/k/ - Weapons

>>655690

The Ross is one of the best bolt action rifles ever made. It just had a small flaw that no one considered an issue because everyone assumed that newfies wouldn't fuck it up. But newfies fuck everything up. Everything.

And the Enfield is a better rifle than the Mauser or the Springfield that copied a lot from the Mauser.

Hell, I'd say the Gewehr 1888 superior to the Gewehr 98 in many ways, especially it's method of clip loading. The magazine issue could have been easily fixed with spring loaded cover that only opened when an empty clip was pushed out.

>>656092

Ross's don't handle dirt well at all, a rifle that was built for someone blasting bambi and bullwinkle with the best quality of ammunition not rolling around in filth using shit a somali would turn down.

>>655940

Don't think fudds shoot their guns enough to fuck a receiver, not to mention it was the Winchester Model 70 that used a Mauser bolt until they decided to cut cost.

My 2 cents:

While I am inclined to agree with with the assessment of the Enfield as the top military bolt action rifle (even though I hunted deer for years with an Arisaka), I have to say that comparing the old military bolt action rifles to today's modern bolt action rifles is almost apples to oranges, especially when all of the factors are taken into consideration.

When you consider things like the trigger, the price, the reliability, the quality of the materials, the engineering, the weight, in addition to the accuracy and the ballistic performance, you get a much different picture.

The Winchester XPR 7mmRM for example, is sub-MOA @200 yards out of the box, is largely Browning tech and engineering (the tolerances would make the even the Germans applaud), and can be had for less than $500. Three-lug bolt (again, Browning), that sweet-ass Winchester trigger…I'd have a hard time saying that the Enfield is better or worse, simply because they are two completely different pieces of equipment, designed in completely different eras, and for completely different purposes. I guess my point here is that asking what is the best bolt action rifle is like asking what the best internal combustion vehicle is. It is a vague and ambiguous question that can not be meaningfully answered without additional parameters. Otherwise you are going to be seeing one anon say "Pontiac GTO" and another anon saying "1972 Formula 1", and another anon saying "Evinrude 2-stroke", etc.

>>656197

>implying there is any correct answer besides the GTO

Don't insult my 455 waifu.

>>656197

>1972 Formula 1

based. Shame the /f1/ board died

>>656166

>Don't think fudds shoot their guns enough to fuck a receiver

Mausers are, or were, the most common fudd gun to require headspace adjustment from gunsmiths. Mostly sentimental reasons, and it was done until it was clearly unsafe in which they bought another to repeat the process.

>not to mention it was the Winchester Model 70 that used a Mauser bolt until they decided to cut cost.

It's not the form but where it came from. German and Spanish Mausers are resilient only in that they bend rather than break(those would be the Swedish Mausers).

So the first thing you need to know is that Mausers are like AKs, in that they were produced by so many different outfits that generalizing about them is fairly problematic

So instead I will make a few specific statements

First, the primary issue with many Mausers is accuracy, and with all Mausers, speed.

There is nothing about the Mauser action that prohibits an accurate weapon, as evidenced by the Swedish Mauser (which can hold less than 1 MOA with modern ammo), and the various post-war adaptations of surplus Mauser actions as hunting and precision weapons.

So the biggest problem child were the various Mauser carbines of West and Central Europe, and specifically the K98k

Today, we free-float guns to isolate barrel harmonics

However, at the time there was a lesser understanding of barrel harmonics, and guns were carefully bedded and in some cases partially floated (e.g., Finn M39) to produce an accurate, consistent weapon

The M39 in particular has the front stock-barrel junction situated on a node in the barrel, to isolate the stock as much as possible from the barrel vibrations

which is why it has an oddball 27.something inch barrel

Many of the carbines, including the K98k throughout its production run, were not bedded properly nor were they arranged in this way. They were simply cut down long rifles in design, with little care paid to how that would affect the gun as a rifle. This was because the designs usually started off as echelon weapons and got issued as standard rifles only beginning in the late/mid 1930s

The K98k also had numerous other issues, such as with truing the receiver face, bolt lug engagement, etc.

They were just fairly crudely made overall with little attention to accuracy-affecting detail

All Mausers suffer in the speed department. The design is optimized to survive a total cartridge failure without breaking or injuring the shooter

This was a big concern in the 1890s, so this is no real surprise. By the way, that is not unique to the Mauser, the Mosin for example has many of the same features (and I've actually had a case failure with a Mosin and was fine)

Mausers have a 90-degree bolt turn and bolt handle placement that blocks the sights in the "unlocked" position, regardless of straight or bent bolt handle configuration

The action stroke is also approx 0.75" longer than something like an Enfield or MAS, due to the front-locking arrangement

The Mauser 98 (but not the 96) is also cock-on-open, which slows the action down. Mauser fanboys will insist they can run cock-on-open faster, but that is bullshit. It's obvious to anyone examining the actual kinematics that cocking a striker by ramming your palm forward is faster and surer than trying to crank a bolt handle up

anywa

the Mauser has a very slow action and most production Mausers are embarrassingly inaccurate (6-8 MOA)

More critically, than the slowness of the action is the poor target re-acquisition

Because the sights are completely blocked during operation, a Mauser shooter cannot simultaneously work the bolt and perform target re-acquisition

This and the other characteristics of the action have led many people to work the bolt from the pocket, effectively they are shooting, pulling the guns butt down into the crutch of their arm, operating the action, shouldering the rifle, and re-engagin

this gives the user a bit more leverage and surety when operating the action, but it's also significantly slower than what is possible with a Lee-Enfield

However, because the Mauser's bolt blocks the sights, it's not much slower than shooting a Mauser from the shoulder, so many people (including professional guides in Africa) practice this for the greater loading surety

With a Lee-Enfield, however, you can work the bolt from the shoulder without losing your sight picture - with a little practice

This means you can perform operation of the action and target re-acquisition more or less simultaneously

your sights are already coming back on target before the bolt handle is locked

This is what enables the (historical*) "Mad Minute" maneuver of aimed fire with a L-E

*Mauser fans also insist the Mad Minute is fiction, but it's historically attested and maintained in British marksmanship traditions so that's just counterfactual

The primary issue with the Mausers of Central/Western Europe during the interwar and WWII period was quality

The Czech and Yugo Mausers of the pre-war period tend to be quite good, though not as refined as the Swedish ones.

Also it's worth remembering that for many of these guns, the barrels were crap

Tbh, none of these Western/Central European armies expected their troops to be able to shoot hardly at all (little or no marksmanship tradition) so the dispersion of the guns was not considered an issue

this is obvious if you look at the standards they held

Bloke has done a lot of research into this, and he found that the accuracy standard for the No. 4 infantry rifle was tighter than the standard for Kar98k sniper rifles.

>>657084

>This is what enables the (historical*) "Mad Minute" maneuver of aimed fire with a L-E

>*Mauser fans also insist the Mad Minute is fiction, but it's historically attested and maintained in British marksmanship traditions so that's just counterfactual

15 rounds fired in one minute at 300 yards from the prone position is as impractical as it sounds, if you want to go by the actual written placement requirements. It's also hardly a notable point when the entirety of placement requires using all of your allowed 250 rounds across all tests.

If you go by the American standard of "dump all of your 250 rounds with a sub-MOA group at 500 yards standing and in CQB position while balancing an egg on a spoon between your teeth" then it's even more ridiculous.

>>659928

A roller bearing can't actually roll when it's sliding in a groove like that. It's basically acting as a glorified bushing and there's no utility in it except marketing.

>>650817

White Army used it too, also the Finns used them during the continuation war and Germans had plenty of captured nuggets

>>659886

It looks like I've found my answer, although with a completely unrelated firearm. Also, I think I'm in love.

>>650817

The Finnish Mosins are actually good though.

>>659936

It will roll when it only bears on one side of the slot.

https://www.full30.com/watch/MDE5NzY3/heym-sr30-straight-pull-ball-bearing-lock

The Heym SR30 looks really good

>>664862

Should be easy to adapt that to semi-auto use similar to roller-locking, and much more cheaply and effectively.

Interesting.

>>653125

It got showcased by a few youtubers, and for at least a short period afterwards it achieved minor memetic status as the best bolt rifle ever made, that can shoot anyone and anything from 6 gorrillion miles away.

>>650829

Nice. But seems like a whole lot of unnecessary accessories for a fucking bolt action.

>>650822

This. I don't see How they would be useful.

>>659928

Only works for 50bmg cause its too expensive to fire more than 15 shots a year. If you did that to a more common caliber you would wear out your berings.

>>662342

The Schlegelmilch looks like an absolutely beautiful no-frills rifle. With a little more love & care, and considering there are no specifically known problems, it could easily have supplemented or replaced the Gewehr 98 line with some retrospective and have obsoleted the late WW2 Volksgewehr line of last-ditch/cost saving bolt action weapons if there was time to tool for this cheaper and tidier gun in the period from 1920-1940. The only thing that irks me, and irked at least one man in the comments, is the charger bridge serving to dump mud off the bolt shroud into the action. You'd have to initially charge the rifle holding sideways or upside down as the comments note in order to get it clean after hitting the dirt, something that can be trained for but ideally you don't want the extra procedure.

Since the design of the shroud, peeking bolt head and deep barrel lock preclude a Mauser style integral rear bridge, could there perhaps be a 'skeletal' front charger bridge that pulls backward for use and is automatically shoved back into storage by the bolt? Sort of like how the Hakim rifle has a pivoting charger guide rather than a fixed one, the Schlegelmilch improved could have its guide stored forward running laterally across or to one or either side of the barrel extension/battery, the only problem being how to get it to be a decently sturdy stamped piece or a close to waste free small machined one that also doesn't interfere with the sightline. After that, it's just a question of cutting down the charger bridge into a pair of non-wraparound track guides, and the rifle is mud free; the bridge is inessential to retaining the bolt with the secondary sear style bolt stop and good track fit doing all the work. Plus, you shave off that little bit more steel from the final and already quite lean receiver, and possibly from the initial required block size to boot.

>>654884

heck is that knife?

and that wife?

Would someone happen to know how the ball bearings come out the bolt of this rifle? Do they just fall out on the back once the firing pin is removed?

>>666576

>the charger bridge serving to dump mud off the bolt shroud into the action

I think these concerns are a bit "over the top". But even if it's really that much of a problem, then you have to remember that the charger bridge seems to be an afterthought. A possible solution would be to rivet it to the end of the bolt shroud, which is quite similar to how it works on that Swedish rifle that the Hakim is based on.

>>669057

I'm somehow suspicious of the Hakim guide design, it has this flimsy air about it. Maybe it's just first impression prejudice leading to me trying to think out an alternative. But you'd also have to flip the bridge up manually before sending the bolt home if you don't want to jam it in battery, that's the main reason I think it shouldn't be directly copied, as it's an extra motion or modification of motion after charging the rifle that can get in the way of smooth operation under duress. Plus, where and how would it fit?

I'm trying to wrap my head around this, but the shroud and barrel extension are making this an impossible riddle. The wraparound bridge is a vector for mud & dirt, an afterthought and a problem to be solved. A skeletal charger bridge that pulls back from the barrel extension is slightly flimsy and just in the way. You can't use a Hakim bridge even past my reservations because the shroud surface is so far behind the bolthead. You can't really have springloaded prongs to the internal side of the shroud like I've been thinking on because they potentially won't narrow up enough to get to the chargers' dimensions without getting in front of the bolt in a way you don't want. And I don't think you can do an integral charger bridge on the receiver body, because it will either be in the way of the bolt or the magazine floorplate or just not be very effective in its compromised position.

Could it possibly become a machined part of the overall bolt face dimensions, integral or composite? On the one hand, that would be really weird as a solution and possibly impose more machining work at the extension/battery end to allow little charger forks to fit, hurting the time & skilled labor savings earned through the simplified receiver. On the other, the Mauser got away with its big brawny active extractor arm just fine, and this would just be two similar pieces ever so slightly further forward and spaced to accept a charger clip instead of to grab and kick out cartridges. If it's nonintegral like the Mauser extractor, have the back ends of the charger claws compress and decompress a simple coil spring for battery & ready positions respectively, and you're golden.

Whatever the case, after you figure out the deal with the charger bridge, you can go the extra mile with the simple Schlegelmilch receiver/magwell by modifying to accept quick detach magazines of a standard type, being for a WW2 period scenario the G43 pattern for 8mm Mauser and StG-44 for Kurz, and you have lots of production rationalizations for the perfect militia, trainer & ersatz line bolt rifle, with probably no performance losses over the 98 Mauser in military contexts and the ability to slowly phase out the old line completely. A few drops spilled out of the bucket of resource & labor starvation.

>>664968

>>651019

>>653125

>it achieved minor memetic status as the best bolt rifle ever made, that can shoot anyone and anything from 6 gorrillion miles away.

The problem is… it kind of is.

Even those well shot are 1 MOA and GP11 7.5 Swiss is match grade ammo right out of the surplus box, add the straight pull, the detachable mags + clips and no doubt have the best bolt action mass produced.

>>667017

>he hasn't seen soranowoto

>>651103

>>650790

muh nigs, I love this rifle. I can get mine to 8 though; you have to hold the rounds down to get that last little bit of compression on the spring and the bolt still closes properly. I had to replace all the furniture on it, and it hasn't been fudded. The ears on the irons are still intact.

>>672825

Read this: https://lee-enfield.org/useful-links/53-charger-clips

>>672828

Or don't. I should be sleeping by now anyway.

>>672833

Also I'm fucking short if anyone thinks the sling is on funny… I have it adjusted for my short arms.

How do you improve on the bolt action rifle?

>>673021

Some sort of detachable camping chair and foldable bench rest. It would be a luxury bolt action rifle, walk into combat, it's like you're at the gun range.

>>673021

In what way? As an infantry rifle? A DMR? A precision distance gun?

<Infantry rifle

>Chambered in something hotter and flatter shooting than 7.62x39mm but not into full size territory.

>Detachable mags (10 round capacity standard) and stripper clip guide.

>Cock on close. Mauser style extractor/ejector.

>Forward mounted red dot or low magnification and illuminated long eye relief scope.

>Simple brake or flash hider. Must be able to fire rifle grenades with regular ammo.

>Bayonet lug.

>16-18 inch barrel.

>Spacers for adjusting length of pull and cheek riser.

>Flashlight.

<DMR

>Chambered in a full power rifle round.

>1-8 power scope.

>Detachable mag.

>Bipod and barricade rest.

>Flash hider and/or suppressor.

>18 inch free floated heavy barrel.

>Bayonet lug.

>Cock on close. Mauser style extractor/ejector.

>Cheek riser and length of pull spacers.

>IR/visible laser.

<Distance precision gun.

>Chambered in a belted magnum or similar round.

>Free floated 24-26 inch barrel. Or 18 inch free floated heavy barrel. Could go crazy and carbon wrap it.

>3-12/4-16 scope. Rail space for clip on NVG/Thermal/monocular (can't remember the correct name for those monoculars that add more drop compensation).

>Laser rangefinder.

>Cock on close. Mauser style extractor/ejector.

>Quick release bipod and mount that can be placed on a tripod.

>Detachable mags.

>Flash hider and/or suppressor.

>Pistol gripped folding stock with adjustable LOP and cheek riser.

>>673077

Your first sounds like a zastava mini mauser in 6.5 with a few more fun things added.

>>653241

Direct energy weapons. That's what the u.s.a.p. fags use.

>>680565

What would you modify? I'm personally thinking about using it in a Lewis gun/FG-42 type action, so the whole thing would be nothing but the bolt body, the ball bearings (8 of them, because 7 is just weird), and the firing pin (with possibly a spring). Then you need an arm on the gas piston to connect the two together, but that's not really a part of the bolt.

>>680567

The firing pin, like in most bolt actions, is too long imo, it could shortened & cupped

The removal & simplification of the other small parts in the back of the bolt would be good too, small parts break & never come out, and fouling sticks them stuck; I imagine sustained fire in an autoloader would wear the parts to failure too

I mean, in terms of accuracy and range, the M200 Intervention is probally the most accurate man-portable rifle in existence (if you consider a nearly 30lbs rifle unloaded "portable), with the proper loading and calculations

In terms of overall quality, really any mauser action rifle

Smle is the best because of rapid fire and the fact that you don't have to move your face out of the way when you cycle the bolt

>>689056

Any Mannlicher-Schoenauer, really. this is the correct answer.