No.104658
What do you say to all the people as of late who make the following argument:
"I used to be a libertarian, but then I realized that it's just too open. It allows people who are parasitic to its ideology to thrive, thereby eventually destroying it–" and then from this starting point, two paragraphs later end up endorsing the 25 point Nazi party platform.
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No.104661
I just realized something about your pic that I'd never noticed before. The white people on the libertarian side seem to be completely opposed to teaming up with the other white people. That's a common strawman that the fascists use, where they claim that libertarianism is atomized individuals who can't possibly team up to accomplish things (voluntarily). It's as if they don't think white people will naturally team up, and so they have to force them to team up through politics. But libertarianism has never been against teamwork, it's just been against forced teamwork since every person has the right to assemble and the right to exclude.
But to answer your question, anyone who says they used to be libertarian and is now a Nazi was never really a libertarian at heart. If they were smart they'd realize that in a libertarian country you'd have similar people naturally bunch together for the most part, and these communities would have their own culture of sorts.
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No.104662
>>104661
>If they were smart they'd realize that in a libertarian country you'd have similar people naturally bunch together for the most part, and these communities would have their own culture of sorts.
You mean a nation? Cause you just described a nation.
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No.104664
>>104658
>What do you say to all the people as of late who make the following argument:
1) Libertarianism does not preclude cooperation or collective action.
2) Anyone who says it does is a either being disingenuous or moron, or both.
3) You are lying about having been a libertarian.
4) You are a weak, pathetic little creature that brings zero value to the groups you belong to. Which is why you feel the need to assert that intrinsic characteristics are the only valid basis for collective action, since no-one can take those away from you.
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No.104666
>>104658
Retards who say things like this have only the most surface level understanding of what liberty actually entails. They've gotten so used to the government removing consequences for one's actions that they believe government is the only entity which can create consequences. Most were never libertarian at all, they just supported Ron Paul once upon a time because they half-understood his position on the Fed. Their own ideology is ironically even more vulnerable to subversion than Hoppean libertarianism is, because they have no first principles and base their ideology entirely on aesthetics and contrarianism.
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No.104667
>>104658
>Too open
What does 'too open' mean. Are they implying that its a bad thing that everyone should be free? If so, I don't think Libertarians believe that, since those who break the NAP lose their right to agency.
>People who are parasitic to its ideology
Literally who?
This sounds like a typical emotional arguement ('word salad' is the phrase in english?). Its hard to argue against this kind of language because nothing is actually being said.
The best response would probably be to not respond, or, respond with an equally emotional arguement, like how people can be equally parasitic to facism - since there is concentration of power, and thus more corruption.
>pic
Also this "Libertarianism is a pipeline to fascism" meme is fucking retarded. These ideologies are completely oppossed. It would make more sense saying that socialism is a pipeline to fascism, since that is the implied outcome of a socialist state.
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No.104668
>>104664
Forgot to delete the name field from another thread.
>>104662
>You mean a nation? Cause you just described a nation.
A covenant community is not a nation.
A nation's borders are arbitrary. It is full of people who just so happen to live there and may not share the goals or ideals of the nation; see leftism corroding the constitution of the United States and its ideals of limited government and personal responsibility.
The greatest irony behind the sentiment expressed in your OP might be that, by assuming racial homogeneity will bring unity of purpose to the community, the ethno-nationalists are opening themselves up to exactly the kind of subversion that they claim libertarian communities are so vulnerable to.
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No.104669
>>104668
>doesn't understand the difference between a nation and a country
Still slightly less retarded than lefties, I guess.
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No.104670
>>104669
If I'd meant nation-state or country I would have said that.
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No.104671
>>104670
Tell us the difference, then.
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No.104674
>>104670
Clearly you must have, since you claim that a nation has arbitrary borders, that a person that does not adhere to the goals of the nation can be part of the nation, and that leftists are part of the US """"nation""""
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No.104677
>>104662
Call it what you will, but the point is that in a libertarian society you have the ability to "vote with your feet" so to speak, whereby any person who doesn't like the ideals of their current community can move to a different one - provided they have the means - that is better suited to their tastes. They can even band together and make their own new community, or just live on their own property and not be subject to someone else's rules. Think of it like a bunch of HOAs, you can choose to live in one and have the benefits/drawbacks that come with it or choose not to.
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No.104678
>>104662
No, nations are much larger than one's Dunbar Number. What orangefag described is closer to tribalism. Nations are an attempt to bring disparate tribes together under a common, centralizing government. The centralization kills the differentiation that the different locales have, turning them into a homogenized blob of tax cattle. The creation of nation states represents everything that is wrong with globalism, but on a smaller scale.
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No.104679
>>104671
>nation
The people.
>country
The geographical area
>state
An entity which possesses a monopoly on violence within said area.
>>104674
>Clearly you must have, since you claim that a nation has arbitrary borders,
Borders are ideas that separate groups of people as much as physical barriers or lines on maps.
>that a person that does not adhere to the goals of the nation can be part of the nation, and that leftists are part of the US """"nation""""
Are you implying they are not? Now I want to know how you define nationality.
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No.104680
>>104678
>orangefag
Rude. Also >>104661 wasn't me so idk what you're referring to when you say I was describing tribalism.
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No.104682
>>104680
>Calling someone ___fag is rude
You need to lurk a bit more, friend. And you are right, that wasn't your post but you did describe covenant communities here >>104668 , which I consider to be the modern equivalent to tribes.
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No.104686
>>104677
I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I find libertarianism to be a near perfect match with fascism as oxymoronic as it sounds for authoritarianism to mesh at all with libertarianism and have a hard time understanding the animosity.
Libertarianism allows for free association and disassociation, meaning the fascists can form their nation-state within the libertarian framework, and since fascism should not want anyone not of the nation to be part of the nation they should not threaten those rights of others.
>>104679
>Borders are ideas that separate groups of people
But are those metaphysical borders arbitrary if they separate groups by shared identity, and the physical borders determined by property of the nation-members.
>Are you implying they are not?
A hypothetical US nation would likely center around the founding principles and/or the constitution.
If leftists do not adhere to he principles which define the nation, then they can not be considered part of that nation.
>Now I want to know how you define nationality.
A nation being a group of people who identity with, and recognize that identity in each other through ethnicity, religion, culture, ideology, and/or otherwise.
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No.104690
>>104686
>and have a hard time understanding the animosity.
Ironically, that compatability is part of the reason for the animosity. Fascists and NEETSocs fervently believe that they are the edgiest around, the most contrarian goys around, and the One True Redpill™. Hoppean ancapistan is a direct competitor to this, except its internally consistent, based on first principles, doesn't involve the shibboleth of WW2 imagery, and even manages to be edgier. It's basically the goals of fascism, but actually achievable, and without autism or LARPing. This makes the fascists butthurt, so they try to convince themselves and would-be converts that ancaps are cucks and they're the only viable option.
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No.104691
>>104682
I know it's not rude, I was just joking.
>I consider to be the modern equivalent to tribes
Yeah I agree to an extent. I'd say tribes are covenant communities that were put into practical use by people who could not fully articulate the concept.
>>104686
>A nation being a group of people who identity with, and recognize that identity in each other through ethnicity, religion, culture, ideology, and/or otherwise.
Okay, well we seem to just have different definitions then.
When I talk about a nation I'm describing groups of people that have been bought together by circumstance, usually by the actions of a state. That they share some values is a consequence of the fact that they need to interact with one another repeatedly; that is to say, the nation produces shared identity as a consequence of existing, and not the other way around.
A group of people who come together because they share an identity in the first place, on the other hand, is best described as a gemeinschaft/community imo. When the community has an expressly stated code that they expect you to follow, i.e. a covenant, it is a covenant community. If the basis for the community is racial it is a volkish community (volksgemeinshaft) etc.
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No.104692
>>104686
Every ideology meshes well with Libertarianism, since it allows you to surround yourself with like-minded people, then form your own private community with its own rules, etc. The inverse isn't true though, since having a centralized ideological state means that people are forced to assosiate with whoever the state wants them to. Honestly, if you want your form of whatever government, it would be much easier to achieve it under ancap - owning, or joining a community of neets, rather than trying to govern an entire nation by removing non-neets.
This is the biggest difference that ancap has compared to other ideologies, since ancap is not actually an ideology in itself; rather a framework that allows everyone to pursue like-minded communities (maybe you would call them nations?) easiest.
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No.104725
Libertarians are right about some things but they also believe in corporate freedom of association, which is why they'll kick the Nazi before the the faggot because it appeals to a greater democracy in esssence.
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No.104727
>>104725
>they also believe in corporate freedom of association
You're going to have to properly define your meme term before you use it if you wish to be understood.
> they'll kick the Nazi before the the faggot
Wrong.
>because it appeals to a greater democracy in esssence
Libertarians are not sympathetic to democracy, therefore your argument has no basis.
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No.104729
>>104667
>>People who are parasitic to its ideology
>Literally who?
Socialists and communists.
But seriously, even if you had housing associations separated by political ideology, wouldn't it still be in your best interest to absolutely squash the socialist associations? Because socialist associations always result in force to maintain themselves (I would say it's an economic inevitability).
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No.104730
>>104729
>Socialists and communists.
All of which would have starved to death in ancapistan since there's no state to provide them with other people's money.
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No.104732
>>104730
>since there's no state to provide them with other people's money.
The vast majority of socialists and communists today are funded by trust fund kiddos. I don't think a State is necessary for stupid ideas to flourish. Only obscene amounts of wealth for at least a temporary amount of time is necessary. As such, if anything, I would argue that ancapistan would have an even larger problem of subversive communist factions.
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No.104734
>>104732
>I don't think a State is necessary for stupid ideas to flourish
Do you think the aforementioned trust fund babies would have gotten those ideas if the education system wasn't thoroughly co-opted by the state? They only follow these ideas because they are made to appear fashionable. They are fashionable because the Jew-infested, rent-seeking media portray it as such. Remove those elements and all meaningful subversion goes with them. The state is not only necessary for stupid ideas to flourish, it is the only place where stupid ideas flourish instead of being stamped out within a generation.
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No.104751
>>104734
The only way that's going to be possible, then, is if you have a worldwide ancapism. If there's even one State that can fund subversive socialist activism, well, you get what happened to medieval Iceland and Ireland, I suppose.
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No.104752
>>104729
It would be in your best interest to leave them be unless they break the NAP. Let them extort their voluntary citizenry and watch as they slowly starve. If they don't see that communism is wrong it's their own fault. But the very instant that one of them tries to use force to make you join their shenanigans they've broken the NAP and are subject to retaliation.
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No.105012
It is a left wing myth to discredit libertarianism and alt-cucks bought into it because they pretend people and/or groups are secretly on their side when they really aren’t. It’s just something they do and sometimes it’s funny.
For a more nuanced answer, there are two paths one must travel to achieve hoppean enlightenment: the cultural/societal path and the economic/ethical path. Some form of the alt-right is a brief stop on the cultural path, but once someone has taken the ancap redpill there is no going back. Take Cantwell, who is (a fed) more of a nazi than most of the alt-right. But he was once a libertarian and still views all of his actions as a means to achieve ancapistan.
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No.105014
>>104751
That's a stupid conclusion to reach. Without a state apparatus, there's nothing to subvert, outside funding or no outside funding. Left-wing agitators have no power of their own, only the power to pressure the state into carrying out their wishes. Without a state to do so, they are impotent, even if some outside state decides (for whatever improbable reason) to fund them.
Commonwealth Iceland and Gaelic Ireland both survived for centuries before they were attacked by a military force. To claim that these examples disprove the practical efficacy of ancapistan is also stupid, because it fetishizes the seen at the end of the unseen. In either case, the existence of a state would not have made their survival more likely. Since they would have been conquered either way, state or no state, it does not follow that these were "failures" of liberty, since there is nothing a state could have done to alleviate the situation.
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