/sw/ - Star Wars

>>20494

Worst prequel fight is at the end of AoTC, it felt too choreographed with Anakin literally pausing so Dooku could lop off his arm.

RoTS' final fight was mostly good, Tarzan shenanigans and the twirly spin bits aside, and the Duel of Fates' only blemish is that one sequence where Obi and Maul do the same flourish before re-engaging eachother.

Nu-War lightsaber fights are a shitshow though

TFA was shackled by Reddit Letter Memeia alpha nerd orthodox opinion that the prequels did everything wrong and the sequel trilogy could only redeem Star Wars by going strictly to the roots of the OT. Trouble was they tried to play it both ways and created a lot of awkward loping like a couple of people just learning HEMA and getting far too into their head fantasies of being knights.

I will shrug though and say the fight with the Praetorians was the one part of TLJ I remember liking.

>fencing crap

What fencing? The only fencing in a Star Wars movie was done by Count Dooku. Though I'll agree that the lightsaber work in TFA sucks balls compared to the OT or even the PT, which had a tendency toward showy maneuvers that you'd never see in a real sword fight. The OT's saber duels were much more closely based on real-life kenjutsu, though because of the lightsaber aspect it lacked any sort of iaido techniques which were crucial in Japanese sword fighting. TFA's duel doesn't even really resemble a coherent style. It's just two random faggots swinging sticks at each other. All the artistry is missing from it, much like the rest of the movie.

Also, there's already a fuckhuge thread about lightsabers. It's getting close to the bump limit, though. It'll probably be time for another one soon. I was just on my way to work up the rest of that crossguard lightlance stuff, and I got a little sidetracked. It's not my fault.

>>20494

>PT

>ideal

The lightsaber fights in the prequels look like spastic videogames. They sucked away the air of dignity and power that the OT had.

But I guess you also believe grievous with multiple sabers versus Obi-wan was super cool.

>>20538

Grievous with multiple sabers was badass in Genndy Wars. Hell I'd be happy to see an animated remake of the prequels with Genndy directing it.

>>20494

>fights

I just assumed they cried and hugged out their problems in the nuTrilogy. Haven't they gotten rid of lightsabers because they're too phallic and are a symbol of the patriarchy or something?

>>20504

>lets take one short two second clip from the movie to say the fights are bad

Low IQ.

It was a more civilized time, a time of high technology and the height of the jedi. Of course the environments are going to look somewhat clean and proper and the fights are going to be a level higher than the swinging the lightsaber at eachother in the OT between the rookie-saberuser and the barely alive robot.

>>20525

>I will shrug though and say the fight with the Praetorians was the one part of TLJ I remember liking.

The choreography of that fight was fucking terrible. Sometimes the Praetorians would just fuck off and run away; sometimes weapons would disappear mid-fight so that the protagonists wouldn't get stabbed in the back. The Praetorians might look cool but they're wasted on that shitty fight scene.

>>21550

i love how people pointed out several times that kylo and rey should have been killed but weren't because continuity, and that one guy having his arm edited out

Nu light sabers fit the video game style of Jedi better. Which ultimately were better jedi than the original trilogy's farm boy and crippled old man.

People don't remember how bad the fight scenes in the original movies look.

>>20494

Does it even matter? The Star Wars we knew will be choked to death with worthless content until even we forget what's buried underneath. Perhaps someone in the far future will rediscover the EU in its glory and gain some happiness from it, as I did.

Can this be the new lightsaber general? The catalog probably shouldn't be clogged up by yet another lightsaber thread when there's already a good collection of them. If so, maybe a change of title is in order.

>>21551

ikr

>>22186

This. You guys need to keep it to one thread, and not shit up the catalog.

>>22184

>People don't remember how bad the fight scenes in the original movies look.

I watched through the whole series not too long ago, you're dead wrong. Lightsaber fights in the OT may not have had the acrobatics and choreography of the PT whether that's good or bad I leave up to you, but they were grounded, riveting, and full of emotion.

>>22186

Sure, why not.

>>22227

>Lightsaber fights in the OT may not have had the acrobatics and choreography of the PT whether that's good or bad I leave up to you, but they were grounded, riveting, and full of emotion.

The other thread has a good bit of discussion about jumping in a lightsaber duel. Suffice to say that it's generally not a recommended tactic. The only jumps the classic trilogy has during lightsaber battles were when Luke jumps out of the carbon freezing chamber in ESB and jumps up to the high platform in ROTJ to get away from Vader because he was trying to turn him back to the light instead of killing him, both of which have reasonable justifications, and Luke still just about gets slashed while hanging onto the pipes above the carbon freezing chamber. The Mustafar duel has a great example of what can happen when you jump around in a sword fight at the end. Then again, it never would have happened if Anakin hadn't followed old Obi-Wan on some damn fool trip out to a catwalk over a boiling river of lava.

>>20494

>They should amp Rey and Kylo to fight as violently as Obi and Anakin did in RotS.

The only thing Kylo could fight in the new trilogy is Rey shoving her strap on up his ass.

>>22184

>People don't remember how bad the fight scenes in the original movies look.

george literally lifted the duel from hidden fortress and made it longer each time. it was a classic jidaigeki film duel, but with lasers and space magic.

1:35

>>22221

Definitely. It should be an official board policy that only 1 lightsaber general thread that hasn't reached the bump limit is allowed at a time for all discussion of lightsaber-related things along with one that has, like /v/'s policy about GamerGate threads. I looked through the catalog and saw a separate thread for lightsaber colors and this one which appears to have been started just to talk about the fights in the prequels.

>>22232

To elaborate about this somewhat, it's not all about jumping. The PT fights have lots of random spins and instances of the combatants seemingly trying to attack the enemy blade instead of attempting to hit the enemy themselves.

>>22244

So what, the prequel fights have tons of spinning not because it's a good trick but because George ran out of things to take from Akira Kurosawa movies?

If we're going to use this as the new lightsaber general, there are 3 things that we didn't get to talk about in the last thread that would spell majorly bad news for just about any lightsaber type: liquid ammo, explosive ammo and explosive armor. There are some things that have the first two. Voxyn spit acid at any Force user they find, and some Rebels had slugthrowers with explosive rounds. Voxyn made a hell of a lot of trouble for the New Jedi Order because liquid shots can't be blocked with a lightsaber, and there isn't a real reason why the voxyn couldn't just be re-created. Explosive ammo dispels the ability to block incoming shots with a lightsaber because the explosion will still hit the saberist even if they block the projectile successfully, but since it's so uncommon for anyone to have a slugthrower or to use an energy weapon with this capability, this isn't a terribly big issue. Nobody as far as I've seen has ever had explosive armor though. It's pretty much the ultimate fuck you to any lightsaber wielder because even if they manage to get a hit in with their lightsaber, it'll set off the armor and blast them to kingdom come. The problem is getting someone or something wearing it close enough to make this happen without setting the armor off prematurely. But all three of these would necessitate the Jedi carrying guns or becoming very, very good at saber throws. Explosive armor is a particular threat because a lightsaber thrown at it is likely to be destroyed in the explosion.

>>22296

>assuming you can get someone to wear a suicide vest into battle

Just give it to battle droids. They won't object to wearing a suicide vest, and certain models such as the droideka would be exceptionally deadly with it because of their ball mode letting them roll into a group of enemies and detonate while being very small and difficult to hit while transformed.

>There are only a few thousand Jedi in existence in a galaxy with a population in the quadrillions. This means encountering a Jedi is far too rare for most forces to invest in anti-Jedi weaponry.

This is true for the most part, but there's something that could change it radically - artificial Force infusion of the same kind that Desann used to make Reborn and Shadow Troopers in Jedi Outcast.

>>20494

>PT style of Jedi/Sith combat

The prequels are trash, contrarians get a sense of power from their retarded opinions but in the end it's just detachment from reality. You're just another kind of leftist.

Upholding this premise - at the release of TPM the general consensus among fans was that for all the shitty kids and midichlorians, at least we got flashy lightsaber fights. Wrong: it took a while longer to learn the hard lesson, but flashy chinese combat should have never replaced the musketeer\swashbuckler style of old. Lucas employed a chinese wuxia (swordmaster genre) coreographer to plan the new fights.

Because they lack gravitas and make the spectacle as flashy, as boring. Anything can happen, so you can't analyze the hits and responses but just look in awe at the mess until the final strike. Case in point: it's the reason why you've never been able to watch the chink movies to the end, those fantasy fights are pointless.

This post is a long bout of musing on droidekas because the prequels seem to be the focus of this thread. You could include the sequel trilogy in the title's subject, but is there a single poster here who actually wants to talk about that except to make fun of it?

>>22294

The best option out of these three for general issue purposes is explosive rounds, and you don't even have to necessarily go back to bullets for that effect. You could achieve the same thing with pulse cannons by modifying them a bit. Suppose you altered a pulse cannon to fire miniature concussion rifle shots. Shadows of the Empire's pulse cannon shots seem to explode on contact with a target like the concussion rifle, but they don't have the concussion rifle's splash damage property. A pulse cannon fires plasma pulses while a concussion rifle uses compressed ionized air. The difference between the two is just complete versus partial ionization. Even if you repel a few shots with Force push, there are way too many of them to rely completely on it. This is supported by plasma's tendency to expand due to its high temperatures. You only need to make the expansion happen fast enough to cause explosive damage, but not before the bolt hits.

I thought about this a while ago, but a weapon of this description has never appeared in Star Wars. It's somewhat unclear how a pulse cannon differs from a blaster given that they're both said to be plasma, but pulse cannons have very different behavior. Give this type of pulse cannon to a battalion of droidekas and watch them murderize the entire Jedi Order and the Sith too. You probably wouldn't have non-general issue weapons equipped on a droideka because they have to have the ability to fight anything on the ground to justify the expense of making them, but this dodges the need for special anti-lightsaber weapons. The only addition to this droideka that might be good would be a heavy weapon to give them some more punch against vehicles and crowds, preferably a weapon that isn't susceptible to being Force pushed back.

>>22321 cont.

The original droideka had enough firepower and resilience to give pause to even the strongest Jedi, so an army of these advanced droidekas along with suicide droideka backup would spell utter disaster for almost all lightsaber users. This makes having a physical shield or a personal shield generator (or both) a very attractive, almost mandatory option. I'd also had the thought that a crossguard lightlance could block an explosive round far enough away from the user's body to nullify the explosive damage, but it's not as sure as a physical shield, so it's a damn good idea to have a personal shield generator and quality armor no matter what you do.

The only other way to win against these contraptions would be to be as strong in the Force as Luke or Anakin so you can crush all the droids with telekinesis, block their shots with Force Protect and not worry about getting hit. Even if all the regular Force users decided to start using guns in lieu of having Chosen One levels of Force power, they'd probably lose to the droidekas as the clone troops generally did. Even elite troops such as Republic Commandos and ARC troopers had their work cut out for them against destroyer droids, and those droidekas lacked even a normal pulse cannon, let alone a far more powerful version.

Speaking of voxyn, the last thread had no discussion of the Yuuzhan Vong at all. Since the possibility of the Reborn process has been brought up here, we should mention the two Imperial Knight lightsaber styles, Praetoria Ishu and Praetoria Vonil. These styles feature a team-oriented approach instead of individual skill like other lightsaber styles, making it good for the Imperial Knights who created it. But if they just get gunned down by advanced droidekas, is there really a point? The last thread oddly didn't have any discussion of droidekas either and very little of droids in general.

>>22322

>droids

A very good idea and I'm also surprised they weren't mentioned earlier. They're a good natural counter to Jedi, as they can't give away their thoughts, and I believe most junior Knights can't even detect droids through the Force, as it's a skill which requires specialized training.

The pulse cannon is definitely a good offensive option, let's talk about counters saber wielders may offer and the ways to deal with that. The natural way for a Jedi to deal with these is to carry EMP grenades, and use Force knowledge to get the timing and position of the throw right. Not flawless, but EMPs are to an extent area weapons, so there's some wiggle room there. It would make Jedi limited to only a coupe engagements before requiring resupply, though–this would mean they couldn't act as independent operatives as effectively, which is big because that's always been the strength of Jedi–they're a force multiplier that can change the course of conflicts even if they show up one or two at a time. The next question is whether these droidekas would specialize in speed or armor/shielding. I imagine the EMP problem could be negated through the use of proper hardening. However, between the armor plating and multiple shield generators already in place, all this weight is going to start taking a toll on maneuverability. And even if the Jedi can't use EMPs, the one major advantage they've always had is speed. Any force that hopes to take on Jedi needs to either match them in speed or have a way of neutralizing it, and too much shielding negates the possibility of the former.

>fencing

>nuwars

What

VIII had fine choreography though. But the Episode I, III and V are the best

>>22336

>EMP hardening

KotOR 1 & 2, Jedi Outcast/Academy and Republic Commando all have EMP weapons in the form of grenades and/or blasters (and Force lightning for all except RC), but many of the robotic enemies are only temporarily stunned by them, suggesting some form of EMP hardening is in place. Force lightning is also very short-ranged compared to any gun, and that makes a big difference when you can't block the gun anymore.

>The next question is whether these droidekas would specialize in speed or armor/shielding.

For suicide droidekas it would definitely be focused on speed. Other variants would have more protection.

>let's talk about counters saber wielders may offer and the ways to deal with that.

A lightsaber wielder going against even a regular pulse cannon, to say nothing of an upgraded version with explosive shots, is basically requesting the guy with the pulse cannon to JUST FUCK MY SHIT UP unless they use sword-and-shield or the crossguard lightlance. Both depend on having access to lightsaber-resistant materials, so you're not going to see very many people taking those approaches. You could also make droideka armor out of lightsaber-resistant materials if you want to spend even more.

>The natural way for a Jedi to deal with these is to carry EMP grenades, and use Force knowledge to get the timing and position of the throw right.

Using the Force to make a projectile hit a difficult target is what got Luke famous, so this isn't out of the question. But those grenades cost a big bucket of credits, and Luke's performance at the Battle of Yavin may be beyond most Jedi. Some detailed analysis of this is needed. But even if the majority of Force users can do well in this role, every single time a Force user tried to take down a droideka squad it would be like a miniature Death Star trench run. Except that unlike the Death Star, there's a shitload of droidekas waiting to take the place of the one or two that get destroyed.

>And even if the Jedi can't use EMPs, the one major advantage they've always had is speed.

Some Force users have more skill with this than others. The best way to deal with this is by using area denial weapons. Glop grenades don't have the drawbacks of gas attacks or fire, but they may not be the best choice for all situations.

>>22346

>A lightsaber wielder going against even a regular pulse cannon

There is one other option besides using an exotic weapon, but very few have shown any facility with it. Telekinetic lightsaber combat has a better chance of stopping a pulse cannon with an ordinary lightsaber, or rather with a group of lightsabers. Obviously, your chance of not dying to a pulse cannon increases with the number of lightsabers you can telekinetically control at the same time. But even if a single droideka can have its pulse cannon fire effectively blocked this way, you're never going to be fighting just one droideka at a time. You'll be against a horde of them, and most of the Jedi and Sith can't beat that.

>>20541

The prequels are some of the most reddit movies ever made, though.

>>22422

and The Empire Strikes back is the quintessential #1 reddit movie of all time, right next to Pulp Fiction & The Dark Knight. So what?

>>22337

>VIII had fine choreography though

Fuck off Rianfag. The choreography was laughable at best. The fucking dagger had to be airbrushed out and one guy twirls offscreen. It's fucking terrible.

>>21550

>The choreography of that fight was fucking terrible. Sometimes the Praetorians would just fuck off and run away; sometimes weapons would disappear mid-fight so that the protagonists wouldn't get stabbed in the back. The Praetorians might look cool but they're wasted on that shitty fight scene.

>sometimes

Micro issues don't apply. The fight was good because it's the only moment in the whole series where the hero and the villain cooperate. Also, there are lightwhips and lightdaggers. If you dislike these things then you had no childhood.

>>22427

>a continuity error ruined my childhood.

>>22298

>Anything can happen

This is why they are good.

>you can't analyze the hits and responses

It's impossible to properly analyze the fights since lightsabers aren't real. They have no weight, no hilts, can cut in any direction and are wield by people with supernatural powers. Realistic coreography is the worst. Abstracting the fights is better.

>>22438

>No arguments

>Back to XXX meme

You should turn your brain on. Please explain how realistic coreography can work with physically impossible weapons. There are a lot of instances in the OT where the characters could've hit their opponents if they moved their lightsaber in a certain direction after a strike. The saber is weightless and can cut in any direction after all, it isn't a sword.

>>22436

>Micro issues don't apply. The fight was good because it's the only moment in the whole series where the hero and the villain cooperate.

This has nothing to do with choreography, firstly. And secondly it's untrue since Palpatine and the Jedi were both on the same 'side' in the clone wars and the scene is a ripoff of Vader helping Luke.

Lastly, it was fucking dumb. Ugly actors fight nameless mooks in a bad setting with no stakes.

>>22437

>well-choreographed fights are impossible with weapons created for aesthetics.

You are retarded. This is like arguing that continuity errors don't matter if a story has dragons in it.

Holy shit, it stopped eating the flag choice display.

>>22439

>Please explain how realistic coreography can work with physically impossible weapons.

I actually wrote a section for the guide I'm making for the crossguard lightlance about this, but I can just post it in response to this question and save some space. First of all, the plasma saber has been theorized as actually being possible to build. But more importantly, a sword with very low blade weight already exists: the fencing foil. It's true that the majority of the choreography in Star Wars isn't terribly realistic given the properties ascribed to the lightsaber. But this doesn't mean that there's no way to make it work. What I theorize as being the best way to use a regular lightsaber hasn't been seen in any Star Wars media as far as I know. It involves using a pair of lightsabers in the same way as a rapier/smallsword and parrying dagger combo. In the parlance of the old Jedi Order, this would be a combination of Makashi offense in the main hand and Shien defense with the other hand. The offhand lightsaber has a good many improvements over a physical parrying dagger, not the least of which is that it offers Makashi users a way to block blaster bolts, which Makashi is terrible at.

Sword fights in a competition setting (e.g. Olympic fencing) place great importance on the point of the sword, but this is counterable with a much heavier weapon. With physical blades, a user of a heavy blade would be able to bash through the defenses offered by any fencer, but this isn't the case with a lightsaber duel. The end of the last thread saw us discuss the possibility of lightsabers with adjustable weights, though. Physical blades resistant to lightsabers also exist. A lightsaber user has a hard time putting up a defense against a weapon that has mass and resists lightsabers. I hypothesize that the reasons you don't see more users of these types of swords constantly overpowering lightsaber wielders are both because it takes rare and pricey materials to resist a lightsaber and because lightsabers can reflect blaster bolts, which physical swords can't do. It's also hardly impossible for a lightsaber wielder to win against a lightsaber-resilient sword. The lightsaber user has to play to the supreme speed offered by a lightsaber instead of trying to overpower the opponent.

>>22437

>It's impossible to properly analyze the fights since lightsabers aren't real.

Thus far, you've just shown shit taste and poor judgement, but THIS- this goes too far! Read the fucking lightsaber general you goddamn heathen!

>>22444

>>22453

>>22438

Nice samefagging.

>>22455

>there's only one person who disagrees with me

Wew.

So I thought of a new variation on the guard shoto. I'm surprised nobody's ever had one of these yet. All you have to do is instead of putting the blade on the front or back of the tonfa, attach the emitter to the tonfa opposite the handle so the blade will be parallel to the tonfa instead of on the same axis with it. Now you're not just much less likely to kill yourself with the weapon or to need to make it out of phrik or other similar materials, it gains tons of defensive ability, including newfound use for blaster deflection. You could place the emitter at either end of the tonfa facing either to the front or rear as long as it's jutting out of the side of the weapon opposite the handle. Does anybody have a good idea of how this would perform? My specialty isn't the tonfa.

>>22566

Take that picture and rotate the blade by 90 degrees. Move the emitter a bit further forward and have it point back instead of out. Now you have the new guard shoto. That's not the only way to build it though. You can have the exact reverse of that arrangement as well. You can keep the blade you have there and shorten it a bit as well, and add rings of them around the forward part of the tonfa. A tonfa can have a crossguard just like a lance. I've theorized that this tonfa would potentially be very good at stopping a lightlance and most other types of lightsabers as well, but I thought of a way for the lance to stand up to it. However, this tonfa lacks the ability to do much of anything against explosive rounds.

In another thread, it was suggested that there's a "special bond" that is formed between the lightsaber and its creator, which prevents it being pulled out of the user's hand in combat and/or the activation stud being depressed. There are several counterexamples to this that disprove this idea, going through official media:

>in AoTC, Obi-wan and Anakin use loaner sabers from random Jedi to which they have no connection. Dooku still doesn't pull them out of their hands

>in RoTS, Anakin is able to pull Dooku's saber towards him and use it to decapitate him

>in KOTOR 1, Revan and his companions use lightsabers that aren't theirs without any risk of them being pulled out of their hands

>in KOTOR 2, no one uses his own saber–the Exile's first is put together by Bao-Dur, not the Exile, and all other sabers used by characters are looted from corpses.

>in Jedi Knight, Kyle uses Yun's lightsaber for the last part of the game. The case for a "connection" between Katarn and Yun that translated into that same connection existing between Yun's saber and Katarn is tenuous at best, especially as the definition of this "connection" and what is required to make it hasn't been established.

And finally, one more that's a little "out there" in justifiability

>Vader is unable to pull his old lightsaber out of Luke's hand despite having a "connection" to it could be argued that Anakin had the "connection" and not Vader, so I'll admit this isn't as strong an example.

>>23245

Yeah, this was just a hypothesis I had to explain why we don't see more Force pulling of lightsabers. I don't have a particular attachment to the idea or anything, and that list of counterexamples does a pretty good job of shutting it down for the most part. Some special cases of this may still happen though.

>in AoTC, Obi-wan and Anakin use loaner sabers from random Jedi to which they have no connection. Dooku still doesn't pull them out of their hands

I had to go watch a video of all the lightsaber fights in the movies again and I don't see this. Was it in the novelization?

>in RoTS, Anakin is able to pull Dooku's saber towards him and use it to decapitate him

To be fair, Dooku had just had his hands lopped off and was preoccupied with that.

>in KOTOR 1, Revan and his companions use lightsabers that aren't theirs without any risk of them being pulled out of their hands

You get lightsabers as loot from enemies throughout the game and run no risk of this, so this is the best counterexample IMO. Both KotOR games have alignment-restricted items though. KotOR 2 also has the Player Name Crystal, which is restricted to the Exile.

>in KOTOR 2, no one uses his own saber–the Exile's first is put together by Bao-Dur, not the Exile, and all other sabers used by characters are looted from corpses.

This is true for the playable party, but the Sith bosses at the end use their own sabers. They probably have enough power not to run the risk of this even without a bond though. I also remembered that in the first KotOR, the Sith Governor of Taris states that he'll be rewarded with his lightsaber by his superiors if he succeeds at killing Bastila and the rest of the player party instead of building it himself, so the Sith have no connection of this sort to their lightsabers.

>in Jedi Knight, Kyle uses Yun's lightsaber for the last part of the game. The case for a "connection" between Katarn and Yun that translated into that same connection existing between Yun's saber and Katarn is tenuous at best, especially as the definition of this "connection" and what is required to make it hasn't been established.

This is indeed tenuous and has no defined criteria for how it could happen, and it was the first thing I thought of. It's notable that by the time of Mysteries of the Sith, Kyle still continues to use Yun's lightsaber, meaning he'd had a great deal longer with it than with the saber he inherited from Rahn or likely even than Yun himself had. Only when Kyle goes to Luke's Jedi Academy does he actually build his own saber.

The best examples for the bond theory are the other examples I cited about Revan versus the army of much weaker Sith apprentices on the Star Forge and Kyle versus the Reborn/Shadowtroopers. Revan and Kyle have extraordinary Force powers and if there ever were times when this could have happened, it was then. But those are just game mechanics which may not be canon, and other ways to ensure saber retention may exist without resorting to the bond theory.

Of course this leaves the question of how lightsabers are retained without a bond. I said in the other thread that grippy materials for the hilt and a hilt shape designed to maximize retention can do this, but many lightsabers have relatively smooth hilts. Pistol grips usually have a rough section on them, many knives have a similar grip, and swords wrap the hilt in cord to give additional friction.

I was also going to talk about the possibility of using a Buster Sword-sized phase knife to block blaster bolts without the weight of a physical greatsword of that size, or just making a Buster Sword out of something that resists lightsabers and using it, but that seems to take the thread too far out of lightsaber-related territory. You could write an extensive amount about how each real-world weapon would fare against lightsabers if it was made to be lightsaber-resistant, but for weapons of that weight it's safe to say that it would be too tiring even for Force users to wield very effectively and using technological solutions to mitigate the weapon's weight would require too much complexity to be viable, even though such a weapon would do an incredible amount of damage to anything unfortunate enough to get hit by it. Ultimately it would get defeated soundly by someone with a less cumbersome weapon in most cases.

For those waiting for the cross lance guide, all I have to say about that at the moment is that it'll be done whenever it's done. I'd like to have some help on it, but few people have the desire to read books of martial arts theory and pore over tons of footage of spear usage to look for potential techniques, so I tried to think of ways to make it more exciting. All I managed to come up with is the idea to construct some scenarios for the posters to try out different lightsaber variants and techniques in.

I was also going to talk about the possibility of using a Buster Sword-sized phase knife to block blaster bolts without the weight of a physical greatsword of that size, or just making a Buster Sword out of something that resists lightsabers and using it, but that seems to take the thread too far out of lightsaber-related territory. You could write an extensive amount about how each real-world weapon would fare against lightsabers if it was made to be lightsaber-resistant, but for weapons of that weight it's safe to say that it would be too tiring even for Force users to wield very effectively and using technological solutions to mitigate the weapon's weight would require too much complexity to be viable, even though such a weapon would do an incredible amount of damage to anything unfortunate enough to get hit by it. Ultimately it would get defeated soundly by someone with a less cumbersome weapon in most cases.

For those waiting for the cross lance guide, all I have to say about that at the moment is that it'll be done whenever it's done. I'd like to have some help on it, but few people have the desire to read books of martial arts theory and pore over tons of footage of spear usage to look for potential techniques, so I tried to think of ways to make it more exciting. All I managed to come up with is the idea to construct some scenarios for the posters to try out different lightsaber variants and techniques in.

>>23245

>>23247

>>23248

>>23250

>still going on about this bond shit

i said it before and i'll say it once more: a lightsaber is a tool, the only attachment a jedi has to one is the personal fashion design they give it when making one. beyond that, there is nothing else. it's the jedi using the force to keep their lightsabers wielded/activated, not some magical bond.

>>23247

>I had to go watch a video of all the lightsaber fights in the movies again and I don't see this. Was it in the novelization?

it's in the arena battle, they're riding on top of the reek and two jedi toss some sabers so they can cut each other's bonds

on top of that, a jedi building a saber is a special event, it shows they've matured in their training, that's why kyle didn't build his own lightsaber until he was formally taught by luke.

now fuck off with this bond shit, you have no case.

>>23253

no crossguard design is good, disney's isn't as retarded as what you posted, but their spamming of it is what's cancerous.

>>23248

>>23250

The fuck happened to this post? Refreshing after posting it only showed me the first post of these two.

>>23252

>it's in the arena battle, they're riding on top of the reek and two jedi toss some sabers so they can cut each other's bonds

They weren't going against Count Dooku at that moment. They fought Dooku with their own sabers. People who aren't even Force sensitive can still use a lightsaber, just not nearly as well as someone who has the Force.

>now fuck off with this bond shit, you have no case.

I'm partly playing devil's advocate here to show that even the best case anyone could come up with to defend Disney will fail. >>23247 contains acknowledgment of the better counterexamples to it, and some of them were instances I'd forgotten about. I kind of have an appreciation for the concept, but anything that Disney creates along these lines will suck.

>>23253

Looks like you got yourself a lightsai. Did you read the previous thread? Lots of discussion of crossguards in that one, and maybe more to come here.

>>23254

In order to get anything useful out of that design, it would have to be used as a sai rather than a sword.

>>23255

>They fought Dooku with their own sabers

no they didn't you stupid fuck, obi-wan used a green saber and anakin used the loaner he got plus obi-wan's loaner.

>>23256

Dude, seriously, fucking cool it. I guess I'm going to have to go watch the entire movie again to make sure of this, but you're acting like a shit.

>>23257

i'm not the retard ranting on about how jedi have some kind of special bond to their lightsaber and that it somehow counts for their lightsabers not being yanked out of their hands or deactivated.

>>23258

Calm your fucking tits Sheev. Youre acting like a dick.

>>23258

You obviously didn't bother to read the post where I admitted that the theory has a number of solid counterexamples which were brought to my attention, is likely to only ever occur in very special circumstances at most and is more of a concept that I find interesting than something to be taken seriously as a part of overall Force practice. Also a lot of what I've posted in here today isn't even about that.

>>23260

it's a concept your thick head made up and there is zero proof to give it substance, the only example you ever threw in favor of it was debunked almost immediately.

>>23261

There are still a few examples that hint at something similar enough to it to make it not seem completely out of place if it were to be used sparingly, notably the items restricted by alignment and the name crystal. But whatever, this has become a very non-comfy discussion, so I'm leaving for now. This thread is the comfiest thread on the entire site and it shouldn't lose that to pointless bickering.

>>23262

I think its true for some jedi but not all of them. Yoda and Mace strike me as jedi who may have a connection to their sabers, but Luke definitely doesn't strike me as the type who'd do something like that with his lightsaber so TFA's lightsaber vision was really out of place and forced. Of course so did the rest of TFA but that one scene really did not feel appropriate.

>>23262

I can see the appeal of the idea, but from a lore perspective it doesn't fit for me. The Force has always been an entity that affected living things specifically, not machines. Most Jedi even have trouble detecting droids through the Force, it's a specialized skill that requires a conscious effort to learn. And even then it's the droid's power core, not the droids themselves. Lightsabers are inorganic, and so it's hard to justify their having a presence in the Force. You could make an argument that the various naturally-grown saber crystals have a Force connection (such as the Exile's crystal, like you pointed out). However, the Sith use exclusively synthetic crystals, and after reforming into the NJO most Jedi do as well.

>>23263

What is it that Yoda and Mace do that makes you think they'd be good candidates for having a saber with a bond?

>>23264

There is a way around this, but it's a very specialized way. You could engineer a lightsaber out of organic technology like what the Yuuzhan Vong use, albeit without the problems they had with having the Force removed from them.

>>23269

Not psychic bonds per se, but more like fondness that could lead to some sort of link, like the spiritual imprint on the weapon that makes any force-sensitive go "Oh, I sense Yoda's power coming from this weapon", but nothing like TFA's bullshit with force visions or it granting you some kind of stupid force link, but something like if you hold something for too long your scent is bound to get on it, except in this case, instead of your smell, its your power/spirit.

>Mace

I was gonna go into detail about Windu, but then I remembered that he replaced his old one with little care.

>Yoda

Yoda however has never replaced his lightsaber and has had it since he was an apprentice himself. After his defeat at the hands of Sidious, Yoda went out of his way to actually retrieve his lost weapon and kept it as a treasured momentum in his hut on Dagobah.

>>22427

Stop thinking only one person who liked something in TLJ exists

>>20503

Well Maul also just stands and watches obi-wan liberate his torso from his legs. As Obi-wan jumps over him Maul just stands there and tracks him jump over his head and then waits for Obi-Wan to kill him. It would have been so much better if he swung for Obi-wan but missed and got cut in half while recovering from the swing.

>>23245

If i remember correctly all those force users had a personal "force bubble/shield", for a lack of better term, around them that blocked things like force pullings and pokes at random. When force users fought they also had a dispute within the Force like a thug of war.

So they can't simply pull a saber or a force kick in the groin without wearing the other force user field. When we saw chokings and the like it was only when there was a significant difference in strength with Force, the target was worn down or lowered his guard/surprise moves. Obi Wan disarmed Vader on Mustafar no by pulling his saber but by screwing with his mechanical hand, a one time move that he knew he couldn't use again. A surprise move against the mechanics of it, not by force yanking the saber against Vader own Force bubble.

>>23321

The prequels all have some moments in their duels that seemed less than believable, but they also had more energy than the classic trilogy's duels because George asked for that specifically. Somebody posted before this with their rating for all the movies' choreography but it's gone. We could discuss that for a while, but that seems to mostly be the province of people who aren't heavily into the EU, so it may not have anything new to discuss.

>>23336

There is such a thing as Force Protect. Some are better at it than others.

>>23369

>Didn't Droidekas have a massive flaw that when levitated above ground outside their own shield, the shield would then also be triggered by the floor if lowered?

Never heard this.

>I cannot imagine the fucking Jedi and Sith being outsmarted by some (((industrialists and bankers)))

The easiest way for them to proceed would probably be to go the Kyle Katarn route and start learning to use guns and bombs alongside lightsabers, but if the CIS got their hands on a Star Forge and started producing these advanced droidekas with it, it's over for the Jedi and almost all the other Force users. Only the ones that have godlike power levels would escape.

>>23396

Including creative uses of the force and Katarn-tier equipment, the Jedi and Sith could easily deal with any droids even if it means shutting down the factories which cannot be that many.

The Star Forge is it's own issue I would be quite surprised if Rakata tech of that scale could be used by just any old mortal like a Ford Factory.

>>23403

The player has to set Revan to the dark side in KotOR 2 to learn of it, but when Revan leaves to go to unexplored space and fight the true Sith Empire, Revan's Sith Empire abandons the use of the Star Forge because nobody they had left could control it. The only one with the CIS who might have had the power to tame the Star Forge would have been Count Dooku.

An interesting idea that we touched on briefly in the last thread had to do with the possibility of a much more militant Force-using order than the Jedi. For the Jedi to go full Kyle Katarn, they'd have to have an arsenal of weaponry which doesn't fit with a diplomatic corps or arguably even a police department. The concept of a militaristic order was brought up as a way of dodging the need to square the Jedi's focus on diplomacy with the use of the lightlance, which is more of a military weapon than the traditional lightsaber. Converting the Jedi to a full-blown special forces unit may not sit well with many members of the Order. It would cause quite a bit of conflict within the Order. The Sith would have no such compunctions and would use any tactic necessary to defeat the droids, but it may not be enough. Advanced droidekas probably have a level of combat effectiveness comparable to Phase 3 Dark Troopers. We might get an idea of how an advanced droideka would perform by comparing it and regular droidekas to the Dark Trooper as part of a more general discussion of battle droids. This may need a thread of its own, but we can have droid discussion here as long as it's about how to fight somebody who has a lightsaber. The best option a non-Force-using organic has to directly combat a Force user with infantry is undoubtedly to use Dark Troopers or something similar.

>>23369

>Use their bonds against them. Wound the pandavan and the master becomes distressed and unfocused much more than if he was wounded himself. Using hostages and blackmail to break them psychologically might also be possible.

You can do this stuff if you want to max your dark side points, but this isn't an example of lightsaber combat or direct battlefield counters to it, which means it's not pertinent to the thread.

>>23456

This really isn't the most on-topic post you could have made, though the thought of old granny pussy is just about enough to get a Jedi to ignite his lightsaber right into his own skull.

>>23466

She probably looked a lot like the Handmaiden when she was younger, so yeah. Having a prequel to KotOR about young Kreia would have been great. She has a very developed understanding of lightsaber combat, the Force and the more philosophical nuances of its use (and possible destruction), and it would have been fun to see how she acquired it.

>>23448

>An interesting idea that we touched on briefly in the last thread had to do with the possibility of a much more militant Force-using order than the Jedi. For the Jedi to go full Kyle Katarn, they'd have to have an arsenal of weaponry which doesn't fit with a diplomatic corps or arguably even a police department. The concept of a militaristic order was brought up as a way of dodging the need to square the Jedi's focus on diplomacy with the use of the lightlance, which is more of a military weapon than the traditional lightsaber. Converting the Jedi to a full-blown special forces unit may not sit well with many members of the Order. It would cause quite a bit of conflict within the Order.

There’s elements of this in the New Jedi Order books. The mission to Myrkr in Star by Star is probably the best example we have outside of video games of what that would look like.

>>23502

There are probably a ton of missions you could point to and say it's an example of Jedi acting as special forces, but most don't have the Jedi using weapons similar to what special forces would use.

I recently had the thought of examining the gender differences in lightsaber combat styles. The lightsaber has no requirement for high strength, which makes it a good weapon choice for women. However, men still have a reach advantage on average. Given all the other factors in lightsaber combat that we've discussed, I wonder if the objections many military men have voiced to letting women serve in the infantry have grounding here. Objections of this sort may have no relevance because regular infantry isn't the topic here. However, anyone who has a background in martial arts knows that martial arts instructors will teach different students to focus on different techniques according to their body type and personal preference.

>>23569

>I wonder if the objections many military men have voiced to letting women serve in the infantry have grounding here

That's a can of worms I'd rather only crack open, but the short version is, yes, they still do. There are a multitude of physical considerations rather than strength that one must consider, and a number of social considerations beyond the mere physical.

>>23569

Tae Kwon Do guy here:

Even though it's true that women are shittier in a fight, and are never the very best fighters, a chunk of them are above the average male combatant (this chunk does shrink in the military because of the amount of gear that needs to be hauled drastically favors males, but that doesn't apply in SW). What I would expect to see in SW is a disproportionate gender distribution in combat vs study/peaceful vocations. So, while fewer female jedi find themselves on the battlefield, those that end up there do decently well. However, they would be at a clear disadvantage in physical combat against a top-tier male (to my knowledge, the force is best utilized to amplify the user's existing physique), who would rightfully kick their ass.

We generally don't handle students differently based on gender, at least not deliberately; students are pushed to perform as best they can and keep pushing, and they're just paired up with others in their class who show similar ability, with the occasional heavy skill-gap match-up to demonstrate technique, give greater learning opportunities to the lower student, and practice self-control for the better student.

As far as lightsabers go, I can't say, as I only ever got decent with a bowstaff, and haven't fought enough with it to speak on gender differences.

>>23576

>That's a can of worms I'd rather only crack open

Most definitely.

>There are a multitude of physical considerations rather than strength that one must consider, and a number of social considerations beyond the mere physical.

What are those other considerations and how do they apply to a group like the Jedi?

>>23577

>However, they would be at a clear disadvantage in physical combat against a top-tier male (to my knowledge, the force is best utilized to amplify the user's existing physique)

The Force can also be used for direct attack, but if you only use the Force for that, you're basically just a gunner. This isn't the only option you have though. Groups such as the Gray Paladins focus on using a gun with the Force.

>We generally don't handle students differently based on gender, at least not deliberately; students are pushed to perform as best they can and keep pushing, and they're just paired up with others in their class who show similar ability, with the occasional heavy skill-gap match-up to demonstrate technique, give greater learning opportunities to the lower student, and practice self-control for the better student.

I don't mean discriminate deliberately by gender. If you get a female student who's the next Wonder Woman, she needs to have the opportunity to develop her potential. People could quibble about whether discriminating by physique is soft discrimination, but people quibble about whatever else they consider discrimination as well. It really makes very little difference in the end. Fighters naturally gravitate to one technique or another, but you need a grasp of all the major techniques in a style to be able to determine the ones suited to your fighting style and to have enough of a repertoire to be able to handle a variety of situations.

>As far as lightsabers go, I can't say, as I only ever got decent with a bowstaff, and haven't fought enough with it to speak on gender differences.

I have a bit of staff training myself, though I prefer to fight with a spear instead. Japanese tradition places a focus on instructing women in naginatajutsu because the reach of a spear can help them compensate for lower physical strength. But this isn't a viable way to go for most women in Star Wars because you need cortosis/phrik/etc. to make lightspears.

>>23588

>I don't mean discriminate deliberately by gender

I think I understand. The average female student will end up being paired with another female (by which I mean much more frequently per capita; not that many female students). Many female students 'peak' at a certain point when it comes to strength and pulling off more strenuous moves. When this happens instructors will encourage them to focus more on endurance and flexibility (and of course we keep trying to push harder), so in a way we do handle things differently based on body type. It is worth noting that these vary by class and instructor; often times most of the class' time is spent just running down a prescribed regimen for all students (mainly practicing technique), but the less populated ones were handled on a more student-by-student basis. Most of the differences in individual training come from what practice they do at home (if they follow any of our recommendations, which I bet you most of them don't).

Story time: we had a female Olympian at our school (no medals, but she passed qualification once). She wasn't better than the older male instructors (we had a couple great ones; it was a good school), but she beat me whenever we sparred. The most notable difference I saw in her fighting technique was that every time she threw a kick or a punch (she focused on kicks), she would scream -not yelling, but a horrible shriek that must have taken a lot of practice to nail down. I must say that this non-physical tactic is noticeably effective. Not sure if it was mild sensory overload or just the oddness of it, but it certainly threw me off a bit. So I guess screeching might be more effective for women, lol.

I can't seem to go a single post without putting a semicolon somewhere.

>>23618

>The most notable difference I saw in her fighting technique was that every time she threw a kick or a punch (she focused on kicks)

I can see this being the case because legs are longer than arms, so it offers a chance for women to make up a bit of reach. But it throws the user off balance. If she was an Olympian, she might have had the balance needed to make this work. Most guys seem to lack this level of balance. But you get a few like Muay Thai fighters who manage to pull it off. The major flaw with a woman focusing on kicks is that she doesn't have the raw power of a Muay Thai man, so the danger of stopping kicks with a grab isn't as pronounced. You can also get inside the minimum range of a female kicker easier.

>>23628

>Physically, there's endurance, reaction time, ability to withstand g-forces (relevant for pilots), and potential to build muscle mass

Reaction time is the only thing there that women can be the same on average at, and Force users have the power to see into the future, making this less of a problem. The Force can mitigate all these things to some extent, but men don't have to put the effort into it, leaving them free to use the Force in other ways.

>The social issues are mostly based on male camaraderie, group dynamic, and the breakdown of such when a female element is introduced. And while in conventional militaries these issues are arguably even more important than the physical disparities, because Jedi operate alone or in pairs, it's not going to be nearly as pressing an issue.

This is generally the rule for Jedi, but we see the Jedi working alongside the Republic military frequently throughout its history, including cases where a female Jedi led conventional military units. Maybe it's not quite as detrimental to unit cohesion to have a female commander as it is to have them as grunts because the commander has to be heavily protected at a base anyway and rarely fights an enemy directly, and this describes what a Jedi like Bastila does with Battle Meditation very well. We also have the issue that a female commander, however competent, might not order a male soldier to perform a dangerous but necessary task out of romantic affection for him. I largely agree that the female fighters should not be on the front lines of a regular military. If they join the military at all, they work best as support personnel. Even women who have what it takes to fight effectively should only ever be used as solo or paired operatives like spies or saboteurs - your classic kunoichi. The only time a female soldier should ever be on the front lines is in a "last stand" or some other desperate scenario where you need everyone capable of holding a weapon. History tells us that this is how woman warriors were generally used in the event of there actually being one. They commanded units and defended key structures in the regular forces and also occasionally drove combat vehicles after militaries motorized, but the best way to employ them was to gather information and assassinate enemies. You may not have a woman as a top gun flyer, realistically speaking, but she doesn't have to withstand g-forces as a tank or naval commander. She may be a drone vehicle pilot, however. But Star Wars has a very large selection of fully autonomous droid units of all classes.

We're going to have a new year soon, so I thought a post about something lightsaber-related was in order here to close out this year and bring us to new things. My progress on the crossguard lightlance piece has stalled because I can't figure out how it would be implemented into the setting, and for various other reasons. So I'm going to try a new approach inspired by watching what the separatist canon writers have been working on. I also want to try to bring that to this thread in additional ways. I'll post more about this over the next few days. Suffice to say that there's going to be enough material for a long time. This is also going to require more than just martial arts knowledge, so it represents an opportunity for the wider fanbase to theorize about lightsabers.

I wanted to get this going by closing the book on the discussion of female fighters, for now anyway. RecAnon mentioned in the TOR thread that the only real limitation a female lightsaber user would have is a lack of ability to use Djem So. But Djem So only has an application with a blade that isn't weightless, so nobody would use it anyway if lightsaber combat was more realistic. I was going to mention the possibility of solving the gender issue with female troops by simply having gender-segregated units. The problem with this is that you don't always have the luxury of determining which units will be available to fight at a time and place of your choosing. You may have a scenario where the only way to assemble a large enough force is to allow units of different genders to fight together. Some armies in the real world have used the gender segregation approach, with mixed results. The female units have mostly served as defenders of established territory rather than assaulting enemy positions, as stated above. So fan works that aim to be more realistic should limit the amounts and roles of female soldiers. But TOR allows any class to be either gender, including basic troopers, so there were at least some female units in the Republic. The Mandalorians would also have some because of their cultural emphasis on war. Presumably everyone hasn't just replaced their entire army with droids due to not trusting droids. Overall, you may have a fairly egalitarian system of Force training, but the backbone of the military will continue to be male. But much like the insistence of pro-nu-Wars retards that anyone who doesn't like their trash fire is afraid of women, this is mostly just a distraction from the important things.

What place sells the best lightsabers models? And is there one that makes custom hilts?

>>28525

I think Ultrasabers is considered to be the highest quality producer out there. They've got a metric fuckton of hilt and color options, but unfortunately it doesn't look like they do custom orders anymore. I think there are a fair few of smaller builders out there that will do custom orders, so what you could do is ask for them to make a hilt that's compatible with the system that Ultrasabers uses, then buy the electronic guts and blade from Ultrasabers and put them on your custom hilt.

>>28547

Looks like this guy can do custom commissions, the first I've found but I'm not sure if it's the best:

https://genesiscustomsabers.com

The style of lightsaber fighting suits it's respective trilogy.

In the OT we see the fighting styles of an inexperienced kid gradually come to grips with a lightsaber, an old man long past his best and not intent on winning, and another old man who's crippled and half machine.

In the PT we see what the Jedi and the Sith could actually do at their peak.

I guess the fights in the sequel trilogy also fit what those movies are trying to do, but only in as much as they're a blatant attempt to retread the OT, like everything in those movies.

>>28552

>In the PT we see what the Jedi and the Sith could actually do at their peak.

Not quite. In the PT what we see is a Jedi Order who are highly prosperous and successful, but they are accustomed to peace, not to wartime or genuine large-scale threats. I would say that probably plays into the amount of flourish we see in those fights.

>>28552

It's also worth noting that in the OT, all lightsaber fights are between family or former best friends. Even just within ANH pre-"Iamyourfather", Obi-Wan mentions he was a mentor to Vader. Nobody in the OT duels really wants to kill the other, but are compelled to fight for other reasons, even Vader. The only exception is Luke on Cloud City, and he still sucks at saber combat at that time.

I meant to make a series of posts expounding on polearms, and then everything just self-destructed. You guys would never believe all the retardation that's happened to me over the last month. The highlight of the whole thing is that my hard drive is failing. Fortunately I managed to get my files backed up, so the documentation that I've written up to this point won't be lost. Anyway, watching the worldbuilding going on with separatist canon has made me think they shouldn't have all the fun with that. We need historians to more fully flesh out the history of the lightsaber. We have little such documentation to my knowledge. Wookieepedia only tells us that the modern lightsaber wasn't adopted until about 5000 BBY due to the various engineering problems getting it to work. I'd actually like to write something focusing on the history of the lightlance. This is partly to know where the crossguard lightlance fits in. Historical spear combat has the polearm being used in formation most of the time, but a spear with a crossguard big enough to make an impact on the use of the weapon would cause formations to interfere with each other's weapons. This would mean the formation needs to be loosened, robbing it of the essential mass it needs to win a shoving match. This might be a less significant problem with spear and shield because the shield to your side will restrict your spear's movement.

The jumonji yari was far more expensive than the standard yari anyway, which prevented this from ever being a consideration in real history to begin with. The crossguard lightlance has energy blades instead of the complex metal workpiece that needs to be forged for the jumonji yari, but it still pays the cost penalty by needing lightsaber-resistant materials. But given that a civilization advanced enough to build a lightlance wouldn't use massed infantry formations because of artillery and explosives, it's hard to see how the lightlance fits in anywhere. The only ones that use the lightlance with any frequency are the Eternal Empire's Knights of Zakuul and the Imperial Shadow Guards of Palpatine's Empire. Considering how Starkiller just blasts the latter with Force powers, that might not have been a very smart move by Palpy, but even a mere grenade poses a threat. It seems like Vitiate saw some kind of potential in them and Sheev took notes. But what use he could have had for them is a mystery.

A standard lightlance has problems dealing with blasters, and pike formations have problems with area of effect weapons. You can solve the first problem by using a crossguard, which also removes the ability to use those mortar magnet groupings you don't want to use anyway. This would cast the crossguard lightlance into the same hero unit role that we already often see frontline Force users in otherwise, while basically removing the standard version entirely. But the fact remains that the standard lightlance was used in large numbers by certain groups, which begs the question of why. I can understand the Sith not wanting to let any of their minor acolytes become too individually powerful by giving them a weapon that's individually stronger, but sending them out to fight with a lesser weapon will just get them killed.

Some more things: A new idea for a lightsaber has hit me. I developed the concept a bit when I could, but unfortunately I haven't had the time to do much with it and probably couldn't even if I did. I wish Trekkie was here, but I haven't seen him around lately. This is exactly the kind of thing he might be able to help with. This is something of a departure from previous lightsaber designs. It basically takes the saberstaff and modifies the hilt to achieve what amounts to a bat'leth-saber. This bat'leth-saber uses a pair of saberstaff hilts with struts in between connecting the two. The front hilt has the double lightsaber emitters on it. The rear hilt has much greater length than the front one, allowing you to get more blade length and rotate the weapon faster at the same time. You can add an extra system of perpendicular grips on the rear hilt and make it anywhere from only slightly longer than the front hilt to the length of a full staff. I also thought about building it out of a modified guard shoto pair. It seems like a very good way of defending against the crossguard lightlance because the bat'leth would be good at blocking the crossblades because of its extreme rotational speed, definitely better than the standard saberstaff. I'm still working out how to get around it with the crossblades, but by far the best option is just turning off the crossblades.

I also wonder how someone might realistically use a lightsaber with an excessively large blade, like Gorc's lightclub from Jedi Knight or a protosaber using its enhanced power supply to lengthen the blade while still retaining its full power. This would be a greatsword equivalent, and we had a brief discussion in the last thread of greatswords versus polearms, which pointed out that greatswords were often seen as equal to polearms. A lightsaber greatsword sacrifices the weight of a physical greatsword, which makes it a great deal easier for a polearm user to push around. But Trakata mitigates this and the sheer speed of a lightsaber greatsword would make up for the loss of weight. It seems as though any lightsaber should be able to temporarily extend the blade with full power at the expense of power cell life. Wookieepedia's protosaber article describes this being done sometimes. But it appears considerably less frequently than you'd think.

I might not post very much for a while until I can ensure that I have access to a reliable computer and handle the other 9000 retarded things I have to deal with right now. But I'm still going to at least drop in occasionally. Things are probably going to heat up again soon once the Episode IX marketing blitz starts.

>2 posts get truncated for being too long

I really need to edit my posts better. You probably wouldn't have the rear hilt of the bat'leth saber be that much longer than a standard saberstaff hilt anyway. It's funny how a few of the posts from last thread reminded me of games like Sonic or other stuff like TMNT. This calls yet another video game reference to mind that I never expected to see here. This reminds me of Arkanoid because of how the hilt is shaped and the potential for unrivaled blaster deflection. Now that was a great game. They don't make them like that anymore. Maybe this stuff has enough discussion potential to keep things going until I can find the time to get the rest of that guide done. Hopefully some of the separatist canon projects will have a place for it when that happens. But if I just stay here posting about nostalgia, I'll never get to sleep.

>>22252

>The PT fights have lots of random spins and instances of the combatants seemingly trying to attack the enemy blade instead of attempting to hit the enemy themselves.

I don't know anything about swordsmanship, but for the Maul fight at least doesn't that actually make sense?

If one of the Jedi can control the movement of Maul's blade it can provide openings for the other, since he can't move his blades independently of one another. Even if the swing isn't going to hit him, it may be necessary for him to parry it anyway to avoid the Jedi being in position for a follow-up that would, and meanwhile the other Jedi could strike from a different angle.

>>30610

It's usually better not to parry the first attack if you can avoid it because they're vulnerable when they miss and you can then attack them successfully. You shouldn't parry with an eye towards countering a followup, but towards getting an attack of your own in. The first attack they launched could be a feint, and parrying it will achieve the opposite result of putting you in position to get hit by a followup. Granted, feinting successfully against a well-trained fighter is very difficult, and doubly so against a well-trained fighter with supernatural powers. But lightsaber blades have effectively no weight, making feints easier than they would be with a physical blade, and feints are also important if both of the belligerents have supernatural powers. The martial arts that I've studied stress economy of motion, which means making as few parries or any other motions as you can. Other styles may have different preferences, but lightsabers are very quick and agile weapons well-suited to this technique. Why risk making a large movement when a small one will do just as much damage because you're using a lightsaber? Why parry if you can end the battle right there by dodging and countering, especially if you get fooled by a feint and parry the wrong attack, leaving yourself open? Always go for the enemy and not his weapon, unless there's something to be gained by not killing him.

For the fight with Maul specifically, it's normally impossible to get the kind of blade control you're describing on an opponent. It's possible for the Maul fight because of the flaws of the saberstaff design, which have been extensively discussed in this thread and the one preceding it. Hitting the saberstaff at a point towards the end of the blade allows you to get more leverage on it. Still, the fact that a certain action is theoretically possible doesn't mean you should do it. The principle of not moving more than you have to still applies to parrying here, and one of the other flaws of a saberstaff is that it requires much more movement than a standard lightsaber to do anything, which strongly favors a single saber user who practices economy of motion. Parry only if an opening will show itself by doing so, and make parries a quick deflection instead of a prolonged struggle. Also, a competent saberstaff user will be playing heavy offense, rotating constantly and never giving you the chance to control their blade. Maul is primarily a practitioner of Juyo and a Sith, both of which stress this sort of approach above all. So in short, it still doesn't make sense for a lightsaber duelist to go after another's blade even against someone using a saberstaff.

>>20494

The first part of the sword choreography in the forest (where Rey has to run away from Kylo) was not badly made but she should have lost it because Kylo is trained

>>30598

I switched my flag a while back.

You think you could draw this Bat'leth saber in Oekaki? I think I have it visualized correctly but I want to be sure.

>>30645

I changed my flag in the middle of the last thread, so I can't really complain about it. Chiss are cool. I have an irrational phobia of trying to draw even simple things though, because my attempts at learning to draw in the past have all met with failure. I'm also very reluctant to use the oekaki app because it requires enabling scripts, as do most of the other major functions here. I'd rather not have scripts enabled on (((Jim the Freemason's Pig Farming Extravaganza))).

>>30659

This is actually very close to what I'd imagined, but there are a few important changes to make to it.

>It honestly seems really bulky and cumbersome to me, especially with those perpendicular grips–I can only imagine you accidentally sticking yourself in the abdomen with those.

The perpendicular grips are purely optional. You can make them less cumbersome by either orienting them vertical perpendicular instead of horizontal so they're like a steering wheel, or just making them a lot shorter. The version of this which is built out of an upgraded guard shoto pair would have 2 lightsaber emitters in those exact places that project a blade along the back of the rear hilt parallel to it; these would obviously not be in use in bat'leth mode because you have to grip the rear hilt. An accidental activation which would remove your fingers would be possible for this arrangement, so I wonder why lightsabers don't have MGS-style ID-tagging. Biometric scanning is more than advanced enough in Star Wars to do the job. This is similar to what I was talking about earlier with the user being Force bonded to their lightsaber, but it requires only technology.

>blade clashes with blade all of that torque is going to be applied to those thin struts, which look prime to break by way of torque. If you make the struts thicker or more numerous, you're adding more weight and bulk to a weapon that's already pretty chunky.

There should be only 1 or 2 thick struts instead of many thin ones, 1 for a dedicated bat'leth saber and 2 for a guard shoto pair that can disassemble. I envisioned making the front hilt much shorter than it is in your rendering for maximum blade length and weight reduction. The dedicated version also has the potential for a single extremely short connecting strut that places the hilts right next to each other in exchange for only being able to grip it by the extra perpendicular grips.

>since this design doesn't lend itself towards stabbing, you can't put that weight behind a good thrust the way you can with a lightlance.

This criticism is also true of both the normal variant of the saberstaff and the actual Star Trek bat'leth, and is one of the reasons that many consider it a dumb weapon. I was hoping that you might be able to give us some more information about the Star Trek community's opinion on this.

>And on top of all that, this thing seems like it would be difficult to actuate–one of the advantages of a lightsaber is that you can have it go from your belt to fully lit in your hand in under a second, even if you find a way to store the hilt that's easily accessible, you're almost certainly going to fumble with the controls, between the two hilts and the struts and everything else.

And this is without even making it out of tonfa, which is probably the best way to make it more accessible but introduces additional problems with engineering. Even the tonfa has been labeled as too cumbersome by some police officers who prefer the straight nightstick.

>You're going through an awful lot of trouble just for a longer moment arm, have you considered just making the hilt much longer, and the blades shorter?

This would be a double-ended lightlance, which I mentioned way back in the first post I made about my opinions of fighting styles and lightsaber variants in the last thread. I was looking for something that seems to specifically counter the crossguard lightlance in order to develop techniques around it so that its forms can be the best they can possibly be.

>>30660

>I was hoping that you might be able to give us some more information about the Star Trek community's opinion on this.

Usually they just say it's dumb and move on, /strek/ doesn't usually talk about melee combat. However, if we're looking at the actual Bat'Leth, one thing we see on screen is Worf using lots of "off-balance" grips with the Bat'leth, where he's holding it only at one end instead of both, to maximize reach and weight/torque behind each blow. So even in-universe, the weaknesses of the Bat'leth are acknowledged at some level, but for the most part we see characters working around these failings and compensating for them, rather than turning them around into an advantage.

>specifically counter the crossguard lightlance in order to develop techniques around it so that its forms can be the best they can possibly be.

What about going the other way, and having light daggers/shoto for the purpose of getting inside the lance's reach? While riskier, it does seem like a more surefire way to counter the lance's best qualities. Maybe a dagger+a net or forked implement in the off hand to catch the lightlance by its crosspiece, disabling it long enough to get inside its reach.

>>30663

In addition to the odd grip, the bat'leth is also a very heavy weapon requiring both hands, which is expected due to its large metal content which is enough for at least two normal one-handed swords. I've personally handled a replica bat'leth when I encountered one at a sword shop, confirming that expectation. This saberstaff variant gets rid of much of the weight, so it improves that part substantially. You'd still have the same kinds of off-balance grips being used, though. The only reasons the standard saberstaff/bat'leth grip would be used as far as I can tell would be to fight blasters or the crossguard lightlance.

>Maybe a dagger+a net or forked implement in the off hand to catch the lightlance by its crosspiece

A net or another long-ranged non-rigid melee weapon such as a whip or lasso is an interesting idea, but you'd have to make it out of lightsaber-resistant material, and enough exposure to the lightsaber blade will still cut through it. Telekinesis can get an entangling weapon away as well, but telekinesis against a non-rigid weapon is much harder than against a rigid one. This might be an effective strategy against lightsaber wielders in general. There have been at least a few cases of it being used against Force users. Boba Fett used an entangler against Luke at the Sarlacc battle, but that's the only one I can remember right now. Using Trakata to get your weapon free of entanglement is an option, but if they get your body entangled, your options become very limited. A parrying device of some sort is something I've devoted a good deal of effort to countering in the writing I've already done.

I'm still stuck with the problems I described earlier, but I've made a bit of progress on them. Here's hoping a fairly quick resolution is in the cards. I haven't had as much time as I'd like to devote to this, so I just saw this news article about lightsabers which was posted several days ago. I had to post it here because no one else has yet. Lightsaber dueling has officially been recognized as a sport by the French Fencing Federation.

https://www.euronews.com/2019/02/19/the-force-awakens-in-france-as-lightsaber-duelling-becomes-official-sport

This reminds me of the old days of wanting competitive video games to get more recognition. I always sort of wished for Jedi Academy to gain an e-sports audience, but after all the horrors we've seen in e-sports, that may not have been a good idea. Maybe they'll have a way to accommodate lightsaber variants.

>>31286

Are e-sports really that bad? I really only watch Starcraft games and don’t pay much mind to drama or anything like that.

>>31295

You're talking about the community that gave SonicFox an award solely for being a token gay black dude even though there are many pro gamers who are much more skilled than he is. The e-sports community has a terminal case of SJW, especially the fighting game community. Given their invasion of the Star Wars community and their attempts to politicize sporting events like with the NFL, them going after the professional lightsaber duelist community is almost guaranteed. We may have to spin this part off into another thread at some point. I'd like to keep the political discussion in this thread to a minimum, but we need a heads-up now in case they make a move.

>>31299

I should also note that unless lightsaber dueling gets recognized as a sport by an American sports organization, we probably won't have to worry about this on a large scale. But it doesn't seem like a terribly implausible occurrence now given how popular the lightsaber is and the fact that this story was reported by numerous major news agencies, so we have to be aware of that scenario and plan accordingly. That's probably a ways away, though. Until then, we just have to keep calm and discuss lightsabers. The discussion here has had a focus on realistic lightsaber combat with an eye toward using the knowledge gleaned from it in fan works. We briefly talked about these guys in the last thread, and Trekkie/Chissman pointed out correctly that a training regimen with a polycarbonate replica saber won't teach you how to wield a real lightsaber if one were ever to be built due to the effectively weightless blade, so this isn't that relevant to what we've been discussing.

>>31300

Well I like to think that Starcraft doesn’t suffer from quite the same issue since you have to have actual skill to compete against the Koreans.

Though as a whole you’re probably right. The leftists have a habit of infecting anything and everything. But how would you propose one practice lightsaber combat without the use of a practice blade?

>>31301

>But how would you propose one practice lightsaber combat without the use of a practice blade?

Use either of the sword types we've discussed with a very light blade because those are the closest thing to a lightsaber you'll get in real life in terms of the weight. Those would be the fencing foil or the Chinese jian.

>>31299

SJWs target autism. They are the exact chemical opposite, but combined creates chaos.

I finally managed to get a few minutes to post something else about spears, so here goes. I figured out a way to defeat the bat'leth saber with the crossguard lightlance, but it changes the entire form substantially, so it's going to be hard to square it with everything else I've done so far. It relies on the fact that the body mechanics of the bat'leth and all other staff weapons prohibit a stout defense against lower attacks. This also applies to some extent to all other melee weapons. Normal spear forms have a strong emphasis on attacking the body because it's the biggest target and the easiest to hit with a thrust. But you have a good deal more leverage than they do from the knees down, meaning you can actually win a shoving match with them if you just aim for their knees with the crossguard. This only works against human or humanoid duelists, though.

I also thought about why Sidious and Vitiate would assign a normal lightsaber pike to their elite guards when the crossguard version is so much better. I came to the conclusion that it's for the same reason they do everything else they do. TIE fighters are laughably bad spacecraft, but Star Destroyers are the dopest capital ships in the galaxy. Neither one of them is a retard, so there has to be a rationale. It's all about them wanting to ensure teamwork and obedience to their authority. I actually had a couple other things to discuss, but that's enough for now. We can talk about the other stuff when I have it more developed.

>>31497

>TIE fighters are laughably bad spacecraft

In a vacuum, yes. But you have to remember that TIE fighters are also incredibly, incredibly cheap to manufacture, and their low mass means they have very high maneuverability that can only be matched by fighters much more expensive than they are. You can think of them as an analog to the Nipponese Zero Fighter, which was very good at what it did.

>>31498

That's more of a discussion for a thread about starships, but Japanese fighters had a tendency to be used as missiles by their kamikaze-happy pilots. This is probably the best use of a standard TIE fighter. Many people from the hard sci-fi space warfare community question the need for starfighters of any kind because it's more fuel-efficient to eschew them entirely in favor of missile launchers. Starfighters also only make any sense if armor and shielding are weak, so you can't make a capital ship that can stand up to any serious damage. Star Wars capital ships have great durability, adding another point against the use of starfighters. Actually, we already have a starship thread, so I'm going to go post in that about this.

With respect to the Imperial troops who use a lightsaber pike, it behooves us to remember that they're much more expensive than normal lightsabers. Imperial Shadow Guards and the Knights of Zakuul would be the ground forces equivalent of a TIE defender or some other ultra-high-end starfighter. The demand for loyalty is much stricter among the elite forces. Otherwise you get a guy like Admiral Zaarin who decides that he should be the Emperor instead. This emphasis on unquestioning loyalty was prudent but insufficient, because disloyalty proved to be Sheev's undoing, first from Vader and then from Carnor Jax arranging for his clone bodies to be sabotaged.