No.49736 [View All]
https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2018/03/23/corporations-and-the-culture-wars/
Corporations are increasingly becoming governments. They are taking policy stances and customers are transacting or not based on perspective on company values. Some corporations are even openly defying governments (Cf. Uber ) , or heavily pressuring governments to take policy position. People talk about distinct subculutures existing at SV companies (Like apple / google ). Facebook is currently talking about building and owning a town. Meanwhile, Federal Government is in chaos, lacking leaders, or even people in touch with basic reality. CA and liberal states are resisting. The federal government is going to make itself irrelevant and facebook is going to be the new government.
Is this possible?
____________________________
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No.49746
>>49745
>Facebook is floating on shit.
Job Oppertunities, Political Pressure, An Intellectual Heritidge in security expertise, development expertise, API's, a fucking town complete with stores, social capital.
>take away all my power!
What power, facebook is floating on shit.
>The major difference between this one and the first one is that people actually needed the railroads, and there were no other competitors.
I agree that there isn't yet a lot of physical manifestations of that power, but that could easily happen over night for example through facebook town.
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No.49747
>>49746
What do you imagine is going to happen if Facebook buys a town?
It'll still be beholding to state and federal law, and its income will still depend on popularity more than demand.
They have to at least convince people they're more or less benign, because people can so easily remove the service from their lives with no consequences at all!
Have you ever heard anyone tell a story about the bad things that happen when they delete Facebook? No. There are none. I fact, popular opinion has been swinging toward labeling Facebook a harmless menace for years. Now that it has done some harm, people are dropping it in droves.
Honestly, I think they'll 'survive' this, but they'll never get that growth curve back, and other, smaller, more agile companies will just slowly eat its market share over the years, as tends to happen with these companies.
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No.49750
>>49747
>What do you imagine is going to happen if Facebook buys a town?
In the short term, nothing. You are right that facebooks income will not suddenly become an diversified stream of rent, janitors, college tution, taxes, etc. In the short term facebook would be beholden to some federal laws.
>Honestly, I think they'll 'survive' this, but they'll never get that growth curve back,
This isn't even about facebook in paticular. Its intresting that large corperations are intrested in creating a town. Sillicon Valley is intresting in paticular because of its utopian ism.
In the long term, a diversified revenue stream, control over cultural zeigeist, declining relevance of federal government, strong cryptosystems, political illegtmicy of violent intervention by government, creation of company subculture and identity, and sufficient corperate size could create something like a government in my mind.
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No.49751
>>49750
>This isn't even about facebook in paticular. Its intresting that large corperations are intrested in creating a town.
Umm … this is awkward, but … you realize Disney owns 'Celebration' Florida, right?They literally govern the land the park is on, too.
You don't know your history either if you think that's new or unique. Actually, 'factory towns' were very much the norm back during the first gilded age. The government hadn't stepped in after the great depression yet, and so companies of all size were basically allowed to do whatever they wanted.
So, imagine going to work in your factory, in your factory town, for credits to spend in the factory store, on your way back to your factory housing.
That wasn't even unusual. The corporations have been fighting for that kind of power back since it was stripped from them.
While you're just learning about this stuff, check out the East India Trading Co.
It's one of the first corporations, and it grew strong enough to threaten an empire.
We're practically living in a utopia now where our 'evil' corporations are basically guilty of not keeping your secrets that you should have never trusted them with in the first place, from people they never promised not to share them with.
I'm not saying we shouldn't boycott them and put Zuck back out on the street, but let's have some fucking perspective.
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No.49756
>>49751
The control over coms, news, and larger cultural zeitgeist is unprecidented.
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No.49757
>>49756
> The control over coms, news, and larger cultural zeitgeist is unprecidented.
More control over culture than Disney?
Seriously, though, look at your history. Who do you think owned the newspapers back then? Control over the news isn't unprecedented, actually this LACK of control over the news is.
We're just waking, blinking in the sunlight, for the first time without having literally ALL our media controlled by the government. That was the norm, until very recently.
The printing press was the first Cyberpunk technology, because it allowed the people to learn to read in numbers large enough to matter. Then, suddenly, a new power rose in the newspapers, but don't think for a second that they served anyone other than the rich people who owned them.
We've had only a few glimpses of a truly free means of sharing information in the past.
We've never been under so little control over coms, news, and larger cultural zeitgeist.
I think it's hilarious, having grown up reading history, and hell, even watching the movie Network (1976 movie about TV propaganda; check it the fuck out, they won't be remaking it), my entire life that people actually thought Facebook was ever, or could even have ever been, anything else. Of course it's a propaganda machine!
The really weird thing is conversations like this, where people seem to know nothing of the history of communication, and just assume that this is something new, and all the past was innocent and free.
You're witnessing the tail end of the dark age, not the start of it. We're fighting to be free of something we've struggled against since the dawn of humanity, and you guys are waking up like screaming newborns complaining 'This is awful, it must be getting worse than it's ever been!'
No, you just woke up at the ass-end of some seriously dark shit. It's getting better, but it used to be unimaginably bad.
The real danger is that, without that history, a bunch of morons allowed themselves to be convinced that corporations could be GOOD. Somewhere along the lines they became the new Royalty.
Read your history! They need to be dragged out into the quarter and beheaded just like their 15th century predecessors!
Quit complaining it's getting worse and grab a shovel, we're almost there!
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No.49759
>>49736
Read your thread a few hours ago then just now stumbled upon this on etsy.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/598279469/crisiswear-division-mki-custom-cyberpunk?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=pants&ref=sc_gallery-1-2&plkey=f3cea27216ad27af52b108e2a202671b9c6ce532:598279469
It made me think, "I can find niche /cyber/ items on etsy. I won't be giving brouzouf to big corporations while supporting local merchants."
By the way that's not my etsy so don't accuse me of shilling my own soykaff.
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No.49760
>>49757
>Seriously, though, look at your history. Who do you think owned the newspapers back then? Control over the news isn't unprecedented, actually this LACK of control over the news is.
I was close to sold on this perspective. But, i just can't agree. For sure governments imposed control of communications, but for almost all of human history, all human culture was non-commericial and largely unwritten anyway. Strong centralized control and government involvement in the everyday life of the individual wasn't directly possible in the way it is now.
Facebook is a novel threat beacause facebook can alter what appears to be news from your friends. Facebook can create a target cultural zeitgeist unique to each individual but adjusting the bubble they sea, and this isn't facebook alone. SV giants really do have an unprecedented control of culture.
They also have significant control of job opportunities. They have distinct subcultures associated with companies, they have orthogonal technological stacks that incentive staying short term.
It doesn't seem ridiculous to me that a rank google engineer versed in Kotlin, Go, Google Charts, GTest, etc. using andriod used to an open culture, gapps might not be desirable to Microsoft (.NET , Win32 API, Outlook etc.). This becomes even more intresting if google has their own towns and universities turning out googleready talent, as google aquires additional power.
It seems kind of utopian to me to imagine liberal values of free speach, and social media have fixed everything. THere is a huge crisis of authority that has resulted, but corperate power seems uneffected.
Honestly, in our post-truth world, whats more real that corperate power?
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No.49761
>>49759
> I won't be giving brouzouf to big corporations while supporting local merchants."
I wonder alot about this. Is "voting with your money" really voting or not.
I am not even sure I am against google taking over the world. I mean , I am not intrested in being spied upon, but its not like the existing federal government has done a good job with that. It seems to me that SV giants are actually more competant than the government at plenty of things - although governance I am not sure about.
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No.49762
>>49760
>I was close to sold on this perspective. But, i just can't agree. For sure governments imposed control of communications, but for almost all of human history, all human culture was non-commericial and largely unwritten anyway. Strong centralized control and government involvement in the everyday life of the individual wasn't directly possible in the way it is now.
Your argument seems to be 'If I were living on a hilside and never met the kind, I was functionally more free …
While that may have been true in some cases, again, look at your history. We have an amendment to the constitution that allows us to A. talk against the government B. arm ourselves against the government C. Refuse to house soldiers D. Have a trial etc, etc, etc …
They didn't make those amendments for their amusement. Those were all things that happened on a regular basis in European governments of the time.
You can walk away from Google or Facebook whenever you want to. Their only power is brouzouf and influence, and that's plenty, and it's insidious and we need to take it seriously … but there power is a far cry from the totalitarianism governments found throughout history.
>Honestly, in our post-truth world, whats more real that corperate power?
In America, we're finding the Judicial branch to me amazingly effective, as a well reasoned power for the people. Recent history shows the Judicial branch at many levels standing up to the president and other crooked politicians when they try to overstep the bounds. I think there have been some terrible decisions too, obviously, but look at what happened in PA over Gerrymandering, what's been happening with the Presidents illegal Executive Orders, etc …
I would rate that power above most corporations, still, but probably the corps come in at a close second.
I think we may see a pendulum swing back in the opposite direction, though, after November. I'm actually a little concerned with a complete liberal takeover.
Liberal ideals sound great, until they're up your ass making sure you don't say shazbot in your own home, to your own same sex partner, because the FBI listening in might be offended.
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No.49763
>>49761
This is the dumbest fucking argument I've ever heard. How about smaller government that doesn't touch, or fuck up, quite so much, and businesses that don't have any political power at all, so they can't fuck the people?
When did you lose your spine and forget we don't need someone bending us over a table pretending to 'take care of us'?
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No.49767
>>49762
>Your argument seems to be 'If I were living on a hilside and never met the kind, I was functionally more free …
I was not trying to make specific claims about the past. I do think that on the whole people are more free now than ever.
I am making wild speculation about the future. Certainly the technology to enslave and monitor exists more now than then.
Demise of the nation-state and rise of the corperation is a frequent theme in cyberpunk literature - which doesn't nessasirly reflect reality.
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No.49768
>>49763
I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was saying metaforically, I wasn't sure that private towns owned by google with people living voluntarily in might not be bad.
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No.49769
>>49767
>Certainly the technology to enslave and monitor exists more now than then.
I see now what you're saying, not so much that things are worse, or anything, just that the technological potential for something way worse exists?
In that case, I have to agree. When I first read 1984, I laughed at the idea that we'd all have TVs that could magically have CCTV systems going to some huge building where everyone was being watched.
Now, with smart TVs, tablets, phones and AI programs to do the watching, we're nearly there except that no one is legally forced to participate (yet).
What worries me isn't that we'll be forced to participate so much as it'll be like China, where you have a 'social credit' system and you just look bad if you don't.
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No.49770
>>49768
I don't think you understood what you were saying.
What you mean is you were saying *hypothetically* that private towns owned by google, with people living voluntarily in them, might not be bad.
I didn't think you were speaking literally, however we've already seen what 'company towns', and even the towns in Florida owned by Disney look like, and they aren't good.
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No.49778
>>49770
>What you mean is you were saying *hypothetically* that private towns owned by google, with people living voluntarily in them, might not be bad.
Corperate power grab probably looks alot like government from a political legitimacy perspective - Facebook will create a town with incentives to live there perhaps low rent? Then beginging adding amentities perhaps like a free code bootcamp / university that turns out talent suited to facebooks needs, teaches technologies in facebooks stack. Why this might not be bad is that the incentives might be worth while. Governments try to offer similiar incentives to buy political legitimacy through community colleges, social security etc. Why SV might be preferable is there institutional competance and function compared to the increasing disfunction of the federal government and its incompetance. Why this might be bad is obvious - Nation States have a rich instutional heritidge that defines the rights and protections of the individual in way that seems to be important, and corperations are ideological not subject to maximizing or optimizing for the abstract individual, but for the company
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No.50138
>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16873663
Facebook Building their own hardware now.
As stack for each corperation becomes more vertical or orthognalize an engineer for Apple becomes less useful for Facebook. Companies will compete for mindshare with open stacks to educate talent without paying for it ("I am an expert of Facebook Processer Assembly and Facebook OS Internals because its free only, and there is a ton of high quality free documentation, but my only job offer is facebook").
Will we get distinct cultures?
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No.50183
>>50138
How is this different from learning Intel vs. ARM architecture, do you imagine?
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No.50190
>>49736
Are you completely retarded? The US federal government employs the most powerful military on the planet. If they wanted to they could erase facebook from human history tomorrow.
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No.50213
>>49747
>easily remove the service from their lives with no consequences at all!
That's not really true. FB is literally everywhere you tread on the Internet. Even if you decide to avoid Facebook, you'll have to go to great lengths to do so… consider leaving the Internet is probably what it takes.
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No.50222
>>50190
but they wont. It would be politically illegitimate in anycase, and its unclear the orders would be followed anyway. And it ignores facebooks "softpower" anyway.
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No.50223
>>50213
cat /etc/hosts
0.0.0.0 facebook.com, …
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No.50227
>>49737
>We don't really need Facebook for anything.
Tell that to normies
>There are 100 services, Google included, just waiting for a chance to take Facebook down.
And yet google had like 3 products build to take on fb and it went nowhere, gplus is such a failure that they are trying to turn youtube into a social network now and fucking it up in the process
>I've been around long enough to remember when EVERYONE was on Compuserve, then EVERYONE was on AOL, then EVERYONE had a MySpace, then EVERYONE had a Gmail account, then EVERYONE had Facebook …
Yeah I know but I think we're reaching the point when the market sort of coalesces and the cost of going against a big corp like fb are too high. Half the companies you mention were killed from inside by ineptitude, fb its pretty solid from the tech side so far and they have avoided the "lets ban everyone we dont like" bullshit from google since they know leftards aren't their only audience
I was hoping this recent scandal would kill them but normies have the attention span of a retarded goldfish so of course they already forgot and some are flocking back
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No.54784
>>49736
Transnational corporations have had more power than governments for years now. Coca Cola basically owns the parts of mexico that cartels and the corrupt government do not. One company even tried to buy Bolivias water supply.
Covertly, companies can manipulate policy by charging for certain things (like the bannign gun sales with their credit cards) or "taking a stand" on social issues. When governments become too reliant on companies to do the governing, they loose any power the people gave them. People do not realize that companies are legally the same as people, and one persons decision affects all of the customers, fedex does not have to obey mail searching laws becasue they are a private company and not the government, the same goes for DNA companies and advertising companies, heck even retail stores can sell all the buyer data they want. Facebook got in trouble for selling peoples medical data that it used a legal loophole to gather.
>>49737
>We don't need Facebook for ANYTHING.
last year facebook bought an identity authentication service to "verify which accounts are actually legitimate" which is another way of saying they are getting into the identity verification market. Imagine going to the bank or the drivers license building and they verify your identity with facebook
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No.54823
>>54784
>Imagine going to the bank or the drivers license building and they verify your identity with facebook
How long until you're forced by law to have social media?
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No.54833
>>54823
As if it were something that would be issued to each and every person at the time of birth. Here is your SSN and your SocialCircle™
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No.54834
>>54784
>One company even tried to buy Bolivias water supply.
And what happened to the leader of that company? The wound up being found dead in the desert with a bellyful of oil to teach them the real value of water.
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No.54835
>>54834
Still got the shovel
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No.54836
>>54833
remember this?
>The NHS has given the medical records of 1.6 million patients to Google, it has been revealed.
>Google says it intends to use the data as part of its group DeepMind to develop a health app which can help recognise kidney injury. However, campaigners have expressed concerns that the data-share is a breach of trust and not in patients’ interest.
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No.54837
>>54823
https://www.commonplaces.com/blog/what-is-a-verified-social-media-account-and-why-does-it-matter/
I know its from RT, but
https://www.rt.com/news/414397-wechat-china-digital-ld/
>China’s largest social media network, WeChat, is set to become an official electronic personal identification system in the country, with a WeChat ID pilot program launched in Guangzhou’s Nansha District.
>It will provide access to online and offline government services and other things that require authentication such as hotel registration and ticketing. The move is aimed at preventing online identity theft, thanks to facial recognition technology used to verify applicants before providing them with online IDs.
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No.54838
>>54836
That's the best use of it though, as far as i know those AI are way more accurate than human doctors, i'm worried more about other uses
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No.54891
>>54837
I think china is different than western liberal democracy, because violence is essentially politically illegitimate. And so, it seems likely that Facebook will always be a separate entity to the US Government.
In china, state takeover of anything is legitimate, and this is probably the government acting through wechat rather than wechat grabbing power to rival the government.
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No.54910
>>54891
>In china, state takeover of anything is legitimate, and this is probably the government acting through wechat rather than wechat grabbing power to rival the government.
you are looking at it all wrong. It legitimizes the public view that
"since companies can do no evil and muh oppressive gubmint is out to get me, I would much rather have a friendly facebook be my ID authentication instead of my passport, especially since facebook is convenient on my phone while I have to go through many hoops to get a passport and give the gubmint my information"
People already trust companies more than the government, but the government at least has some semblance of adherence to law and is still bound by its own rules to which people hold them accountable, while companies just outsource or do it somewhere where people "consent" to their tactics or they use legal loopholes. zucc and friends just act smug and laugh at how naive people are to trust them when they abuse the public.
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No.55019
In acting as "public spaces" with user generate content, corporations have increasingly sought to impose policy without government regulation. They are probably doing this to prevent government regulation, but I am sure there is at least a single case of corporations imposing policy on user generated content for their own interests.
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No.55039
>>54910
No, it's you who is looking at it wrong, you dumb communist.
>since companies can do no evil
Except chink companies are as bad as anything else made by chinks and it's much more popular to bite the hand that feeds you nowadays with the marxist trash shoved in the education.
>the government at least has some semblance of adherence to law and is still bound by its own rules
Kek
>while companies just outsource
>outsourcing is law evasion
Lel, this is the mind of a leftist, everyone.
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No.55041
>>55039
>>the government at least has some semblance of adherence to law and is still bound by its own rules
>Kek
Except this is true. Most of the time the government at least pretends to follow the law, and is definitely subject to more oversight than a private company. We are not going to vote on McDonalds decisions.
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No.55091
>>55041
>Most of the time the government at least pretends to follow the law
Not really any more than companies that the whole leftist bitching was about. Government has authority over companies but nobody has authority over government, aside from things like UN and other bigger governments, which is not the subject of discussion.
>is definitely subject to more oversight than a private company
Modern academia, everyone. Go fight trashcans.
>We are not going to vote on McDonalds decisions.
You're not voting on your government decisions either. You just pretend you do, and even if you did, the next time you try to do anything, they'll import nigger votes that your other countrymen will feed. I'd say you but you're incapable of productive work and will never be any better.
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No.55097
>>55091
There are so many things wrong with this its crazy.
>Not really any more than companies that the whole leftist bitching was about
Replacing Government with companies is a hard sell. I might be open to it in some kind of ancapistan, but in the current clime, deciding prisons will be run by private contractors etc, is a recipe for human rights disaster - exactly because the federal government has been more willing to follow the law than private companies. They have different incentives.
>nobody has authority over government,
That is supposed to be "the people" in a democracy. The government is in fact limited by the political will of the people in the US, but not completely bound. (Cf. Gay Marriage vs. Weed). There is some amount of oversight, and some amount of transparency - neither of which companies have.
>aside from things like UN and other bigger governments, which is not the subject of discussion.
The UN has no authority over any sovereign government at all. All its resolutions are non-binding, or treaties, both of which various sovereign countries, including the smaller ones, float openly. The US has consistantly ignored the UN's wishes (cf. War in Iraq , Human Rights vs. Torture ) etc.
>Modern academia, everyone. Go fight trashcans.
Its absolutely retarded to insist that you have the same level of oversight and there is the same level transparency in public body like the government, and a private body. You can file FOIA requests, you can make calls and write letters to people powerful positions, internal documents are published. Go ask McDonalds to publish its anti-union videos, and produce any documentation they have about there union or anti-union activities - you will hit a hard wall.
>You're not voting on your government decisions either.
You can via referendum in many states.
>and even if you did, the next time you try to do anything, they'll import nigger votes that your other countrymen will feed. I'd say you but you're incapable of productive work and will never be any better.
<Black People are niggers and inferior
<Wahhh Wahhhhh Black people don't vote republican
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No.55101
>>55097
>deciding prisons will be run by private contractors etc
Reminder that all these companies have only one customer.
>human rights disaster
Human rights are a spook
>exactly because the federal government has been more willing to follow the law than private companies
Yeah, repealing constitution step by step, so much of a following the rules only they themselves have power to enforce.
>That is supposed to be "the people" in a democracy
Kek. How much of a worthless biomass one has to be to believe this shit.
>There is some amount of oversight, and some amount of transparency - neither of which companies have.
Nor they should, they are private, commieshit.
>The UN has no authority over any sovereign government at all
Yeah, Yugoslavia approves.
>Its absolutely retarded to insist that you have the same level of oversight and there is the same level transparency in public body like the government, and a private body
It's absolutely retarded to insert your worthless self into what is the job, creation and life of people that have no connection to you. You should be shot just for this disgusting speech.
>You can file FOIA requests, you can make calls and write letters to people powerful positions, internal documents are publishe
Yeah, works so well. it's not like
>anti-union
As if it ever was a bad thing.
>you will hit a hard wall
Actually, they are more likely to do that that FED not making you suicide over 9/11.
>You can via referendum in many states.
Yeah, civil war really showed that.
<Black People are niggers and inferior
No, you're just as much subhuman as them, democuck.
How can such a disgusting slob of normalfag scum find its way here? Fuck off to whatever shithole you crawled from, degenerate disgrace, and kill yourself.
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No.55102
>>55101
>Yeah, works so well. it's not like "people powerful positions" are the ones who were behind all the shit in the first place*
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No.55103
>>55101
you refuted absolutely nothing i said. Your whole argument amounts to "the US government is not perfect therefore, private companies are better" while dismissing the wrong doing of private companies as the fault of the federal government >only one customer, or to your liking >as if it were a bad thing. Plenty of your argument is just non-sequeiters
>Actually, they are more likely to do that that FED not making you suicide over 9/11.
<McDonalds more likely to disclose all anti-union activity than federal government doing unspecified wierd thing involing 9-11 ?
If you mean, go through unnecessary wars ("democide") than factually the opposite outcome occured.
Pointing out flaws in the US government is not rational for replacing the government with private companies.
Also, cyberpunk , and most punk at large, is a criticism of corporate capitalism. If you think gibson was a right wing nationalist who believed blacks were inferior your off your meds. No amount of shit posting is ever going to convince anyone that cyberpunk is actually radical right wing nationalist. Just stop trying to co-opt.
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No.55114
>>55103
>you refuted absolutely nothing i said
Not an argument, kiddo.
>while dismissing the wrong doing of private companies as the fault of the federal government
That's factually true.
> Plenty of your argument is just non-sequeiters
An non argument response for a the brainless leftist blabbery. And it's "non sequitur", you uneducated nigger.
>If you mean, go through unnecessary wars
I mean exactly what i wrote, you weaseling scum.
>Pointing out flaws in the US government is not rational for replacing the government with private companies.
<Proving superiority of A over is is not a rational reason to replace B with A.
That's why you'll never be anything but useful idiots, a trash that is only a disguise.
>and most punk at large
Fuck off and take your worthless poseur movement with you, nigger.
>is a criticism of corporate capitalism
How dumb one has to be to believe that?
>right wing nationalist
Nice strawman, communist scum.
>Just stop trying to co-opt.
Says leftist degenerate.
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No.55117
>>55114
very epic of you to break arguments into contextless phrases so your mind is able to digest them properly
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No.55121
>>55117
>no refutation on any point
Good job eating shit, fag
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No.55124
>>55114
>And it's "non sequitur"
The Autistic Checkmate
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No.55125
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No.55262
>>55124
He actually won me over with this
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No.55263
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No.55264
>>49736
Interestingly Enough, some people actually advocate remaking the US Government as a corporation.
>Wikipedia Dark Enlightenment Article
>Neoreactionary Michael Perilloux proposes that President Donald Trump seize more power by canceling the United States Constitution, declaring martial law and replacing the government with The Trump Organization.[9] Similarly, Google engineer Justine Tunney circulated a petition to appoint Google chairman Eric Schmidt as CEO of America.[1]
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No.55280
>>55264
Interestingly enough, corporations have little to do with autocratic form of governing neoreactionaries advocate, despite the previous poster's uneducated remark.
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