/hikki/ - Hikikomori

>>7638

>Link?

Something like this

https://twitter.com/eelzap/status/677432696713252864

Or this.

https://desuarchive.org/r9k/thread/51024081/#51024081

Or even pic related.

>>7637

I don't know how people can't understand that. It's a very strict definition, and it's not like it's an accomplishment. Maybe they are just stupid, or something. Maybe they go to places that use the term incorrectly. I don't know. Even when I first heard the word hikikomori, I immediately knew that I wasn't one because I was still going to school. Though I did have the feeling that I would end up like that, and of course, that's exactly what happened. It was inevitable, really. Having a somewhat normal life is just not possible for me, and that will probably force me to kill myself eventually. It's some serious shit, so it's annoying when people use the term so lightly. Not that I see it happen too often, because I don't go to that many boards and websites.

>>7642

>I don't know how people can't understand that. It's a very strict definition, and it's not like it's an accomplishment.

I know right i really fucking hate when i get accused of gatekeeping how the fuck do you gatekeep a psychological problem? i get that some cases of hikikomori are less extreme than others as most of us do still go outside and are not all peeing in bottles collecting trash and having our parents put food at our room doors for us if anything those cases of hikikomori are actually very rare regardless though my point is you're right that it is a very strict definition it means to be isolated at home in your room not going to school or work and have very minimal or no social contact outside the house for very long period at a time.I would say in my case i have very minimal social contact outside the house as i do leave the house occasionally but its mostly after dark to buy groceries once a month or once or twice a week i sometimes walk to McDonald's and on rare occasions my parents will come visit me after months of not seeing them and they will take me out for lunch or take me somewhere and i will get cleaned up and get a haircut and a shave and 2 years ago i still had 2 friends who i would still go see every 8 months but 2 years have past and now i haven't seen them in 2 years i now have no friends my parents really didn't consider my isolation a problem in the beginning because on the surface it didn't seem like a problem but after a few events happened in my life in 2018 now they are trying to understand it when they clearly do not realize that they are part of the reason i am this way.

>>7643

>a psychological problem

I would say that it's more of a symptom than anything. Way too many possible reasons to end up isolated. A physical disability would be enough, like a severe case of having no legs. In my case, I just can't handle it. My mind can't deal with it. Leaving the house is a goddamn nightmare. There is nothing good outside, just a chaotic mess that drives me crazy. Just people that I hate, noise, incompetence, and frustration. I have no friends either, but going outside won't change that, because I never met people that I could form a connection with offline, even when I was young, and now it's even more unlikely. I have a hard time believing that normal people are actually sentient, so fuck them.

At least here I can distract myself and try to forget how fucked I am, and on the internet, I have control over who I interact with. Going outside just reminds me of my fucked up fate, makes me ask myself how I'm going to survive. I can't stop thinking about slitting my own throat, or hanging myself, or jumping in front of a train, or blowing up the planet with nuclear weapons. In my case, it's definitely psychological. Not going insane is not that easy, in my case. Being a hikikomori is generally a sign that there is some serious shit going on with someone. Treating it like a joke is part of the problem.

>not all peeing in bottles

Funnily enough, I only did that before becoming a hikikomori, when I didn't have my own bathroom for a while.

>>7645

>Way too many possible reasons to end up isolated. A physical disability would be enough, like a severe case of having no legs.

Actually the Japanese government doesn't consider people who are withdrawn because of a physical condition or another psychological problem to be hikikomori.

https://hapila.jp/cause-social-withdrawal

内閣府は「子ども・若者白書」を2013年6月に発表しました。その中では若年層の引きこもりについての分析が行われています。その調査の中では引きこもりを下記のように定義しています。

・15歳から39歳が対象

・下記状況のいずれかが半年以上継続している

・普段は自宅にいるが、近所のコンビニなどには出かける

・自室からは出るが、自宅からは出ない

・自室からほとんど出ない（準引きこもり）

普段は家に居るが、自分の趣味に関する用事の時だけ外出する（上記にあてはまる場合でも、「現在の状態のきっかけ」に統合失調症または身体的な病気と答えた人、自宅で仕事をしていると答えた人、「ふだん自宅にいるときによくしていること」で家事・育児をすると答えた人は除かれます。）

The Cabinet Office announced the "Children and Youth White Paper" in June 2013. Among them are analysis of withdrawals of young people. In the survey, withdrawal is defined as follows.

・ For 15 to 39 years old

・ One of the following situations continues more than half a year

・ I usually stay at home, but I go out to a nearby convenience store

・ I get out of my room but not from home

・ I hardly get out of my room (semi-withdrawal)

I usually stay at home, but I go out only at the time of my hobby-related work (even in the case of the above, people who answered that they had schizophrenia or physical illness as "the cause of their present condition", worked at home Those who answered that they are doing household chores / childcare by “what they usually do when they are at home” are excluded.)

>>7647

>Can autistic people never be hikikomoris? That would be kinda funny.

Not exactly true in-fact some researchers have suggested that hikikomori suffers may be affected by autism spectrum disorders and other disorders which may affect social integration.

> To me it just sounds like some idiots in Japan think that being a hikikomori has no cause at all. That people are isolating themselves for no reason. That's probably where this confusion comes from, just a lack of understanding the issue

They mainly are only excluding schizophrenics people in a depressive state for only a short period like 3 months or less retired old people people who have physical issues like a broken leg and can not leave home for that reason housewives people who just like to stay home but while they are at home they do house chores take care of their kids and other normalfag stuff and people who work from home but still leave to go to the office Japanese researchers do not consider these types of people to be hikikomori not every recluse in Japan is called a hikikomori and Japan has their own words for recluse and hermit 世捨て人 is recluse and 隠者 is hermit and as far as the psychological problem issue it doesn't mean that hikikomori aren't mentally ill at all of course not what they actually mean is that another disorder can not be the direct cause or only cause behind the isolation because hikikomori has not one single cause like other disorders hikikomori is different from other types of isolation such as agoraphobia schizophrenia or social phobias and usually mainly the result of the social pressure of being unable to keep a a public face within society along with stress/pressure from a job or school bullying having no friends or social connections and other psychological issues like autism or depression that may or may not play a role in the persons withdrawal it is very complex and hard to fully understand because every case of hikikomori is different in some way and a 2007 study separated hikikomori suffers into 2 categories Primary hikikomori and hikikomori with HPDD Primary hikikomori are people who are not diagnosed or do not display symptoms of another disorder hikikomori with HPDD are people who have another disorder.

>Well I say that a hikikomori is a person that doesn't leave the house for any reason except things like avoiding starvation (buying food) if they live alone. Being a NEET is a requirement, unless you work from home somehow like Tatsuhiko Takimoto (well, I don't know if he still writes LNs, actually). The reason kinda has to involve the mind, because normal people do go outside, so there has to be a difference there,

This is a huge common misconception because its actually not not leaving your house its not leaving the room you withdraw yourself up into in the house you live in and not leaving that room unless for like you said food the pulling inward being confined translation gets taken out of context a lot.

>Just wait until you're 40 and you're not a hikikomori anymore. You are now suddenly normal. Problem solved,

Well they were mainly doing studies on the youth suffering with the issue back in 2013 back then it was still mainly thought to be mostly a problem faced by young people just recently in March they actually found 610,000 middle-aged people between 40 to 64 living as hikikomori in Japan.

>>7650

>As long as they stick to Reddit or wherever, I don't really care. It only gets bad if they actually infest places I actually visit.

I actually agree with you that is why i hate r/hikikomori and r/neet too many kids think they are neet because they are on a 3 month summer vaction away from school or think they are hikikomori even though they still leave to go to work or school they are retarded.

>>7751

>i am glad that garbage website is gone

That too but I meant the person

>mfw The raging contempt & disdain I feel whenever I see anyone on Reddit, YouTube, or most other places, make the outrageous claim of being hikikomori, or even partial hikikomori, when it's patently obvious they have no idea what they're talking about and have never experienced any kind of true isolation or estrangement from the world and are just using the term as a cheap way to draw attention to themselves, cheapening & diluting the definition of the word so it can basically be applied to anyone thereby making it worthless just so they can bitch about their normalfag crap, while usurping whatever it is that they please in the process to make them feel special. If they they knew even one fucking ounce of what's it's really like they'd probably run screaming in horror, seeing it as the most heinous torture imaginable. Which would mostly be due to, again, their complete lack of ability to handle & cope with true isolation the way an actual hikikomori has to try to because there's simply no other choice, beyond coping with escapism. The ability to do so in the first place being granted by, of course, the magnanimity of one's parents.

>mfw The raging contempt & disdain I feel at basically anyone these days, outside of here & Wizchan, claiming to be struggling with mental illness, depression, or anxiety (etc.), since, again, it's basically now become a fucking fashion statement for normalfags to dress themselves in & parade around in some sickening quest for attention, building & adorning their pathetic little monuments to themselves with whatever it is they can grab. It sickens me to the absolute core & I despise their wretched fakeness & their profound ignorance of what actual, lifelong alienation is like. Reducing pain & misery to a some shallow affectation, to be taken on & off like a ring or an earring. Damn them for their vanity. Damn them for violating & cheapening everything. Damn to the real hell they pretend to experience, or think, in willful ignorance, they're experiencing right now, when in actuality it's nothing compared to what most of us here go through. Either way, I'll never take 99% of these people seriously because, fundamentally, they'll never know the true agony of being fucked right from the start and never having a chance and having your own mind & genetics work against you at every turn, while suffering myriad forms of external suffering (bullying, poverty, abuse etc.)

Having said all that, I'll also freely admit that I'm kind of a narcissist myself who can't really appreciate or truly understand anyone's pain, but mine. In that sense, I've sorta of always been passively contemptuous of anyone else's problems, but my own. As egotistical & solipsistic as it sounds, no one knows true pain & depression except for me and, in some ways, it's actually true, since I can only know for certain that I exist, therefore only my feelings are valid. I'll never understand or appreciate another person's problems, nor will they ever truly appreciate or understand mine. The only way you ever could is with a Vulcan mind meld, or something to that affect, where you exchange & feel for yourself the other person's thoughts & feelings & vice versa. Then again, maybe I just lack basic empathy, which could certainly be the case as well.

Hell, when it comes to who's hikikomori or not, if I'm being frank, I don't even consider Satou to be a real hikikomori. Literally in the first episode of the anime, he goes job hunting by himself in broad daylight. Even when I first watched it, I was like "WTF? I couldn't do that in a million years, perhaps not even if my life depended on it! And this bastard's supposed to be a hikikomori? Give me a fucking break!". I mean fuck, not only that, Satou doesn't even live with his parents & goes out constantly in the anime/manga, often in broad daylight all by himself, something I haven't done in 12 fucking years for crying out loud. Satou is a socially awkward NEET at best and certainly not a hikikomori as far as I'm concerned. Only in brief spurts or scenes does Satou truly resemble a hikikomori (like when he's addicted to that MMO and never leaves his room there for a while). Writing a story or making a show about a real hikikomori would be nauseating to the general public so the author probably had to tone down Satou in some sense to basically just be a NEET, just so there'd be a story to tell, beyond him just sitting around doing nothing all day. Now that I think about it, part of the reason why most people mistake themselves to be hikikomori is probably because they see shit like NHK and some socially awkward NEET like Satou who still has a couple friends, romantic interests and can still go out on a somewhat regular basis, and then come away with the impression that, that's what a hikikomori is. In the end, I'd actually blame that more than anything for this kind of frustrating confusion.

>>7767

(cont…)

I'm also going to quote some other anon's post I saw once elsewhere that touches on this as well:

>Satou is not a hikikomori past the first episode. He goes out every day, in broad daylight, in public, often socializing with a close circle of friends (Yamazaki, Misaki, Senpai) or others. He talks on the phone all the time. His anxiety is moderate and not debilitating at all. Satou isn't a social butterfly by any means, but he's socially competent enough to function in society, have a relationship, have a job when he can get around to applying for one, etc. Satou's biggest problem is that he's not very intelligent and he fucks up the opportunities that are handed to him on a silver platter. If he wasn't comically inept at managing his life, he could have gotten a job and gotten into a relationship with Misaki, who was obviously interested in him from the start.

I'd also argue that Hitmoi's brother was a far better example of a hikikomori, but in the anime they barely touch on him and in the manga he becomes a successful genius, literally overnight, in probably one of the most jarring & insulting 180s I've ever seen.

Even the Japanese government's definition of hikikomori is becoming a complete farce, now including people who still wander around or go to convenience stores every night to be hikikomori, while then excluding those with severe mental health issues, but whom are actual hikikomori. I'm not trying to be some puritanical asshole, but, christ, you gotta draw the line somewhere. There really needs to be stronger categories of hikikomori, or, better yet, a new & revitalized term to firmly encompass those who almost literally never leave the house. I mean heck, I'll be honest that I occasionally go on nightly drives with my mother where we also sometimes stop and walk around somewhere for a bit, but that's a far cry from someone like Satou who may as well be some gallivanting globe trotter by comparison.

Anyway, I don't know man. No matter what you call it, in the end, I'm just an agoraphobic shut-in who's far too autistic, inept & fearful to exist outside of this dusty little home I share with my parents. I guess I always thought hikikomori was a special term reserved for those in seclusion for 5+ year or longer, who would have a similar disposition & lack of will & courage to leave the house, as I do. Maybe that's asking too much though. If I had my way it would just descend into senseless witch hunts over who's a "true hikki" or not, the same way "true wiz" bullshit has dominated on Wizchan for so long now. You either don't regulate it at all and have "fake hikikomori" run around everywhere, or take draconian measures that even I myself wouldn't measure up to, or you take some milquetoast middle road option that has the worst aspects of both. There's just no answer to it and no matter what I'll always feel like I'm alone, out of place, disconnected & contemptuous of whatever other people say.

>>7767

>>7768

> if I'm being frank, I don't even consider Satou to be a real hikikomori. Literally in the first episode of the anime, he goes job hunting by himself in broad daylight. Even when I first watched it, I was like "WTF? I couldn't do that in a million years, perhaps not even if my life depended on it! And this bastard's supposed to be a hikikomori? Give me a fucking break!". I mean fuck, not only that, Satou doesn't even live with his parents & goes out constantly in the anime/manga, often in broad daylight all by himself, something I haven't done in 12 fucking years for crying out loud. Satou is a socially awkward NEET at best and certainly not a hikikomori as far as I'm concerned.

Welcome To The NHK is about Satou recovering from being a hikikomori after 4 years of isolation not how he became one although that would be a more interesting story also the original book was written by a hikikomori the book is basically the authors story and Satou is himself and while i do agree with most of what you said you should realize that every case of hikikomori is different not all fall under the stereotype of pissing in bottles never leaving their rooms having trash everywhere and parents leaving food outside the door in-fact i argue based on my research those kind of hikikomori are extremely rare even in Japan. The truth is most hikikomori still go outside they are just isolated socially and spend nearly everyday at home in their rooms and do not go to work or school hikikomori is different from agoraphobia hikikomori can still go outside here is a quote from a article i found (Quote) Kimura says he never considered himself to be a hikikomori because he would regularly go outside to walk his dog. The popular image of a recluse is of someone who never leaves their room but, in reality, only a small percentage fit that description.

“Hikikomori are able to visit places where they feel secure,” says Ikegami, who himself had a period of social withdrawal in his younger days.

“They don’t work or do anything, so they think people are going to criticize them and dismiss them as worthless. They think the people around them will start lecturing them, so they avoid places where people might be,” he says.

“They can go to libraries or convenience stores or train stations — places where they don’t know anyone or where no one is likely to start talking to them,” he says. “Some people might even feel they can go to a convenience store if the clerk is foreign, not Japanese.” (Unquote)

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2019/06/01/lifestyle/prison-inside-japans-hikikomori-lack-relationships-not-physical-spaces/#.XT4vHehKjIU

>Even the Japanese government's definition of hikikomori is becoming a complete farce, now including people who still wander around or go to convenience stores every night to be hikikomori, while then excluding those with severe mental health issues, but whom are actual hikikomori. I'm not trying to be some puritanical asshole, but, christ, you gotta draw the line somewhere.

The actual 6 months duration in the definition doesn't mean staying inside for 6 months and never leaving at all it actually means you must be going through a period of isolation for 6 months in order to be diagnosed as hikikomori in japan also back on the topic of Welcome To The NHK Satou lived by himself in a apartment that was just one room but he still depended on his parents and it is true that most hikikomori have no IRL social connections besides their parents but i have talked to a few Japanese hikikomori online in Japanese chat rooms before some although not common are not completely housebound and every few months or once or twice a year would get together with some old friends and as far as mental illness goes they are only excluding people with schizophrenia as far as i know.

https://hapila.jp/cause-social-withdrawal

>>7769

>recovering from being a hikikomori after 4 years of isolation not how he became one although that would be a more interesting story

Hmm, fair enough. I mean, Satou still went to that nearby park at night pretty often (which is where Misaki first noticed him from her window) and perhaps even ventured to other places as well for all we know, beyond for simply what he needed to survive. Either way, it's really neither here nor there since we never see, or read, any of this, so it's pretty much irrelevant. I also agree with you that it would have made for a far more interesting story, showing Satou as what he's actually supposed to be (a hikikomori), instead of him resembling it in name only 95% of the time. As far as I know however, the author never really considered himself to be much of a hikikomori, so it's no surprise that Satou isn't much of one either.

If it were up to me, I'd of had NHK be about Satou 10 years after living with his parents, having never had the opportunity to live on his own, nor wish to live on his own, as he does in the manga/anime. He has no friends and never will, almost never leaves the house (except if it's with his one of his parents), and would spend almost every day lost in escapism & contemplation about the state of his life & how he got there to begin with. Most of the show would be made up of flashbacks to a decade prior, or whatever other fragmented memories Satou can still recall that make up the blur of his current heavy isolation, along with brief excursions into the outside world with his parents that would be built up to over a few episodes/chapters. The show/manga would be bleak & mostly resemble a cautionary tale as Satou heads into a drearily, uncertain future of further isolation. Simultaneously wondering, fearing & hoping, as to when it will all end. It also wouldn't show any of the stereotypes associated with hikikomori, or shut-ins in general. Satou wouldn't be a complete slob (opposite to the way he is even in the anime) &, rather, would actually be somewhat fastidious, at least to the level of any other average joe. He wouldn't piss in bottles or never leave his room. He'd wander or shuffle around the house at times, perhaps even getting into casual conversations with his parents, reflecting a post-acceptance stage in his relationship to them, where they've now embraced the fact that this is just the way he is. The entire story would largely be about Satou's constant struggle with himself, as he tries his best to cope with his isolated existence, often falling into fantasy & daydreams to escape from it all. Misaki, if there was to be one, would simply be that. A daydream and an obvious figment of Satou's fevered imagination, born wholly from his unbearable loneliness & terrible longing for companionship. The moral & crux of the story ultimately showing that some things just don't get better & life doesn't owe you your happy, or even bittersweet, ending. It's tragic & it's unfair, but, whether society wants to admit to it or not, it happens. It happens all the god damned time. It happens in a big way to my version of Satou and the best he can do is to simply endure and try not to be too much of a burden to those around him, despite how appallingly miserable reality is for him and so many others on this planet.

As an aside, even the manga hints at Misaki not being real at one point and that everything that happened was all in Satou's head. Sadly that turns out not to be the case, but man, let me tell you, that would've been such an awesome/poignant/relatable twist to everything.

Anyway, just as Satou was a reflection of Takimoto in his story, so too would he be a reflection of myself in mine. And frankly, I'd consider mine to be far closer to what Satou ought to have been. I'd also like to reiterate that there was an actual hikikomori in Takimoto's NHK, but it wasn't Satou. It was Megumi's brother, Yuuichi (which I accidentally said Hitomi instead of Megumi the first time, so sorry for that). Granted, Yuuichi is made to be a bit of an unhealthy caricature of a hikikomori, checking the boxes on all the toxic cliches (like him pissing in bottles being implied & Megumi having to leave food for him), but if they just got rid of that shit and had Yuuichi still walk around the house and pick up after himself, but never leave it, he'd be the perfect image of a hikikomori, at least to me.

>>7770

(cont…)

>The truth is most hikikomori still go outside they are just isolated socially and spend nearly everyday at home in their rooms and do not go to work or school hikikomori is different from agoraphobia hikikomori can still go outside

>hikikomori can still go outside

Well, I guess that's the real problem, isn't it? What do you call yourself if you're both socially & physically isolated? I suppose, in a sense, that's why I find calling myself a hikikomori so problematic, since the term hikikomori itself is so broad & watered down that it essentially is synonymous with socially awkward NEETs. What would be a term that'd fit someone like me or other "hardcore recluses"? An agoraphobic hermit? An uber shut-in? An autistic ascetic? Any would be better than hikikomori it seems, since hikikomori includes those who may be socially isolated, but are not physically isolated, alienating more "hardcore types" like me, since people who fit the former category of being solely socially isolated far outweigh the latter of those that suffer both.

>the definition doesn't mean staying inside for 6 months and never leaving at all

Well it should and, up till now actually, I was under the impression that it did. Like I said in my last post, there needs to be stronger categories of hikikomori, or even a new word entirely, to describe those who are both physically & socially isolated to either a moderate or extreme degree. Granted, even I, as I said previously, still go outside with my mother from time to time late at night, but it's certainly not something I take lightly, or could do by myself. Perhaps going out less than 15 times in 6 months would put you in the moderate category, and not going out from your house at all would put you in the extreme category. I'd also want the term, on some level, to divorce itself from the crap about never leaving one's room, and instead just be about never leaving one's house, since, as even you yourself pointed out, shit like pissing in bottles or parents having to leave food at the door is the kind of stuff that encompasses ridiculously tiny outliers, if that, and are all basically just toxic cliches about severe shut-ins, and therefore shouldn't be part of any mainline definition.

>and every few months or once or twice a year would get together with some old friends

So these people aren't even socially isolated and yet they're still somehow hikikomori? Right then. Well if people like that are hikikomori than I guess I may as well be a paraplegic, even though I have full use of my body. Past a certain point, what do these words even mean or stand for anymore? I know I'm probably coming off as judgemental & exclusionary, but really I'm just sad. Sad at myself for caring about this kind of crap and sad at the fact that recluses like me are so few and far between, despite how dubiously elitist that sounds.

>>7775

>Well it depends on the situation of the individual for example if someone is unable to leave the house because they are stuck in a wheelchair or have a broken leg they are not hikikomori

Agreed. Another example would be how there are plenty of agoraphobics who still have friends, or a significant other. They might be more physically isolated than than a hikikomori, but, at the same time, they're not socially isolated or withdrawn at all, which itself completely excludes them from being hikikomori.

>if you're at home due to various personal and social issues in your life depending on your parents staying in your room and avoiding people on purpose then there is a chance that that could be a case of hikikomori syndrome

This is exactly what would describe a hikikomori I think, so long as the isolation was greater than 6 months and they weren't going to school or work, or, in my elitist opinion I suppose, really anywhere else. No friends and no social relationships beyond immediate family (parents, siblings, etc.), would also be part of my own "elitist" classification of whether they were hikikomori or not. If that makes me an unreasonable asshole then so be it, I don't care.

>media only show the more extreme cases usually the most common type of hikikomori are not the stereotype.

Well that doesn't really change what I said. Like I pointed out, common NEET style hikikomori like Satou who are simply socially withdrawn far outweigh agoraphobic style hikikomori like me who are also extremely socially withdrawn, in addition to being extremely physically withdrawn. I'll grant that the latter still meet the official definition of hikikomori, but, personally speaking, I just see them as socially awkward NEETs with hikikomori tendencies. In that sense, I honestly don't care what the official definition is. At the same time, am I some tyrant that wants to force my own snobbish definition on everyone else? Absolutely not, but that still won't stop me from scoffing at how broad & watered down the mainstream classifications of hikikomori are.

>Japan hikikomori itself is not technically a mental health disorder it is seen as a social condition

I suppose in Japan that sorta makes sense, given how repressive & work-centric they are. In that sense, one could become hikikomori simply to escape from the unrelenting pressure of having to succeed for the sake of others, or of finding themselves being worked death in a place they hate. Being socially withdrawn, however, would imply suffering from mental health related problems or impairments like anxiety, depression, or autism, so it seems silly to exclude them and is part of why the official definition is, in some ways at least, flawed. As far as I'm concerned, being a hikikomori is often a symptom of something else and not a cause in & of itself. It's like looking at spontaneous bruises appearing on some dude's arm and thinking that it's just happening by itself, even though, in reality, it's because the guy actually has scurvy and the bruises are simply a symptom of the real disease. One could also say that society itself is a disease and hikikomori are the symptom, encompassing those who refuse to adjust to how profoundly sick it is, making hikikomori more sane than anything. Either way, it feels weirdly rigid to detach mental illness from being a hikikomori.

>hikikomori and they treat it like it is a mental health disorder

So then they do in reality, just not on paper? Well whatever. I guess that's out of touch bureaucracy for you.

>Why though?

Because, to me anyways, it's like associating all schizophrenics with raving homicidal maniacs. It's an empty, harmful & stupid cliche that creates an unnecessary stigma and is something that shouldn't be part of what people think of in regards to hikikomori, or hermits in general.

>then the word would have a completely different meaning because in English it means to pull inward to be confined to a single space

How's that exactly? I mean, if that's the case, then I guess Satou stylized hikikomori aren't hikikomori and neither would most anyone else be, since staying in one's room literally 24/7 is essentially next to impossible unless you've got a fucking bathroom in there, or you live in an apartment and just get your groceries sent to you, but even that's not the same thing and, by the very literal definition of the word, still not be seen as hikikomori, since you're still not in your bedroom. What's more, in keeping with my previous comparison, saying being confined to one's room is the only way to be truly hikikomori, is like saying one must be a homicidal lunatic to truly be a schizophrenic. It's absolutely absurd & unrealistic, which is why I hate how associated it is with hikikomori.

>>7776

(cont…)

>i argue that if you are walking around your house and willingly having social interactions with people and hanging out with your family and being outside your room you're not hikikomori

Well you're free to think that if you want, but if we're really going to operate off of the hardline definition of hikikomori, then, again, I guess 99.9% of those who call themselves hikikomori aren't actually hikikomori, unless they're Japanese and never leave their rooms. See how insane that is? Never leaving one's room is the epitome of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy and is a tumor on what hikikomori as a condition/word is actually supposed to represent. Maybe for that reason, more than any other, is why hikikomori is such a fundamentally flawed phrase since, again, it's like if the word schizophrenic literally translated to "unhinged, homicidal maniac".

>actually the government of Japan does not consider people who stay home but still go outside for work/school hobbies/interest and have a social life or are withdrawn as a result of a current condition such as schizophrenia or a physical illness, or those who stay at home but still do household chores / childcare with "what they usually do when they are at home" and those who work from home but still go to their job sometimes to be hikikomori.

I don't do any of those things and, even going back 12 years ago, outside of school and one job that lasted two weeks, I've never done those things. I do however walk around my parent's house and get into conversations with my mother from time to time. How does doing that not make me a hikikomori, outside of the obvious "Hah! You left your room and spoke with someone! You're in no position to judge anyone!" nonsense?

>This means that they spend pretty much almost all their time at home visiting old friends every few months or once or twice a year

To be clear (and like this guy >>7773 already chided me for), I don't have an issue with the fact that they leave their house every few months or once or twice a year (hell, I do the same thing, for christ sakes), it's the "old friends" part that makes me question their hikikomori status. Hikikomori don't have friends and, if they do, regardless of how rare it is they meet with them, then they aren't socially withdrawn, since they still have friends. Being amiable with one's parents isn't exactly the same thing, since in most cases it's impossible to avoid interacting with them and being on good terms with them can only help your survival as a hikikomori, but that doesn't necessarily mean your friends with them or are not still lonely from the lack of them. I mean me & my parents get along well, but that doesn't make them a clear substitute for friends, which I'm too afraid & incapable of actually having. Not by a long shot.

And I'm sure my statement of "hikikomori can't have friends", will be taken as another example of my autistic snobbishness since the criterion defining hikikomori doesn't say anything about not having any friends at all, just about persistently avoiding social situations. Again, all I can say is, whatever. There's a lot I don't agree with when it comes to the mainstream criterion of being a hikikomori, so this is just another example of that.

>>7777

(cont…)

>going to a grocery store or convenience store late at night and then back home is not exactly on the same level as a normalfag who goes outside everyday

And I don't disagree with you. However, I just see them as still being a lot less physically isolated than some other hikikomori, like myself. Also, I am not, and I repeat, AM NOT trying to shit on other hikikomori here, or that my definition of hikikomori is the only correct one. To be frank, I honestly don't even know what I'm trying to say anymore, assuming I even knew to begin with. I guess I just feel alone & alienated and have always had some misgivings about the definition of hikikomori and, as a result, it's spun out into all this autistic rambling. At this point, I guess I just want someone to get what it is I'm saying, in regards to selfishly wanting more people to match up to my own skewed version of hikidom so I can feel less alone, even if they disagree with me and think I'm wrong.

>Dr. Alan Teohas stated that most hikikomori go outside 12 to 13 times a month for only 3 hours at a time.

That much, huh? Again, I suppose I have to remind myself that a lot of people don't have willing parents to provide for them, so needing to go out on occasion to acquire food/water is pretty much a necessity. Walking around just for kicks though, the way Satou would go to that park every now & again, or perhaps even in day time? That I just can't understand, nor could I do by myself even if I wanted to.

An agroamori (a combination of agoraphobia & hikikomori), maybe that's what best describes who I am. The physical isolation & fear of the outside in agoraphobia, combined with the social isolation & fear of other people in hikikomori.

Anyway, I said to myself I wouldn't dig myself into a deeper hole here, but I guess I just did. I'm sure I'll regret posting this, since I'm just going to get called stupid, or that I'm a clueless asshole, or both, but that's the way it goes with me, it seems.

>>7783

>This doesn't exclude everyone that has a psychological problem, so it's not too specific. I guess it's a fine definition. Specific enough to be useful, but not too specific for its own good, to the point that it only applies to one or two people.

The main cause of hikikomori is usually extreme social pressure and stress and being unable to maintain a public face while out in public in Japanese society honne (本音) and tatemae (建前) which in Japanese society are your inside face and outside mask most people when talking about the subject of hikikomori ignore this part of the topic and the mental health side of it as many hikikomori also have mental health problems that contribute to the isolation in the original definition created by Tamaki Saito he is mostly only excluding people with schizophrenia and basically what he means is that if you are in a state of isolation because another psychological problem put you there and that is the cause and there are no social factors involved then its not hikikomori also in his book he says he chose 6 months instead of 3 months because many people go on 3 month short vacations to take a break or some time off and then they go right back to work or school so he doesn't really consider 3 months to be long enough for a state of withdrawal.

>>7637

Call it retarded, but it's my take:

They look for attention or "titles" to put under their name as if being themselves is not enough.

They feel like misery is great, because they have never experienced it in their lifes, or they simply downplay others' problems to the point where they are in the same level as someone that hasn't left their house in years.

Scum of the earth, in my opinion. If you call yourself X, I immidiately go into "This fucker is lying for pity/attention" mode. It's a world of self-importance and since many can't do anything note worthy with their lives they simple resort to self-titleing themselves even if that means pretendending or adopting mannerism which can lead to problems in their normal, non-important lives.

That is not to say hikkis or neets or any other loser with defining characteristics are important, but what is important is the communities they create for people like themselves to connect with each other - from IRC to forums - they have a community. A community which is aimed at themselves and is considered by the outside view as something "niche" or "dark and depressing" and that's also a reason as to why normal people, with average lives tend to fake it to try to fit in. Because somehow in their head they get a feeling of superiority, as if they just joined a secret club with unknown knowledge, and usually brag about it to their friends or online groups in discord or reddit without fully understanding why communities like those exist in the first place

I don't feel like this is ever going to end, as people get more and more interested in "niche" things such as anime or the "urr am depress :(" actitude they'll be more and more people that dig deeper into these topics eventually leading to things such as imageboards.

This whole "self-title" thing is not uncommon outside of these groups, people do it with everything. From mental illnesses to political groups. Everything is a title to these people and nothing more than that.

On a side note, I haven't been visiting 8ch that much. I heard it got taken down and this is the replacement. Does anybody know if boards like /suicide/ are still a thing? I can't seem to find it.