No.13919
how does Asatru, the religion, describe the ultimate Reality, the highest metaphysical truth and the path to liberation/salvation for man, the purpose of life, the origin of evil/suffering? I don't mean your opinion on the matter, but the actual authoritative, religious position of Asatru.
If you can compare it to a big-world religion which would it be?
____________________________
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No.13921
These questions were invented to compliment "answers" that somebody else dreamed up prior. Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe.
>the actual authoritative, religious position of Asatru
It's an ethnoreligion, we care not for these things.
>white mudslime
Be gone.
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No.13922
>>13921
>we don't like these questions
these questions are fundamental to human nature; every civilization asks them to some degree, from asians to semites and yes especially europeans (go read the Greeks).
the only people that *might not* ask such questions are Africans with 85 IQ with no sense of wonder at existence.
>It's an ethnoreligion, we care not for these things.
But if this ethnoreligion doesn't address these existential questions then it's no wonder it was supplanted by Christianity.
>Be gone
meh, hopefully there's more to Asatru than growing a beard, farming and hating people who look different
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No.13923
>>13922
>and hating people who loom different
FUCK OFF LIBSHIT
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No.13926
>>13922
>hopefully there's more to Asatru than growing a beard, farming and hating people who look different
tbh you have nazi occultism, hippie weareonewiththeallnatureandloveandshit wiccaism and maybe some interesting individuals (or weirdo gurus preaching a questionable message) who may or may not borrow from hindus or hellenics besides more focussed groups which are mostly drowned out by the mass of other people who are as you described them.
Sounds mean, but its all what I saw yet on the net.
Well, if you define it as an ethnoreligion though then you can boil it down by looking at the ethnoreligions of people who have an unbroken line of worship-such as mongol nomads, Mari-el, georgian mountainfarmers and various african folks or indochinese jungledwellers.
Its the belief that people can meddle with spirits/eternal beings or ascended ancestors their group/bloodline is familliar with because they meddled with them since a very long time already which has created a longlasting relation which means you are indebted to each other. They may aid your life in ways connected to your groups way of life (muh fertility for the faithful) , serve as a community focal point, or simply are expected to be there for you in the afterlife whose properties are unknown and thus feared. Having someone to speak/care for you there cant be that bad yknow? Abrahamics have protector angels btw which fill the same role with the difference of them having a passive influence by just being a witness in your favour in the face of god's judgement-so this clinging to the smaller, personalised powers is archaic but not outdated as even the monotheists of this day cant really abstain from it.
Which brings us to syncreticism. There are a good bunch of henotheist movements in history where people acknowledged the power of God/Theonlytruetruth in whatever way it was theologically laid out with all those obligations and soothing calls for purpose while keeping their local gods as angels/subdeities. See Manicheans, the Nat-worshippers of Burma, or medieval catholics not praying to god but asking some obscure saint to ask god to make it rain more often because only the veneration of that specific saint can ask god the most effective way.
(Hindus who have been cornered by monotheist theology often use weirdass circumvention to keep their minor reflection of god/local deity too.)
>Comparison to a big world religion
In late antiquitiy, the romans and greeks had developed quiet intricate theology to supplant the simple worship of spirits. Still splintered in many sects who agreed to disagree-platonists, stoics, pytharogeans and many more-reading de natura deorum sheds more light on this-whose general common denominator sounds exatly as a western version of hinduism and its manyfold truths and henotheism.
(You even have reincarnation as platonist soultravel-something the "muslims" druze and alawits adapted.)
The germanic religion was closest in distance to the romans who developed western indoeuropean polytheism the furthest-which is similar to hinduism-so the closest worldreligion to asatru would be some indian tradition.
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No.13927
To summarize:
>ultimate reality
Too big for our mortal brain to understand-except for wild speculation.
Ask a scienteist or try to deduct a bit of what is truth which is complicated enough.
The jews needed Yaweh to appear as a burning bush, muhammed the apparition of Gabriel, the bhudda just sat under a tree-but he was some kind of mythical demihuman like jesus and whatever they did-if you believe their teachings-caused so much butthurt to the forces responsible for suffering that they got visited by powerful demons to prevent them from reaching the conclusions they teached later on.
If the most pristine founders of religion needed contact or were shaped by it with deities/angels/demons eternal invisible things with an own will then we cant really be so arrogant to think we could find truth like they did all alone.
What we can do however, is so bold to reject their messenger in particular or be indifferent about it. If christians say the gabriel of muhammad was a demon and muslims say christians have been deceived by sheitan to believe the trinity then you may become rightfully confused about whom of the two you should trust and turn to the apparitions which gave meaning your ancestors and might be inclined to give something to you if you manage to renew the relation that once was.
>origin of evil
Its polytheism, it aint gonna explain such stuff more interestingly then saying there are a multitude of satan like beings who fucked shit up (germanic incatations ask gods to remove illnesses personified as "worms" for example, also Jothuns are cunts by default), or simply that we should be grateful for the mixed life experience we get in the first place. Hell, I think some shintos believe that some bigbang like event created 6gorillion gods on the spot who are just as clueless as you safe for the fact that their collective effort kits reality together as it is. They have a job, you have a job, have fun with this existence, the sunrise and your bloodcancer.
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No.13928
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>origin of evil
There's a Varg for that.
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No.13929
>>13922
The questions are loaded, begging for an answer that somebody else already thought up. I don't answer fake questions, but I'll point out what's wrong with them.
>ultimate Reality
Assumes egalitarianism. Assumes the world you see now is insufficient for whatever need you have in your head.
>path to liberation/salvation for man
Assumes inferiority of humans, assumes humanity is insufficient (for what?).
>the origin of evil/suffering
Assumes natural state of no suffering or evil, or the idea that this is so strange that it needs it's own separate explanation independent of everything else.
>the actual authoritative, religious position of Asatru
Assumes a certain organizational structure.
Your questions really are shit. Learn to ask some better ones, then come back here.
>hating people who look different
And then there's this. They always end up showing their true colors in the end, don't they?
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No.13930
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No.13931
>>13929
>ultimate reality
>assumes egalitarianism
No it assumes ontological and even social hierarchy.
>path to liberation
>assumes human inferiority
No. Assumes humans who haven't realized their full potential and highest good.
Rest of your post is similar gibberish that doesn't understand basic English words.
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No.13932
>>13929
>no centralized teachings or authority or ideology or scripture or foundation or objectivity
So its subjective nostalgia.
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No.13933
>>13931
>>13932
>he's still here
Your questions are shit and I told you why. We don't owe you a debate. Go tip your fedora somewhere else, I hear /christian/ and /islam/ like fellating themselves over how many angels can dance on a pinhead.
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No.13934
>>13927
Is asatru actually polytheistic? Usually that's a sign of degeneracy, once a religion has decayed over time and taken over by superstitious plebs it loses sight of 'the One'…like what happened to the Greek/roman religions
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No.13935
>>13934
>Implying monotheism is the natural state of European man.
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No.13936
>>13934
>looses sight of the one
That is not what happened to the romans as they were polytheists from the beginning on. Ofc you can believe the muslims who say that every culture on earth used to pray to Allah once but no proofs whatsoever have ever been found for that besides the claims in the books advocating for monotheism themselve.
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No.13937
>>13935
The fuck can we know about our "natural state" tho? You could say the same about living in caves.
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No.13938
>>13936
the well-educated Greek philosophers were monotheists, the commoners and plebs were polytheists and even they formed some idea of a supreme God who ruled over all the lesser "gods"
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No.13940
>>13938
A few but not all and those who were monotheist did not always thought of him as a personal god. You had a lot of henotheist tendencys though, we are not outrightly opposed to these-albeit nothing is really uniform either if you look at asatru sadly. Maybe it needs more time.
Even Socrates acknowledged Appollos oracle by making it clear that the deity could not lie thus entertaining its existence despite his agnosticism.
If you look to the romans you can hardly call Cicero and the philosophers whose points he described in the de natura uneducated.
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No.13941
>>13938
They were not monotheists. Their concept of the creator god was hardly a god at all, rather a force of nature like the Dao (they used the gender neutral case when discussing it and never described it in any human term). And its existence did not contradict any other god, but usually included them.
Much later on, Yahweh's followers decided all that fancy Greek reasoning behind their "Whole" would look good on Yahweh's resume, so they slapped it on there and pretended like it was their own. Every Jew knows it's better to lie big than to lie small.
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No.13942
>>13938
Neo-Platonism had a supreme god but it was in no monotheistic (Emperor Julian did nothing wrong). The Greeks and Romans executed monotheists for their atheism man.
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No.13954
>>13942
>executed monotheists
Depends on about what time we are talking.
The polytheists in the ancient greece citystates were rather dogmatic and fucked up philosophers if they were too disruptive to the public order.
The romans didnt care about monotheism as evidenced by them tolerating the jews to the same degree as other imperial subjects but they got mad if you did not sacrifiece tot he emperor and at least pretended he would be a halfgod which is why monotheist Mithraists did not get as persecuted in the same way the christians and the polytheist pythagoreans were:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/12005864/Secret-pagan-basilica-in-Rome-emerges-from-the-shadows-after-2000-years.html
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No.13959
>>13942
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophanes#Theology
Socrates, Plato, Zeno, Parmenides, Anaxagoras, etc all essentially monotheistic who believed in One God, while they talked about the lesser 'gods' as fables and metaphors.
>Neo-Platonism had a supreme god but it was in no monotheistic
Neo-platonism is monotheist, there is only one God and it is Supreme and everything is an emanation of it.
>they killed monotheists
yes they killed the educated philosophers who told the youth their polytheism is just a metaphor/fable and there can only be One God.
roman rulers were usually dumb/violent/decadent and wanted to maintain the status quo
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No.13962
>>13959
"The gods have proclaimed Christ to have been most pious, but the Christians are a confused and vicious sect."
t. "monotheist" neoplatonist Porphyry
You cant just brush over such a diverse philosophical school as platonism with different branches to fit your narrative of dumb pagan tyrants vs learned monotheist scholars.
I did not read up enough about emanations yet, are human souls emanations too after the majority of the platonists teachings? If that holds true there is a lot of room for greater self concious deities/emantions being between god and man and why should it be sinful to approach those who have been emanated too as us by prayer and idolatry?
Concerning the old greeks, what is "essentially" monotheisthic may still be quiet different from the modern monotheism with a personal creatorgod. Henotheisthic middlesteps, or deism were frequent, you took Anaxagoras as a sample, it seems like the Nous or source of all thinking wasnt described as something personal that would act on it.
https://books.google.de/books?id=Sq0BLd1HbUwC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=anaxagoras+impersonal+god&source=bl&ots=PK47gZmzCd&sig=ydHsF93__GA1-DS6i2kT4dX3Yto&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjW5a-s35zSAhXKEiwKHdAiA9AQ6AEIJzAB#v=onepage&q=anaxagoras%20impersonal%20god&f=false
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No.13971
>>13959
>there is only one God and it is Supreme and everything is an emanation of it
Sounds more like a branch of Hinduism.
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No.13972
>>13971
Late roman Hellenism as practised by the philosophers was basically a form of independently developed Hinduism.
The exact same justification to use idols.
The million gods that can be folded into one.
Also reincarnation and playdoyers for vegetarianism.
It would be quiet interesting to see what modern hindus think when they read the greek and roman works, the common indoeuropean root seems to lead to the same conclusions given enough time.
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No.13979
>>13919
>white mudslime
Spoiler that shit.
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No.13981
>>13971
ya essentially all religions boil down to some form of monotheism, at the higher levels, or monism.
pleb hindus believe ganesh and vishnu are literal separate Gods, like Thor and Apollo….while the learned Hindus know they are just metaphors for aspects of the One God (brahman) or alternatively they are just illusions, part of Maya and only imbeciles take them seriously.
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No.13982
>>13981
Why do you continuinly bash the poytheist/henotheist position by just assuming its more learned out of nowwhere while not responding to the cases where quiet learned individuals or schools of thought disagree with monotheism?
Both positions had some quiet pristine defenders, the monotheists are simply there in higher numbers as their political ambition combined with religion is more effective and swiped the foreign thought under the carpet afterwards with less people growing up to even entertain it.
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No.13990
>>13982
The monotheist position is such nonsense that they have to talk themselves up to such an absurd degree pretty much 24/7. All monotheism is is just the liberal bullshit of yesteryear, trying to wash away the true soul of a man and replace it with the abstract and generic.
The "scholars" of monotheism were just the toadies for a system, trying to deracinate their subjects so they could be ruled more effectively from afar. And so, in the grand tradition, the great "scholars" of today further preach atheism (monotheism -1), which serves an even greater and more expansive system, requiring even more sheep-like behavior from the masses. Naturally, the old holdouts are again in the heaths.
Also keep in mind who you're talking to. OP started this thread with total dishonesty, I don't know why you're expecting more from him now.
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No.13991
>>13990
Him grasping for vague calls to ill defined authority to support him along the needless ad hominems makes it clear that he started this thread in a very dishonest way.
Albeit I continue this because some of the points might be interesting for lurkers.
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No.13992
I disagree tho with monos being always liberals, putting them all in the same box does not serve them justice, even if you exclude the few oddball mystics for the sake of simplicity.
While they are universalistic, the consequences for not wanting to be included were often dire once they got hold of the power that was used against them before, while a poly or henotheist worldview is often localised with its dogmas and leaves a lot of room for differently structured communities coexisting.
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No.13997
>>13982
Polytheism is where religions go to die
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No.13998
>>13992
>the consequences for not wanting to be included were often dire once they got hold of the power
And that's different from the modern libshit how?
>>13997
>if I keep saying it, maybe those volkish heathens will join me in worshipping my mud god
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No.14002
>>13998
Modern libshits get their power from guilttripping on your weaknesses and are ultimately to be replaced by some more ballsy adversary or simply falter when you stop giving a shit as seen in america. Liberal Tumblrland is not sustainable, oldschool commis or 600AD arabs however are universalist as in everyone can have their salvation but you get fucked up in a much more direct blade-meets-skull way if you dare to decline it.
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No.14086
There's no way of knowing these more esoteric of ideas in the eyes of ancient Celto-Germanic people, as there is so little evidence due to oral tradition rather than scripture, and the absence of an organized religion that codifies everything.
>liberation/salvation
Pure Semitic thought, there is nothing to be 'saved' from.
>purpose of life
Live in accordance to the ways of your folk, seek out glory for your name, honour your kindred and the Gods, die nobly. That's what I'd imagine the ancients would say; they lived very tough lives, so unlike more decadent peoples they wouldn't have the time to waste thinking about 'purpose' - true purpose is derived from an absence of contemplating it.
>evil
Morality ultimately derives from evolutionary methods of collectively surviving in a tribe. 'Good' is what helps you as well as your kin, 'Bad' is what harms you and your kin. Simple. Semites don't like pork IIRC because it had some kind of disease or something in the Middle East. They wouldn't know this but through instinct they'd be able to tell you right from wrong.
>If you can compare it to a big-world religion which would it be?
Hinduism.
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No.14087
>>14086
so materialist hedonism mixed with some chinese style ancestor worship
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No.14088
>>14087
Hedonism implies some kind of perverse extremity of seeking sensual pleasure. No, spiritualism in the ancient world before Semitic Monotheism is about life itself - not hoping to recline in a degenerate, truly hedonistic afterworld of Jannah after a life of supplication.
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No.14089
>>14088
The life after death in European Paganism is typically neutral in Hel or Hades or if you have achieved great renown and honour you ascend to Elysium or Valhalla, etc.
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No.14092
>>14089
Hel = oblivion, or being forgotten because you didn't leave a legacy. It's cold and dark and you sleep forever aka a grave. Valhalla = immortality or life after death because people remember you and your posterity venerates you. This is my theory at least.
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No.14113
>>14088
>Hedonism implies some kind of perverse extremity of seeking sensual pleasure.
No, it really doesn't. Hedonism has been used as scapegoat by (((Christians))) the same way paganism or nihilism or more recently nationalism has.
Read the principal doctrines of Epicurus and tell me that it's not a very reasonable approach at life
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No.14119
>>14092
>>14092
>>14092
Here's another theory.
Hel = neutral afterlife, where you rejoin your family and your ancestors. the preferable outcome, since family is very important in this life as well as in the afterlife
Valhalla = some sort of consolation prize for the men that died far away from ancestral land, disconnected from family
If you're truly interested in the way the old germanic people viewed death and the afterlife I strongly recommend "The Road to Hel" by H.R. Ellis Davidson. It's an academic study that takes into account archaeological sources as well as literature.
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No.14120
>>14119
This seems very reasonable.
Is that book in the torrent?
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No.14126
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No.14137
>>13959
Socrates was a Jew. No surprise that him and his followers promoted monotheism.
www.renegadetribune.com/socrates-jew/
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