62d6bf No.836579 [Last50 Posts]
What's /christian/'s thoughts on the Shroud of Turin? Is it authentic?
I remember there was a famous info graphic that was made on the old board supposedly proving its authenticity.
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78d389 No.836583
Probably fake, Jesus had a separate cloth for his face, but either way it doesn't matter
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41537c No.836585
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159aee No.836593
Supporting evidence is tenuous and there is huge motivation for forgeries. Occam's razor says to suppose it's fake. It wouldn't make any difference if it was real anyway besides being a neat artifact.
Looking at Israel's relationship with items of worship in the Old Testament I have a pet theory that God had everything to be lost or destroyed. It still didn't keep hocus pocus superstitious catholics from claiming to have several pieces of the holy foreskin throughout the centuries.
I heard that the guy that made the pasta about the shroud apostasized months or years later. The thread might be in the archives here https://8kun.top/christian/archive/index.html
Does anyone have the screenshot so we can find the thread name and post number?
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8c6e33 No.836612
>>836583
The Sudarium of Oviedo (the face cloth of Jesus) is 100% consistent with the forensic analysis of the Shroud of Turin, and the the idea that both a full-body shroud and a face cloth were used is consistent with ancient burial techniques.
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8c6e33 No.836613
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2c99b7 No.836633
>>836613
Could it not be any man of the first century? Given that even at Christ's crucifixion there were two at his side, one might imagine a lot of jews were killed.
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938437 No.836636
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>836633
>Could it not be any man of the first century?
The injuries match the injuries of Christ, but also it isn't just about wrapping some anonymous crucified jew and waiting 2,000 years to see what his shroud would look like. The image cannot be reproduced especially considering that the image is only upon the top two micro layers. The most exciting theory that I have heard so far to explain such a shallow imprinting onto the shroud is an intense radiation burst which would coincide with the resurrection. I have watched a number of shroud documentaries and lectures sometime back, and I think this is the lecture that explains the radiation theory. Forgive me if it is the wrong one. Also a book by Mark Antonacci entitled Test the Shroud: At the Atomic and Molecular Levels goes into this in much more detail. You can always get a ton of up to date information from the main shroud site as well.
https://shroud.com/
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8c6e33 No.836754
>>836633
Another crucified man who was given the maximum penalty of scourging before his execution and who wore a crown of thorns and whose burial cloths were kept as relics throughout the ages? I think not.
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627e6b No.836778
>>836579
>What's /christian/'s thoughts on the Shroud of Turin? Is it authentic?
Most likely. Everyone that argues it's fake ignores tests or studies that have been done. First, they don't know how the image got there but they know it wasn't painted on because it doesn't penetrate the fabric at all. Anatomically it's correct. . .I could go on and on but the preponderance of the evidence suggests that it's real. In fact, if it weren't a Christian relic, there would be no debate about it. Every person I've heard argue it's fake had an axe to grind with Christianity.
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d001e3 No.836780
I haven’t looked too into the shroud but I have a question maybe you can all help me with.
If Jesus was wrapped in this clothe, why is his hair so free? Shouldn’t it also be wrapped around His face like the rest of the clothe? His goatee as well? It looks too perfect for a wrap. Didn’t they wrap the dead in a spiral motion back then? I’m not to familiar with the process.
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582ba6 No.836847
>>836593
>Supporting evidence is tenuous
the available evidence points to the legitimacy of the shroud of Turin. That's why the atheists and jews trying to disprove it have always had to rely on the tactic of cherrypicking data to support their irrational opinion.
>Occam's razor says to suppose it's fake.
nonsense. your atheist jew professor tells you to suppose it's fake.
>It wouldn't make any difference if it was real anyway besides being a neat artifact.
If that were true then the brainwashed hordes (you) wouldn't be so committed to convincing people that it's fake.
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159aee No.836880
>>836847
share this evidence with me without the belittling
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ececcb No.836883
>>836880
I was trying to find the original documentary done for the 1978 examination on YT to share with you, but I can't find it now. If you find it, it is the best place to start. From then on most documentaries focus on the carbon 14 dating which supposedly was accurate but now is seriously in question. It placed the shroud with a date in the middle ages. But they took samples from cloth that had been contaminated so that has basically been thrown out. Art history dates the shroud far earlier, and I think we have pushed at least close to the 500s ad because numerous depictions of Christ in Byzantine art carries peculiarities that are found only on the shroud. There are pollen grains in the shroud from plants only in the Holy Land, so we know that the shroud has indeed been to the Holy Land. Could go on and on as there is so much. Watch that original documentary from 1978, and check out shroud.com.
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ececcb No.836888
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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159aee No.836889
>>836888
will watch, thanks
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582ba6 No.836909
>>836880
you can just browse youtube. there are a bunch of videos there arguing both sides of the argument. if you really want to know then you should listen to the arguments of each side and then determine which sounds more compelling to you.
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159aee No.836916
>>836909
>you're a brainwashed Jew shill if you disagree with me
>yeah just browse youtube
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f8df8d No.836931
>>836585
Ever looked into the blood typing done on it?
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f8df8d No.836932
>>836579
Is there a way to repost that? seems like it would be very interesting.
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ececcb No.836952
>>836883
To add to the art history theory is the earliest icon of the Sinai Christ Pantocrator from the 6th century, which bears marks upon it that are found only upon the shroud as well. Pic related shows the overlay that they share. This is pretty impressive. Either someone created the icon in the 6th century working from the Shroud. Or someone forged the Shroud, which when you get into the details you will see just how difficult that would be. Especially considering the Shroud contains a 3D image.
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9e4244 No.837055
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582ba6 No.837140
>>836916
>>you're a brainwashed Jew shill if you disagree with me
the way you arrived at that from me saying "listen to both sides of the argument and decide for yourself" proves that you're a jew shill.
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159aee No.837166
>>837140
the two lines represent your two posts. keep up.
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143125 No.837181
>>836579
I'm open to being proven wrong, but I find it very compelling. It even convinced one of the secular investigators (a Jewish one at that) who worked on it.
https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=4G4sj8hUVaY
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9e4244 No.838981
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582ba6 No.838986
>>837166
what sucks is you'd have to write a script to filter out memeflags here.
https://shroud.com/
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582ba6 No.839188
>>836612
>is consistent with ancient burial techniques.
and was specifically stated in the bible.
>john 20:7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself.
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9e4244 No.840131
>>837181
>>836889
What is it about?
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000000 No.840431
>>836579
After retesting for carbon dating the cloth was created during the first century, pollen that was found on it was mainly localize to Israel, and most argument against it aren't substantial, so I'm pretty convinced that it isn't fake, but, is it Jesus's shroud? IDK
>>836583
Could have been a separate cloth around the shroud.
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9e4244 No.840841
I do have a question since the shroud is not in the same day Jesus died is it due to faulty tech or people at the top being dishonest?
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8ac197 No.841848
>>840431
Mind to give evidence?
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9e4244 No.844366
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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9e4244 No.849125
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19d191 No.849137
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23ad50 No.849702
100% real. don't believe the freemason funded (((scientists))) trying to DEBOOOONK. they are lying and don't want the truth to exist in this cia n!gger world.
here's proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2AdNTKcGnc
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23ad50 No.849703
>>849702
meant to post this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UisIxFV_M6M
(but my previous vid is also good)
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ccfa94 No.853458
>>836613
I'm the OP of that thread and that rag is what tricked me into becoming Catholic for a couple of years. Luckily I've always been skeptical so I've taken the time to study the Bible and have consequently come to the understanding that it has no credibility whatsoever and I've since stopped doing mental gymnastics. Yeah, even its apparent authenticity isn't enough to prove the Gospels, Adam & Eve, Noah's ark, Genesis 5, the Exodus, Joshua "stopping the sun", Balaam's talking donkey, etc. If there is a creator of the billions of solar systems and galaxies who has existed for over 13.77 billion years, he certainly does not concern himself so much with our insignificant little planet and us talking primates to the point where he'd ask jews to cut their penises and ask them to massacre screaming babies and children (1 Sam. 15:3) like a bloodthirsty war god. I'm now extremely anti-religion (kinda deist, believe in the supernatural and after-lives) since it keeps humanity more primitive than it already is.
I cannot wait for transhumanism, genetic engineering and artificial superintelligence/consciousness to help eradicate it to the horror of the last remaining primitive Jesus cultists who'll cry on their knees in protest screeching about "satanism" on the sidewalk of a Coruscant-like city with quivering lips holding their silly rosaries while octogenarians who look vicenarian and robots alike enjoy the freak show with a smirk before the freaks are escorted to a mental asylum for neurosurgery. The future of Jesus cultists is very bleak while that of humanity is bright, it's a death cult anyways so enjoy its martyrdom.
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6e7a94 No.853462
>>853458
Thanks for proving the shallowness of catholic sentimentalism
You seem like a rationalist (not mean pejoratively). What is your take on the apologetic arguments for christianity that move from establishing the necessary existence of a creator God, the historicity of Biblical events and it's miracles, and the authority of the authority of that bible as authenticated by miracles?
Which of these if any do you reject?
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ccfa94 No.853470
>>853462
>the necessary existence of a creator God
Creator God =/= Yahweh
You can philosophise all day long about God and attempt to prove his existence with logic yet you will still never get even close to proving the existence of Yahweh specifically. The only way you can argue for Yahweh's existence is with the Bible and every argument is inevitably circular and requires you to deny the mountains of issues with the writings themselves which renders it a very poor source of evidence.
>the historicity of Biblical events
They are as historical as Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. We know for an absolute fact thanks to DNA that we share common ancestry with other primates, even without DNA we have actual physical evidence of our species' evolution which is irreconcilable with biblical scripture. Genesis 1 is a complete lie no matter how you twist it, there is nothing of value in it, call it an allegory, poetry or whatever you want, the order of creation is completely wrong, it's a mess and that's just the first chapter. Genesis 5? Please read it out loud and try to keep a straight face looking at yourself in the mirror after each verse. Adam & Eve? Never happened. The Flood? Never happened. Noah's ark? Never happened. Tower of Babel? Never happened. The Exodus? Never happened. The talking donkey? Never happened. The walking on water? Never happened. The second coming? Never happened. Which historicity do you speak of?
>miracles
Not credible. The stories in the Gospels are the result of the telephone game which lasted over half a century after Jesus' death by his illiterate and ignorant 1st century cultists who spread all those stories and legends for several decades by word of mouth before some were selected and written down. All the alleged "fulfilled prophecies" are a farce when you consider that the writers were very familiar with the Old Testament's prophecies and present Jesus as completing them like a checklist. You cannot possibly believe that the writings are a credible piece of evidence to be taken seriously. I don't think that Christians are extremely guillible imbeciles incapable of doing any critical thinking, you believe in those fairy tales, Heaven, the New Jerusalem, the saviour, the prophets, the angels, the lamb, the dove, the fish, the donkey, etc. because you want it to be true and are afraid.
>the authority of the authority of that bible as authenticated by miracles
Nothing authenticates the Bible and I reject that "authority".
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6a327d No.853475
>>853470
>requires you to deny the mountains of issues with the writings themselves which renders it a very poor source of evidence.
You have not specified what issues render any of it a poor source of evidence. 1 Samuel 15:3 really did happen, so I don't see how that is a "issue with the writing(s) itself."
>even without DNA we have actual physical evidence of our species' evolution
What specifically are you referring to here?
>Not credible.
Look, the Bible said that only those that are of God will hear God's words. That means there will always be some who reject it, and that simply means they are not of God. How is that a proof therefore that the Bible is anything but spot on accurate?
>spread all those stories and legends for several decades by word of mouth before some were selected and written down.
How come you cannot or are not able to find a single real contradiction then. I like to think you would at least be able to point to some thing as the reason why, but it looks like it's just an attitude problem. How did you even find this place?
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ccfa94 No.853478
>>853475
>You have not specified what issues render any of it a poor source of evidence.
Read again and this time focus, it's okay if your lips move.
>1 Samuel 15:3 really did happen, so I don't see how that is a "issue with the writing(s) itself."
I never made this argument.
>What specifically are you referring to here?
Paleoanthropology along with molecular paleontology/biology.
>Look, the Bible said that only those that are of God will hear God's words. That means there will always be some who reject it, and that simply means they are not of God. How is that a proof therefore that the Bible is anything but spot on accurate?
This sounds like catechism for toddlers, very low effort buddy.
>How come you cannot or are not able to find a single real contradiction then
There are so many of them you could write a book! Not even the most educated Christian apologists deny every single contradiction, you're in for a rude awakening if you keep your mental gymnastics up and refuse to learn.
>it looks like it's just an attitude problem
Is this the level of Christian apologetics nowadays? Embarrassing.
>How did you even find this place?
It is irrelevant and I found it before you.
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6e7a94 No.853483
>>853470
Are you familiar with norman geisler? His twelve point system proves the truthfulness of the Christian religion.
Kalam or other logical arguments prove the existence of a God and at least some of his attributes. The genetic similarity of man with beast or plant does not prove darwinian evolution.
The rest of your post is just presupposing that the supernatural doesn't exist, which is untenable since the cosmos itself requires supernatural origin.
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ccfa94 No.853485
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>853483
>His twelve point system proves the truthfulness of the Christian religion.
They do not and if you wish to not humiliate yourself, do not ever present them in a serious real life debate.
>The genetic similarity of man with beast or plant does not prove darwinian evolution.
Wishing for evolution to be false does not change reality, my primate friend.
>presupposing that the supernatural doesn't exist
I believe in the supernatural, Iearn how to read, until then I won't be wasting anymore time with you.
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6e7a94 No.853486
>>853484
Geisler was an acclaimed apologist and academic.
Which step can you refute?
If you're a supernaturalist your criticisms of the historicity of biblical events that you just shared do not follow, because obviously the supernatural creator of the world could cause a flood of make a donkey talk.
What is your view then if not naturalist atheism? If you're not a theist can you refute Kalam?
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000000 No.853491
I think it's authentic, but what does it matter?
I wouldn't believe anything different if it was or was not.
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be35d7 No.853528
>>836593
Leibniz razor says otherwise fedora tipper.
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67aeeb No.855740
>>853458
Wow, you changed your tone a lot. Last time I read your thread on here you were talking about how good Jesus was and how you'll try and follow the seven virtues despite not being Catholic anymore. NGL your thread made me fall away too but I'm still stuck in an agnostic state because of a few things including the shroud. Either way if the world just continues to become more secular and technologies come to "disprove" God or Christianity I have investments that'll hopefully help me enjoy that future.
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26a911 No.855741
>>853458
Papists, it is obvious from this individual's post that he always held this atheistic worldview, even as a member of your church. It should sit ill with you that such a godless, faithless person could comfortably be one of you and consider himself a believer no less.
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2512f1 No.855783
No. Burials under supervision of the Sanhedrin always consisted of two seperate pieces of cloth by tradition. A large piece for the body and a small piece for the head/face. The smaller piece was no larger than a modern day hand-towel. The 'Shroud of Turin' was a single piece of large cloth.
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7defcd No.855803
>>853478
>Never heard of doctrinal development
LMAO
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ccfa94 No.856214
>>855741
>atheistic
>godless
God =/= Yahweh. I'm not an atheist, I believe in an eternal energy/force that is the source of our universe's and probably countless others' birth. I also believe that there are supernatural interdimensional beings that could be described as "gods" (yes, plural). I really don't care about others believing this though and I support militant atheists in their fight against religions because they are useful for my transhumanist interests.
>It should sit ill with you that such a godless, faithless person could comfortably be one of you and consider himself a believer no less.
It should sit ill with you that your death cult leader promised that the Apocalypse and Second Coming would happen in the same generation as that of his believers and martyrs who were tricked into getting slaughtered in his name. Keep waiting…(despite it being "the last hour" 2000 years ago), it cannot be a lie, right?!
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ccfa94 No.856215
>>855740
>you were talking about how good Jesus was and how you'll try and follow the seven virtues despite not being Catholic anymore
I've always been quite misanthropic because of the evils of humanity and so I tried to cling to Jesus because of the whole virtue vs sin thing and Jesus being this perfect person. Jesus as described in the Bible isn't real though, he is like Ryuho Okawa in Happy Science literature, or any other embellished/romanticised cult leader.
>the shroud
I used to be obsessed with it but I haven't researched/look at anything related to it since 2018. I will probably do so again in the future but it still could never trick me (nor should it trick you) into believing in Christianity ever again, not even Jesus appearing to me in person saying "it's all true", I'd call him a liar to his face because the Bible has no credibility whatsoever. Something supernatural could have happened to the shroud in the tomb, but it still does not legitimise the fairy tales. Would you become a faithful mormon if a ghost of Joseph Smith appeared to you and said "Mormonism is the true religion"? Would that really be enough? The shroud isn't either.
>Either way if the world just continues to become more secular and technologies come to "disprove" God or Christianity
Not sure about God but Christianity already has been. Now when it comes to technological and medical advancements, they will simply have people stray further and further away from primitive religions. Can you imagine still being Christian waiting for "the end of the world" while living elsewhere in the galaxy on a terraformed planet as a genetically engineered 200 year old human who looks 25 walking around a futuristic city with artificially conscious robots (perhaps even humanoid aliens)? Compare 1921 to 2021, now try to imagine the year 3000. The death of Abrahamism is inevitable, one day there will be zero faithful Christians and humanity will live on.
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6638ff No.856216
>>836780
My main problem with the shroud is the silence about it in scripture. None of the apostles mention anything like it when they went to check the empty tomb. They did detail several important points, such as the fact that the cloth that covered Jesus' face was folded next to the linen cloths. However, nowhere in the New Testament is there anything about a "miraculous" image of Jesus on the cloths that covered him. Furthermore, John's gospel makes it clear that Jesus was buried according to Jewish custom, and the Jews had the custom of cleaning the body thoroughly before burying it. Why is the body on the holy shroud so dirty, with blood still running down it?
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6638ff No.856217
>>853470
>We know for an absolute fact thanks to DNA that we share common ancestry with other primates
We know for an absolute fact thanks to DNA that we share common ancestry with bananas too.
>The Flood? Never happened.
We know for an absolute fact thanks to archeology that every culture has a identical global flood story. You need to admit that there was a flood, even if it was only local.
>All the alleged "fulfilled prophecies" are a farce when you consider that the writers were very familiar with the Old Testament's prophecies and present Jesus as completing them like a checklist.
Didn't know that Nebuchdenazzar, Cyrus, Alexander the Great, Caesar and every roman emperor and medieval monarch were very familiar with the Old Testament's prophecies to present themselves as completing Daniel's prophecies like a checklist. Also, you contradict yourself here. First the disciples are illiterate and ignorant 1st century cultist, then they are intellectuals that know from memory the Old Testament so they can forge Jesus.
Also, you are not the OP of the first thread. Go back to your circlejerk in r/atheism.
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ccfa94 No.856225
>>856216
>My main problem with the shroud is the silence about it in scripture. None of the apostles mention anything like it when they went to check the empty tomb.
It's because it's a holy relic, it was kept secret so it wouldn't be stolen.
>the Jews had the custom of cleaning the body thoroughly before burying it. Why is the body on the holy shroud so dirty, with blood still running down it?
It wasn't the cloth found in the tomb, Jesus could've been wrapped in it temporarily before the actual cleaning and burial. They noticed him imprinted on it, thought it was strange and kept it.
>>856217
>We know for an absolute fact thanks to DNA that we share common ancestry with bananas too.
You don't understand human genetics.
>We know for an absolute fact thanks to archeology that every culture has a identical global flood story.
The stories are absolutely not identical, have you read them? I could copy and paste them here and you would see how they are nothing alike.
>even if it was only local
The Bible does not describe it as local. The Flood, that is, the global Flood, described in the Bible along with Noah's ark is a complete fairy tale.
*I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.*
Genesis 6:17
*Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.*
Genesis 7:4
They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
Genesis 7:19
Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
Genesis 7:21-23
Not local whatsoever.
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ccfa94 No.856226
>>856216
>My main problem with the shroud is the silence about it in scripture. None of the apostles mention anything like it when they went to check the empty tomb.
It's because it's a holy relic, it was kept secret so it wouldn't be stolen.
>the Jews had the custom of cleaning the body thoroughly before burying it. Why is the body on the holy shroud so dirty, with blood still running down it?
It wasn't the cloth found in the tomb, Jesus could've been wrapped in it temporarily before the actual cleaning and burial. They noticed him imprinted on it, thought it was strange and kept it.
>>856217
>We know for an absolute fact thanks to DNA that we share common ancestry with bananas too.
You don't understand human genetics.
>We know for an absolute fact thanks to archeology that every culture has a identical global flood story.
The stories are absolutely not identical, have you read them? I could copy and paste them here and you would see how they are nothing alike.
>even if it was only local
The Bible does not describe it as local. The Flood, that is, the global Flood, described in the Bible along with Noah's ark is a complete fairy tale.
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
Genesis 6:17
Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.
Genesis 7:4
They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
Genesis 7:19
Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
Genesis 7:21-23
Not local whatsoever.
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ccfa94 No.856227
>>856217
>present themselves as completing Daniel's prophecies like a checklist
Except they didn't.
>First the disciples are illiterate and ignorant 1st century cultist
The believers (Apostles excluded), not the writers.
>you are not the OP of the first thread
I am, see the dates of my files here >>853458
and compare them to the later dates of when I posted them here >>836613
>Go back to your circlejerk in r/atheism.
I'm not an atheist and I don't discuss with atheists. I prefer r/UFOs and r/paranormal.
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6638ff No.856229
>>856227
>i prefer r/UFOs
Then you don't have the right to decide which information is more real than the other.
>You don't understand human genetics.
Neither do the geneticists then. The human genome was the only one to be completely mapped, which is why it checks well with primate ancestors, but at the same time with bananas, because neither primate ancestors nor bananas have their genomes completely mapped as well.
>The stories are absolutely not identical, have you read them?
Yes, I read it. God(s) get angry, flood happens, a tiny group led by a patriarch saves themselves by either getting into a wooden box or climbing a mountain. Everyone dies except them.
>The Bible does not describe it as local.
None of the myths describe it as local. The consensus is that it was local because a major revisionism in geology and anthropology would have to be done to fit a global flood in the middle.
>Except they didn't.
Ok buddy.
>The believers (Apostles excluded), not the writers.
Well, then the writers must have been bloody geniuses too, to write a story that didn't fit in at all with the literary style used to turn normal people into create great figures at the time (see Socrates), and yet manage to create a book so famous that it would endure to this day with minimal discrepancies despite attempts to have it banned and destroyed all over the world.
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ccfa94 No.856231
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>856229
>Then you don't have the right to decide which information is more real than the other.
UFOs are real, Biblical fairy tales aren't, I'm not the one deiciding this.
>Neither do the geneticists then.
You haven't listened to geneticists.
>either getting into a wooden box or climbing a mountain
Totally the same.
>The consensus is that it was local
Yet the Bible still doesn't describe it as such, "consensus" = mental gymnastics, reality = it didn't happen.
>Ok buddy.
Daniel's prophecies haven't been fulfilled, but whatever helps you sleep at night.
>to write a story that didn't fit in at all with the literary style
Yes, it was a novelty, no need to freak out, calm down.
>manage to create a book so famous that it would endure to this day
The only reason it endured to this day is because it appealed to the lowly masses of the 1st century who ate up all the lies and due to its popularity the roman government made it the official religion thus consolidating the cult and giving it legitimacy. When the Roman Empire dissolved, Christianity didn't go away and simply grew along with the cultures of the growing nations. It's not a mystery.
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6638ff No.856238
>>856231
>UFOs are real, Biblical fairy tales aren't
Lmao okay.
>"consensus" = mental gymnastics
You obviously don't know how archeology or paleonthology works.
>Daniel's prophecies haven't been fulfilled
Just the fact that Daniel warns not one, but two times about the destruction of Jerusalem and the profanation of a temple that wasn't even built at its time, is already one fulfilled prophecy that not even a brainlet can deny.
>The only reason it endured to this day is because it appealed to the lowly masses of the 1st century
A nice way to appeal to the masses of the first century is to create a bunch of arbitrary rules that forbid everything that is considered normal at the time, right?
>and due to its popularity the roman government made it the official religion
Not without first trying to wipe it off the face of the earth repeatedly, without having the slightest success.
>When the Roman Empire dissolved, Christianity didn't go away and simply grew along with the cultures of the growing nations.
And headed by the church that has done the most to prevent the spread of the Bible, forbidding its reading and destroying its copies in common language. But even so, it is today the easiest book to obtain, despite being the most destroyed book in history. Compare the Bible with any other book of its time, which people tried desperately to be preserved, and you have a mystery to solve.
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6638ff No.856239
>>856226
>It's because it's a holy relic, it was kept secret so it wouldn't be stolen.
I saw someone saying this before in this board, but I still don't belive it to be this case. They at least would say that there was a weird image on the cloth but won't say where the cloth was.
>It wasn't the cloth found in the tomb, Jesus could've been wrapped in it temporarily before the actual cleaning and burial.
So how was the image printed? As far as I have understood, the explanation of the image is that Jesus, when resurrected, emitted some kind of radiation. If the cloth is not the one he was wearing during the resurrection….
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18bdd0 No.856246
If it is really fake, then how comes nobody replicates it, and how comes nobody can explain how it was forged?
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18bdd0 No.856247
>>853458
God smites you for your disobedience and now you became a full Jew. Congratulations.
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ccfa94 No.856256
>>856238
>Lmao okay.
Are you saying all flying objects are identified? Do you really believe Joshua made the sun stand still for an entire day? (because you know, heliocentrism isn't real apparently)
>You obviously don't know how archeology or paleonthology works.
"no u" and in fact, you truly don't.
>Just the fact that Daniel warns not one, but two times about the destruction of Jerusalem and the profanation of a temple that wasn't even built at its time
This is all it takes to convince your little mind? Hilarious.
>arbitrary rules that forbid everything that is considered normal at the time
Such as? Let's hear it so you can embarrass yourself.
>Not without first trying to wipe it off the face of the earth repeatedly, without having the slightest success.
The same has been attempted with drugs, I guess drugs are gods then. I'm loving that cultist logic, another funny one is "the martyrs subjected themselves to so much abuse so it's proof Jesus is God".
>And headed by the church that has done the most to prevent the spread of the Bible, forbidding its reading and destroying its copies in common language. But even so, it is today the easiest book to obtain, despite being the most destroyed book in history. Compare the Bible with any other book of its time, which people tried desperately to be preserved, and you have a mystery to solve.
I don't see how your silly anti-Catholic protty rant is relevant to my point: Christianity being made official then growing along with the post-roman nations thus holding a central position in the culture which makes it hard to go away (stories, music, art, ceremonies, celebrations, festivities, etc.)
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ccfa94 No.856257
>>856239
>They at least would say that there was a weird image on the cloth but won't say where the cloth was.
Not necessarily, they could keep many things to themselves and they have.
>So how was the image printed?
In the OP post of my original thread I posted a link below "Shroud-like coloration of linen by nanosecond laser pulses in the vacuum ultraviolet" but it's dead, here's the link from that 2012 study conducted by ENEA (Italian Government-sponsored research and development agency):
http://www.frascati.enea.it/fis/lac/excimer/sindone/2012_16_ENEA.pdf
I also just found this recent study:
https://www.osapublishing.org/ao/abstract.cfm?uri=ao-58-9-2158
>>856246
The fact that it's real still doesn't give any credence to the Bible. Who knows, aliens could've scanned his body through the shroud prior to the burial preparation which imprinted the image.
>>856247
This one goes in the cringe compilation.
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5e9d87 No.856261
>>856257
>Who knows, aliens could've scanned his body through the shroud prior to the burial preparation which imprinted the image.
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ccfa94 No.856262
>>856261
mfw I read Genesis 5
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f6377b No.856264
>>856225
>what is hyperbole
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5e9d87 No.856265
>>856256
>This is all it takes to convince your little mind?
Nah, I'm only giving a simple example, also, nice job avoiding the question. Anyways, maybe it will be more credible to you if I say that an alien told Daniel about it. You don't belive in "muh fantasy" but still belive in sciencie fiction that is literally the same thing.
>The same has been attempted with drugs
Are you telling me that the Bible is as addictive as drugs, and was there a market behind early Christianity? You have the nerve to say something so stupid, I admit.
>I don't see how your silly anti-Catholic protty rant is relevant to my point
Your point is trying to refute mine here >>856229, and I wasn't talking about christianism, I was talking about the Bible. A lying book would not have propagated and preserved itself with such force despite adverse circumstances, and its writers would not have all ended up dead just for refusing to admit that they had lied. Hell, just look at what causal fires to cities and libraries have done to widely disseminated collections in Greek culture. The Odyssey could be completely wrong because we only have an extremely limited number of preserved copies. And I want to remind you, Greek culture held a central position in the Roman Empire as strong or stronger than Christianity would have later on. More importantly, a "fantasy book" would not cause so much irritation in all nations it has passed through, even more so a book that guides the citizen to respect the laws of the country, be gentle, etc.
>>856257
>Not necessarily, they could keep many things to themselves and they have.
That's just an assumption. But you still make a good point with the shroud, I admit that.
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5e9d87 No.856277
>>856256
>Such as? Let's hear it so you can embarrass yourself.
Oh yeah, forgot to reply this one. Let's start with sexual immorality, shall we? In both Rome and Greece, homosexuality and pederasty were seen as normal, because the view of gender was not "man vs. woman", but rather "active vs. passive". A Roman male citizen could easily have relations with other men as long as he was in the role of the active partner. Before Greece, in Mesopotamia there were roles in the cult of the gods where homosexuality also entered and was seen as something sacred. Then we get, out of nowhere, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
And we don't even need to talk about the orgies, prostitution, pornography and pedophilia, also widespread and normal (even if prostitution was considered something shameful to the prostitute).
And this was not even just with the pagans. For a Jew to be told that he should be a good servant of Rome and that the Mosaic laws were no longer in vogue was equally impactful, but that is exactly what Jesus and the apostles did. I am not surprised that the Jews were the ones who started persecuting the Christians before the Romans did.
Moving on from prohibitions, how about talking about how ridiculous the figure of Jesus was for that time? Someone being crucified in Jewish culture was seen as a curse, and in Roman culture, as a mockery. You have probably seen how the crucified looked, right? From his appearance of appearing to be riding a donkey, it is evident why in the Graffiti of Alexamenos Jesus is depicted with the head of a donkey. It was a totally repulsive way to die, unattractive to either the Jewish or Gentile world.
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143125 No.856280
>>856277
> It was a totally repulsive way to die, unattractive to either the Jewish or Gentile world.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." - 1 Cor 1:18
It's intended to be difficult by the world's standards. Furthermore, Paul was emphatic that Christians were children of Abraham, and called him the model of faith. Faith was never meant to be easy. Following the footsteps of Abraham is the most absurd thing to ask of someone. As Keirkegaard rightly pointed out, what Abraham did was completely absurd and against all reason (that is, in attempting to sacrifice Isaac). Yet this is the true nature of faith - not just for Abraham but for all Christians. Anyone trying to point out how absurd Christianity is just telling Christians what they already know. It's why Jesus also said, follow the narrow path. Most people are going to condemn themselves because they can't make the leap of faith required.
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5e9d87 No.856282
>>856280
>Anyone trying to point out how absurd Christianity is just telling Christians what they already know.
This. But I make an addendum, the Christian teaching goes through ages, and it turns out to be correct in the end. We all already know that pederasty today is an abomination, and how sexual degeneration can throw a person into a deadly vicious cycle of even more degeneration. Before, Christians knew this but didn't have an explanation why, today, with the advance of science, we already know why.
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7defcd No.856303
>>856257
This nigga talking about allens or ayy lmao but ditches the bible.
There is more historical evidence for Jesus alone and that being enough to prove Christianity than freaking allens bro.
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d5da57 No.856304
You have the inspired word of God that He gave to us, but you turn away, as Paul says, "they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
And why? Because it doesn't condemn your modern lifestyle. It doesn't judge you, it doesn't tell you to amend your ways or not to sin. It's just oh wow look at that cloth. You people have laid aside the commandment of God and are fully turned aside unto fables. You ought to be ashamed to even post as Christians on this board, seeing how you have no light in you, and by spreading this here at this time, are leading people away from the light of God's word and into the darkness of barbaric and primitive superstition - like something that a profane witch might be dabbling in, which is exactly what vain idolators of this world often do - rather than the words of God, which are life itself (John 6:63) according to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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5e9d87 No.856311
>>856303
He also assumes things that would make the strangest text in the Bible completely viable by comparison. I mean, he suggested that between the time they removed Jesus from the cross and prepared his body, aliens came down and examined Jesus' body for no specific reason while the apostles had their backs turned, and when it came time to prepare the body, no one noticed that there was an image printed on the cloth. But I think I already know where this Anon is getting his information from, it is from that science fiction book series, Operación Caballo de Troya, about a time traveler who meets Jesus and discovers that all his miracles were actually aliens. And that all the apostles were functionally illiterate or deaf.
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67aeeb No.856576
>>855740
>>856215
I've changed my mind in the past few weeks and feel myself returning to belief. I'm not sure if I should call myself Christian yet but I feel like I'm 95% there. I have a question for you: Have you ever heard of Joe Nickell's claims about the Shroud? Here's three reasons he says it's a forgery:
>One of Nickell's many objections to the Shroud's authenticity is the proportions of the figure's face and body. Both are consistent with the proportions used by Gothic artists of the period and are not those of an actual person.
>He commented on the fact that the shroud has no imprint at the top of the head in his book, "This 'blank space' between the otherwise head-to-head imprints argues for forgery…"
>He points out in his book that the right foot is shown FLAT against the shroud, although the imprint of the entire leg is shown, which is seemingly anatomically impossible [the knee would have to be raised for the foot to be flat].(Pg. 65)
What would be your response? I'm asking since you don't have an axe to grind on this subject and you're still convinced of its authenticity despite not believing anymore.
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67aeeb No.856577
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>853470
>the order of creation is completely wrong, it's a mess and that's just the first chapter.
Have you ever heard of the function view of Genesis 1?
>The Flood? Never happened. Noah's ark? Never happened. Tower of Babel? Never happened.
Inspiring Philosophy has videos on these subjects and they're very convincing. One thing that stuck was the simplicity of the text about the Flood indicating that they weren't just copying the local cultures flood legends but were describing actual events.
>The second coming?
>>856214
>the Apocalypse and Second Coming would happen in the same generation as that of his believers and martyrs
The preterist view is the correct take on the Olivet Discourse (see the video). It's also possible that Revelation correctly predicted 1000 years into the future if we go by the preterist interpretation of Revelation 20.
https://www.revelationrevolution.org/revelation-20-a-preterist-commentary/
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0538af No.857149
>>856576
>>856577
Alright I want to correct myself on some things. First, I completely disagree with Joe Nickell's and am fully convinced that the Shroud of Turin is authentic. Second, 70 AD wasn't the final coming but a prefigurement of the final coming at the end of the world. The article I linked explains well but as a Traditional Catholic I don't endorse Scott Hahn or the 1992 'catechism' completely. The preterist website has some heresies in it so I also don't endorse the whole website.
https://catholicstrength.com/tag/dr-scott-hahn-identifies-three-true-parousia-of-Jesus-christ/
Highly recommended YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK35FbBBtJnYsJXHKygrV8A/videos?view=0&sort=p&flow=grid
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0538af No.857180
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>856577
I also should add that this video says in the title "Holy Mass ended in 70 AD" which is completely wrong and a heresy. Obviously nobody should believe that. The Mass continues to this day.
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0538af No.857307
>>856577
I now recant having linked to this website. There is better sources for preterism that don't include heresies. I was glad when I found out that preterism originated from Catholics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_del_Alc%C3%A1zar
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892d4e No.857356
>>853458
The watchers modified humanity with transhumanism in the early days, mixing up mankind genetics with other species (the ghost people of Africa that make up 20% of Africans dna, the neanderthalis of Europe and asia that makes up 1-6%, the dens that are 1-3% in Asians)
The last time that happened god promised he wouldn’t cleanse the earth in water anymore. He will keep his promise. He will not use water but instead fire to cleanse our planet
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892d4e No.857357
>>853470
Genesis was metaphorical you silly goose
God makes explosion (big bang), then god makes the water (4D plasma soup), then he separates the land from the water (planets forming out of the cooling soup), then he makes fish and animals then finally humans.
An all powerful being was talking to his favorite little guy on the mountain (like someone talking to their favorite sim in a game)
Moses can’t see all of creation, the stars the germs the quarks.
How could Moses have known that 68% of the universe is black holes? Devoid of light beyond his vision, garbage collectors ripping matter apart into a singularity and then growing larger pushing the universe around it?
God programmed it, as well as me and you silly billy, so he had to dumb down the concepts which is where the Books of Moses come from. It’s a large parable just like he gave us in the New Testament, God is really good at parables, he’s the best!
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892d4e No.857358
>>855783
There is a second cloth that was with it that was smaller only on his face that matches…. You know that right?
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