficially based on the American Civil War. From his point of view, the CSI are the CSA and that makes them Evil and Wrong. That's enough for him.
The Republic are the ones using slaves in this particular civil war? Take your mind out of the universe and realize that most people will empathize with organic beings being shot so of course the good guys, the Republic, are going to have flesh and blood soliders. Meanwhile we can't have Jedi hacking and slashing too many organic enemies since that might threaten the overall PG sensibilities of the franchise.
If it works in George's head, then that's good enough. It's why he was confused by the reception of Jar Jar Binks and why he felt he needed to add in planetary celebrations of Palpatine's death at Endor at the end of RotJ.
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No.7912
>>7817
Just out of curiosity is George Lucas autistic? I mean this in the most sincere way possible because the more I see videos of him he comes off as autistic.
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No.7917
>>7912
He's certainly an oddball with a very specific vision in mind which I think contributed a lot to Star Wars for both better and worse.
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No.7929
>>7605
The opening crawl of episode 3 has the "heroes on both sides" shit though
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No.7930
>>7912
I’d say it’s probably OCD, rather than autism.
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No.7937
>>7817
I kinda rooted for the CIS to be honest. I can sympathize with wanting to be independent of corrupt politicians and bloated bureaucracy. But I think Lucas really missed an opportunity here to make the clone wars era much more rich and in depth. I mean sure we see droids versus clones but he never discussed the moral implications of what is essentially an army of slaves being used to subjugate those who desire independence. I mean the outer rim worlds are typically poorer and less developed than the core worlds that made up the republic were so they either had to use droids or relied on volunteers to fight for them. There could've been so much more to the conflict that would've made the story greater than what it was.
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No.7944
>>7917
>and worse.
>fast more intense
>so much information in one scene
>green and blue screens
>wooden dialaogue
>3 digital cameras at the same time
>aaand cut!
You tell me. Lucas was good as the guy who comes with the broad ideas, the general conception. Period. When he steps outside that, shit happens.
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No.7945
>>7937
> I mean the outer rim worlds are typically poorer and less developed than the core worlds that made up the republic were so they either had to use droids or relied on volunteers to fight for them
No? The idea is "greedy filthy rich corporations churning droids because they are really cheap and don't talk back". The whole thing with the Trade Federation and it's droids set the tone. They are rich tax dodgers.
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No.7948
>>7701
The Clone Wars always felt to me like Lucas trying to retcon some of his own shit. A lot of things, starting with Anakin's own characterization and the whole "Chosen One" concept all the way to the clones' mind-control bio-chips seem like that.
It still doesn't explain why Sidious needed to start the Clone Wars in the first place though, since he still could've just built the clone army, gotten himself elected supreme chancellor, framed the Jedi for some shit, had them exterminated and then declared an Empire. Or alternatively just steamrolled the Republic with the Confederate forces while manipulating them to become Emperor. It's repeatedly implied that the CIS leadership is dumb as shit anyway, so it's not like it would be too hard.
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No.7949
>>7948
>It still doesn't explain why Sidious needed to start the Clone Wars in the first place though, since he still could've just built the clone army, gotten himself elected supreme chancellor, framed the Jedi for some shit, had them exterminated and then declared an Empire.
It’s a parallel to Ancient Rome, where part of the reason why a dictator ultimately won was because people were tired of fighting. War fatigue was a big component of Sidious’ plan.
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No.7973
>>7948
>he still could've just built the clone army,
The Senate would have flipped the fuck out
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No.7974
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>7597
>>7600
The CIS were right in their thinking but The Techno Union used it as an excuse to do a whole lot of fucked up experiments and the Banking clans is whole other form of shit.
I do like how Neimoidians were an evolution of Duros though
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No.8003
Not a big fan of what Clone Wars did to the EU, but S03E10, actually called "Heroes on Both Sides", did a decent job of making the Sepratist cause sympathetic.
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No.8015
>>7670
Brown and beige is cooler for the mtt/aat, but I like the blue for the droid starfighters
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No.8068
>>7912
He's just a true believer in auteur theory of filming, which to a lot of people today after viewing the products of that movement decades after its heyday seems like autism. It's kind of funny you ask it in sincerity, though, since I've seen people compare his adding of scenes to address critics and fan opinions compared to Chris-Chan retconning Sonichu in response to trolls picking things out for mockery.
>>7929
>>8003
This is true, but I think it's possible to hold the idea in one's head that a faction can have its own heroes while still being itself Evil, Bad, and Wrong. In real life it's rather uncontroversial even for people with very black and white views of the American Civil War and World War II, two sources in varying degrees for Star Wars, to give fair credit to Robert E. Lee or Erwin Rommel. They'll still consider these wars as historic exceptions to the rule that human conflicts are ethically complex without definite good and evil sides and insult those who don't see things that way as immature tryhard contrarians. Not to say it's correct, but it's a very typical point of view to have.
The rebooted lore doesn't even seem capable of doing this. Almost anybody who does have a shred of decency, nobility, or just plain coolness must defect to the protagonists' side if at all an important character. The only exceptions I can think of right now are a minor stormtrooper in Alexander Freed's "Battlefront: Twilight Company" novel and Grand Admiral Thrawn, and tbqh I think there's still time for them to decide not to kill Thrawn off but have him return with the Chiss to the greater galaxy and ally with the New Republic.
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No.27066
>>7817
>the Republic is the North
>the North was a puppet army being controlled by a (((shadowy))) and duplicitous politician
What did Lucas mean by this?
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No.27073
>>7944
no, you have it wrong. When lucas steps out, shit happens. Lucas is the best star wars director, micromanager, ideas guy, whatever, you name it. star wars is not collective imagination, star wars is lucas. You think it's pure coincidence that even licensed media (something Lucas was always less involved in) turned to shit after Lucas left? It's not. Whether he was larping as boss man of Lucasfilm or directing the movies, approving concept art or checking what lucasarts is up to, at the end of the day, he was the only man fit for his job. star wars is interesting because of him. The less restraints he has, the better the franchise becomes. The moment you take him out of the picture the franchise is 100% worthless.
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No.27077
>>27073
Agree 100%. The man's imagination is wonderful.
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No.27097
Perhaps it's "Head-Canon" but it seems to me there are three main interpretations of the Separatists:
1: Idiotic and foolish pawns of Darth Sideous. The various political and military assets that make up the so-called "Confederacy" are all either directly taking orders from the Sith lord, or are faithfully taking orders from those who do. They do this because they are either so well fooled, stupid or locked in place (via intrigue and subterfuge) that there is essentially no free will involved.
In this interpretation they are considered 100% controlled opposition. The leadership may hope for victory, but only insofar as they are led to by their lord, they have absolutely no goals or priorities other than doing what he says. Pure puppetry with and and all sympathetic elements being wholly fabricated in order to garner more power for the war machine.
2: Misanthropic (((Business Interests))) who merely desire power and/or wealth. The top men listen to Sideous but do so because they believe it's the best way to get more power. They scour worlds for resources and harm everybody and anybody if it would increase their profits. They intend to win the war which will significantly boost their profit margins, as it will allow them even larger amounts of assets to utilize. Dooku is in this boat but doesn't want material wealth, but rather the power of the dark side of the force. Grievous may or may not be in this boat, he may just "Jedi Slime" enough to go along with all of this. This force of evil burns across the galaxy with the intent of reshaping it into a new kind of Empire, with the leadership of the CIS becoming the leadership of the galaxy. This is essentially how they are portrayed to the Republic and in the Disney show with the orange togruta.
In this interpretation the leadership is being fooled by Sideous but most people are basically just in it for more power and don't particularly care about winning or losing the greater war, just increasing their personal demesnes. This is also controlled opposition, obviously, though it's a more complicated machine since most gears and cogs aren't loyal in any way and need to be kept in line by giving them outlets for their sadism - which they gleefully accept.
3: An unfortunate political movement with key members compromised. The various interests that make up the governance of the CIS are from all over the disgruntled parts of the republic, they have a myriad of reasons for joining the CIS ranging from noble to ignoble but primarily everyone is irritated with what they perceive as the core overstepping its bounds. Disenfranchised and tired of trying to change things politically, they band together to throw off the shackles of the Republic and become independent. Many business interests, seeing that they could flourish in these new, more free markets, jump on the bandwagon and their assets become the foundation and bulk of the military. Unfortunately the movement is also colonized by Sideous' inside men: Dooku, Grievous and Gunray. These three men have all been misled by the Sith lord but do not know it and so continue looking toward him for guidance, this proves disastrous to the movement. It is nearly certain that none of those three intended to lose the war. Furthermore an overall lack of oversight (being that the citizen government and the military command structures are so distinctly different and separated) means that the military arm can do a lot of things the citizenry would find offensive and morally abhorrent, the fog of war making it impossible to know - let alone correct.
In this interpretation the leadership was orchestrated into making some critically bad moves, Dooku being either blinded by the dark side or otherwise confused, Gunray putting far too much faith in his strange friend and Grievous being so caught up in the war he never really had a chance to notice it all falling apart around him. The civilian leadership is ignorant to any evils perpetrated and are simply trying to become free of tyranny.
Personally I'd like to see them more as the latter, being that they are the only faction who actually value freedom and independence. (The rebel alliance only wanting to restore the horrific Republic). But It's more of a feeling I get from some of the films and other media. Dooku seems to have a few beats of "doing the right thing" early which ring very loudly to me, but then later he seems to just be a mustache twirling villain. The overwhelming evidence is that they're either so stupid or so evil that it's undeniable they're just unlikable puppets to Sideous. I don't think I'll ever see them as anything but "righteous but unfortunate".
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No.27098
>>27097
I think the CIS is big enough to have types from all three categories making up its whole.
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No.27104
>>7706
But the Sith are the good guys though.
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No.27113
The CIS were (overall) written very 2 dimensional, especially the little we see in the movies where they were portrayed as villainous yet inept. They have a lot of potential if people went through it to rewrite it. Even so, it gave us the Clone Wars animation, fun games, and more.
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No.33539
Fuck the Republic and fuck the Jedi.
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No.33564
>>7766
>Our entire army is based on the DNA of a dude who fought and died against us.
The fact that this didn't make the jedi go into big think mode is reason enough for them to Order 66'd.
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No.33573
>>33539
Go back to Jabiin, trooper.
>>33564
For all they know the guy was just a hired thug who switched sides at a moment's notice. Also THE CLOUD OF THE DARK SIDE plus the whole theme of "Jedi got fucked because they become complacent and arrogant", "Jedi didn't adapt to anything while the Sith did"
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No.33578
This is a problem I have with the Clone Wars in general, but where in the hell were all the militias and volunteers? I know The Force Unleashed had Kota's Republican militia, but we're almost never shown regular folks fighting in the war.
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No.33582
>>33578
They are shown a lot in comics and novels, as well as a few episodes of the clone wars. They did exist but most focus is on Jedi.
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No.33596
>>33578
>but where in the hell were all the militias
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No.33642
>>7912
He's spiritual, which puts him closer to the traits of schizophrenia. Autism is distilled atheism.
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