/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

You should feel weird because its not appropriate. Its not blasphemy though, it's debateably idolatry. Blasphemy is to make railing accusations against someone, and not just the Lord. The bible forbids blaspheming the devil.

Catholics will often pray to Mary as a divine agent with her own power. This is not supported in the official teachings of the roman church, but they're not exactly solving that problem.

The official intercessor teaching is plausible but there's no biblical basis and theres affirmative reason NOT to attempt to communicate with the dead. At the very least the protestant position is being conservative and erring on the side of caution.

>Repeating the words of the Archangel Gabriel is idolatry.

I'm pretty sure it's not idolatry, but denying the Bible and substituting your own words is heresy.

>>851097

>Catholics will often pray to Mary as a divine agent with her own power. This is not supported in the official teachings of the roman church,

Pope Leo XIII disagrees with you in his "Octobri mense" of 1891 an offical teaching of the Catholic Church. "… just as no one can approach the highest Father except through the Son, so no one can approach Christ except though His Mother.".

Also, she is like Eve, created without sin. No original sin, no death or pain of childbirth. She never died and was taken up into heaven, body and soul together, by almighty God.

Not sure why you don't believe in eternal life, even for sinners.

>>851095

The spiritual message is there is no Logos without Wisdom.

>inb4 someone accuses me of making Mary a concept and/or goddess

>>851102

Elaborate

>>851104

Thanks Baptist bro. No one said Catholics didn't pray to God also, so that's not really relevant.

>>851105

As long as you agree and understand, good.

>>851107

Rom. viii. 34

>34 It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

In the sixth chapter of Isaiah, we read that the great prophet had a vision of the Lord and His throne.

Isaiah 6: 1-3

>I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne high and elevated: and his train filled the temple. Upon it stood the seraphims: the one had six wings, and the other had six wings: with two they covered his face, and with two they covered his feet, and with two they flew. And they cried one to another, and said: Holy, holy, holy, the Lord God of hosts, all the earth is full of his glory.

The angels’ cries of ‘Holy, holy, holy,’ refute the Protestant claim that a recited prayer, such as the Our Father or the Hail Mary, is a vain repetition. Isaiah continues:

Isaiah 6:4

>And the lintels of the doors were moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

One is struck by the prophet’s awesome description of the Lord sitting upon His throne with His angels about Him. The question then is whether the angels with their wings and their cries and praises of the Almighty, which feature in Isaiah’s description, detract from or accentuate the glory of God. An honest assessment of the question must acknowledge that the inclusion of the angels in this vision serves to accentuate and more fully express the magnificence of God; the angels neither distract from God nor diminish His glory, nor sinfully shift the focus to the beings He has created. Rather, the attention on the actions and the glory of His created beings, beings who are giving Him glory, illustrates His grandeur even more powerfully. The sixth chapter of Isaiah therefore serves as a small but good example of how devotion to saints and a rightful recognition of their place in God’s kingdom and the economy of salvation does not take away from the acts of God or from His glory. On the contrary, by recognising the place that He has chosen to give them, as well as the glory the King has chosen to give them within His Kingdom, we can better appreciate the surpassing greatness of the King Himself.

The Book of Daniel captures the same truth in its description of the Lord and of those who minister to him.

Daniel 7:10

>A swift stream of fire issued forth from before him: thousands of thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times a hundred thousand stood before him: the judgment sat, and the books were opened.

The countless ministering multitudes give us a greater reverence and appreciation of the Lord of Hosts. And Jesus similarly tells us that saints shall be as the angels of God in heaven (Matthew 22:30).

The Protestant view of God and the Protestant view of His operations are empty. For under the pretext of protecting God’s glory, Protestantism deviates from the biblical model and detracts from that which it claims to protect.

>>851109

Returning to the vision of Isaiah we read that upon seeing the striking vision of God’s throne the prophet is overwhelmed with his own sinfulness and unworthiness:

Isaiah 6:5-7

>And I said: Woe is me, because I have held my peace; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people that hath unclean lips, and I have seen with my eyes the King the Lord of hosts. And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Protestant apologist James White comments on this verse in his book, The God Who Justifies, claiming that:

The God Who Justifies, p.19

>“Isaiah found no solace in the offerings he had brought to the altar or in his standing as a child of Abraham. No, he found cleansing solely in the act of God.”

White, in attempting to justify the false Protestant position, contradicts the Scripture. God is the one who forgives; there is no forgiveness without Him or without his acts. But we read in this very passage of Isaiah that it was the act of the Seraph touching the lips of Isaiah with the coal that cleansed Isaiah of his sin and removed his iniquities. Certainly, the forgiveness and the cleansing that came through the coal administered by the angel originated in the power of God. This passage nevertheless demonstrates that God sometimes uses instrumentalities and intercessors to deliver His forgiveness and His grace. In the same way that He can confer the power of forgiveness upon the coal and the angel who uses it, God can also confer the forgiveness of sins upon the water of baptism, sanctified by His saving blood and the Holy Ghost, as is clearly taught in the New Testament.

John 3:5

>Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38

>But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16

>And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

Ephesians 5:26

>That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:

It is thus interesting to note that a Protestant by claiming that Isaiah was cleansed solely by the act of God contradicts the very description of the text.

>>851109

That's cool but its entirely off topic and a strawman argument. Did you copy this from some blog?

>>851110

"Do penance" is a deliberate, centuries old mistranslation when the correct translation is "repent".

>>851098

Do we accept that the Ave Maria is right out of the Bible and not blasphemy because the Bible isn't blasphemy or is this canard of an argument going to pop up in bad faith in yet another thread?

>>851098

Why do I need Mary to intercede for me when I can speak to Jesus directly? Another thing this text does not prove why I should pray to Mary… I agree she is blessed of course but that is not enough evidence to pray to her.

>>851100

Enoch was taken into heaven without death and was placed upon the highest heaven with God, should I pray to Enoch as well?

>>851146

>I can speak to Jesus directly?

Yes, you can, but you'll ask for the wrong things, so No, you can't.

>this text does not prove why I should pray to Mary.

Mary is the mother of God. Salvation comes through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross (which represents our sins) but Jesus is God and Man. As Man, he is bound by the 10 commandments to honor his mother.

And Jesus, from the Cross, made the Virgin our mother. Disrespect of the Blessed Virgin is thus a mortal sin.

>should I pray to Enoch as well?

Ask whatever saint you wish to intercede for you. I am fond of Saint Roch and have had good success.

>>851146

>Another thing this text does not prove why I should pray to Mary

You do realize that most of the Ave Maria comes right out of Bible, and the first part is right out of what the Messenger of God the Father Almighty told the Archangel Gabriel was told to address the Blessed Virgin.

Not sure why you have less respect of the Blessed Virgin than the Angels sent by Almighty God who created all things.

>>851111

I did not consider what I wrote as off-topic - its purpose was to demonstrate a recognition of, and devotion to, the saints and Mary is biblical, and that God uses intercessors, such as the saints and Mary, to deliver His forgiveness and His Grace.

Penance is repentance of sins.

The mere designation of an argument as a strawman is not a refutation.

>>851119

Prayer is a species of worship.

In Psalm 135, wherein the phrase “His mercy endures forever” concludes all twenty-six verses.

Jesus repeats the same prayer three times in a row when praying to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:39, 42, 44).

And in Revelations, “And the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round about and within they are full of eyes. And they rested not day and night, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come” [Revelations 4:8].

>>851119

What then is Jesus condemning? For He is not condemning prayers which contain words that are repeated nor is he condemning multiple repetitions of the same prayer. Rather, He is denouncing the practices of the pagans. The pagans thought they could please their false gods by their eloquence and elaborate speeches. They thought that they had to precisely say the correct words and names on certain days lest their false gods refuse to hear or remember their needs. Jesus is denouncing their paganism and teaching them that the true God knows all things. Thus, the objection that Protestants frequently raise against Catholic prayers and the manner in which they are said more than once is utterly without foundation. This objection constitutes another example of Protestants’ misunderstanding of the Bible.

To wit, the substance of the Hail Mary is found in the Bible and the Catholic Church’s prayers to Mary in the Hail Mary and the Rosary are predicted by Mary herself: “And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed” [Luke 1: 46-48]. Here we read that Mary predicted that all generations shall call her blessed. The Catholic Hail Mary prayer refers to Mary as blessed twice, and this prayer has been said by millions throughout Catholic history. The Catholic Church is the fulfilment of Mary’s prophecy that all generations of the true Church will call her blessed.

>>851162

You are LITERALLY, EXPRESSLY telling people not to pray to Jesus. You need to forget everything you think you know and start over at john 1.

>>851161

>I did not consider what I wrote as off-topic

It is entirely off topic because none of those things are what is in question, prayer. What is on topic is the passage of Matthew 6:7-8 which says:

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

>its purpose was to demonstrate a recognition of, and devotion to, the saints and Mary is biblical,

"Devotion to" is weasel words. You have not defined what that even means. You could have dual meanings behind that. Does it mean worshipping? Potentially it does.

>is biblical, and that God uses intercessors,

Not according to the Bible. According to the Bible those are our intercessors, only Christ Jesus is our intercessor as according to the below Biblical reference.

Rom. viii. 34

>34 It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb. vii. 25

>25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The Holy Bible actually tells us that Christ is our intercessor. That is the true Biblical position. Trying to move that away from Him is simply reviving paganism. People just translate the roman gods and aspect deities - into saints. That's all it is. It is false god worship as opposed to Christ worship.

>The mere designation of an argument as a strawman is not a refutation.

Whoever you copy pasted from is acting as Satan by twisting the Lord's words and making them into a commandment ("never repeat yourself") that can be broken. No. The commandment is with regards to prayer for the specific reasons that you left out because you did not even quote the passage in question, Matthew 6:7-8.

The serpent said in Genesis 3:1, "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" But he was misquoting God's word. He was trying to get someone to think they were breaking it already or that the command was unreasonable on its face. You do the same thing here by implying the command is never to repeat yourself and then citing an example to the contrary. But we see that everyone repeats the lines of songs, hymns and spiritual song. There are plenty of Psalms that contain repeating refrains. That has nothing to do with vain repetitions taking the form of prayer. You are saying and implying that Jesus commands something that nobody follows, when it actually the command has to do with prayer for the specific reasons that you left out because you did not even quote the words of Jesus Christ on this matter in Matthew 6:7-8.

>In Psalm 135

Already addressed it here >>851119

where I said, "There are plenty of Psalms that contain repeating refrains."

The Psalm is not a prayer though. How does this excuse vain repetitions that Christ commands against in Matthew 6:7-8 in regards to prayer. It does not.

>[Revelations 4:8].

Already addressed it here >>851119 (see that previous post) where I said, "Prayer is to "make petitions to heaven" or "To entreat, to ask submissively" and "In a general sense, the act of asking for a favor, and particularly with earnestness." That is not what the angels in Isaiah 6 or Revelation 4 are doing, they are worshipping."

You have ignored my already existing answers. Because I already addressed both of these cases directly above in the post 851119, in the case of Revelation 4 I even cited the passage directly before you even mentioned it. It is not a counterexample because it is not a prayer. So, you're making a strawman argument still and repeatedly parroting the same strawman argument again as shown here for those who are reading.

>(Matthew 26:39, 42, 44).

And where is the contradiction with the commandment not to make vain repetitions. How do you prove that any of the prayers were identical and repetitious? You cannot show that from the Bible. In fact, I can prove they are not, simply because clearly Jesus practiced what He preached. The Gospels do not contain his words in all instances in order to show what you are trying to show. If they did show what you are trying to show, which they do not, then you would only be creating a contradiction with Matthew 6:7-8.

>>851166

>[Luke 1: 46-48].

I say Mary the mother of Jesus is blessed. And I also keep the commandment of the Lord and do not make vain repetitions. I do both of those things, but I see another person here attacking one of them as Satan the deceiver did, twisting Christ's words. Making Him into a liar and saying we should all ignore a clear command. But as Jesus himself said in Luke xi. 28, "blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

>>851175

>You could have dual meanings behind that. Does it mean worshipping? Potentially it does.

An entirely uncharitable argument. 'Could' does not mean 'does'.

The hierarchy of Catholic worship; of latria, hyperdulia and dulia; is what is meant.

The specificity of Christ's words, "use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do" is important to their understanding. I will repeat for emphasis: "as the heathens do".

As I already explained Jesus' condemnation elsewhere: >>851166

Christ is denouncing the practices of the pagans.

You have falsely defined the "vain repetitions", and this is the foundation of your heretical position.

>God uses intercessors

>Not according to the Bible…

>…only Christ Jesus is our intercessor

Self-contradictory.

You admit that the Son is an intercessor to His Father yet neither Romans 8:34 nor Hebrews 7:25 preclude the intercession of the saints. Moreover, were the forgiveness and grace of the Father only possible through the intercession of the Son this would not preclude the intercession of the Son through the intercession of the saints and angels.

Your argument is therefore invalid as you have not proven that the saints cannot intercede with the Son or the Father. Whereas the prophecy of Isaiah proves my position that God can and does use his angels as instruments of intercession. And as Jesus said, the angels shall be as saints. Hence, God can does use the saints as instruments of intercession as well.

Your use of ignoratio elenchi, of shifting to a discussion of "vain repetitions", further demonstrates that you are incapable of approaching the intercession of the saints with intellectual honesty. You resist clear and logical argument and oppose the truth, for you are wicked.

>>851154

I'm not disrespecting her, I'm just not praying to her, how is that disrespect, I feel as if I should only pray to God/Jesus himself, no one else.

>>851155

How is that less respect, again you are dodging my point, why should I pray to her? Yes she was addressed by Angels, yes she is blessed, yes she was the mother of Jesus/God, I still don't understand why I must pray to her when I can pray to Jesus/God, in fact it really doesn't make sense to me, that I need to pray to someone to reach Jesus, i'm not the most learnt man alive, hardly in fact but it seems a bit ludicrous.

>>851180

God established a covenant with David in order to establish a Kingdom. The Davidic Monarchy, the Kingdom of God on Earth, was meant to be a prototype of the spiritual Kingdom of God which Jesus Christ would establish. For this reason, Jesus is called the son of David in the Gospels. So too is it why Peter himself says in Acts 2:30 that Jesus sits upon David’s throne. Luke 1:32 says the following of Jesus:

>He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

Now, in the Hebrew monarchy, the most powerful, honoured and important woman in the Kingdom was the mother of the King. She was known as “the Queen Mother.” In Hebrew, she was called “the Gebirah.” The Gebirah, the Queen Mother of the Kingdom, possessed a unique power of influence with the King. Her influence, power and prestige surpassed that of the King’s wife. We clearly see the unique influence and power of the “Queen Mother” in 3 Kings 1 and 2.

King Solomon’s mother was Bathsheba. Bathsheba’s power and influence as Queen Mother was so great that Adonias (or Adonijah) said this to her:

3 Kings 2:17

>And he said: I pray thee speak to king Solomon (for he cannot deny thee any thing) to give me Abisag the Sunamitess to wife.

Adonias understood the position and the power of the Queen Mother. However, the request that Adonias made was unreasonable. Adonias wanted to marry Abisag, who was King David’s last wife. By taking her to wife, Adonias could have made a claim on Solomon’s throne. Thus, the King could not have granted his request.

Even though Adonias’ request was unreasonable and would never have been granted by the King, this shows us that it was recognized that the Queen Mother had a unique and profound power of influence with the King. This influence was so great that Adonias said: “he cannot deny thee anything.”

In 3 Kings 2:19, we read that Bathsheba, the Queen Mother, went in to speak to King Solomon to ask of him the favour. When she entered, the King bowed himself to her and caused a throne to be set up for her next to him.

3 Kings 2:19-20

>Then Bethsabee came to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonias: and the king arose to meet her, and bowed to her, and sat down upon his throne: and a throne was set for the king's mother, and she sat on his right hand. And she said to him: I desire one small petition of thee, do not put me to confusion. And the king said to her: My mother, ask: for I must not turn away thy face.

As we can see, the Bible teaches that the Queen Mother is honoured on a throne with the King. She is not equal to the King, of course; but she is honoured along with him as the Queen of the Kingdom. Here we see a perfect description of the Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of her influence with the King. She is the Queen Mother in the Kingdom of Jesus. Mary is infinitely inferior to her Divine Son. However, she is the perfect Ark, the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Mary has such a power in Heaven under her Divine Son – a power and influence that is greater than what the Queen Mother of the Old Testament had over the King. It is why it is so effective to ask favours of her, so that she can ask them of Jesus. She is placed, in the Kingdom of Jesus, beside Him as the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

>>851180

The Ark of the Old Covenant had awe-striking power. When it was taken by the Philistines, extraordinary things happened to them and to their false god, Dagon.

1 Samuel 5:1-5

>And the Philistines took the ark of God, and carried it from the Stone of help into Azotus. And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it into the temple of Dagon, and set it by Dagon. And when the Azotians arose early the next day, behold Dagon lay upon his face on the ground before the ark of the Lord: and they took Dagon, and set him again in his place. And the next day again, when they rose in the morning, they found Dagon lying upon his face on the earth before the ark of the Lord: and the head of Dagon, and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold: And only the stump of Dagon remained in its place. For this cause neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that go into the temple tread on the threshold of Dagon in Azotus unto this day.

The Philistines began to be destroyed for having taken the Ark. This prompted them to return the Ark to their enemies, the Israelites.

1 Samuel 5:7

>And the men of Azotus seeing this kind of plague, said: The ark of the God of Israel shall not stay with us: for his hand is heavy upon us, and upon Dagon our god.

The Ark struck mortal terror into the face of God’s enemies.

1 Samuel 5:10

>Therefore they sent the ark of God into Accaron. And when the ark of God was come into Accaron, the Accaronites cried out, saying: They have brought the ark of the God of Israel to us, to kill us and our people.

The waters of the Jordan were miraculously dried up by the Ark.

Josue 3:13-14

>[And the Lord said the Josue:] And when the priests, that carry the ark of the Lord the God of the whole earth, shall set the soles of their feet in the waters of the Jordan, the waters that are beneath shall run down and go off: and those that come from above, shall stand together upon a heap. So the people went out of their tents, to pass over the Jordan: and the priests that carried the ark of the covenant, went on before them.

Mary, the New Ark, has this power and even more; for the fulfilment is greater than the type, and the New Testament is greater than the Old.

>>851180

>I feel as if I should only pray to God/Jesus himself, no one else

If you reject her as your mother, and won't ask her for what you need for your soul to grow, you are disrespecting her and are loss. The Blessed Virgin is the Ark of the new covenant, made pure and without sin by God the Father Almighty to bring his Son, the Word of God into this world, undo the sin of Adam and Eve, and bring your salvation.

From the cross the LORD told John that the Blessed Virgin was now his mother.

Sad to hear that you're not on speaking terms with your heavenly mother.

Mary the Goddess will give you superpowers and send you straight to heaven if you worship her.

>>851197

Thank you for >>851196

>Telling people not to pray to the Lord is basically the epitome of Antichrist.

The Bible is not the antichrist nor is it Satanic. I already explained it is straight out of the Book of Job. Why do you deny the Bible? God doesn't want to see your sin filled face. And you will ask for the wrong things. For example, if you ask for anything that is not good for your soul would not be heard. Or if you are in a state of mortal sin, which almost all protestants are, you can only pray for faith in the true Church of Jesus Christ and you can pray for grace to resist sin.

Job 42:8Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust: and my servant Job shall pray for you; his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you; for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath

>>851197

no Catholic believes that. Please stop LARPing as Catholic and mocking the Holy Ghost.

>>851196

>"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:"

your misunderstanding is what the Lord meant by vain. In the context that the Lord Jesus also gave us the Lord's Prayer, your interpretation of the word vain repetitions is obviously wrong.

In short, those who pray and don't listen to their own prayers can't expect God to listen. Those who pray have to think about what they're praying. It's true when you have 50 Ave Maria prayers and you know the prayer so well you mind can wander to other things even as the mouth voices the words, but we are to think about the prayer.

Lots of praying, in and of itself, is a virtue and not a sin.

>>851186

>You did not specify which one is meant.

This differs with the subject of worship, i.e., the hyperdulia of Mary differs from the dulia of a saint in degree of worship.

>Romanists who are heathens

Here you are again ignoring the point of the discussion.

>You skipped over all of the above rebuttals, so I take that as conceding not having a response.

Your "rebuttals" are as nothing. For as I have already said, our difference is in the understanding of the phrase "vain repetitions". I have already given the Catholic position:

>He is denouncing the practices of the pagans. The pagans thought they could please their false gods by their eloquence and elaborate speeches. They thought that they had to precisely say the correct words and names on certain days lest their false gods refuse to hear or remember their needs. Jesus is denouncing their paganism and teaching them that the true God knows all things.

And you have given your own position:

>Christ Jesus told us not to use vain repetitions in prayer.

Now, your position is not a definition but is rather a circular argument. For you have not defined what is meant by "vain repetitions" nor "vain repetitions in prayer." Your argument is vaporous and hence, unproven.

>There is no further need to discuss the points about your straw man of Jesus Christ, where you place words in his mouth and argue against them to try to prove that his commandment is meaningless so that it is alright to break and ignore the commandment as you have done.

This is a strawman of the Catholic position. I have not "placed words in his [Jesus] mouth, we differ in our interpretation of His words.

>It is time to become a Bible-believing Christian

Laughable from a Baptist. The beginnings of your Protestantism were as useful agitators for Cromwell - rebels to be used as tools and then cast aside.

There is only one true Christian faith, the traditional Catholic faith, outside of which there is no salvation.

>>851199

Extending this point, on the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints:

Job 33:23-24

>If there shall be an angel speaking for him, one among thousands, to declare man's uprightness, He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption: I have found wherein I may be merciful to him.

Tobit 12:12

>When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I [Archangel Raphael] offered thy prayer to the Lord.

Revelation 8:3-4

>And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, writing to Pope Cornelius

>Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father.

St. Hilary of Poitiers

>To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defences of angels are wanting.

St. Athanasius

>In one of his letters, St. Basil [the Great] explicitly writes that he accepts the intercession of the apostles, prophets and martyrs, and he seeks their prayers to God. (Letter 360) Then, speaking about the Forty Martyrs, who suffered martyrdom for Christ, he emphasizes that they are common friends of the human race, strong ambassadors and collaborators in fervent prayers.

St. Basil

>According to the blameless faith of the Christians which we have obtained from God, I confess and agree that I believe in one God the Father Almighty; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost; I adore and worship one God, the Three. I confess to the oeconomy of the Son in the flesh, and that the holy Mary, who gave birth to Him according to the flesh, was Mother of God. I acknowledge also the holy apostles, prophets, and martyrs; and I invoke them to supplication to God, that through them, that is, through their mediation, the merciful God may be propitious to me, and that a ransom may be made and given me for my sins. Wherefore also I honour and kiss the features of their images, inasmuch as they have been handed down from the holy apostles, and are not forbidden, but are in all our churches.

St. Ambrose of Milan

>May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benignant countenance.

St. Augustine

>At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.

>>851200

I'm not LARPing. This is what Catholics really believe. You're mocking the Holy Ghost.

>>851200

>trolling dense party poopers is mocking the Holy Ghost

You're a bigger joke than the joke you whined about.

>>851199

Why do you want to tell someone, anyone not to pray in Jesus' name unto the Father?

John 14:

>13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

I Timothy 2:

>5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

>The Bible is not the antichrist nor is it Satanic. I already explained it is straight out of the Book of Job.

The book of Job is accurate, and so am I based on the New Testament. The only thing that is evil in this situation is the idea that we should NOT pray to God according to the word of Jesus, who said we are to pray to the Father in His name. The Lord's prayer is addressed to God, not redirected to false gods like what some seems to be encouraging in here. Are you sure you want to take the stand that we are not supposed to obey Jesus and pray the Lord's prayer, standing obediently in prayer, forgiving any we have something against, and praying in the name of Jesus our Savior?

>>851202

<"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do:"

>your misunderstanding is what the Lord meant by vain.

What comes after the colon? You see where you cut off the rest of the scripture? Here, anon, is what comes from both before and after the colon:

>But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

As I explained here >>851196 this fits the definition of Romists completely, because as I said "Romanists who are heathen, think that if you repeat the chant enough times you might be heard."

So, we see that according to the part of the verse that you insist in denying, Jesus Christ personally said that they "think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." You cut the sentence off after the colon to hide this. And so it is with the chant. They say, "only after a magical hundred repetitions of this will anything happen." This fits Jesus' description. They think the much speaking will cause them to be heard. And I am simply pointing out how you keep removing that part of the verse in your quotations. I didn't write Matthew 6:7-8, but I can certainly tell from all this that you do not like to quote the full word of God.

How many times now have I see you quote merely part of the verse, leaving out the bit that does not fit at all with the catholic cult? You rely on talking points that assume the listener has never read Scripture before, and does not know the basics about what Matthew 6:7-8 says.

>7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

>8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

>Lots of praying, in and of itself, is a virtue and not a sin.

It is possible to pray without breaking Christ's commandments against vain repetitions. It is possible to pray without "speaking" the same things hundreds of times and thinking that magically, the hundredth time will affect anything - "I should be rewarded for saying the same thing 1000 times!" - which is exactly what the heathens do according to the Savior Jesus in Matthew 6:7-8. And they think, and I quote, that "they shall be heard for their much speaking."

>>851095

>just saying the words "Hail Mary" doesn't sit right with me

And Angle of God once said those exact words though.

>The deeper question lies within is asking Mary to pray for you same as asking a friend

Yes it is. It is good for Christians to pray for other Christians, right? If so, then the Christians who are in Heaven should continue to pray for the Christians who are not. We ask The Saints for their intercession because, as The Bible says, "The prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

>>851212

Anything not sourced by the Bible is meaningless to me.

Reading the arguments in the thread, the Catholics have not convinced me what so ever, I'm going to read the bible and pray to God to show me the right and true way so I may not be held astray and disrespect his coming to this Earth and his kingdom in Heaven, anyways thank you for the discussion and God bless all of you, I'll pray for you all.

>>851539

You weren't chosen by grace.

>>851537

I see you've chosen your idol and decided God abandoned all other forms of communication. You might as well say Tolkien's letters aren't canon which is an equally absurd proposition.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/do-catholics-pray-vain-repetitions

The “vain repetition” argument doesn’t hold up. The argument in the article are based on scripture, so it should satisfy the Baptist.

>>851617

Every time a catholic mindlessly repeats the rosary without meaning it is a vain repitition. This happens all the time and the rote design of the rosary enables this behavior.

>>851146

>Why do I need Mary to intercede for me when I can speak to Jesus directly?

Because Mary can say it better than you can. Simple as.

>>851162

This is the worst exegesis of Job I've ever seen.

>>851627

>Every time a catholic mindlessly repeats the rosary without meaning it is a vain repitition

Catholics will warn you this can be a danger. Still, it's worth the risk rather than not praying at all.

>>851627

>Every time a catholic mindlessly repeats the rosary without meaning it is a vain repitition.

Agreed. Is that the fault of the Rosay or is that the fault of lukewarm people praying? Should we stop praying the Our Father because some people repeat it vainly?

>>851095

The Bible states that you should pray to no one other than the Father, not the Holy Spirit, or even the Son. Mary had only the righteousness that God granted her, she is not worthy of praise, worship, or prayer.

>>852713

>Mary had only the righteousness that God granted her, she is not worthy of praise

"From henceforth all generations will call me blessed"

But then came a billion denominations who refuse to do so….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmii0zRKP5A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sqpKp_eVn4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o48-Jo2p9wM

>>852713

This one is great too, get the book

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4tYV6j_k1g

>>851627

You're not wrong, to be honest. This is a problem all Catholics face.

If you don't listen to your own prayers, why should God and the Saints?

After awhile, you get where your mind can wander even as your lips say the prayers. It takes mental discipline to prevent that.

For example, a Hail Mary - Think about greeting the blessed virgin who is on a hill with the sun behind her, then it gets brighter as she's "full of grace" from God, then think about her being pregnant with the Lord, Then she's on a pedestal dressed in brilliant blue and white surrounded by other women in gray and shadow, and then an image of her holding the Child Jesus.

Then think of what is your concerns for this prayer now, and then think of yourself on your death bed and the four last things: death, judgement, heaven or hell.

I don't like saying the Rosary in church. I know that you get more benefit saying it in church, but they say it so fast!

>>852713

God does not hear the prayers of those in Mortal sin because they speak and God will not hear your folly.

Job 42:7-9

''And after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Themanite : My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends, because you have not spoken the thing that is right before my, as my servant Job hath. 8Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust : and my servant Job shall pray for you : his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you : for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath. 9So Eliphaz the Themanite, and Baldad the Suhite, and Sophar the Naamathite went, and did as the Lord had spoken to them, and the Lord accepted the face of Job.

and Apocalypse 8:4

4And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel

Bible clearly says that we are to pray to the saints unless we are faithful servants of the Lord. The church (one church, Matt 16:18 IIRC) says that is because, as stated in Job, we are likely to ask for the wrong things e.g. women, wealth, etc

>>852707

Being a good Catholic requires great mental discipline.

Praying the Rosary properly is an exercise to keep the mind focused.

>>852732

I'm not baptized yet, but I yearn to.

That means I shouldn't pray directly to God ? I'm trying to pray the Rosary every day of the week, should I skip the "Our Father" ?

I don't want to offense God, yet I keep sinning by my own weakness.

There's no excuses for this, even more so when I believe. But a life composed of 22 years of sins is impossible to change alone.

Can't I ask God to give me strength and humbleness ?

I feel my own disgust as it is, but I'm not strong willed, my spirit is meek and my health isn't so good. But I take this state as a consequence/trial for my sins.

I don't want to think about what would happen if I were to unexpectedly die before confirming my faith by Baptism and turning my life around. I'm honestly very scared, yet too timid to take action in the current state of the world.

Please pray for me anons.