No.6990 [View All]
Thread Reminder that nationalism is a modernist or progressive invention to level difference in society. And should be opposed by a proper monarchist.
For more on this:
https://aidanmaclear.wordpress.com/2019/03/03/nationalism/
____________________________
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No.7284
>>7279
>Nationalism is literally the opposite of globalism.
>He thinks nationalism has nothing to do with leveling difference despite actual history
>Nationalist movements showed up in opposition to Imperialism, which was itself a form of proto-globalism.
Yeah, about that. Those "nationalist" movements you speak of that actually can be called nationalist would just about always be infected with Western ideals. See the Soviet Union's antics, Amerifat's antics, etc.
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No.7285
>>7281
ORTHODOXY, AUTOCRACY, AND NATIONALITY
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No.7286
>>7281
Nationalism is about shared values, culture, etc. It's more than a phenotype and a region. Nations didn't just start being a thing in the age of nationalism.
>>7284
>>He thinks nationalism has nothing to do with leveling difference despite actual history
How is that in any way related to what I said?
>Yeah, about that. Those "nationalist" movements you speak of that actually can be called nationalist would just about always be infected with Western ideals. See the Soviet Union's antics, Amerifat's antics, etc.
And how is that relevant to my point that nationalism was a reaction against what was essentially proto-globalism?
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No.7287
I'm going to explain how you can be a monarchist and a nationalist in two seconds. I don't care what you call "traditionalism" and "Enlightenment". A monarchist has reasons to support their nation.
Brexit is the first example. Supporting the sovereignty of Britain obviously means support for the Queen over Brussels; supporting a sovereign Queen over EU parliament. Obviously, support for Brexit is also support for the Queen, seeing as how it re-asserts Britain as a nation and Her Queen.
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No.7290
>>7286
>And how is that relevant to my point that nationalism was a reaction against what was essentially proto-globalism?
There is nothing wrong with imperialism, though. I am probably one of the few people who supports imperialism and nationalism and don't see them as mutually exclusive terms. I have adamantly disagreed with most people because their view of an empire is less benign than mine. Their view of an empire is just kicking down a few primitives and planting flags in little pebbly beaches. It has nothing to do with the imperialism of benevolent Emperors and popular sovereigns such as the German Emperor, as described before, or the statement here >>7285 from an emperor. The nationalists who oppose imperialism, mistaking it for multiculturalism, are just dorks. I don't listen to works.
For crying out loud, who doesn't want an empire?
It was already adamantly discussed here >>2989 and it's the normal plebs who see imperialism in a negative light. Let's remember that empires are ultimately seen negatively this day and age, so the conventional meaning is no longer even favorable. That is final.
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No.7292
>>7290
>There is nothing wrong with imperialism, though. I am probably one of the few people who supports imperialism and nationalism and don't see them as mutually exclusive terms.
Then you don't understand at least one of the terms. An empire, by definition, rules over multiple nations. You are not a nationalist if you desire that, regardless of which nation is doing the ruling.
There are times where empires have essentially forged new nations, to be fair. The Germans and the Japanese did it, among others. But that all happened prior to the actual age of imperialism, which nationalism was a response to. Austria-Hungary was never going to become a single nation, for example.
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No.7293
>>7292
No, it's not a matter of definition for me. It's just a matter that there are idiots out there, anti-imperialist Marxists and the other ilk, who pose the image of a big bad empire and that's how most of us see it today. Don't get me started on Warhammer 40k idiot LARPer monarchists or the other types, but an empire doesn't have to be so.
>There are times where empires have essentially forged new nations, to be fair.
Exactly.
>An empire, by definition, rules over multiple nations.
That's another definition, but it doesn't mean that the Emperor doesn't have a nation that is supreme over those nations, a nation to be exalted over others. There could be RUSSIAN Emperors, or GERMAN Emperors; or, as the other example stated, the Holy Roman Empire of the German NATION.
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No.7296
>>7286
>Nationalism is about shared values, culture, etc. It's more than a phenotype and a region. Nations didn't just start being a thing in the age of nationalism.
Tell us what nation the Romans shared with the other Italians they warred on.
>How is that in any way related to what I said?
You're advocate leveling like the liberal you are.
>And how is that relevant to my point that nationalism was a reaction against what was essentially proto-globalism?
>pretending nationalism isn't one step on the road to globohomo
There was no "Chinese Nationalism" prior to Chinamen studying Western sources.
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No.7298
>>7296
Different anon.
>Tell us what nation the Romans shared with the other Italians they warred on.
The Roman nation.
>You're advocate leveling like the liberal you are.
There will always be a people to be ruled. It doesn't level you anymore than being a member of an extended community. I honestly could care less what aristolarps whine about these days, if that's what you are.
>There was no "Chinese Nationalism" prior to Chinamen studying Western sources.
I don't care what mongrel Chinese think. Chinese are not Western. A few of us actually value the West and aren't from the Orient.
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No.7299
LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III LONG LIVE CHARLES III
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No.7300
>>7299
You scared me, anon. I had to google search to make sure everything was all right…
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No.7302
>>7298
>The Roman nation.
Not really. The Romans saw themselves as separate from other Italians. Them allowing other Italians to be citizens was driven by shutting them up. And was the first example of Romans extending who can be Roman (ala modern globohomo).
>There will always be a people to be ruled. It doesn't level you anymore than being a member of an extended community. I honestly could care less what aristolarps whine about these days, if that's what you are.
Alright, have fun with globohomo then.
>I don't care what mongrel Chinese think. Chinese are not Western. A few of us actually value the West and aren't from the Orient.
>mongrel
Han are no less homogeneous in blood than Frenchman are.
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No.7303
>>7302
I said the ROMAN nation.
Of course there was no Italian civilization, but there was a ROMAN civilization and its confines went beyond Rome as a city-state.
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No.7304
>>7303
>there was a ROMAN civilization and its confines went beyond Rome as a city-state.
>there is a MURICA civilization and its confines went beyond Anglo male stock.
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No.7305
>>7304
We're talking about the domain of Romulus and it could hardly matter to me. Yes, there were no Italians back then, but Italians derive their inspiration from Rome. Roman civilization was its own nation in a time long ago. We're talking about this and the Roman people who were essential to the republican government.
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No.7306
An Italian nation didn't come about until barbarians became Kings of Italty. There was always a healthy sense of preserving borders and boundaries from foreigners. Hence the ritual where they marked their borders with a plow digging dirt. The Italian nationalist movements would only have a cause to unite only after generations of cultural hegemony over Italy and a reason to have a common cause. The Romans eventually did adapt and expand over the other tribes and adopted a common bond. Of course there would be no Italian nation without the later conquest and growth of the Romans.
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No.7313
>>7286
But those are the core of nationalism; do you think Blut und Boden became their rallying cry by accident? How close culture and values have to be in order to be considered 'shared' is an arbitrary measure. I share more culture, more values, and more blood with rural Canadians than I do with a resident of San Francisco, yet I share a nation with the latter and not a former. Bavaria and Prussia were once different nations with different values, now they are the same nation. It goes without saying of course that some people have more in common with you and others have less common, I'm certainly not denying that. But the delineation of commonality, the mark which determines how close is close enough, is arbitrary. Clearly Abdul Al-Goatfucker cannot share a nation with John Smith. But what about a Frenchman and a Belgian? A Spaniard and a Portuguese? A Swiss and a Liechtensteiner? Or what about the South Slavs, that are closer in genes, culture, and value to one another than separate provinces of most nations, yet hate each other with an unrivaled burning passion? Nationalism offers no internally consistent definition that would allow one to answer these questions based on anything more than personal intuition. And even if it did, that doesn't address the core complaint: I have no reason to invest myself in the welfare of people outside of my immediate community that isn't imparted by ideology. I can't truly identify with more people than my Dunbar number. My transaction costs with people that are similar to me will be much lower than they are with people that are different from me, and because of that I will overwhelmingly prefer the company of a stranger that looks and thinks like me to a stranger that doesn't look like me and doesn't think like me, but they are ultimately both strangers.
>>7287
That's not a reason for a monarchist to be nationalist, though. It's a very good reason to support nationalism over globo-homo, but one need not be ideologically invested in nationalism to acknowledge that it is preferable to globalism.
>>7290
If you support monarchy, there is one thing inherently wrong with imperialism: It makes your monarchy less stable and shorter-lived.
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No.7316
>>7313
Sure, you could have a commune or covenant community instead, but what a San Franciscan shares with the other American is a loyalty and a history in their nation. His ancestors might have fought a cause in wars as another's ancestors had, or the American might share knowledge or relative American subcultures. I would probably disagree because a Canadian does have a bit of a cultural drift more likely than most Americans, even if there's disagreement in political thought.
>But what about a Frenchman and a Belgian?
For Walloon, yes, but a Belgian has a king and a few differences. A king does unite differences and achieves a common heritage.
>A Spaniard and a Portuguese?
Language. A history divides them as well.
>A Swiss and a Liechtensteiner?
Different loyalties and history.
>Or what about the South Slavs, that are closer in genes, culture, and value to one another than separate provinces of most nations, yet hate each other with an unrivaled burning passion?
Religious turmoil, historical grievances and a few wars.
>That's not a reason for a monarchist to be nationalist, though.
No, I think it is sufficient. A nation and a monarch can mutually advance their interests.
>If you support monarchy, there is one thing inherently wrong with imperialism: It makes your monarchy less stable and shorter-lived.
Throughout the history of man, there is a single thing proven: everything breaks and dies. All that matters is our history defines us.
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No.7317
>>7302
>The Romans saw themselves as separate from other Italians
Every single people in Europe ~2000 years ago considered their tribal identities before bigger types of identities, Teutones didn't see themselves as being the same as Ubii either, doesn't mean they didn't look around for whatever people were more or less like them. For that matter, Romans(Quirites), fought an extremely bloody war with Latins, literally one of their major, if not the major founding ethnicity of their own people.
Contemporary central Italians even had essentially the same original archaic triad of Gods as Romans.
Italians are one of the only people, if not the only people aside from Greeks I guess who can boast about having ~2000 years old references to their own people, like in Catullus first Poem
>"Corneli tibi namque tu solebas
>meas esse aliquid putare nugas
>iam tum cum ausus es unus Italorum
>omne aevum tribus explicare cartis"
>"To you, Cornelius, for you were accustomed
>to think that my nonsense was something,
>then already when you alone of Italians
>dared to unfold every age in three papyrus rolls"
Mind you, this was a north Italic born in Verona talking about the work of another north Italian, the use of the noun "Italus" to designate someone else not even born far from Verona instead of his specific tribe to me is significant.
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No.7320
>>7316
It's highly debatable whether San Franciscans have loyalty to anything besides their own dopamine rush, but that's another debate entirely. And Canadians have drifted, but so have individual states. Many states in the northeast US are closer to rural Canada in their dialect and mannerisms than they are to the heartland US. Or on the subject of Canada, different regions within Canada speak different languages, yet are considered part of the nation.
>loyalties and history
Once again, these are extremely fickle and arbitrary things. At the instant before the HRE seceded from the HRE, they had neither different loyalties nor a different history. For the first few years after they seceded, they might have had different loyalties, but most of their history was still as part of the HRE, and their culture was still very reminiscent of the HRE. Hell, just look within Switzerland. There are four languages spoken within the cantons, and the east of the country is culturally different from the west, yet they are the same nation. Or, take an example from the other side: Poland has spent more of its history as a province of either Russia, Germany, or both than it has as a sovereign state. The Polish language was methodically suppressed for quite some time in favor of these language. If history is your delineation, then by all rights Poland is not a nation and should not exist. And yet, nationalism is stronger in Poland than it is in most parts of Europe. Because it is so arbitrary, it is not accurate to say the nation is an organic or intrinsic property of any people. Rather, it is pure ideology, a post hoc definition used by republican politicians and partisans to seize power and advance their interests.
>No, I think it is sufficient. A nation and a monarch can mutually advance their interests.
Allow me to quote my previous post:
<It's a very good reason to support nationalism over globo-homo, but one need not be ideologically invested in nationalism to acknowledge that it is preferable to globalism.
It does not follow that because two camps may work together in some circumstances that they are the same camp.
>Throughout the history of man, there is a single thing proven: everything breaks and dies.
And some things break faster than others. And of those things that do break, some break less violently than others, and have the possibility of being repaired. It doesn't follow that because death is inevitable, you should overeat and snort cocaine until you keel over at the ripe old age of 45. How the life is lived is significant, as well as the legacy left after death.
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No.7324
>>7293
What Marxists think has no bearing on me.
>but it doesn't mean that the Emperor doesn't have a nation that is supreme over those nations
That's not nationalism. A nationalist monarchist believes nations should have their own monarchs, rather than be subjected to the monarch of another.
>You're advocate leveling like the liberal you are
This still looks like a non-sequitur to me.
>There was no "Chinese Nationalism" prior to Chinamen studying Western sources.
China has always been an empire.
>>7313
I oversimplified a bit, but the word nation in its technical sense does not mean sovereign state. The USA is a psuedo-nation-state.
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No.7325
>>7324
I'm aware that there is some distinction between a nation and the governing state. But that doesn't change my driving point, which is that the line between what is a nation and what isn't a nation is arbitrary, the product of ideology and political expediency, rather than something intrinsic to populations.
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No.7326
>>7325
It's not always clear cut, but that doesn't make it arbitrary. Regardless, the big nationalist movements that came about as a reaction to imperialism usually WERE fairly clear cut. Using it as an example again, Austria-Hungary really can't be reasonably portrayed as having been a united people.
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No.7334
>>7287
>It's highly debatable whether San Franciscans have loyalty to anything besides their own dopamine rush
San Francisco remains an American city as far as I know. Maybe it will eventually lend way to another nation, but as far as I know San Francisco remains a part of the US nation and San Franciscans haven't left. That's good enough for me.
>Many states in the northeast US are closer to rural Canada in their dialect and mannerisms than they are to the heartland US.
That's the case of a historical divide from the Revolutionary War. Yes, two peoples have something in common, but they went separate paths.
>Or on the subject of Canada, different regions within Canada speak different languages, yet are considered part of the nation.
There's no denying that someone from Quebec is different from the rest of Canada due its French origin, but they remain Canadian as far as they interact and remain with the whole of Canada and share the same Queen.
>At the instant before the HRE seceded from the HRE, they had neither different loyalties nor a different history.
It's really hard to understand what you mean here because of how you spelled it out, but the prince-electors had their own dynasties and lands. I wouldn't know about saying 'nor different history'.
>Poland is not a nation and should not exist
Just because Poland existed as a province didn't mean there was no history and no Polish people. Maybe nationalism would be stronger after a history in the USSR.
<It does not follow that because two camps may work together in some circumstances that they are the same camp.
I said a monarchist AND a nationalist, not that they were both one and the same.
>And some things break faster than others.
Centuries of imperial rule.
>>7324
>That's not nationalism. A nationalist monarchist believes nations should have their own monarchs
Maybe for their own country, but I don't see why a nationalist needs to give a damn about the other nations. A good nationalist wants their nation to be triumphant over other nations in my book. Not this hippy stuff.
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No.7345
>Nationalism has repeatedly opposed preceding structures and otherwise been introduced by Westerners
>no no it doesn't lead to globohomo
>>7324
>This still looks like a non-sequitur to me.
Nationalism has repeatedly leveled societies. Threatened preceding structures. Treated any man in a land as entitled to "citizenship."
>China has always been an empire.
That's no nationalism. Especially when the likes of Mongols and other non-Han were't seen as fellow "Chinese."
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No.7358
>>7345
>older things are automatically better
You're ignoring the issue. That kind of imperialism was crypto-globalism. It was shit. Nationalism was a move away from globalism.
>nationalists believe everyone should have citizenship just for living in an area
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No.7361
>>7358
>older things are automatically better
They're less degenerate as a rule.
>That kind of imperialism was crypto-globalism. It was shit. Nationalism was a move away from globalism.
>The mind of the modernist
Every nationalist rise was pozzed in one way or another. If not from the blueprints then from being easily enough infiltrated by the Forces of Globohomo (see the French Revolution).
>nationalists believe everyone should have citizenship just for living in an area
That's more or less what you get in practice. Actually Existing Nationalism again levels society. Has a hostile attitude towards preceding structures. Does not reliably advocate caste.
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No.7365
>>7358
>>7361
Before modernists corrupted nationalism, the nation and the state were different things. Back then, people thought it was weird to call yourself a "German", or "Italian", or "Russian" or whatever, it was a very broad term for them, kinda of like calling yourself "white" or a "westerner" today. In the past, people identified more with the village and specific region that they came from, that's why you get surnames like "von Trier", "da Vinci", "Dostoevsky", etc… indicating that someone came from that specific place.
The totalitarian nationalists at /pol/ and /leftypol/ (same shit, different names) don't know or care about these details, they don't care that different regions in Germany might have spoken a slightly different German, or have had slightly different German traditions that were lost in one place but preserved in another, or that some of these "Germans" even have a different ethnic background (such as in eastern Germany). This is the reason why language death occurs, and why so much culture and folk traditions are lost, because everything is standardized and centralized by the capital.
By standardizing it all, they want to mix everything together and create some abstract, artificial national identity dictated by the government, and of course they aren't doing it because they "love" their people or anything like that, they have power fantasies fuelled by their hatred for society, so through their specific ideology they want to act out their revenge against whoever it was that bullied them in life, and not just Jews or niggers, who perhaps rightfully deserve punishment, but also rich people, poor people, roasties, chads, normies, boomers, zoomers, etc… their personal problems become political problems, and as a result you get a laughing stock of a movement, unlike what that Hitler had when he came to power.
The solution to this, and what real nationalism looks like is of course libertarian nationalism, aka a "Europe of a thousand Liechtensteins" as Hoppe puts it, and not some giant fucking globalist empire like the EU or Hitler's Germany eating everything in sight and growing like a fucking tumour, but alas, since everything is already so centralized and homogenized right now, and there isn't much difference between cities in a country, or even between countries themselves, the next best thing we have is calling ourselves "Germans" and "Italians" and "Russians", and sooner or later we won't even have that.
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No.7366
Reminder that Cucks/Pozzed support nationalism as long as it's not for Whitey.
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No.7367
>>7361
>French Revolution
>Nationalist
What the fuck are you talking about?
>That's more or less what you get in practice
No, it's not.
>Hostile to preceding structures
The structures immediately preceding nationalism were shit
>Does not reliably advocate caste
>Implying that's bad
Caste systems are almost as shit as trying to make everyone equal in every way.
>Before modernists corrupted nationalism, the nation and the state were different things.
The terms are often used interchangeably because the majority of sovereign states today are nation-states. The change wasn't in what nationalism is, was in the nations themselves. The idea that these changes ONLY occur because of social engineering is absurd. Yes, it did happen, particularly within the far-right and far-left. But increasing transportation and communication abilities means increasing cultural interchange.
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No.7368
>>7367
>>Before modernists corrupted nationalism, the nation and the state were different things.
>The terms are often used interchangeably because the majority of sovereign states today are nation-states. The change wasn't in what nationalism is, was in the nations themselves. The idea that these changes ONLY occur because of social engineering is absurd. Yes, it did happen, particularly within the far-right and far-left. But increasing transportation and communication abilities means increasing cultural interchange.
Directed at >>7365
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No.7370
>>7367
>The change wasn't in what nationalism is, was in the nations themselves.
Yes, with increased centralization, the world gets smaller. In Japan you can take a bullet train from one city to another really quickly, it's a small country, but there are still specific traditions, dialects, and other niches to seperate each city and prefecture from the rest of the country. If it was all about transport and telecoms, then a place like Russia would be teeming with cultural diversity, since there is a large distance between cities, but every city looks exactly the same, the culture is exactly the same, and the only regions that had different dialects of our language broke away to form seperate governments.
Centralization is the death of the nation.
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No.7377
>>7367
>French Revolution
>Nationalist
>What the fuck are you talking about?
>They never did anything to give rise to nationalism
>no unconditional male suffrage
>no accepting the scribbles of degenerates like Locke and Rousseau
>No, it's not.
Yeah, we all know all the "nations" that kept away from overly high suffrage.
>The structures immediately preceding nationalism were shit
Considering how modern France and Murica are nowadays (getting filled up with rape apes, has a half-monkey president)…
Also, Old Egypt lasted much longer than just about any notable democracy.
>Caste systems are almost as shit as trying to make everyone equal in every way.
They are designed to keep society stable in a way "meritocracy" doesn't. Say what you will about India and its smelliness but it's not the murder filled dump South America is.
>The terms are often used interchangeably because the majority of sovereign states today are nation-states.
You mean democracies telling kids it's okay to miscegenate and be gay.
>The change wasn't in what nationalism is, was in the nations themselves. The idea that these changes ONLY occur because of social engineering is absurd. Yes, it did happen, particularly within the far-right and far-left. But increasing transportation and communication abilities means increasing cultural interchange.
>muh food and muh dik
How's Murica doing?
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No.7379
>>7377
>>They never did anything to give rise to nationalism
Nationalism in OTHER countries was used as a tool during some of the wars, but that doesn't make the French Revolution a nationalist uprising.
>>no unconditional male suffrage
That has nothing to do with nationalism.
>>no accepting the scribbles of degenerates like Locke and Rousseau
Do you think nationalism and liberalism/the enlightenment are the same thing, or something?
>Yeah, we all know all the "nations" that kept away from overly high suffrage.
Listen, retard. There's a difference between universal suffrage for male citizens and universal citizenship for everyone living in the country's borders. Basically all adult citizens in the US can vote. You do not get citizenship just for living here. Applying for residence and applying for citizenship are separate things.
>Considering how modern France and Murica are nowadays (getting filled up with rape apes, has a half-monkey president)…
We're talking about what proceeded the rise of nationalism.
>They are designed to keep society stable
Cool.
>"meritocracy"
Meritocracy is not a leveling of society, it's a stratification of society along merit. There's a reason the hyper-progressive academic types are completely autistically asshurt about the idea of meritocracy.
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No.7382
>>7379
>Nationalism in OTHER countries was used as a tool during some of the wars, but that doesn't make the French Revolution a nationalist uprising.
"France" is a product of the revolution. Your peasant in Joan of Arc's day, for how much she fought the English, did not see himself as belonging to a "nation" regardless of his obligations to his community and lord with the peasants on other side of "France."
>That has nothing to do with nationalism.
Denial.
>Do you think nationalism and liberalism/the enlightenment are the same thing, or something?
They are in bed with each-other. There was no nationalism before modernity.
>Listen, retard. There's a difference between universal suffrage for male citizens and universal citizenship for everyone living in the country's borders. Basically all adult citizens in the US can vote.
>Including women and Niggers and Beaners and Gooks.
>You do not get citizenship just for living here. Go look up Anchor Babies.
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No.7383
>>7379
>Meritocracy is not a leveling of society, it's a stratification of society along merit. There's a reason the hyper-progressive academic types are completely autistically asshurt about the idea of meritocracy.
>t. liberal who thinks Medieval society worked like Game of Thrones
>He thinks Clown World isn't the fruit of "meritocracy."
https://twitter.com/qin_duke/status/1128683774504505344
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No.7386
>>7382
>"France" is a product of the revolution.
What were the Franks? Listen, I get this idea that you're pro-feudal, but there will always be a people and their rulers. Not that they are one and the same, or individually separate, but that they remain together. This is the one democratic juice I'm willing to drink.
>Before modernists corrupted nationalism, the nation and the state were different things.
Before modernists, it was also simply understood that there were people in the state. It is true that they began to see the state as "The People", but they also didn't see it as a foreign object from outer space. The view of politics identified with a view that the family, civics, and rulers all composed of a state and were united together in a sovereign bond. Pic related and the context expressed in the earlier post. There was always a people, but the People are not rulers. They are not sovereign, but part of sovereignty. It definitely was not this concept of the nation-state, but it was unique and probably a favorable view.
>he solution to this, and what real nationalism looks like is of course libertarian nationalism, aka a "Europe of a thousand Liechtensteins" as Hoppe puts it
I wouldn't want to know Europe without empires, yet here we are. I'm not content with the libertarian version of a crypto-commune called 'covenant communties', but that's your dish. Let alone that you folks borrow the black-gold flag. Is there anyway ancaps try to be original from anarchist counterparts nowadays? Just don't copy what makes those anarchists annoying.
>the world gets smaller. In Japan you can take a bullet train from one city to another really quickly, it's a small country, but there are still specific traditions, dialects, and other niches to seperate each city and prefecture from the rest of the country
I understand where you're coming from. There is a Theodore Roosevelt speech about ditching small-town American spirit for the American nation and integrating foreigners to the "melting pot". While I see why this view is distasteful, I absolutely don't see anything to do with wiping away the whole larger scope of the nationality. I believe you can have both. And what problems we see with small towns and regional differences is attributed to an abundance of things like technology and – like you said – the globalization of the world. Frankly, I don't care what two sides of this argument have to present about muh imperialism as crypto-globalism or muh nationalism. I think both are inherently idiotic.
>>7358
>That kind of imperialism was crypto-globalism.
There have been a whole host of empires for centuries very, very long ago. What kind of garbage is this?
>>7366
Agreed.
>French Revolution
<Nationalist
Yes, the French Revolution was about "The People", but that doesn't make out the point that there will always be a people who are ruled and there will be rulers. The French Revolution believed that the People were sovereign and even the majority, a step above Hobbes, but there was always a history of popular sovereigns who were "King of the Franks" and "German Emperor". I don't know why the autist is scrambling to become a kind of anonymous peasant with local origin; the truth is there are distinct local origins and nationalities as well as far as Dante Alighieri and I would hesitate to say that these "past structures" are obscure and frankly don't have an influence. I never cared for the institutional clique and serfdom.
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No.7387
>>7386
Is also referencing >>7370
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No.7388
>>7383
Meritocracy is a pozzed term people take for granted. They highlight it in contrast to aristocracy, but meritocracy and aristocracy are somewhat synonymous terms. We think of the Age of King Louis XIV, as if all vestiges of aristocracy were removed, but they were still part of the military yes, king ruled supreme and there would be a heritage of aristocrats in military service to their king. Frankly again, there is always structure in the social realm because mankind is naturally hierarchical and is endowed with the rule of father and mother. I know that meritocracy is a pozzed term and I know the turmoil of bureaucrats. There have always been officials for kings and a people to look after, crowned with an allegiance to God.
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No.7395
>>7386
>Before modernists, it was also simply understood that there were people in the state
Before modernists, "the state" and "the king" were so far-off and unintrusive in your life that you could live half a century in your little town without knowing or caring about who your king is and what your government does. As far as the peasants were concerned, their state was either the local landlord or the mayor.
>I wouldn't want to know Europe without empires, yet here we are.
The EU? An American crypto-colony? Look, everyone agrees that a few rival empires are much better than some global one-world government (unless you're a retard) but big borders alone don't make a country great.
>I'm not content with the libertarian version of a crypto-commune called 'covenant communties'
Strawman.
>Let alone that you folks borrow the black-gold flag.
Black and gold are a sexy combination of colours.
>Is there anyway ancaps try to be original from anarchist counterparts nowadays? Just don't copy what makes those anarchists annoying.
Ad hom, strawman.
>And what problems we see with small towns and regional differences is attributed to an abundance of things like technology and – like you said – the globalization of the world. Frankly, I don't care what two sides of this argument have to present about muh imperialism as crypto-globalism or muh nationalism. I think both are inherently idiotic.
Technology and globalization are still two different things. How often do you browse Japanese websites? You probably don't, despite having the technology to do so. That's because there's no central authority to say that English must be "the official language of the internet" or some shit.
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No.7396
>>7382
>"France" is a product of the revolution.
You're a retard.
>Denial.
No, retard. Being a nationalist doesn't mean you believe everyone should be allowed to vote. They're entirely separate concepts.
>They are in bed with each-other. There was no nationalism before modernity.
There wasn't any Marxism or Fascism, either. If you think THOSE are in bed with each-other and liberalism, then you're simply beyond historically and politically illiterate.
Liberalism and the Enlightenment predate the crystallization of nationalism by centuries.
>>You do not get citizenship just for living here.
>Go look up Anchor Babies.
I said living, not being born. Plus, that's by no means universal across all nation-states.
>>He thinks Clown World isn't the fruit of "meritocracy."
It's not. The far-left hate's meritocracy because it DOESN'T level society.
>twitter comment
Trying to prop up a point I'm not arguing with.
>>7386
>There have been a whole host of empires for centuries very, very long ago.
And?
>>7388
>They highlight it in contrast to aristocracy, but meritocracy and aristocracy are somewhat synonymous terms.
In centuries that was already long gone centuries ago. There was meritocracy when being a nobleman or a king meant being part of a dedicated fighting military class. That was
pretty much entirely over by the age of nationalism.
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No.7404
>>7396
>You're a retard.
Says the whiny liberal. Anyway:
https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1146&context=honors
>No, retard. Being a nationalist doesn't mean you believe everyone should be allowed to vote. They're entirely separate concepts.
Show all the properly nationalist lands that didn't extend the franchise or otherwise yap about how all in their land are their brothers which aren't the likes of North Korea.
>There wasn't any Marxism or Fascism, either. If you think THOSE are in bed with each-other and liberalism, then you're simply beyond historically and politically illiterate.
Marxism and Fascism are both rooted in Modernity/Liberalism yeah. Marx even took enough of his ideas from earlier liberal writers.
>I said living, not being born. Plus, that's by no means universal across all nation-states.
That's what happens when you extend "citizenship" more and more.
>It's not. The far-left hate's meritocracy because it DOESN'T level society.
>pretending we still have actual monarchs and not puppets/impotent cucks like England's
>There was meritocracy when being a nobleman or a king meant being part of a dedicated fighting military class.
They accepted differences from blood and restricted who can associate with who. You can just head to Africa if you just want noble savage society.
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No.7405
>>7396
>And?
Remember how the League of Nations condemned Mussolini and the Italian Empire for expanding into Ethiopia. We have had centuries of empires and this wasn't the problem back then.
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No.7410
>>7405
>It wasn't a problem
In what regard?
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No.7411
>>7404
>https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1146&context=honors
That's talking about laying the ground work for the actual nationalist uprisings. The idea that the state exists to serve the nation is fundamentally necessary to the idea that nations should govern themselves.
>Marxism and Fascism are both rooted in Modernity/Liberalism yeah.
Alright, you're honestly beyond help. Go back to school, holy shit.
>>pretending we still have actual monarchs and not puppets/impotent cucks like England's
>If we don't have monarchs then society has been leveled
>They accepted differences from blood and restricted who can associate with who.
That came about over time, as the entire system of nobility degenerated. Regardless, that's irrelevant to what I said. The nobility ruled because they fought, and a proper military force at the time REQUIRED them to rule. There's a level of meritocracy in that, even if it's not the way we'd normally think of meritocracy now.
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No.7419
>>7411
>That's talking about laying the ground work for the actual nationalist uprisings. The idea that the state exists to serve the nation is fundamentally necessary to the idea that nations should govern themselves.
"Nations" don't govern. Select men do.
>Alright, you're honestly beyond help. Go back to school, holy shit.
>Not knowing how much Marx took from earlier writers
>Not knowing Mussolini's past
>If we don't have monarchs then society has been leveled
>Being in denial this hard.
You can't even regulate who your children can interact with reliably (hence Stacy getting AIDs from a dindu). Modernity is seriously about rejecting past order and restriction.
>That came about over time, as the entire system of nobility degenerated.
>Pretending past civilizations like the Old Egyptians, Han, Mycenaean, didn't have such behavior
>The nobility ruled because they fought, and a proper military force at the time REQUIRED them to rule. There's a level of meritocracy in that, even if it's not the way we'd normally think of meritocracy now.
You might as well praise Africa for how any two-bit warlord can chimpout and get a following.
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No.7422
>>7419
>"Nations" don't govern. Select men do.
Wordplay. You understand full well that what I mean is the idea that nations should be governed by their own people rather than foreigners.
>Twisting ideas around a new set of values means you're in bed with the thing you broke off of
>You can't even regulate who your children can interact with reliably
What the fuck does that have to do with leveling? At most you could say it's lessening the authority of the parent, but that's literally one example, and in so far as leveling is occurring their, that's the byproduct of the actual goal, which is liberty.
>>Pretending past civilizations like the Old Egyptians, Han, Mycenaean, didn't have such behavior
They degenerated too. Chinese history is/was literally based around the idea that dynasties/the old rule eventually degenerates and must be restored. History is not some single line moving in one direction.
>You might as well praise Africa for how any two-bit warlord can chimpout and get a following.
Compared to the age of degenerate absolutism that Europe had a few hundred years ago, that's pretty praiseworthy, yes.
You're not arguing against meritocracy, you're arguing that blood is merit. It's not. Merit is proven. Passing crowns and titles down from father to son was part of a method of cultivating merit. That system degenerated. The idea that blood is in and of itself merit is propaganda that was spread to prop up a disease.
Why the fuck do you think Napoleon had so much support despite taking a monarchical title without having any blood claim? He demonstrated merit through his actions. He brought the idea of being a monarch as close as he possibly could have to it's military root, and lead France to victory again and again, even if he lost in the end.
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No.7424
>>7422
very cucked opinion tbh
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No.7428
>>7422
>Wordplay. You understand full well that what I mean is the idea that nations should be governed by their own people rather than foreigners.
Irrelevant to actual history (where the likes of savages were ruled over by others).
>>Twisting ideas around a new set of values means you're in bed with the thing you broke off of
Marx simply took the tenants of liberalism much farther than his earlier writers since he had more awareness. Mussolini was a Modernist Leveler through and through.
>What the fuck does that have to do with leveling? At most you could say it's lessening the authority of the parent, but that's literally one example, and in so far as leveling is occurring their, that's the byproduct of the actual goal, which is liberty.
Next you'll be defending racemixing.
>They degenerated too. Chinese history is/was literally based around the idea that dynasties/the old rule eventually degenerates and must be restored. History is not some single line moving in one direction.
They never denied the importance of heritage and once the dynasties were in place they regulated as much of society as they can.
Tell us where the bulk of actual contributions to civilization happened by the way: Africa with its warlords or China with its emperors.
>Compared to the age of degenerate absolutism that Europe had a few hundred years ago, that's pretty praiseworthy, yes.
Tell us more on how the Congo is a better land to live in than Singapore.
>You're not arguing against meritocracy, you're arguing that blood is merit. It's not. Merit is proven. Passing crowns and titles down from father to son was part of a method of cultivating merit. That system degenerated. The idea that blood is in and of itself merit is propaganda that was spread to prop up a disease.
>NOTHING ABOUT BEHAVIOR IS HEREDITY
Years of twin studies, dysfunction in mixed race children, test scores, STEM performance, crime stats alongside the widespread failure to get non-Whites to act White (among a widespread failure to achieve non-dysfunctional multiculturalism without having a state that regulates severely) points otherwise.
http://eugenics.net/papers/pson1.html
>Why the fuck do you think Napoleon had so much support despite taking a monarchical title without having any blood claim? He demonstrated merit through his actions. He brought the idea of being a monarch as close as he possibly could have to it's military root, and lead France to victory again and again, even if he lost in the end.
>pretending Napoleon and Co. weren't opposed by reactionaries in France so hard they had to terrorize other Frenchies
>pretending Modern France isn't a burning pit filled with monkeys that Napoleon enabled.
>>7424
You're talking to a liberal.
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No.7450
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