No.593
What are the Christian theological implications of that the mightiest of Eru's children was a huge fuck up who ruined everything for everyone forever because he wanted to be free? Talking about Feänor here, Melkor can go sit in the timeout corner.
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No.597
>>593
TOLKIEN DIDN'T LIKE ANALOGIES
STOP
CEASE AND DESIST
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No.598
>>593
Yo fuck you, Fëanor did nothing wrong.
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No.602
>>597
It's not analogy. But clearly something Christian is up with all Noldos getting cursed for refusing to stay in the dollhouse of Aman.
>>598
Not getting his balls back was bad.
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No.603
>>597
There's no denying that tolkien's devout catholicism had some influences on his work
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No.610
>>602
The rejection of paradise isn't a feature unique only to Christian myth.
Furthermore, what caused the Doom wasn't the Noldor telling the Valar to piss off, that was what specifically lead to the banishment of Fëanor and his sons. What lead to the Doom was the kinslaying at Aqualondë
But >>598 is right anyway, Fëanor did absolutely nothing wrong.
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No.612
>>610
>What lead to the Doom was the kinslaying at Aqualondë
Not all of them were part of it, but still they get fucked by the Doom (Curse) of Mandos even when not fiddling with Silmarils.
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No.615
>>612
Because they held the path instead of repenting.
Fingolfin was a proud leader, he would not abandon the ones siding with Fëanor and even not counting that, Morgoth had done harm to his kin. People forget that Fëanor and Fingolfin for good or ill were brothers and they were more alike than either cared to admit.
Proud, great warriors, wise. Fingolfin simply had a bit more stoicism to him.
Finarfin was the pussy cunt. Even his son had more balls. Fucking faggot.
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No.616
>>615
>Because they held the path instead of repenting.
This is what I find weird. How was that fair and just from the Valar? When they end up waiting until the "Doom of Fëanor runs its course" before intervening, they really seem like stuck up pricks still mad that Fëanor wouldn't have given them the jewels even if he had had them. The excuse that their intervention would break the world doesn't hold when the Elves were so close to victory at few points and wouldn't have needed that much help.
>Finarfin was the pussy cunt.
I like the part where he gets to be the King of all Noldor who stayed. All the cowardly prancing homos. Must been atleast three of them.
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No.617
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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No.620
>>616
Because ultimately the Valar were kind of dicks even if they were just. I think Tolkien did insert a bit of failure and wrong decisions into them to make it clear as powerful as they were, they were our elders, not our masters. Only Eru is above us in that sense.
Although Fingolfin and those that followed him show have walked away when Fëanor killed the Teleri at Aqualondë. He was absolutely right about everything UP UNTIL the kinslaying.
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No.621
>>620
I guess the story required that the Valar didn't just fix everything in their divine wisdom. Though I would have liked if their fallibility was highlighted more. Manwë is unbelievably boring for a Indo-European sky daddy expy.
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No.622
>>621
I like how pants on head retarded he was in regards to Morgoth. Even Ulmo and Tulkas warned him.
Fucking Tulkas, the guy that's as retarded as a god can be, saw the betrayal coming.
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No.624
>>622
Nigga was retard strong. Didn't even use any of his powers to create/shape Arda so it all went into his swollness. I mean, the son of a bitch greco-roman wrestled Morgoth to the ground and made him his bitch.
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No.629
>>624
Tulkas, Ulmo and Aulë are the best Valar.
Ulmo especially. He has not a single fuck left. Valar abandon the Noldor? He proceeds the engineer their salvation. Because fuck my peers, they're faggots anyway.
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No.637
relax with the 'IT'S NOT AN ALLEGORY REEEEE" stuff. Tolkien didn't mind people finding and discussing inner meanings in his work, he just admitted to never putting any in it deliberately.
And everything based in ME besides The Hobbit and LOTR was published after his death, so it's effectively unfinished. Nat saying anything, just keep it in mind.
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No.702
>>637
>relax with the 'IT'S NOT AN ALLEGORY REEEEE" stuff.
The problem is that "intellectuals" INSIST that "it's totally this thing I'm saying it is", which usually is fucking shit interpretations about muh World War toooo
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No.705
>>637
It quite isn't allegory if Eru literally is God of Abraham.
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No.824
ha-satan in hebrew: 'the adversary, the enemy'
morgoth in sindarin: 'dark enemy'
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No.825
>>705
But Arda was made by singing not by speaking it into…
Hang on a sec
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No.891
Feanor was, just like Melkor, driven by pride and vanity. Thus, Melkor found it very easy to seduce him to the dark side….
Yeah yeah, I know, mixed metaphor or whatever…
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No.897
>>825
You know, Tolkien wasn't a fundamentalist that believed Genesis literally happened. Well, as far as I know. Ainulindale is what the fictional Elves thought about Creation inside Tolkien's sub-creation.
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No.900
>>897
I'm pretty sure that it's literally cannon that Eä was sung into being. All the stuff you hear about the Ainulindalë is things the Valar told the high elves that came east following Fëanor (who did nothing wrong).
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No.957
>>616
I like the idea of Finarfin spending eternity wondering What Might Have Been.
JRRT doubtlessly would have written him as the smarter son of Finwë, (and Galadriel probably defends him condescendingly) but I like to think he would have had the presence of mind to make him hesitate anxiously when one of his own sons asks him what he did to protect the glory of the Noldor.
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No.958
>>621
>Manwë is unbelievably boring for a Indo-European sky daddy expy.
I have the opposite reaction. I though it was amazingly entertaining how Manwë absolutely could not grasp that Melkor was anything but misunderstood. I echoes Odin giving Loki so many "second chances" because he honestly thinks the best of everybody (or at least in some versions he does.)
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No.959
>>629
the text says the only bit of the Music of creation still hearable to us mortals is in the sound of water. Ulmo is Mankind's best bro for life.
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No.960
>>891
It's worth pointing out: even though he hated Melkor most of all, it was Melkor's words that made Fëanor hate the Valar in the first place. He did not consciously side with the enemy, and justified all he did as being done to spite that enemy, and yet he was still seduced to causing mayhem and misery with such actions.
Not an allegory, sure. But boy are there lessons to take to heart within those books.
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No.965
>>957
Finarfin was truly the shittiest of the brothers. There's hating on Fëanor for what he did to the Teleri and there's backing out like a coward.
I never understood why Tolkien would write him as being rewarded, and even given command of the Noldor that fought in the War of Wrath. He did nothing to deserve it. If anything have Finrod be the one leading, since we know he came back in short order like Glorfindel.
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No.968
>>965
>I never understood why Tolkien would write him as being rewarded
Tolkien did experience a war that started as a patriotic adventure overseas and ended with hell for most participants. I imagine he had a mixed feelings about the "Daddy, what did you do during the Great War?" guilt propaganda allusioned in >>957
>and even given command of the Noldor that fought in the War of Wrath
He was the King. And I guess the guy longing for peace from the beginning is a good option to fight a war to end fighting, bravery and skill as a strategist not withstanding.
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No.973
>>965
>and even given command of the Noldor that fought in the War of Wrath.
It's just as >>968 puts it; Finarfin is the king. Finrod was re-embodied, yeah, but when that happens it isn't just a get-out-of-hades-free card. The re-embodied are DONE with life. As much as Felagund kicks ass, I would be surprised if he was even involved with the War of Wrath.
Also, the War of Wrath is literally like, two paragraphs long. We aren't given a fraction of the whole story, and it my mind, Finarfin's contribution partially redeems him from having chickened out. In the end, the last son of Finwë was the Noldor Trump Card (though hugely overshadowed by the valar in their war-forms.)
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No.1008
Feänor's sin was the classic failing of Creation - that of Pride. His Pride consumed him and predisposed he and his kin to Vanity, as his and his sons' suicide quest for the Jewels would demonstrate time and time again through the closing centuries of the First Age. The eternal lust for the Silmarils consumed the Noldor and dammed their chances of victory in Beleriand as they shunned/warred ally and enemy alike to fulfill their dread Oath.
All roots from Feänor and his Pride. His desire to be the greatest craftsman in all Arda and his lust for his own creation consumed him as assuredly as the Balrog's flame, damming his kin until the End of Days. The Doom was merely a reflection of Morgoth's successful corruption of the Noldo. First willing to take up sword against their race, then willing to take up sword against their own - until naught but two cursed elves remained, burned by the Silmarils for their Pride and what lengths that Pride forced them to go.
The story of Feänor and the Noldor is one of the most inspiring Judeo-Christian indictments against the sin of Pride in the modern era, and all the more that people don't realize how much Feänor's Oath destroyed Arda. Had the Noldor stayed behind and let the Valar handle Morgoth, Telperion and Laurelin would've been restored before the end of the First Age. The Pride of Feänor and his sons, their lust for the Jewels, preempted that until the End.
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No.1044
>>1008
It isn't as simple as just full blown Christian sin of Pride.
To destroy the Jewels as well would be a sin. Tolkien wove in more pagan themes than perhaps even he realized. What was made and what was earthen has value in of itself, and it isn't a simple case of the mortal world being shit by default (because of the marring).
The Silmarils were precious in the same way the Trees were precious, as a unique demonstration of subcreation within the larger creation. Neither had more value than the other. The Valar understood this, that's why they didn't force Fëanor's hand. Aulë especially was empathic towards Fëanor as a fellow subcreator that sometimes skirts the lines of disrespecting creation by not acting within it's bounds.
Sure Fëanor acted rashly and ultimately attacked the Teleri unjustly, but the Valar were not 100% right. More importantly, had Fëanor not done what he did, we would not have seen seen and heard of many beautiful things. Of Gondolin rising on Tumladen, of the hidden halls of Nargothrond, we'd not have seen the love of Beren and Lúthien, the great last stand of Finrod, the bravery of Húrin at the Fens of Serech.
The book itself states this. It's a very pagan thing, the glorification great deeds as having value unto themselves, not necessarily in the grand scheme of things, or if they were successful or not.
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No.1144
>>957
>feanor_as_patton.jpg
I can guarantee you this, and you may thank Eru for it. Twenty ages from now, when you're sitting by the fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks 'what did you do during the great war of the jewels?' You won't have to say 'well, I shoveled shit in Tirion.'
Alright you sons of bitches, now you know how I feel.
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No.1145
>>1044
>the glorification great deeds as having value unto themselves
That's not uniquely pagan
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No.1155
All the evil caused by the Noldor had the side-effect of giving us Beren & Luthien, and Tuor & Idril. Just as Fëanor says when he's leaving Aman, if we do evil, and if strife comes of it, than the strife will be well-bought, and the evil will be "good to have been." It's an excellent story because Tolkien doesn't preach about it, but leaves it up to the reader to determine if all is truly well that ends well.
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