/pnd/ - Politics, News, Debate

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>>391799

I think he's right. Trump wants to get back to business in Russia, but he can't unless he gives Putin something. Why not the fucking libs? And why would he choose Vance as VP then? Also, I'm sure he'll be given a nice selection of Russian chicks as a price.

Trump is my hero.

>>391867

I wouldn't mind Putin ruling the US. If he wants Ukraine he goes and gets it. If he wanted the US he would get us as well. I'm happy Trump and Vance are going to be nice to Putin and not give a fuck about other "allies" that can't spend a dime on defense. Fuck them all. If you don't pay, you don't get anything. We can leave the rest of the world to Russia, we can have our party at home.

>>391799

We can't win a proxy war against Russia.

We can't win a real war against Russia.

Trump will do well to retreat and appease Putin.

>>391867

EXACTLY, THANK YOU

>>391867

>>391868

>>391872

Here is the reality you need to understand: there will never be a direct war between nuclear superpowers without one, or the other, initiating a nuclear first strike. America would not lose and risk everything without destroying Russia using nukes. Russia would not lose and risk everything without destroying America using nukes. The same doctrine would apply to India and China if they happened to be at war with one another. You do not hold nuclear weapons for the sake of starting wars. You hold nuclear weapons to deter others from direct confrontation, each side knowing at any given time they did "win" the other side can then annihilate them after being defeated. THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS. A DIRECT WAR DETERRENT.

So here is the problem. Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons. They are not a nuclear superpower, Russia made assured they will not become one by joining NATO. The dilemma Ukraine has is they cannot win a war without us being directly involved. The bigger dilemma we have is we cannot win that war directly against Russia unless we risk Russia initiating a nuclear first strike against us. Russia has made it very clear that IS on the table, IF we decide to directly go to war against them. That means the world would be at risk of nuclear war, all because some loony selfish war hawks don't know when to stop escalating this crisis.

Furthermore, there is 0% chance I or anyone in my family is going to go fight Russia in some ditch 2,000 miles away. I have friends who have said the same to me in discussion before. There are other Americans that feel the same way about this. So, whether you like it or not, the only reasonable solution is to urge Ukraine to take up a peace settlement with Russia…. before they lose everything. Before we find ourselves in a nuclear war, and possibly civil war over all this.

>>391799

THIS.

Homos invading other homos simple human nature really

>>391875

Russia is already fighting you.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/us/politics/russia-afghanistan-bounties.html

>>391888

We should have taken the oil and got the hell out of that shithole within the first few years we occupied. Why else would we have been there in the first place!?

>>391890

Yes, you are right. Our soldiers were killed by Russia because we stayed too long. We shouldn’t do anything that upsets Putin.

>>391902

If we had smart, decent common sense leadership the US wouldn't be enemies with Russia or China or Iran at all, we'd be trade partners, not the world police ideologues!

>>391906

Exactly. We need new alliances.

Russia.

China.

North Korea.

Iran.

Venezuela.

Trump was right visiting Kim Jong-un.

Those are the values we should stand for.

>>391909

We could still be allies with Europe and the rest of the West. If they have a problem with us being allies with others that's their own problem, not ours. Yes, I would love world peace and unity. We should even join the BRICS and I don't see why Europe wouldn't either someday.

>>391914

One day all Europe will be Russia. Then we can be friends with them.

>>391917

You are being brainwashed by the media, it's not going to happen.

The worst that would happen if Europe started a direct war firing missiles into Russia, well, at that point Russia won't invade they'd just start bombing back military bases and critical infrastructure in Europe.

Again, this is totally avoidable. Completely avoidable.

>>391918

Russia normally doesn't bomb military bases:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo

Russia has no borders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou8mI_ce80s

Putin won't stop. I'm happy the Trump and Vance will be able to submit to him and appease him.

>>391921

Trump will know how to handle these other leaders, right now our leadership is too stupid to know what they are doing or the risks they are taking, they are gambling with our lives and I'm here to tell you I'm not going to have it. Fuck them, Russia is not escalating it's NATO/US/Europe that currently is pushing for a wider war and to get directly involved. We never gave them our permission to escalate this war. Leave it in Ukraine and we don't care. Giving money and arms to Ukraine is one thing (fine)…. but we are NOT willing to send our family members to die on their soil in some meat grinder for them, no absolutely not! If you want to go die for Ukraine you go do it yourself, nothing is stopping you.

>>391924

Yes, he knows. The same way he handled Kim Jong-un:

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/trump-surprises-with-pledge-to-end-military-exercises-in-south-korea-idUSKBN1J816M/

I know he will do the right thing with Putin. Even if it costs us land/international leadership/allies/etc.

>>391930

And, at that time, Kim Jong-un stopped threatening us, and Trump stopped threatening him, and Kim Jong-un started to treat America with respect, because someone from the US sat down with him for once, listened to him, listened to his concerns, and realized something….. we realized that we both had a lot more in common then we think! We leaned we can get along with some dictators, that not all dictators are bad people, that some just want to do what is best for their own nation. And guess what? It was a beautiful site, actual real diplomacy for once since 50+ years!! I'm talking Americana 1960s style diplomacy, it was wonderful!!!

>>391934

Yes, the threat stopped. As a sample, you can check the following events that happened after Trump negotiations:

2019:

1 December: North Korea conducts tests of a new ICBM engine.

14 December: North Korea keeps testing long range missiles that could threaten the US.

21 December: The New York Times reported that "American military and intelligence officials tracking North Korea’s actions by the hour say they are bracing for an imminent test of an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of reaching American shores, but appear resigned to the fact that President Trump has no good options to stop it." Pyongyang had previously promised a "Christmas gift" if progress was not seen on relaxation of American sanctions. NBC News published commercial satellite photos showing what appeared to be the production and modification of ICBM launchers at a Pyongsong site.

31 December: The Korean Central News Agency announced that Kim had abandoned his moratoriums on nuclear and intercontinental ballistic missile tests, quoting Kim as saying, "the world will witness a new strategic weapon to be possessed by the DPRK in the near future."

2020

17 January: John Hyden, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, states that North Korea is "building new missiles, new capabilities, new weapons as fast as anybody on the planet."

10 October: North Korea unveiled a massive ICBM during a military parade.

Apart from the photo of Trump saluting a North Korean general (WTF, really????), the negotiations allowed Kim Jong-Un to understand that he can get whatever he wants from Trump if he pressures enough.

So now we need to appease two dictators: Putin and Kim Jong-Un. Fortunately, Trump is the appeasement expert, and he will make sure these two guys are happy. I wonder what Trump is going to give them, though. Anything so we avoid a nuclear war, right?

>>391954

I'm perfectly fine with them testing their nukes. We should be testing our nukes too. As long as it is just military muscle flexing it's alright. However, we should be doing our best to stay out of wars and not be starting wars. War should only be reserved when all levels of diplomacy fail and an enemy is *directly attacking you. And that does not count false flag attacks clearly staged by your own government like 9/11 or Gulf of Tonkin (both having been exposed as false flags that provoked unnecessary wars)!!!

Like I said, if you wish to fight Russia, then sign up as a mercenary to go fight in Ukraine. I'm staying home with my family. That's all there is to it.

I have an idea to prevent incidents like Ukraine from ever happening again.

Every nation should be developing nuclear weapons secretly. Then once they have a few nukes, announce them with a test run to show the world. Then never give those nukes up. Wars resolved. No country would dare invade a nuclear superpower. It is literally suicide doing so. Russia would have never invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had nukes to use against Russia. This goes the same for every nation, that's why nuclear superpowers won't ever invade one another. Mutually assured destruction is the best deterrent. It's like arming everyone in a crowd, and you are in the middle of the armed crowd, you gonna try to start some shit?

Good news: >>391929

Space based nukes! Every nation should be developing these! What happens when any nation can defend themselves this way? NO other nation would be dumb enough to risk fucking with them. That means no more wars. I say nuclear proliferation is necessary at this point, the more nukes the better!!!

>>391955

I think everybody here agrees that appeasing Russia and North Korea is the best way to go. We just need to agree on what's acceptable as appeasement.

>>391960

It's not like we have to suck their dick or give up land. We just need diplomacy and to settle our differences and negotiate with one another. It is not impossible to do that. We did that with the USSR. We have done it with China before too. Trump did that with "little rocket man" in North Korea and they became FRIENDS. Friends after threatening to nuke one another btw LOL. That's pretty fucking good diplomacy if you ask me.

I truly believe Russia and the US have potential to be friends too, allies. We could be trading resources, negotiating space programs, setting up free trade agreements with the BRICS, all that stuff. I bet they would help us build back our manufacturing base here too. Huge potential. Potential that we all lose from endless war.

>>391962

If we don't suck their dicks, this happens:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg64npg33r3o#

Now we need to give them something to get one of us back.

>>391970

These are the EXACT REASONS to be diplomatic. America and Russia can negotiate a prisoner swap deal. Release a Russian prisoner from the US for an American prisoner in Russia. That's part of diplomacy, negotiation.

>>391971

Yes, but if we disagree on something with them, they will do it again. And we'll have to give them something. It's always like that.

I'm happy that Trumps knows the dynamic. He gave to Kim Jong-Un. He gave to Putin. He will do it again, there will be peace at a high but reasonable cost, and he will be able to focus on domestic issues.

>>391972

Zelensky called Trump Friday and has finally been receptive to making a peace deal. I think they all know the writing on the wall. Sorry, but the US does not want a direct war with Russia. That's just utter suicide for both nations.

>>391995

Some knowledgeable people disagree with you:

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/19/politics/video/trump-phone-call-zelensky-ukraine-bolton-source-digvid

By the way, do you know which country has the expertise, the materials and the technology to develop very quickly nuclear weapons? Right, Ukraine. Deny them help, and you'll have the nuclear war you are begging for.

And don't worry, it won't be a Ukraine vs Russia thing. Russia will accuse the US of providing nuclear weapons to Ukraine. They are looking for excuses to destroy the US:

https://au.news.yahoo.com/russian-tv-hosts-bleak-nuclear-war-prediction-011905108.html?guccounter=1

The best of it all is that Russians don't care if they die. They just want to kill Ukrainians. And Americans.

>>391995

So I know you are excited to see nukes fired. But be careful with what you wish,

>>392007

>>392008

I doubt any governments want to start a global nuclear war. Maybe some insane dolts in the US, Ukraine, Russia & Europe might… but what can we do to stop it? Nothing. All I can do is hope for the best and prepare for the worst in upside down clown world. I sure will not partake in any conflict, all I can do is vote for a sane leader who wants peace (Trump) and hope all goes well. I too don't know if it will end that way, so I'm glad I've been a prepper for many years and I'm glad I don't live in a populated city.

By the way, Bolton is a war mongering neo-con. Trump should have never selected that piece of shit to take part in his administration. Hopefully he learned his lesson this time around.

>>392007

Oh gosh, you are right.

If Ukraine develops nukes, what will Trump give to them in order to avoid a nuclear war?

How can we get peace with both Ukraine and Russia if both of them have nukes and Russia wants to destroy Ukraine?

Is there a solution? I think Trump will have to give something to all of them. It can allow Russia to take Ukraine, and it can give US land to Ukraine, so they have a place to develop their own nation.

>>392011

None of that will happen. These people are just scared. They are scared because they have been told over and over and over that it would be the "end of democracy" and "end of Western civilization" if Ukraine loses to Russia. That won't end up being true though. What will happen is Western governments, the neo-con political establishment and the mainstream media will look like complete fools and failures. Lots of rich cronies will lose their billions of dollars worth of Ukrainian investments $$$. Maybe some other nations might not take the US & Europe as seriously anymore, and that also scares the hell out of NATO. In the end, Ukraine would lose maybe 1/3rd of their land after a collapse of their government and military. Russia annexing all the Donbass border regions. Then they bolster their own borders and go on with international trade with BRICS+ nations, continuing to trade outside the dollar and euro.

Escalating this war is what would potentially bring about a nuclear war, if neither side backs down that is. It's a game of nuclear chicken as of now. That's why this is getting very dangerous. There has to be someone sane in the room willing to come to terms and try to deescalate. As much as Zelensky may hate it, even he knows time is running short and he does not have the global support needed to defeat Russia without us getting directly involved doing so would require mandatory conscription in the West and good fucking luck with that in today's bitter unhappy political climate.

>>391995

US policy in Ukraine has been full of mistakes. Putin was scared of Obama, but Obama dismissed Ukraine because it was not a "core interest". Trump did the same, although Putin was NOT scared of him. This dismissal was an strategic failure, and now we have a war there that can get out of control, and China, Iran and other countries are taking notes.

Sending weapons to Ukraine is the cheapest way to deactivate Russia as a threat. Their military is horribly degraded right now, but they have a massive amount of people and (terribly old) stock of tanks/planes/artillery/etc. Weapons that were developed in the 70's and 80's in the US, have been sent to Ukraine in small quantities, and that was enough to destroy "the second most powerful army in the world". If the US sends more of these old weapons, that are taking dust in storage anyway, and would cost more to dismantle to leave room for more modern systems than to send them to Ukraine (so it's a way to save money), then Russia won't be a problem for decades, and China and Iran will think twice about attacking other countries.

But if Russia succeeds without consequences, China will attack Taiwan, because they know they'll get away with it. After all, Russia got away with it, and they were a zillion times weaker. The same goes with Iran. And most likely Israel will come next and be wiped out. The sooner this is stopped, the better. But Trump and Vance are pussies, and they think they can get peace by giving flowers to people like Putin, who wouldn't hesitate to kill them, or manipulate them if he had the chance.

If we want to be respected by the people that don't respect anything, we need to project force. But if we behave like pussies, we will be treated as pussies.

>>392015

Putin would have gone to war with Ukraine under Obama if he would have tried to expand NATO, the same as Trump. Russians don't care about US politics. They care because, to them, this is their own Cuban missile crisis directly on their border. If Trump acts like Biden has, nothing will change, Russia will still be pounding on Ukraine until they can secure the Donbass region on the side of their border and until Ukraine is forced to capitulate. Escalating this war only means more death and misery for everyone.

>>392014

You don't understand. Ukrainians will fight to death. Their survival depends on winning the war. The ones that remain have survived Bucha, Izyum and Mariupol. They know what is going to happen if Russia wins, and it's worst than the death. They won't forget and they will keep fighting.

If the Ukrainians find a way to develop a nuclear weapon, and I can assure you that they will, they will use it if Russia is winning hard and the situation becomes desperate for them. And then we'll be fucked.

Simplest solution? Let them win without developing nuclear weapons. Just send old, rusty conventional weapons to Ukraine. That's more than enough. No US soldier needed. Russia will never attack Ukraine with nuclear weapons unless you threaten their territories, because the rest of the world is watching, and if they use a nuke without a serious justification, they are fucked forever. Keeping Crimea and the Donbass is not a serious justification. If Ukraine just aims to recover its land, everything will be fine. But they need our help.

>>392017

I don't mind Ukraine fighting this war, but at the same time we have to realize it would be suicide getting ourselves into direct conflict with Russia, as it would go nuclear. I'm sure Ukraine will still receive plenty of weapons, but, I'm also assured that if they choose to continue this to the end, it is only a matter of time before their society and government ends up collapsing. Ukraine already is facing bankruptcy after all, and Ukraine is asking Western creditors to take a 60% haircut off the debt they owe. This is hurting rich investors who will never be investing in that country for the foreseeable future. Know what I mean? I think it's time to simply face the music.

>>392016

>Putin would have gone to war with Ukraine under Obama if he would have tried to expand NATO, the same as Trump.

NATO does not expand, countries bordering Russia ask to be members of NATO, because otherwise they are invaded. See Georgia and Ukraine.

>Russians don't care about US politics.

Oh, they do. They support and fund Trump. Ask yourself why.

>If Trump acts like Biden has, nothing will change, Russia will still be pounding on Ukraine until they can secure the Donbass region on the side of their border and until Ukraine is forced to capitulate.

No. Russia won't stop until Ukraine is completely destroyed or under their control. And after Ukraine, the border of Russia will have moved. Now there will be more NATO countries bordering Russia, and Russia "will feel threatened" again. It's always the same story.

Lithuanians are assuming their country won't exist in 10-20 years because Russia will have destroyed it. Russia won't stop until it is stopped. And if you let it grow, tomorrow it will be the US against a much stronger Russia. It's better to defeat it now that is weak.

>Escalating this war only means more death and misery for everyone.

The war is escalated every day by Russia. By destroying the Nova-Kharkova dam. By targeting the Zaporozhya nuclear power plant. By attacking civilians. By destroying hospitals for children. "Oh look, if Ukraine shoots back they are escalating" Really? You are a bunch of pussies.

>>392019

>You are a bunch of pussies.

The people who wish for expanding war, who constantly drum propaganda to continue war, but who wish for everyone else to fight their wars for them while they stay safe in the comfort of their own homes far away from those very wars are the real cowards. It's always easiest to support a war you yourself are not forced to fight, now isn't it?

I'll say it again. People like you, and the neo-con establishment, should be the ones grabbing your guns, putting on a uniform, and fighting the very wars you wish so badly to win. Go for it. Nothing stopping you.

>>392022

>>392022

Why grab my gun and fight when I can send it to Ukraine, and an Ukrainian will grab it and fight for me? Don't you see that they are eager to do that?

I don't understand why you are pushing your fellow americans to go and fight in Ukraine. No one hear, apart from you, said that we should send soldiers to Ukraine. Most people are talking about sending weapons to Ukraine, and pretty old ones that are rotting and we really don't need anyway.

>>392020

I talk directly to Ukrainians, not to propaganda spewers, thank you.

If Ukraine were as corrupt and incompetent as you say, they would be destroyed by now against "the 2nd army in the world". So I'm confused, is the Russian army a joke, because a bunch of corrupt guys leading a decadent army can stop them? Or is it truly the 2nd army in the world, fearsome, with nukes and blabla, and Ukraine is standing heroically? Please, make up your mind.

Do you want to know the truth about the war? Watch "20 days in Mariupol". If you have the guts, of course.

>>392018

>I don't mind Ukraine fighting this war

As if you had anything to say about that…

>I think it's time to simply face the music.

Yeah, let's allow countries to change the world order by force. The problem is, when everything explodes in your face, nobody will be there to help you.

>>392029

>>392030

To the last Ukrainian I guess. Honestly I don't think that is fair to the Ukrainian people. They should be able to vote for themselves and have a say…. oh wait, that's right…. they're not allowed to vote anymore because of war time martial law and worse they're forced into conscription with no choice!

Whatever, just let it be known that won't be allowed to happen here even if our government escalates this into a direct war, not without enormous armed rebellion.

>>392030

>nobody will be there to help you

Who is cracking down on the rampant crime waves in America? Who is trying to solve the rampant homeless pandemic in America? Who is securing America's borders from millions of third world illegal aliens flooding into our country? Who is trying to assist and prevent American Veterans from committing suicide in record droves? Who is speaking out for the Americans who are censored and wrongly demonized every day by their own federal government and corporate tech industry?

Excuse me but

>nobody will be there to help you

YAH, WE ALREADY SEE THAT.

>>392031

They have decided for themselves, and they have decided to fight. They know what awaits them if they don't fight: torture and mass graves. They know because it has already happened. Russian war crimes are widely documented. So no, there won't be any rebellion.

Ukraine is so determined to win that they will do it, whether the US supports them or not. The point is whether we will be in the right or the wrong side of history.

>>392032

That has nothing to do with Ukraine. Do you really think we can't send weapons to Ukraine and, at the same time, tackle all these issues you have mentioned? Are you so limited?

>>392036

>at the same time, tackle all these issues you have mentioned? Are you so limited?

Limited? Do I need to inform you NOTHING has been done to fix anything in America for the last 3 and a half years under Biden and his neo-con regime? Borders wide open with millions of third world'ers pouring in. Economy in the gutter, price inflation skyrocketing. A massive government debt insolvency crisis. Record rates of poverty. Record drug overdose deaths. Cities rampant with crime with businesses and residents fleeing to safer (mostly conservative-run) areas. Veterans who remain homeless and sick. Censorship legalized and weaponized by the government today. …All while the neo-cons focus on war, war, war and more war because that is all that is on their minds 24/7. The government does not give a flying shit about America, they can't even secure a former president from being shot, but they sure can focus on other countries and fund more war.

>>392035

Ukraine is now a dictatorship, they don't even have elections anymore. They are being FORCED into conscription with men being dragged off the streets, and many had to flee or hide away with their families or girlfriends. I can't say that's much of a "choice" but whatever. If it makes you feel better, sure they'll kill more Russians, and Russians will keep on killing more of them as long as there is no peace settlement.

>>392030

Death to all jews