/tg/ - Traditional Games

>>411960

>Author of Sigmata

Here's your first problem. You went to some SJW faggot's twitter and then came here to ask us about his faggoty opinions in a new thread instead of posting in the politics thread, which is specifically made for "Hey look what this dumb SJW faggot said" type posts. This guy is a lunatic who LARPs as a guerilla revolutionary and thinks his faggoty RPG about hipsters with superpowers is a training manual for teaching the proles to stage an uprising against what he believes to be a real life fascist government.

The rest of his rambling is moronic, because he's attempting to force the belief that games should not allow players to undertake nonoptimal or immoral actions. He's also trying to really force this absurd scenario where torture is only used under emergency situations while simultaneously relying on an even more retarded belief that anyone being tortured can muster superhuman willpower to withstand extreme bodily harm and suffering to just wait out a time sensitive event.

<knows she

<if her

Anyone who does this shit, using female instead of male pronouns in a generic context, is throwing up massive red flags.

author seems like a fag about it but its pretty well known that normal physical torture produces untrustworthy and unactionable results

IMO anyone important enough to know something you can torture out of them is important enough to ransom instead

>>411960

The author is a retard and his first sentence entirely invalidates anything that comes afterwards. If I were writing the game system...

>A successful Torture skill test will make the subject do whatever they believe will make the torture stop. Failure results in defiance, unconsciousness, incoherent screaming, or similar as per DM decision.

>If asked for information, they will give information. This does not mean they will give accurate information. It is on the torturer to sift through the information given and separate the truth from lies.

>If the torturer can catch the torture victim in a lie (or bluff that they have) this can be leveraged into gaining more accurate information. (A failed bluff or worse, claiming you to have caught a lie when it's actually truth on the other hand fucks your ability to gain real information)

So it's not optimal for trying to get someone to cooperate, but that doesn't mean it's useless. They will resist in any way they feel they can, and you will have to be clever about it to yield results.

The main problem is that if someone actually doesn't know the information you're seeking, they will be compelled to make up some shit. Since you probably won't trust them when they say "I don't know" there's no way for you to know if they actually know or not. And thus no way to know if they're telling the truth because you're actually compelled them to do it, or if they're lying because you've compelled them to make up anything.

This is why it's unreliable. If someone has information, then yes, you can absolutely coerce them into divulging it - even someone with the strongest willpower will eventually break. The problem is telling whether or not someone's knows the information and is speaking honestly, or knows the information and is lying, or doesn't know the information and is just making shit up because they have no choice.

The best means of interrogation has always been befriending the target, because this reduces the risk of getting misinformation and increases the odds that information you do get will be valid. Sure, you could still be lied to deliberately by someone who has the information you seek, but at least someone who doesn't know won't feel compelled to make shit up, and that cuts down on a huge amount of the misinformation you would have had to sift through - your truth ratio goes up massively. Let's give an example with numbers. You have 10 prisoners. Unbeknownst to you, 5 of them know the information you're seeking and 5 know nothing. Of the 5 who know, 2 are dedicated enough to risk lying under torture and will also give false information when befriended to fuck you over, 2 can be cowed by torture or persuaded by befriending, and 1 would be cowed by torture but under an attempt to befriend will lie and say he knows nothing (so we are giving torture a little leg up in effectiveness vs befriending here to illustrate it's shortcoming later). The 5 who know nothing will, naturally, make up stuff to save themselves from torment, and will keep quiet if befriended or will say they know nothing.

You have two approaches, either torture the prisoners or befriend the prisoners. Given the above results, here's what torture gets you:

3 good pieces of information, 7 bad pieces of information.

Here's what befriending gets you:

2 good pieces of information, 2 bad pieces of information, and six people who insist rightly or wrongly that they don't know what you're looking for.

Befriending got you less good pieces of information but substantially less bad, now you're at 50/50 odds that a given bit of intel is true. Torture got you a bit more information but a hell of a lot of bad shit, you're at 30/70 odds that a given bit of intel is bullshit. The more people you've taken prisoner who don't know the information you're seeking, the worse your ratio of good to bad intel is going to be if you use torture, and the better befriending will be.

tl;dr it doesn't matter if torture works, the false information it generates makes it useless garbage for getting good intel. Its main purpose is and always has been as a tool of terror by which totalitarian governments such as Communist Russia, Republican Spain, or ancient Imperial Chinese dynasties threaten their population into submission and obedience. Not getting information.

>torture

Agree but depends how you do it.

Recently my group of a campaign that was recently ended captured a group of dwarves that were enslaving lizards.

Now, we didn't care much for it (except for a lizard crewmember), let's just say we were pirates and that will be the premise for everything we do.

As Captain, I lead the torture of the dwarves in two occasions.

First, it was a patrol we met in the swamps, looking for lizardmen to kill or enslave.

Engaged, killed them all.

Except one.

Conversation started with me ordering the pirates to beat the guy up then following with me telling him I was going to let him know when I wanted to know something.

Beating stopped, I asked him question, gentle voice and all.

I remember cursing or maybe he insulted the lizardman that was translating into dwarven.

Told the pirates to go back beating the guy.

As he was getting his literal guts turned into grounded meat, I explained that I don't want to hurt him, I just want to know certain things so I can get into the stronghold, steal all the silvers (silver mines were a thing, so I wanted the ingots) and get out with as little casualties as possible, it's his fault, his hostility that caused him to be pummeled into a pulp, not me: I wasn't even touching him after all.

He answered a couple of times.

I caressed his cheek, told him he didn't need to suffer, just tell us what we wanted and we'll be on our way.

Mostly I wanted to know the numbers, if traps were there and if his leader actually had deals with demons.

After he answered our questions he asked if he could die in combat: he knew he was going to get killed but he wanted to die like his companions did.

Had him drowned in the swamp water, we were on a time schedule.

Just to say, that what is written in

>>411980

Is right.

Don't even give a shred of empathy to your captor, don't ever think that he'll be merciful or that he's looking out for you.

I sure as hell wasn't.

The second time was when we managed to kill all the guards and almost kill the leader (who escaped through teleportation hijinx).

Wasn't much of a torture though.

Asked a question.

Didn't get an answer.

Picked up a kid.

Asked again.

Got an answer.

Then let the lizardman decide what to do with them after all the valuables were rounded up and we had access to the vault.

He killed them all except the children, the children he let wander in the swamp after setting on fire the entire settlement.

Long winded but the tl;dr is that mental fatigue is what gets you during torture.

I'm sure the proud blacksmith would've died with a smile on his face, the second I picked his kid however the tables were turned: I was the one smiling.

Likewise, just think what would "trigger" a character.

If you think hard the "trigger" usually isn't death, ironically death isn't that scary, death can also be noble, you could turn out to be a martyr.

Usually, the "trigger" is taking away things from their life they took for granted.

>>411960

Wrong, a good torturer will break whomever he holds captive with enough suffering.

A normal human has 20 fingernails and 32 teeth that can be removed with ease to a excruciating effect, the soyguzzling faggot you linked probably hasn't suffered anything worse than lacking strength to open his bottle of soylent.

>>411988

Or that info cannot be verified either with previous intel or with simultaneously held captives.

>>411997

>>If asked for information, they will give information. This does not mean they will give accurate information. It is on the torturer to sift through the information given and separate the truth from lies.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a willpower roll for the captive that on failure compels him to tell the truth and on success allows to tell false information?

>Wouldn't it make more sense to have a willpower roll for the captive that on failure compels him to tell the truth and on success allows to tell false information?

I feel that if the torture victim is entitled to a Willpower roll (in the case of a PC victim or particularly defiant NPC), it would be to oppose the initial Torture roll. The torture victim's only concern at this point is to make the torture stop. To get what you want, then you have to successfully convince them that you cannot be deceived and that accurate information is the only way out. I also feel that the entire sequence is not something that should be glossed over with a few skill rolls. If you're going to torture a guy, then you have to play it out. If the player doesn't have the stomach for that, then they need to come up with a different way to get what they want. Skill tests may be a part of it (the initial torture roll, bluffing, maybe charm or intimidation), but you can't just throw dice at something to know whether it's true or a lie. Side note, I really hate sense motive and detect lie type spells and skills.

A trick I've often used in games when questioning someone predisposed to lying (whether torture is involved or not) is to lead the questioning down a topic that I already know some of the information about. I wait until I can catch them in a lie and then press hard. At this point, they know that I already know some things - though not everything or else why would I be questioning them - and I make it clear that lying will only make things worse. It's not perfect, but it's proven fairly reliable in at least getting more information than I started with.

>>412017

So to take your example.

I have 10 people 7 of which are managing to lie in the timeframe I have to torture them.

So i'll have 3 votes for the truth, and 2 votes for the cover from them and 5 random lots.

Looks like torture wins. I think the real problem with torture is finding a crew that can work together to do it on a regular basis. People have sympathetic responses so I'm sure burn out is high and the kind of people who can do it for days (psychopaths) are notoriously hard to work with/control. Befrinding seems easier on the torturer then anyone really.

>>412051

>If you're going to torture a guy, then you have to play it out. If the player doesn't have the stomach for that, then they need to come up with a different way to get what they want.

I feel like this falls under that weird roleplay problem where a character should know things they player doesn't. The player may not like to think about bamboo and fish-hooks going under fingernails, but if their character is skilled and experienced with torture, then the player should be allowed to rely on that fictional quality to gloss over the situation. Same as they would when their smart character needs to be smarter than they are, or their charming character needs to be witty and likable when the player is going to fumble over their words.

>>412054

why should the gm have to do more handwaiving if the player doesnt want to do some basic research on the subject matter.

>>412055

It's a matter of priority. It is important that a group take the time to painstakingly narratively simulate an accurate and effective torture session, or is it more important that things keep moving along instead of grinding to a halt for the sake of misguided need for realism and accuracy?

>>412055

When you GM do you require a valid doctorate for characters who are supposed to be skilled in medicine?

What if an incredibly well-spoken player purposefully had charisma as a dump stat because instead of rolling he'd give an amazing speech?

>>412056

>Is it important that a group take the time to painstakingly narratively simulate an accurate and effective torture session, or is it more important that things keep moving along instead of grinding to a halt for the sake of misguided need for realism and accuracy?

Simulationfags on suicide watch!

>>412017

>>412053

Just so you guys know those odds are far beyond the success rate the CIA boasts. Try 1/1000 for the number of successes. All other "successes" is just babbling for the sake of making the torture stop, since all information has to be verified this actually gets in the way of finding vital information and undermines your intelligence network.

>>412057

>What if an incredibly well-spoken player purposefully had charisma as a dump stat because instead of rolling he'd give an amazing speech?

Unless he's rolling a string of 20's the 'amazing speech' he just made was pitched for entirely the wrong crowd and had an undesirable result (severity determined by their check).

>>412059

It's a young man's mistake. A thing you do when you think every single little thing needs to be accounted for, where every NPC needs a name and backstory, and every square inch on the map needs to be detailed and accounted for. Some accuracy is definitely nice, and knowing how things work and how things are done are not to be scoffed at. However, some shit doesn't need a level of excruciating specificity and realism.

>>411960

>Thus guy

>Breaks AMA and MLA standard buy refusing to use neutered he, it, they

>Says its the people confused why he's referring to an individual female character in his writing are the ones making pronouns a thing.

Even if he wasn't factually wrong in his excerpt on the usefulness of torture, I'd still throw his ideas out the window.

>>412063

Better analogy I came up with is gambling that is governed by a skill, and act of gambling doesn't turn the RPG session into mahjong, poker, blackjack or roulette session but is done through a roll to determine the outcome and skill checks to see if the player can cheat without getting caught.

>>412109

Kennedy Assassination shit got declassified fully and nobody is going to any of the agencies involved to hang them all for treason. The CIA's Detention and Interrogation program only has the explicit details classified while the overall summary of what they do has been made available for 4-5 years now and nobody really cares they're torturing people while using cute phrases like "enhanced interrogation techniques" or "coercive interrogations".

The thing is, is that there is no recorded success rate in their records. At all. Even the records they claimed was a success proved that to be a lie since none of the information they acquired was actually from the detainee and came from other sources.

The best interrogation technique for acquiring information quickly was to simply confront the subject with information you already had and bluff them.

>>412061

>>412137

That's what they want you to know.

>>412137

yeah but the CIA is talking about sleep deprevation and shoving a tube up your butt and we're talking degloving and vivisection over here. Might not be quite the same thing.

>>411960

I'll start by saying that the faggot is obviously wrong but I get how he came to this conclusion. It is a very politically correct answer. If you're against torture, it would be very convenient if torture is also ineffective. It is a reassuring lie made from narrow minded conjecture just like the belief that homophobes are actually closeted homosexuals. It is a mutation of the idea that torture isn't that effective especially when blindly used on those that might actually know nothing relevant. It reminds of the myth of poverty causing terrorism. It reeks of someone who can't separate his politics/morals from both reality and fiction. Is racism unfounded in world of goblins, dwarfs, and elves? Speaking of fantasy settings, I'm reminded on how many Marxists assume that the poor will definitely join their revolution and they are angered by those who don't (including Marx himself).

>>411997

That is more interesting and nuanced than "lol it doesn't work you dumb fascist pig!". Torture is just a tool. You can use it to give the impression that you have loose morals. If it is a group of people, you can give the impression that they are disposable. Make sure to keep your story straight otherwise one of them will pass a wisdom check and realize that there is no point in shooting a man before throwing him off a plane.

>>412045

>Wouldn't it make more sense to have a willpower roll for the captive that on failure compels him to tell the truth and on success allows to tell false information?

I think that passing a will check should allow them to stay silent while failing one would result in a progressively harder wisdom check. Failing that would result in another will save.

>>412139

>>412141

Not even the ancient Chinese who are masters of torture recommend torture for investigation, all recommendations for torture is for intimidation or forcing them to do something you want such as a forced confession regardless of avidence.

If they know nothing they will lie and undermine your investigation just to make it stop, if they do know something they'll still lie about everything else they don't truly know anything about just to make it stop which undermines your investigation. On top of that anyone who was thinking of cooperating with you normally will be alienated if word ever gets out, so you'll have to keep torturing or threatening torture because nobody trusts you to do anything else.

Reminder that evidence for the Holocaust was obtained via torture.

:^)

>>412148

lets presume this is true then. Why would the ancient chinese even have torture masters then? Demoralization? You could literally accomplish the same with rape (and the serbs did to great effect) and there is no need for 'Rapemasters'. As for the whole they'll lie bit, of course they will. But everything they say is a piece of information about what they think you want to hear (somehow amongst the top tier pain of being set on fire, having their colon shredded from the inside, having a bamboo grow thru their intestines, intentional nerve damage and various kinds of deprevation and drugs they are still thinking clearly enough to do this, what amazing reserves these people have).

>muh alienation

Yes because evil empires never have allies, never succeed and never diversify in your fictional account either. Again I'm really thinking this is a lack of creativitiy on your part then any problem on torture. Now you've said a lot so let me ask a question.

>Can you train the human animal?

Simple yes or no suffices. If the answer is Yes, torture will work.

>>412142

But bane was genuinely curious about it and he believed the bluff CIA made about only 1 being allowed to stay on the plane.

>>412164

The Chinese used torture as a method of execution. Lingchi (slow slicing) was one notable type where they amputated progressively more and more flesh/extremities until a person died. This was done not only as a method of earthly execution but as also a way to attempt to deny the person's soul into Chinese heaven.

>>412164

>having a bamboo grow thru their intestines

The French in Asia removed fingernails with bamboo, if someone somehow withstood all 20 fingernails being excruciatingly removed they moved on to the teeth.

Torture kicks ass, and anyone who says otherwise is some liberal faggot who's still butthurt about what happened post 9/11. Deal with it, you simpering faggots, every country on the planet has done torture, and it won't stop anytime soon.

>>412176

What?

I agree that torture works, the answer to your question is yes.

>torture

>not using magic to extract whatever info you want

>not torturing them afterwards because they didn't want to tell you themselves and made you go te extra mile to go and get the info yourself

Tabletop is escapism, it's meant for the player to do all the things you wouldn't do IRL.

Such as I wouldn't go with a gun and take down an entire drug cartel by myself IRL I wouldn't go raping, murdering and torturing IRL

Also this post is about Sigmata: This Signal Kills Fascists. What the fuck did you expect from a person that writes/plays something with such a name.

>>412191

We had a whole thread about the game and how awful it is if you want to give it a read. https://8ch.net/tg/res/385919.html

>>412164

Yes, now let me ask you a question what makes you think training through torture=extracting reliable information? Also I'm not this guy >>412172

>(somehow amongst the top tier pain of being set on fire, having their colon shredded from the inside, having a bamboo grow thru their intestines, intentional nerve damage and various kinds of deprevation and drugs they are still thinking clearly enough to do this, what amazing reserves these people have).

They wouldn't be able to speak coherently at that point, so interrogating them at that point is useless it's just an execution.

>Yes because evil empires never have allies, never succeed and never diversify in your fictional account either.

I didn't actually assume empire scale but on an agency subdivision within a larger group. Let's look to Vietnam the POWs were rarely tortured for information, they were tortured to break their spirits and force them to cooperate in propaganda stunts. All of them did write an anti-american statement but all of them also took steps to keep communication with each other the whole time despite their captors best efforts. When Ho Chi Minh died and the shitty conditions eased up the prisoners immediately organized into a stronger group and entrenched themselves. 24 and other shows on TV project this image that torture is quick and works 100% of the time to get information consequence free when it's the opposite of reality.

>>412227

>I think there's a sweet spot between being completely incoherant and being talkative but not particularly able to lie

What possible moment would be the sweet spot? Mk Ultra techniques breaks a person so much they're not even people anymore and no longer capable of telling you anything until after you've conditioned them into being a sleeper agent, in which case you don't need to torture a sleeper agent. Using all your information you already have to play twenty questions with all his disposable appendages defeats the purpose since he's just regurgitating things you already know but mixing it in with what you want to hear pretty much as quickly as he can think up anything on the spot he's not being rational once he succumbs to it, you could've gotten more out of him by simply doing a gotcha without any torture for equal or better results and he may even be willing to come back. Then there is the fallibility of the torturer, rejecting what the truth is because they're convinced that's not actually the truth so telling the truth gets you tortured so you are not going to tell the truth you are going to tell them what they want to hear which is whatever bullshit you can pull out of your ass to make the torture stop.

As for your two questions, I don't quite understand what the question is that the human mind cannot be easily predicted or not? Is this what you're asking? Extreme negative reinforcement and it's effects are pretty predictable so I disagree?

>>412247

What? Now I don't understand anything you're talking about. There is no specialness or iron will involved with torture being the worst option for interrogation because like any animal response to extreme negative enforcement humans default to immediately placating the the one doing the torture to make it stop which means thinking up anything they can think of in that moment. This does not mean the truth, this means anything to make the torture stop. If you keep torturing them past that point then they'll regress and either end up entirely broken or start lashing out at you given the chance because there isn't anything else that's going to stop it. That is not an iron will, that is a basic animal response and humans are no different.

It's clear to me now that you're arguing something I have no disagreement with you on, especially because of these last two questions making zero sense to me since I only now understand what you were implying.

>>412277

He's posting cuckchan memes. Why did you expect him to be anything other than retarded?

>>411960

>implying 90% of people wouldn't spill absolutely everything they know after less than an hour of torture just to make the pain stop

>implying you're in any shape to start thinking of tall tales when all you can think about is how unbearable the pain is

>"when the roles reverse..."

>implying this is a given

>implying friends and family need you to be tortured to death to start seeking vengeance (they'd seek it anyway whether you got tortured to death or put down by a lethal injection)

>torture is to hurt the torturee's feefees (how retarded is the author?)

>implying you need torture to dehumanize or that you somehow broadcast torture room scenes to the general public rather than it staying between the torturer and victim

>actually naming a faction something as gay as "Resistance"

what extreme faggotry

>>412301

he wasn't, as implied by the line

>they expect one of us in the wreckage, brother

meaning Bane believed that itin told CIA there's only room for 1 of masketta man's mercenaries.

>>412053

>So i'll have 3 votes for the truth, and 2 votes for the cover from them and 5 random lots.

You'll have three pieces of good intel and 7 bad, vs 2 good and 2 bad. Were you dropped on the head as a child, by any chance?

>>412349

>implying 90% of people wouldn't spill absolutely everything they know after less than an hour of torture just to make the pain stop

The remaining 10% are the ones who have anything of value to tell you. You can expect hard boiled terrorists and so on to be much tougher to crack than the rest of the population.

Here's how you get information out of average people.

>Give them a number.

>Cover their head

>Put them in stress positions.

>Lock them in a room with a recording of a baby crying for hours at a time.

>Make them uncomfortable.

>Don't let them have enough sleep.

>Feed them bland food, and never quite enough.

>All the guards treat them like shit.

>They are called liars when they do provide any information.

>Put them in a room "just for now, as we move prisoners around".

>Put a young looking guard in there with them.

>"Jesus, you look like shit. I have a bag of chips I saved from lunch, want to share? I'm Adam, by the way, what's your name? What's going on?"

>They spill their guts.

>>412370

<they expect one of us in the wreckage, brother

How does that prove anything? He already knew the situation before and after removing the blind fold.

>>412382

its good to know that pain only increases and never ever decreases.

>>412402

this only works if the person in question has never seen tv.

>>412413

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00239/full

>>412420

>these niggers don't even torture people

>>412443

Last time I checked it's somewhat difficult to get research sanctioned by the IRB if it involves torturing people.

>>412402

>They spill their guts.

The target would have to be in the right mindset for this to work with any speed faster then months. An Anon who came out about being tortured specifically resisted this kind of ploy by the simple act of being hateful to everyone and increasing his hate every passing moment. There is also the logistical issue since you any young looking guard who isn't experienced is just going to be suckered by the target if they're not stupid.

>>412397

> tortured him because he deserved it

In case you didn't notice, you just agreed with him.

>>412413

> its good to know that pain only increases and never ever decreases.

How? If it will increase regardless, then there is no incentive to tell truth, only to invent increasingly more outrageous lies.

>>412451

When you torture someone, if it gets to that point, you never stop on the first confession, you keep going, and grill the details they give, looking for inconsistencies in their detail that are discontinuous to what you know.

>>412408

Well perhaps I'm wondering why someone would kill his own man, before starting the fire

Thoughts on Hanns Scharff and his technique?

>>412444

>psychology has nothing to offer about torture

<Unless it's against it

>because psychologist cannot do torture and therefore scientifically are of little value to this discussion

<Unless they agree with me

>>412446

>Anon literally describes in great detail how to get the prisoner in the right mindset

<but what if they weren't in the right mindset anon

>An anon who came out about being tortured

<totally not /leftypol/ guys I just hang with gitmo survivors

>I totally can increase my hate without end in every passing moment and I'm totally not subscribing special mental status to the people being tortured in my defense

Really why are you people even here?

>>412468

>gitmo survivor

I'm pretty sure he was being put through FBI or CIA "interrogation", they tried similar things to what is suggested here >>412402 on top of some enhanced interrogation techniques. The friendliness didn't work simply because he was determined to resist, when he was put through sleep deprivation he wasn't even in the state of mind to acknowledge anyone was there after a while so having a "friend" giving you potato chips while you're nearly catatonic isn't going to do shit to endear you to them.

>>412491

Forced sleep deprivation as a means of interrogation or torture is longer then "a few days". Typically it's a week or more, followed by "just enough" rest, then going through it again. Repeat. Since you're not put on any drugs to help keep you alert like truckers and sailors do you're not going to be fine at the end of it. At the extreme end of things you could be put into such a severe state of sleep deprivation that you go in and out of stupors. Which is a symptom of catatonia, other symptoms include hallucinating during these stupors.

>>411992

Clearly the torture involved here is loving sex designed to convert the captive in question to the opposing force.

>>412494

b-but my edgelord fantasies

>>412494

And yet, interrogation and torture continue to be used regardless of what people generally believe or accept.

>>412560

>soldering iron up your ass and THEN plugged in

We had a russian guy tell us this old KGB technique, he said no ever lasted more than 15 mins.

>>412464

He makes some pretty nice mosaics, if a little rudimentary. :^)

Methods similar to his interrogation techniques (befriending the POW and getting them to talk naturally) have been discussed in this thread.

>>412566

Because it's not about information, it's about confessions.

>>412572

Funny, the faggot referenced in the OP said something similar about the Spanish Inquisition.

>>412567

> old KGB technique

You are a very naive person, anon.

>>412566

That's because they're not doing it for any real interrogation it's either as a punishment for a crime you're accused of, force you to do something against you, executions, etc.

Regardless of whether or not torture is effective from a logical standpoint, it's important to remember that cultures do not act in a logical way. If PCs are part of some gangster organization, Inquisition, or some alien non-human culture, torture should be an option.

The OP is nonsense.

At its' most basic, torture is just an expression of will, with no higher purpose to the action. Niggers torture because they can and want to. Not because they have some abstract philosophical framework to justify the practice and explain some moral or practical good provided by it.

Jews love torture because they are evil. Observe the soviet union: all the horrible tortures they ordered inflicted upon people, their paranoid surveillance despite abundant evidence no one opposed them, the brutality of organized crime, the modern horror genre which is composed of fictional snuff films, and so forth.

The idea a man is so tough he will resist torture is a romantic fantasy. Anyone subjected to intense pain will eventually try to please his tormentor to make the pain stop.

>>412396

>The remaining 10% are the ones who have anything of value to tell you.

Don't think that's how it works. I'd expect a politician to crack much easier than, say, a soldier, yet the politician would have much more of value to tell.

>>412724

you'd be surprised most soldiers are fuckheads.

>>412591

> The OP is nonsense.

But the way you attempt to refute it is even dumber.

> At its' most basic, torture is just an expression of will, with no higher purpose to the action.

At its' most basic, pissing is just an expression of will, with no higher purpose to the action.

You are delusional, if you think that any action can't be described that way.

>>412766

but pissing definitely has a higher purpose (to clear the body of waste). Torture fits what he said because its low(a shitty thing to do) and optional to begin with

>>412775

> but pissing definitely has a higher purpose

...

How do you differentiate between "higher" and "lower" purpose? There is no inherent measurement, no way to establish who is correct, anyone can claim anything about "higher" and "lower".

> Torture [is] optional to begin with

That depends. It's not like it is always possible for torturer to bail with no consequences. I.e. "at its' most basic" we can't say that it is always and inherently optional.

>>412842

>you'll live long enough that even your fetishes will fail you.

There's always vanilla.

>>412798

In what situation is torture mandatory?

>>413227

nothing is mandatory so in no situations would torture be mandatory.

>>413181

Except that putting them under extreme physical stress, like with torture, is only going to make them fuck up the answers more. And not because they're being untruthful, but because they're distracted and being tortured. It's pretty basic logical reasoning that adding in torture will only mess up the deductive side of things, and get them to tell you whatever they think will make you stop hurting them. This is why some of the most successful interrogators of modern history (e.g., Hanns Scharff) have used persuasive and non-violent methods. As you said, the flow of interrogation is still the same, but it's not wrong to say that torture doesn't help anything.

>>413262

You're objectively wrong, because a lawful good paladin would never interrogate at all. They can't afford to waste their time when they could be out purging everything that pings on a detect evil spell. In the rare chance they're up against an intelligent evil, detect lies makes any interrogation more of a "lie, and something you like gets hurt" negative reinforcement. Goblins aren't really capable of higher thoughts like protecting the mission anyways. First time getting punished for lying, they'll buckle and rat or their whole clan.

>implying author just didn't handwavium this whole thing to avoid having his game become synonymous with torture (massive leftist)

>implying that OP isn't lawful good goblin reformist

>implying this isn't some shit attempt to raise the post count

>implying the angry /k/ shit poster didn't come here because of a shit lord 40k orc lover who shilled our board on /k/.

>implying this thread shouldn't have been anchored after it was apparent only one faggot was keeping the opposing thought alive (just like the alignment thread)

>implying this post is quality

>>413297

>stooping to petty sadism to "retaliate" against the DM for writing the bad guys like bad guys.

>>413312

>isn't the same as torture because it dosen't leave phyical marks but it can still traumattize the shit out of the person going through it

It's literally just sitting in front of you with a tape recorder and doing paperwork all day while ignoring you or asking the same questions over and over again. Unless you're in there for something like CP then at most they'll just keep trying to question you even outside the room until they have a gotcha moment. Then use that against you in a court of law.

Ex-Soviet police won't even interrogate they'll just put a gun to your head and say you did it.

>>413298

When the DM writes bad guys that can be meaningfully fought, that's a game. When the DM writes invincible evil DMPCs, that's the DM's personal psychological problem.

>>411960

Torture is sometimes overvalued, but saying it never has any intelligence value is pure and simply wishful thinking on this guy's part.

The rest of it is pretty much bullshit.

Torture is an idiot’s resort. Nobody who cares about their cause would use it, but liars and saboteurs promote it in groups they hate.

Hey wait I’m in the wrong forum, sorry

>>413297

Of course Gygax didn't object to player characters who tortured. Gygax wanted players to have a real option to be good or evil. Gygax loved the Elric stories and Elric tortured people.

>>411960

the fag who wrote this would do literally anything to get out of a paper cut

Anyone still have that pdf link from the last thread?

>>412200

>ctrl-f

>CBT

>nothing

TIME TO FIX THAT

You are also forgetting to realize that there are systems out there that can make it impossible to confirm or deny that the information they are seeking even exists. Look up Rubberhose Encryption.

>>412159

Actually the opposite is generally accepted as ideal. Showing the enemy that you treat prisoners humanely softens the common man on the opposing side to compare you favorably against their own leadership. This is why in the military they'll teach you that if you're captured and they give you food or other luxuries and comforts to behave like an animal with it so that the enemy can't use it as propaganda to show off how awesome it is to be one of them. There's a semi-fine line between cooperating/aiding the enemy and making yourself useful to your own side while in the possession of enemy forces. Normal people don't want to think that the Peoples United Freedom Army lead by Glorious Leader butchers it's enemies and turns it's prisoners into lunatics since everyone wants to believe they're on the side of the good and right. But if it gets out that your army treats it's prisoners worse than you would treat your own worst enemy or that the people you're fighting aren't hardened killers and rapists but uncivilized simpletons and you're still having a hard time beating them, it demoralizes your people.

I have an instinct that torture must be useful for something but for what I'm not sure. If it's good for your side to overplay how much you've been tortured then whatever it's good for has to be fairly limited.

>>416877

>I have an instinct that torture must be useful for something but for what I'm not sure.

Intimidationm, control, punishments, political messages basically what most people use torture for anyways.

>>411960

Wow so much leftist propaganda in that thread I had to check I wasn't on leftypol.

First torture is almost never about intelligence, especially since WWII. Torture is a political act in itself that reintroduce the death, pain and suffering brought by war to the side in a conflict that has chosen the most cowardly way of waging war: that is by refusing to wear an uniform and as such accepting those risks that go with it as any soldier does by hiding in the civilian population.

It is a strategy, that deprive the enemy of the advantage of picking it's fights and preventing the defending side to exercise it's power (power = monopoly of violence) against them.

It is so easy to help someone that you know is beaking the law for X,Y,Z political or sentimental reasons, so much easier than standing behind a rifle under mortar fire.

It's a bit less easy if you know that if the opposed intelligence catch a whiff of you they will hook your balls to a car battery and make you whistle the national anthem.

Cowardice must be answered by ruthlessness, such is the ONLY way to successfully fight an insurgency.

Intelligence gathering here is a side benefit and a way to sell to the soldiers administering it and one's own civilian population it's usage. But make no mistake the goal is to break the spirit of any would be insurgent by making them think twice about putting their neck out.

The second mistake is that said side benefice is negligible. It's not. Torture usually works and does regularly provide actionable intelligence. It's a commie myth of "the brave revolutionary" that will never betray his comrades. The commies secret police themselves must be pissing themselves laughing by hearing it when their liberal use of it allowed them to crush entire ARMIES of anti-red partizan. Because as seen previously the people that fight in such subdue manner are at their core terrified of fighting. They know they're gonna lose once confronted to the reality of their adversary power. They may be cunning yes... but they're usually not that smart. They're schemers, not "brave fighters". People like that DO NOT fare well under interrogation. Let alone torture. They will try to make deals, to negotiate, to believe they can somehow warn the others and, ultimately, to save themselves or the people they hold dear.

>>416877

Which is the reason why anyone tortured past a certain point must be executed and be made disappears. The insurgents must know what they risk but the population at large must NOT. Sure they will be rumors, but as long as there are no hard evidence past the stories from the insurgents most people won't care (as most people don't care about politics, no matter what they are). Couple this with a good daily propaganda about how the insurgent are terrorists that eat babies and most people will think "well even if it's true it's not like they didn't deserve it".

>>416898

Fairly intelligent post.

I'll warn you that this post is bait, and all "be kind to your neighborly traitor/insurgent/captive is purely from one anon. It's better to just ignore this shit thread, as it had almost fallen off the map before some other anon resurrected it. The book it came from is rubbish, and it by no means has any real credibility in the tabletop community, much less are the resources "backing" their claim by any means official. OP is a massive faggot, that's the only takeaway from this thread.

Eh, I wouldn't agree with his statement, unless we were talking about a Paladin (or other angelic being). Torturing a paladin is giving him another reason to kick your ass when he gets out of the situation he's in.

The easy way to get around that, is the fact that you would just have to threaten someone else, and only the most extreme of circumstances would alleviate his code to prevent harm (either by the fact that letting information go would create even more harm)

Compared to, an enslaved gremlin creature, goblin or kobold, take your pick... there is not the same amount of conviction, especially for creatures who come from a society where they are at best second class citizens under much stronger baddies.

You could even get a demon/devil to squeal with cold iron/silver, and some holy water applied to the face

Assuming everyone undergoing torture is a trained spy who has information they're willing to sacrifice everything for to keep it out of your hands isn't how things work. Even before we get into the moral argument.

>>417256

>can’t make a counterpoint without muttspam

>>>/intl/

>>417256

>Truncated citation and trying to pass ancient "wisdom" for truth.

You want to play?

>Quaestioni fidem non semper nec tamen numquam habendam constitutionibus declaratur: etenim res est fragilis et periculosa et quae veritatem fallat.

"Our constitutions (laws) states, that faith in interrogations should neither be given nor discarded: indeed those are fragile and dangerous and can fail [to reveal] the truth."

>Nam plerique patientia sive duritia tormentorum ita tormenta contemnunt, ut exprimi eis veritas nullo modo possit:

Some obstinate by patience or toughened by torment [of life] hold torture in contempt, and it is not possible to make them tell the truth:

>alii tanta sunt impatientia, ut quodvis mentiri quam pati tormenta velint:

others are so impatient they will lie to spare themselves the slightest torture:

>ita fit, ut etiam vario modo fateantur, ut non tantum se, verum etiam alios criminentur.

and thus will change their words, implicating themselves, but others as well in crimes.

"Our laws states, that faith in interrogations should neither be given nor discarded: indeed those are fragile and dangerous and can fail to reveal the truth. Some obstinate by patience or toughened by the torments of life hold torture in contempt, and it is not possible to make them tell the truth. Others are so impatient they will lie to spare themselves the slightest torture: and thus will change their words, implicating themselves, but others as well in crimes."

So basically all he's saying is not to take criminals at their words and in a legal context that people shouldn't be condemned only by declarations.

Such great wisdom.

Thank you, navarchus obvius.

>>411960

Torture is mostly used in democratic countries following rule of law to obtain admissions of guilt for kangaroo courts that don't require factual evidence, because by the time you're done pulling all man's fingernails he's ready to confess he eats children after raping them and have personally gassed 5 billion innocent people out of sheer hatred.

There was a book written by a british jew where he boasted about getting his revenge on a german soldier and used torture to obtain a confession for nuremberg trials, I forgot its title and author's name, he was a british officer of a notable rank, Major?

>>412552

Otherwise "radicalization" won't be a problem.