/christianity/ - Christian Theology & Philosophy

>>10449

>>10451

>>10451

You misunderstand my point. It isn't that the concept of hell is somehow immoral or that people shouldn't go there. The problem is that WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE. God creates us knowing we will go to hell. Then we go to hell. Very fair. Great. Loving. Merciful. MY ASS. God could make people that will know how to get to heaven but instead he CONCIOUSLY CREATES HELLBOUND PEOPLE. It is the creation of people who God himself knows have no chance to go to heaven. If I go to hell will I say I got a raw deal? No. I certianly sinned. buuuut GOD LITERALLY CREATES PEOPLE HE KNOWS WILL GO TO HELL SO YES ACTUALLY IT IS UNIMAGINABLY UNJUST

And quick note. Purgatory is a transitional state in catholicism not a 3rd place. You go to purgatory then heaven. Nobody stays there.

>>10453

>The problem is that WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE.

If that were true, then the bible wouldn't repeatedly emphasize free will so much.

>God could make people that will know how to get to heaven but instead he CONCIOUSLY CREATES HELLBOUND PEOPLE.

You have a fundamental error in the world you're proposing here. How do you know such a thing is even possible? If everyone were guaranteed to be saved, that would mean we would have NO CHOICE but to be saved, meaning no free will, and thus defeating the purpose of God creating us in the first place, because he wanted people to freely love him.

You're effectively getting mad about God not creating a universe where 2 + 2 = 5, without stopping to consider the idea that what you're asking for might be totally incoherent.

>>10452

No. Horseshit. If by definition God is literally all powerful he can create a universe where nobody ends up sinning out of free will. That is just a terrible argument. A God with infinite power and infinite universes can create one without this issue.

By the way, God has his hands in the creation of each person not the universe at large. There have been saints who could literally see souls, had direct conversations with the divine, bled from their hands and feet as if nailed, etc etc etc. So why can he not make people who have strong enough wills that they wont go to hell?

Hey speaking of which you would imagine a loving and merciful God would have forgiven us for a piece of FRICKing fruit by now

>>10455

Funny because I recall this having been a very highly debated issue not a simple "yeah it exists bc bible" for a thousand years

And in the universe you propose God has created defective people with no choice but to go to hell. The outcome of our free will is already known by God and is shaped by the characteristics and life experiences he gave us. If our free will is dictated by one entity it is not free will. The difference between the universes we perceive is a false concept

>>10456

>he can create a universe where nobody ends up sinning out of free will

And you know this how? Where's your proof? Or are you just pulling this assumption out of your butt and claiming to know more than God based on half-assed utopian speculation?

>infinite universes

Do you understand how the concept of infinity works? Infinite does not mean "everything". The natural numbers are infinite, and yet they do not contain the irrational numbers. You're basically asking for God to include the irrational numbers as a part of the natural numbers, simply because you're too hard headed to make an effort to understand what the definitions of numbers mean. What you're asking for is by definition, incompatible with free will.

>>10456

>>10453

>>10457

OP, I would really recommend not bothering with this on an imageboard as it will be a very unproductive discussion for all involved. As I referenced in the post I made >>10454, there are texts which do justice to your grievances, and I really think you should have a read of the book I linked (http://93.174.95.29/_ads/3797D73CC3EA5CCE33D9383A8ED72537). It presents a far better counter-argument to the PoE than could be presented here in with the constraints of imageboard discussion. I would recommend all of you read this book too if you want a serious and rigorous treatment of this problem

>>10457

>I recall this having been a very highly debated issue not a simple "yeah it exists bc bible" for a thousand years

So? You came to debate this on a Christian board, harping about Christian beliefs being inconsistent. Then when presented with how the beliefs are consistent, you pull a non-sequitur and move the goal posts to involve some hand-wavy debates by non-Christians? Learn to debate my friend.

>with no choice but to go to hell.

alright, so now you're just asserting the non-existence of free will so that you can pretend to make a point that doesn't have anything to do with Christian teachings. Cool. You can go discuss your theories on another board then, because you're clearly not talking about Christianity.

>>10458

My proof is the word "infinite" and the implications of INFINITY.

Irrational numbers my ass. You are implying there are feats God cannot do. If God wanted an irrational number to be a rational number he could make it so. Its what all powerful means. Power to do anything.

The point you are making is that if everyone went to heaven because God made people that are designed to go to heaven there would be no free will.

I agree with that point. I simply apply it to what we have now. Some people are made in ways where they will go to heaven. Some people are made in ways that lead us to hell. The point is there is still no free will because God knows the OUTCOME of the free will. He creates a man who he knows will freely choose to sin because GOD made him to be weak willed or something. GOD could have instead better equipped that man so his path would be to heaven.

What? Do you think Mary just happened to be perfect because of her free will? She was born without ORIGINAL SIN. God literally made her perfect and put her on a clear path. He made her in a way and she functioned in that way. That is not free will.

If I made two clocks, one correctly, and one poorly, knowing the poor one will break down, then the poor one breaks down, IT WAS PROGRAMMED INTO THE MACHINE AND WAS THUS EXPECTED. Likewise, God is making people who he knows will eventually fail.

>>10459

>>10454

Yes sorry for ignoring you. I am working on it. Thank you.

>>10460

Non Christians? Hey what does that 2019 number mean? How long ago do you think is a thousand years? The point is CHRISTIAN theologians have debated this issue before and came to no substantial conclusion you FRICKing dunce.

>>10462

>If God wanted an irrational number to be a rational number he could make it so.

That's not how math works. Like at all. Not just in "this universe", but literally any universe. Seriously, learn how math and philosophy actually work if you want to be discussing matters of logic, because this is embarrassing.

>>10453

But we do have a choice. We can choose to do as He tells us.

>>10466

>CHRISTIAN theologians

No, PROTESTANT "theologians". And they haven't even been around for a thousand years yet. Learn some history.

This is the primary flaw with Christianity, and to a lesser extent, Islam. These two religions are the only religions practiced today that have a belief in an eternal torture for mistakes/bad choices/lack of belief during your very short stay on the planet.

>>10467

God can say that's how math works. Math can work differently in a different universe can it not? Who created the very universe that allows these mathematical rules to exist? Creation could have been a chaotic formless blob of randomness in which 2 plus 2 could yeild millions of answers. We are tlaking about completely different universes that this being can create

>>10471

Yeah I am so confident there was no inter religious debate on the issue

>>10473

>Math can work differently in a different universe can it not?

No, it can't. And that's by design. Physics might work differently, but not math. Math isn't an empirical science, so it's not affected by externalities like which universe it's in.

>>10474

*intra

>>10473

That's another big flaw in the logic of some christians. God can do all that is possible, but the impossible is impossible. It is illogical to say God could make 1=2 and just makes christians look foolish and gives strength to atheists.

>>10474

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence my friend, so cough it up.

>>10475

And what is physics but a math based study

>>10479

>the application of math is the same as math itself

are you seriously this poorly educated in mathematics?

>>10477

And its also illogical to say a god who throws people into hell for fun is loving so hey glad we are in agreement

>>10469

Yes, but if he knows all and knows you will choose badly why would he create you in the first place knowing that he would have to condemn you to an eternity in hell. The god you describe would either have to not be able to see the future or they would have to be the most evil creature ever to exist. Is that really how you see the christian god?

>>10480

Oh please educate me on some abstract concept birthed from the universe god created sensei

or we can stay on topic

>>10481

Yes, that's what I said in >>10472

>>10482

It's still your choice.

>>10484

Well pardon me its a bit difficult to tell you all apart given none of you have names atm

>>10485

If God creates someone and already knows they will go to hell because of how he created them it is NOT THEIR CHOICE

>>10477

Well, those people misunderstand what omnipotence is and what it means.

This thread is already turning into a shitshow, so ill just say this: If you want a serious treatment of the Problem of Evil instead of shitflinging in this thread, please read a serious book or text such as: http://93.174.95.29/_ads/3797D73CC3EA5CCE33D9383A8ED72537. Otherwise you are wasting you time, I really cant emphasize this enough

>>10485

You avoided the question. Do you think god doesn't know how you will choose/can't see the future, or do you think he is just completely evil?

>>10488

Disagreeing with you is not shit posting. Your version of omnipotence simply is not sensible and can be rejected out of hand by anyone with the least bit of logic. To quote God, "You can't have a top without a bottom". (bonus points if you know which god I'm talking about

>>10488

If you are the same guy as >>10454 and >>10459 , then yes I am already actively reading

(http://www.ditext.com/mackie/evil.html)

in another tab as I occasionally check in here. Thanks again and I will get to the longer one another night when I have a bit more tolerance, time, and patience.

>>10492

In his defense a shitshow isn't necessarily shitposting

>>10489

It's a false dichotomy. If He created 'you' in such a way that you would make different choices, you would be a different person. 'You' would never have existed. He created you as you are because He loves you. It is still your choice to accept that love or not. Even though He knows and has always known what you will choose, He did not make that choice for you.

>>10449

>Being this gay

Listen friend,

The sum of good and evil is good

Better, in fact, than if there was no evil at all

You really don't think if there was no evil that there could be good, right?

>>10483

the only reason you're having a hard time understanding anything being presented here, is because you seem to have no clue what it is to study abstract/transcendental phenomena like math in the first place. You probably don't even realize that you've implicitly been arguing for a strict naive empiricist position, through the lens of a materialist worldview. Much less recognize the absurdities such a stance leads to.

Here, have some reading:

https://www.iep.utm.edu/mathplat/

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDrama/reading/Wigner.html

https://arachnoid.com/is_math_a_science/

>>10499

Yes actually that is exactly what I am saying and if you think otherwise then I heard of this great religion called Buddhism you should try out

>>10487

>if someone picked up smoking and ended up getting lung cancer, it was NOT THEIR CHOICE

>>10501

If you created people and gave them the freedom to choose between right and wrong, some would inevitably do wrong. You've been arguing that God's omniscience means our decisions have already been made for us when it is self evident that we do have freedom of choice. Look at all the choices people have made. God does not do evil. Humans do evil, because they choose to. And humans also do good because they choose to.

>>10494

The J.L Mackie paper is a succinct formulation of what the problem is and he is arguing against theists in it. It was a seminal paper and has had a huge impact on philosophical discussion in this area.The book I linked is a theodicy, defending the idea of an omniperfect God and the presence of evil in the universe. You can download the book by clicking GET on the page the link I provided sends you to

>>10499

>You really don't think if there was no evil that there could be good, right?

I would be careful of attempting such a theodicy and ultimately do not think it is a good defense. God existed prior to the existence of any creation and hence any occurrence of evil. Does that mean He was not wholly good in that state because there was no evil? Absolutely not. Furthermore, a critic could point to the abundance of arbitrary evil - e.g. a shattered meteor falling from the sky and killing a child with the debris. It isnt clear how such arbitrary evil is seemingly necessary for good to be brought about and for it to exist.

>>10498

But if he knows you will choose not to be christian or to sin and end up in hell forever then why would he create you? If he wasn't evil and he could see the future then he simply WOULDN'T make someone who would end up in hell forever.

If I knew in advance that no matter what I did my child was going to spend forever being tortured I wouldn't have the child in the first place because I'm not cruel. The god you describe IS cruel.

>>10453

>>10449

evil is a necessity these hellbound people cannot be known to you it can be said that they were lacking something to begin with and only seemed human to you. you are coming across as a brainlet there is nothing incompatible with god being all knowing and us having free will you are imagining god as a person and not the metaphysical identity of reality

>>10505

Idk section B part 4 is pretty much my argument. So. Sucks to be on their side. And yes again I have downloaded the book I just want to sleep for now as I have to wake up for work in approximately 6 hours. Ill look at it tomorrow or soon after

>>10506

This

>>10506

those people who went to hell belonged there same as satan who god created knowingly they are the wicked ones you are such a bleeding heart you empathize and humanize devils in hell

>>10506

see why did god make satan

>>10510

whats the average iq on here 90?

>>10508

God could have made us to always use free will to be good bye

>>10492

>Your version of omnipotence simply is not sensible and can be rejected out of hand by anyone with the least bit of logic.

No, its not 'my version' of what omnipotence is, it is the 'version' which most serious philosophers accept. I will state it for you: Omnipotence is simply the ability to bring about anything which is logically conceivable.

And you are shitposting friend, you are putting forward tired arguments in the vein of the paradox of the stone, which has been thoroughly dealt with and not really taken seriously by anyone but dilettante philosophers.

>>10506

Let's look at a hypothetical utopia. No one in this perfect society does evil. This is what the world would look like if God made everyone's choices for them like you keep trying to assert. If He picked who got the right to exist based on what kind of person they were. They ostensibly would have free will, but since they only have one option to choose from, they could not exercise it. The option must be there for free will to have any meaning at all, and the fact that we see people exercising the option is proof that it is there. God permits you to use the gift of free will He gave you as you choose. When you make the choice, the blame is yours, not His.

>>10514

Oh look, "logically conceivable". That's what I said. It doesn't include doing the illogical by your own definition.

>>10509

I am glad you have read the paper, as I think people on both sides need to. The book spends much time addressing the kinds of arguments Mackie is making, so it should be a fruitful read for you whatever you end up choosing to believe

>>10511

So you believe God knowingly created evil people (and good people who just don't happen to believe in him) knowing he would condemn them to eternal torture? That's the definition of an evil and cruel god.

>>10513

you imagine that having free will makes you inherently good, that someone who can make decisions must be good. when you make a decision you are doing so based on contingent factors out of your control and so humans are incapable of truly free action that is the work of god

>>10512

>see why did god make satan

The Satan(s) were made as servants to God. Turning them/him into an evil God is the influence of pagan (specifically helenistic) religious beliefs where they use multiple gods to explain why bad things happen.

>>10515

Punishing your child for all of eternity because of how you made them is cruel and evil. I don't think the god of Abraham is that evil. Eternal torture in hell simply makes no sense.

>>10516

Whoa shit my bad man, didnt see you write that but you did. Sorry about the misunderstanding

>>10513

If you can only choose to do one thing, choice does not exist. In order for choice to exist, we must have choices, and some will choose one thing and some will choose another. If nobody could choose to do wrong and everyone could only choose to do right, there would be no such thing as choice.

>>10522

>From where are you deriving your conception of love, to where removing free will is more loving?

It's not a matter of removing free will, its a matter of not creating a situation in which the person will be tortured for all eternity - just don't create that person.

>Giving the child agency to drive their own car without supervision is an act of love.

Agreed. But if the parent could see the future perfectly like god and knew that the child would be mutilated and live the rest of their life in torment from their injuries due to using the car the loving parent wouldn't lend them the car. Once you add perfect knowledge of the future you are simply cruel if you knowingly allow someone into a situation where they are guaranteed to be harmed.

>>10518

god creates someone evil, said evil person suffers thats what being evil is suffering. these people were created through creation, from the beginnings when things were set into motion until now. these peoples failures are all interconnected and the ascension to heaven for the good is contingent on the descent into hell for the bad. saying that god making a bad person bad makes god bad is to say that bad shouldnt exist thats all you guys failure to understand the necessity of evil for the experience of free will

>>10523

those who burn in hell are not children of god they are satan spawn

>>10526

You're arguing that the act of creation was an unloving act, because suffering exists here and in the afterlife. Is that right?

That's really just a value judgment by you.

Given that creation exists, and supposing for the sake of argument God exists as described in the Bible, it is logically conceivable that His status as all-loving is maintained and that your judgment of the morality of creating even though suffering occurs is mistaken.

>>10528

Ah, so you believe Satan has the same power of creation as God? Two equal gods, that's rather un-christian of you.

>>10529

Everything is a judgement but yes, in my opinion torturing someone for all of eternity (maybe TRILLIONS of years) because they didn't believe in you but were otherwise a good person isn't even a marginal thing. It is clearly evil because it is so horrifically out of proportion.

The Muslim and Bahai sects that believe hell is temporary (until the scales are balanced) is at least something that is justifiable but forever? That's just unrestrained evil to create someone knowing that they would end up with that kind of horrible existence and unreasonable punishment.

>>10526

You're saying God should only have created people who chose A and no one who chose B. If no one chooses B, then only A is an option. If we only have one option, there is no free will. So yes, it is a matter of removing free will.

>>10517

Thanks for being the only person worth talking to here

>>10522

Haha posted funny face man so Im right

Blow it out your ass cunt

>>10534

Interesting argument, friend. I guess you've "won". How does that make you feel?

>>10518

>That's the definition of an evil and cruel god.

Unfortunately, you wouldn't even be able to make such a distinction between "good" and "evil" if it weren't for God. However, it is your choice how you assign those labels. So as you can imagine, assigning "evil" to God isn't something that's likely to bode well for you.

>>10533

No problem, it is a very serious topic, and should be treated as such. As this is a Christian board, I would have hoped Christians here could maintain a degree of cordiality and kind-heartedness when talking to others, especially non-Christians who are presenting their grievances with certain aspects of the faith.

>>10534

>Blow it out your ass cunt

I cant say I appreciate this sort of thing though OP and you shouldnt expect level headed responses when you talk like this - cordiality is definitely a two way street. Having said that I would not expect the Christians here to talk like this, but seeing as this does not include you I cant hold you to the standard.

>>10531

> in my opinion torturing someone for all of eternity (maybe TRILLIONS of years) because they didn't believe in you but were otherwise a good person isn't even a marginal thing. It is clearly evil because it is so horrifically out of proportion.

Then you're misunderstanding what hell even is. It's not like you'll be getting beat repeatedly by bullies, it's more like an unending self-inflicted depression because you refuse to change your perspective on something. Read 'The Great Divorce' by C S Lewis if you want to understand the concept better. Vid related.

>>10531

>(eternal damnation) because they didn't believe in you but were otherwise a good person isn't even a marginal thing. It is clearly evil

You're mistaking the Christian conception of the relationship between God and man. In the Biblical picture of damnation, the damned are there because they deserve it for sinning against God. The saved are not damned because they accepted the free gift of salvation after God condescended to us in grace.

You are not a "good person", you are a wretched sinner. God is perfectly good, any sin is infinitely evil by relation.

Again, you're still just importing your conception of what's good and what's not. I'm arguing that the Christian position is consistent, even if it doesn't align with your presupposed moral code.

>>10531

Not this dumb meme again

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/the-river-of-fire-kalomiros/

Also, no. Muslims believe that hell is eternal. Maybe you should not limit your knowledge with internet memes.

>>10505

If a being created two things whose sums is good, then that being is good.

Which I'm not arguing that God DIRECTLY created evil either. Only that he necessarily knew it would exist and come forth from his creation.

>>10564

>If a being created two things whose sums is good, then that being is good.

I would be interested to know exactly what you mean when you talk about good. It a concept notorious for having such a huge disparity in meaning amongst philosophers.

>>10566

Ultimately, God determines what is good.

However, good means "that which eliminates suffering, physical and spiritual."

The commandments God gives us reduce our physical suffering, and following them is good.

Believing on the Lord Jesus reduces our spiritual suffering by granting us an eternal place in Heaven.

I think all philosophers would agree that "good" from the human perspective would mean a lack of suffering.

>>10453

Him knowing where you end up doesn't mean you didn't choose to be there in the first place. You have the choice to be righteous or be a faggot. It says multiple times that it grieves him to send people to hell, but they made the choice to reject truth (and by extension him) so ultimately it is perfectly just. You seem to think God's primary attribute is "Love" whereas the God of scripture is one that's more interested in Justice and Truth, to the point he describes himself as Logic incarnate.

>>10568

>You seem to think God's primary attribute is "Love"…

Except that it is. God IS love

And such legalistic autistic attitude is one of the reasons that caused the weakening of Western Christendom

>>10637

You're going to have two perspectives here, no matter what. Good from God's perspective, and good from the human perspective.

God simply made everything for his own pleasure. He saw nothingness as "not good," and creation, as "good."

We, as created beings, cannot necessarily define how the universe *should* be. Only the Creator can decide how things *should* be.

That being said, we have the Bible, which says God does not want us to suffer. And in the Bible, we have God's commandments, which, if followed, reduce suffering. Therefore, I can deduce that God's Good includes the reduction of suffering.