No.52320
What kind of idiot actually wants robots to pamper him because automation made jobs obsolete? Aren't these people just diaperfags without the diapers?
Let's ignore the obvious question of why the state would keep these useless fags around for now.
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No.52321
>the obvious question of why the state would keep these useless fags around for now
They drive demand for products, food, etc.
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No.52322
>>52321
But isn't that just a waste of state resources? They claim their income/welfare tokens/GBPs directly from the government and give it to corporations for material pleasure. Unless this economy is some kind of perpetual motion machine, the state loses resources every time it gives each pampered, jobless bugman his GBP and reclaims a little in taxes.
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No.52328
>>52322
It needs people under its control because if it just leaves them be while it has its stuff with automation they might create their society, rebel, conquer them or just outcompete and make them obsolete. You'll keep control the best way by playing along democracy today and it requires passive and saturated population for the most part.
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No.52330
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No.52331
>>52328
Also, there is still need for maintenance today and it's going to be that way for a while. When it is no more they are better off just removing the unnecessary population completely because they're self-sustainable and do not need maintainers, engineers or anyone else to rely onto independently thinking.
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No.52334
>>52331
>just removing the unnecessary population completely
Absolutely retarded. What is necessary population? Since human existance ab initio people incapable of economic output have existed, and all people have eventually become incapable of economic output. This is clearly not the only measure of value a person can provide.
Its a testament to how isolated from each other we have become, and how economy centric we have become. Since when did the meaning of life become work output? Surely in a post scarcity society humans COULD take care of each other.
Value output is increasingly prymidial and single individuals, or small teams can create industry, and produce millions in value. What happens when virtually 100% of value is produced by a super elite of hundreds of people out of billions? Euler was responsible for something like 1/3 of all mathematical human output over his lifespan. Killing people not necessary for future Euler to survive would be genocide on a scale never seen before, nor would it bring much in the way of benefit.
Ending billions of lives makes human civilization less resistant to catastrophe, less diverse, and if nothing else, ends rolls of the dice that each person or their progeny might produce something of value. What happens if you kill Eulers parents because they don't output.
Also, value is strange. Who would guess how valueable memes could be?
The average person is a useless idiot today. But the collective value is greater than the sum of its parts. And the final measure of the worth of a human life isn't what job they are qualified to take today.
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No.52335
>>52322
>They claim their income/welfare tokens/GBPs directly from the government and give it to corporations for material pleasure.
aka life.
>Unless this economy is some kind of perpetual motion machine, the state loses resources every time it gives each pampered, jobless bugman his GBP and reclaims a little in taxes.
>the state loses resources every time it gives each pampered driver a new road to drive on, and reclaims little in gasoline tax.
>the state loses resources every time it gives pampered citizen national defense.
State isn't a corperation, its not supposed to profit. Its supposed to steal what it needs ("taxes") and give to us that to fund services.
>>52328
>It needs people under its control
Probably explains the vast majority of state behavior. Maintaining a standing army and then paying it is just welfare for a different group of people.
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No.52337
>>52335
>aka life
>State isn't a corperation, its not supposed to profit
False, everything the state "gives" us (including your examples) is done with the expectation that through its services we or our loved ones will contribute back to society and the economy in some way. In an automated, post-work era or a welfare state this will no longer be true for the vast majority of people and the state will have little reason to keep its population alive, a dangerous situation in a culture at risk of moral decay.
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No.52338
>>52337
>False, everything the state "gives" us (including your examples) is done with the expectation that through its services we or our loved ones will contribute back to society and the economy in some way.
Its intresting to speculate on what the state is 'trying to do', but far from clear. It could be trying to perpetuate its existence any power monopoly at any cost. And you can understand phenomena like wars of aggression through this lens.
How does your theory that the state is trying to create implicitly making a contract with us that we will provide net economic value explain things like the Iraq war? Your theory seems to be less about what kind of services the state will provide, and more about how the state will provide them to namely, people who create value, (or strangely who's "loved ones" will create value ), but what evidence is there at all this this is remotely true ? Virtually every state service is provided indiscriminately. And services are provided to dying people that have little to do with them providing value, or their loved ones providing value.
> the state will have little reason to keep its population alive
Thats all uncovered ground, so at best we can speculate. One reason a state may choose not to murder its population is political legitimacy, and the interconnections between functionaries of the state and general public: Virtually everyone is connected to everyone else, and trying to come up with an approved murder list for a sufficiently large organization would be difficult, and suggesting it even could have horrible consequences. Also people value each other outside of economic reasons. Although the state per se may not require populace to have an effective army, the functionaries of the state probably still want a large dating pool; Still want other organizations to exists (Churches, Charities, etc.) You, yourself are keying this message into a forum, that indicates some kind of desire to interact with people. Also biodiversity, cultural diversity, cultural products outside the government like books,music, movies will still be desired, and these people will have further exclusions they require on the do not murder list.
Also, you have to ask what incentive structure exists for murder in the first place. In some kind of post-scarcity society, why kill anyone ? There is enough food, etc. Killing them will not drastically alter the quality of your life. Why do it at all ?
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No.52339
>>52338
>He doesn't see how assisting the elderly could help their friends and family provide value to society/the economy, yet he rambles about why the state in an automated, post-work world wouldn't kill everyone off
Every argument you gave could be ignored or overturned by a sufficiently short-sighted and greedy politician. Men are flawed and so is the state, so any model which doesn't account for people being greedy or fucking stupid is useless at best and dangerous at worst.
You don't understand simple ideas like how maintaining roads or national defence profit the state, or how a state is made of flawed individuals and thus will make mistakes and hurt its intended goals (like the Iraq war or pampering welfare states creating less productive citizens). Congratulations anon, you are the bugman.
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No.52340
>>52339
>doesn't see how assisting the elderly could help their friends and family provide value
Totally missed the mark. Human societies have existed for 220,000 years, and governments have been providing services for about as long. Of course nothing like the scale of today. The idea that governments exist purely to ensure economic output is ahistorical. I understand how collective defense and regulatory services can assist in helping the economy run smoothly. I don't understand how nation how the Iraq war assists in helping the economy run smoothly. I don't understand how corperate welfware helps the economy run smoothly. I don't understand how cultural services like Lincoln memorial, various national parks etc. help the economy run smoothly. Its like you believe the only government service that exists is medicaid, and that it exists only so that you don't have to take care of your aging parents medical needs. Bullshit, your not a doctor, your parents would just die.
>Every argument you gave could be ignored or overturned by a sufficiently short-sighted and greedy politician.
Not even close. Above you insist that government is coherent superorganism with a single objective: Helping the economy run smoothly. Now, here, you insist, just kidding, its a collection of individuals with a variety of goals, but some how so subject to the whims of a single individual, that a single politician could murder hundreds of millions of its citizens. Which is it?
Furthermoore, for exactly the reasons I suggested , thats irrealistic: In a post scarcity society where people are not needed, there is little incentive to kill them - they arn't hogging resources because they is more than enough. Not to mention coming up with some kind of approved list will simply be impossible, because people are too interconnected. Beyond that, people like interacting with strangers, they have various sexual and platonic desires.
> so any model which doesn't account for people being greedy or fucking stupid is useless at best and dangerous at worst.
Surely people are greedy. But, in a post scarcity world killing other people does little to improve your life. And there are significant barriers to killing everyone that make it irrealistic.
A far more realistic possibility for mass genocide is the opposite. Human population is expected to stabilize at 10 Billion by 2100 due to something called the demographic transition. Its possible that with improvements in technology, perhaps the earth could sustain this many people. Its also possible that the earth cannot sustain the 7 billion we have now, we are unsustainable even with improvements in tech possible in the middle term. This could create incredible global conflict for resources that results mass genocide; Probably not of a government killing its own people, more likely a government committing genocide against a foreign nation state. This seems far more likely to me than a "greedy politician" decides to improve the quality of his life by killing millions of people to spend the gdp on himself.
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No.52342
>>52340
>The idea that governments exist purely to ensure economic output is ahistorical.
>Its like you believe the only government service that exists is medicaid, and that it exists only so that you don't have to take care of your aging parents medical needs
>Above you insist that government is coherent superorganism with a single objective: Helping the economy run smoothly.
>Now, here, you insist, just kidding, its a collection of individuals with a variety of goals, but some how so subject to the whims of a single individual, that a single politician could murder hundreds of millions of its citizens. Which is it?
None of these were stated or implied, they are strawmen and only hold you back.
>I don't understand how nation how the Iraq war assists in helping the economy run smoothly
Use your big boy brain, if you look beyond your strawmen there's a simple reason for this.
>I don't understand how corperate welfware helps the economy run smoothly.
>I don't understand how cultural services like Lincoln memorial, various national parks etc. help the economy run smoothly.
Economic health aren't the primary purpose of these, but there are obvious cultural and economic benefits. Use your noggin.
>post scarcity
Offtopic, this thread is about automation making most work obsolete. We won't have anything resembling infinite resources until space mining and colonisation are a thing, and even then someone will inevitably ask why the state is carrying all this dead weight around. All your answers boil down to muh diversity and muh pleasure, most of which the elite and still useful classes could provide themselves without the useless masses.
>but killing lots of people is impractical
Not in your offtopic post-scarcity world, assuming the right people/AIs set their mind to it.
In the meantime, thank you for demonstrating the thread's topic.
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No.52343
tl;dr
The thread asks:
>What kind of idiot actually wants robots to pamper him because automation made jobs obsolete?
The answer is this anon: >>52340 , who doesn't realise the government expects some return (economic or otherwise, often indirect) for its services and whose only pursuit in life is shallow consumer pleasure. This is the bugman who will clutter the apartments and streets of tomorrow, stringing together big words to defend his shallow lifestyle and wisdom.
How the fuck is such an un-/cyber/ anon still here?
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No.52344
>>52343
did this whole place just get taken over by poltards or what?
obviously there is more to life than economic output, and government services like parks obviously reflect that.
You ignore that because you have a weird fantasy where you some how benefit from mass genocide, but trust me, your as useless as everyone else, if not more so.
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No.52346
>>52344
Looks like the future bugman is also a poor reader.
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No.52349
>>52343
So how do we sup up all this? The arguments seem a bit out of place and not very understandable.
What are actual points that have been argued for in these discussions?
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No.52355
respect the robot, destroy all organics
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No.54467
>if you're not slaving away for your master you must be sitting around vegetating
wagie ragie
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No.54917
>>52320
I don't care about being pampered by robots, i simply want hungry unemployed proletarian masses to start a civil war.
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No.54923
Just because OP is a primitive fun-policing narcissist doesn’t mean they should project buggishness onto others.
Does anyone know if it’s possible to create a bosonic silhouette?
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No.54989
>>54923
>implying fun police narcissists don't make up half the shazbots posting here.
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No.55371
>>52320
>why would the state keep these useless fags around?
Why do you think the media is pushing assisted suicide, anon?
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No.55534
>>52320
Its a coping mechanism like thinking that this time communist will work despite the around 50 times it failed in the past killing more people than all wars and natural disasters of the 20th century combined.
When robots make workers obsolete they will also make soldiers obsolete, you will have robot workers and their owners being protected by 100% loyal robot soldiers which they also own thus making rebellion impossible.
>>52321
Companies are already moving to the upper classes because the poor have no brouzouf and the middle class is almost extinct, theres a reason why the most valuable company in the world is apple who makes expensive shit for the 1% and any idiot who wants to get a loan to buy a fucking phone.
>>52328
>if it just leaves them be while it has its stuff with automation they might create their society, rebel, conquer them
Yeah, how? with what capital? with what robots to counter the 1%'s robots and their robotic armies?
Nigga this automation thing is a complete paradigm change, its pointless for you to rebel because you will be obsolete and therefore useless and also harmless to the 1%.
>>52334
>Since when did the meaning of life become work output?
Seriously bruh? like for the last 12950 years? even just recently like less than 100 years ago the only ones who could really stick around and do nothing were hobos and the ultra-rich, everybody else had to work, most of the population just to be able to eat enough to not die let alone get as morbidly fat as they do now.
If anything we're seeing the end of the good times and a return to the "normal", which is no work=no food.
>What happens when virtually 100% of value is produced by a super elite of hundreds of people out of billions?
What happens? whats already happening now more or less.
>Killing people not necessary for future Euler to survive would be genocide on a scale never seen before
They wont kill anybody, just let you to die from obsolescence
>Surely in a post scarcity society humans COULD take care of each other.
Dude we could already be doing that now, but we dont. A post scarcity (which is only relative since we dont have infinite resources or energy) society will most likely put their extra capital on space expansion and FTL research and tell the hungry masses to go fuck themselves or get shot by their military bots.
Keep in mind I agree with some of your points, I'm just a realist and don't expect nothing good to come from the upcoming automation wave.
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