/christianity/ - Christian Theology & Philosophy

>>11038

>And why aren't "sheol"/"hades" just the Hebrew/Greek equivalents of the English "Hell?"

I don't know, ask the translators or someone who knows about the history of translation. My understanding is that it's just poor/unfortunate translation.

>And nothing about your second paragraph contradicts what I said.

It was never meant to point out a contradiction..you asked for information on the distinction between sheol/hades and gehenna and I provided it for you?

>Why are trying to be some pseudo-intelle-

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>>11036

>If somebody is in Abraham's bosom, they are in HEAVEN hugging him!

We're reaching levels of eisegesis that shouldn't even be possible

>I mean, are you insinuating Abraham is somewhere other than Heaven?

Now he's in heaven, but he wasn't before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

>>11044

Why wasn't he? Are you saying Jesus WASN'T the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World?

Where are you getting this from?

>>11045

First of all stop being so hysterical if you want me to speak to you. Deep breaths brother, deep breaths.

>>11047

>If you insist on reading the Bible as a little child, you are hysterical

>Implying it's bad to have zeal for the Lord

Bosom, definition:

>the human chest and especially the front part of the chest

So, why does "Abraham's Bosom" HAVE to be some special distinct form of afterlife?

>>11044

You can't accuse someone of eisegesis without explaining why in particular and giving the alternative correct reading

>Now he's in heaven, but he wasn't before the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Nope, and the thief on the cross is a proof. Heaven was accessible before the resurrection.

>>11051

>You can't accuse someone of eisegesis without explaining why in particular and giving the alternative correct reading

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16%3A19-31&version=KJV

Speaks for itself.

>>11054

Hell is eternal punishment for sinners.

Since God is omnipotent and not a sinner (except during the atonement), he can be present in Hell is he desires. Hell is not just some metaphysical place (Hell is like… separation from God maaaaan), but is the literal punishment God gives to sinners for an eternal afterlife.

God does not dwell in hell, but in heaven, but he is omnipresent.

>>11057

>hell is not eternal seperation from God

2 Thessalonians 1:9

<They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Don't get me wrong, hell is also a place of eternal suffering and torment, but seperation from God is a chief component of that, as God is the fountain of all goodness, and nothing good exists without him.

>>11066

Yes, THEY are away from the presence of the Lord.

That does not mean God is not omnipresent.

It's on their end as part of their punishment.

>>11069

Do you understand any degree of logic? Is your idea of omnipresence the idea that Gid can do the illogical? How can A be in location B, and C be in location B, with A being in the presence of C, while C isn't in the prescence of A? It makes no sense, and has no basis in reality.

Besides, Jesus couldn't have had any sin on him at the time of the atonement

1 Peter 2:22

>Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in his mouth

Aka, no guilt was found in him. Meaning he couldnt have absorbed our sins, since he had no guilt.

1 John 3:5

>And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins, and in him there is no sin 

>>11075

God can do anything. You can't bind God to your own suppositions because he IS the author of logic.

Do you remember how sacrifices work? The Passover? The lamb without blemish would stand in for Israel's sins.

>>11076

His death stood for ancestral sin only. We are saved by our faith in Jesus christ our savior, and our actions as christians.

We have been saved through holy baptism

We are being saved by the sacramental life of the church

We will be saved by the mercy of God our father at the Final Judgement

Faith without works is dead, and sola fide requires either nestorianism, arianism, or in your case: illogical action by God

>>11080

You are a thing formed. God is not capable of "illogical" action.

Before there was "logic" there was God.

Yes, an omnipotent, omnipresent being is inherently "illogical." And you, naturally, want to lean on your own understanding.

A thing formed can't fully comprehend its former. But, we can understand God good enough.

>>11082

What is inherently illogical about an omnipresent omnipotent omnignostic God?

>>11084

>Is your idea of omnipresence the idea that Gid can do the illogical? How can A be in location B, and C be in location B, with A being in the presence of C, while C isn't in the prescence of A? It makes no sense, and has no basis in reality.

You describe here that you believe omnipresence is illogical.

Omnipresent:

>present everywhere at the same time: the omnipresent God.

>>11085

No, i was saying that the idea that God is in hell when hell is seperation from God is illogical. God is not omnipresent, he is mostly present everywhere

>>11089

>God is not omnipresent

hmmmm

Well, the Son was certainly separated from the Father during the atonement

>My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

>>11090

? That would break the trinity.

>>11091

Why?

God can do anything.

Why did the Father forsake Jesus then? Why was there thick darkness on the Earth?

It's right there in the Bible.

>>11090

Besides,

>Eli, Eli, lema sabachthami!

He is praying Psalm 21 (22). When you take this first verse on it's own, it can be misinterpreted as a cry of despair. Since he took on our nature, Jesus experiences our alienation from God in our humanity, completely identifying with our condition, yet he does not despair, for in his divinity he is never forsaken by the Father.

>>11092

The thick darkness was a just a fulfillment of a prophecy of Amos 8:9.

>>11093

Or, or, get this; it could be that when the Bible says Jesus became sin, and that he tasted death for every man, that he descended into the belly of the Earth; it could be that the Bible actually meant all this.

>>11095

But Jesus wasn't forsaken by God. He willfully died, when he offered up his body on the cross. He was just empathizing with us through his humanity, and praying

>>11097

Let me ask you, have you read the Gospels as a little child? Read them, and block everything out that is not from the Bible. You will not come to the conclusion, that when Jesus is in agony on the cross, and he yells

>My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me (In Aramaic, his native language, of course, since he's yelling out in desperation)

And the whole Earth is covered in darkness; you will not come to the conclusion that Jesus is only empathizing with us.

I Implore you, my friend, re-read the Bible, with an open mind, not clouded by any outside forces.

>>11098

HE IS QUOTING PSALM 21 (22). READ PSALM 21 (22) AND YOU WILL KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT

>>11099

I know, everyone knows it.

>>11100

How could Christ Jesus' divinity ever be forsaken by the Father? That would break the trinity

>>11102

Jesus was always divine. As God, he took the punishment every man deserves, thus saving them, if they make the freewill decision to put their total faith on him.

Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ, writes that

>We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast

Jesus did it all. He was/is fully God and fully man.

>>11104

Yes, we are saved by faith, not works. But as Jane's writes, "we are saved by works and not faith only", and "for faith without works is dead.". If we were justified only by faith, we would have no need to for baptism, or for communion, or for confession. Things Christian's all do and scripture says is needed

>>11106

your use of justification and salvation as synonymous in each of these contexts makes your view contradictory, James is contradicting Ephesians. The way to reconcile the two is to see that the justification James is referring to is external proof of the salvation having occurred.

Baptism, communion, and confession are all still instructions that Christians must practice even when they aren't necessary for salvation, like the command to "love your neighbor" is an instruction that is non-salvific even to sacramentalists.

>>11112

So, that's what you would do if you were in that position? Wow, no wonder you're not saved.

>>11113

No i wouldnt, I'm just pointing out the irrationality of your system. We as Christian's are meant to slowly but surely become as sinless as we can, and through the mercy of God our father in heaven, hope that he will not damn us

>>11112

Yes, a former murderer, rapist, or blasphemer can be saved by faith like the Bible says.

You're not giving a counter argument by the way

>>11115

>Try our best and hope he doesn't damn us

Sure sounds like some good news to me.

>>11115

>system

There is no "system", blood of Christ is not a "system" and God's judgement is not a "system". You can try working your way into heaven all you want, God himself has told you all your works are as filthy rags to him.

>We as Christian's

sure doesn't sound like your works-based salvation is anywhere near Christianity, seems more like a rejection of Christ's work on the cross in place of your own idiocy. Good luck with that.

>>11115

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you've sinned (you have), you can't merit salvation. God grants mercy or doesn't on the sole criteria of faith in Christ.

>>11120

>>11116

>>11118

>for we are justified by works and not faith only

>for faith without works is dead

>I have come not to end the law, but to fulfill it

>Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

>But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

The bible views the faithless and those who unrepentantly sin as sinners.

Why dont we read what Jesus himself has to say about the final judgement?

Matthew 25:31-46

>31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Your pastors are lying to you.

>>11122

How does this disprove sola fide?

>>11124

It doesn't.

Matthew 19:25-26

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

>>11125

Amen and hallelujah

>>11125

From God's mercy

>>11128

God's mercy is that all you have to do is put your full trust in him to be saved.

>>11131

Then why does Jesus and paul and james always talk about avoiding sin? If it doesnt even matter, why bother.

>>11141

If you are indeed so begrudging in obeying God that you would sin unrepentantly if He showed mercy, then you should ask yourself, "have I ever met Christ?"

>>11143

You do realize how scary this idea that we are saved only by faith is right? Imagine, if right before you die, your faith quivers. You second guess. God will have no mercy on you. He will not see that for your whole life since baptism you have tried and tried to be a good christian. Tried to avoid sin, and when you commited it you repented. He will not see that you prayed to him every day. He will not see that you went to his church and recieved his sacraments. He will just go "beep boop, sola fide, you're in hell now" because your faith wasnt at 100% at your time of death.

>>11147

>You do realize how scary this idea that we are saved only by faith is right?

I realize that divine truth is often very scary to the unregenerate heart.

>Imagine, if right before you die, your faith quivers. You second guess

I'm not relying on my self, I don't have to "do" anything. Christ is the ground of my hope and assurance, He props me up and justifies my name.

>He will not see that for your whole life since baptism you have tried and tried to be a good christian. Tried to avoid sin, and when you commited it you repented. He will not see that you prayed to him every day. He will not see that you went to his church and recieved his sacraments.

He will see all, and He will look at all your trying, and it will not be good enough. Because while you tried, you also failed, yet it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. You think it's good enough that tried? Does this excuse your bad behavior, does it justify your sin? Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them. Are you a righteous man? Have you actually kept the law? Do you pretend to be holy as God is holy? He will see that you have done those things, and He will also see that you withheld when you should have given, you boasted when you should have humbled yourself, you indulged in the flesh when you should have remained pure, you lied when you should have spoken truth, you kept silent when you should have prayed. Every idle word shall be held against you. Have you not missed the mark?

Now I am not more righteous than you, I am probably much worse. I am a chief of sinners, I commit abominations every day. God's standard is absolute perfection, because He is absolutely perfect, and He expects it of every one. Am I perfect? No, but Jesus Christ is, and because I trusted Him and relied on Him, I extended an empty hand while I fell, he has given this righteousness to me. Galatians 3:7-14

<Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The just shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

>>11153

God's mercy and our faith fill the gaps that our works do not fill