/christianity/ -Jesus spoke aramaic, therefore Peter was pope

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File: 5635d0d8f55551e⋯.jpg (102.86 KB,1200x963,400:321,augustine.jpg)

Jesus spoke aramaic, therefore Peter was pope 02/03/20 (Mon) 22:59:20 2294b6 No.12712

I've encountered this argument before. Let's set the record straight.

A Roman Catholic might argue that the church was founded on Peter, not Christ or the confession of Christ, because Jesus says "upon this rock I will build my church". If we speculate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, it would have been akin to "You are rock. Upon this rock I will build my church", because the words would have been identical. The argument says that this is tantamount to, "upon you I will build my church".

This is a bad argument because the holy scriptures are what were inspired, written in Greek. Speculation about what Jesus might have said in Aramaic is conjecture.

The person making this argument has to:

>establish with certainty that Jesus's conversational language with Peter was Aramaic

>account for the differences in terms when written in Greek

>Prove the doctrine from the Greek anyway, independent of the Aramaic argument.

If the doctrine of Jesus building His church upon Peter is Biblical, it would be present in the koine greek. That is a matter of reasoned debate, but this talk about aramaic is not.

____________________________

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02/04/20 (Tue) 02:40:42 4feb7a No.12717

>Jesus then plays on Simon's nickname, Peter, which would be roughly the English "Rocky": Peter is rocky, and on this rock Jesus will build his church (16:18). Scholars have debated precisely what Jesus means by rock. Protestants, following Augustine and Luther, have sometimes contended that the rock in this passage is only Jesus himself (references in Cullmann 1953:162 n. 13). But by Jesus' day the Greek terms petros (Peter) and petra (rock) were interchangeable, and the original Aramaic form of Peter's nickname that Jesus probably used (k h phas) means simply "rock" (Cullmann 1953:18-19; Ladd 1974b:110; Carson 1984:368; France 1985:254; Blomberg 1992:252).

The IVP New Testament Commentary Series (academic protestant source)

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02/04/20 (Tue) 03:54:02 97ff24 No.12724

The Greek is good enough. I know that Protestants like to throw around the "Petros means pebble, not rock" meme, but that is so easily explained by the masculine vs. feminine grammar. It simply does not make sense for Jesus to change Simon's name to Peter and announce that He was going to build His church on a rock in the same breath unless He was making a pun. Any other interpretation requires that Jesus was either directly insulting Peter or making a non sequitur.

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02/04/20 (Tue) 04:03:30 368b00 No.12726

>>12712

>This is a bad argument because the holy scriptures are what were inspired, written in Greek.

This, although I doubt a Roman Catholic would understand why that would merit a rejection of their argument. If they accepted Sola Scriptura, they wouldn't be Roman Catholic.

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02/05/20 (Wed) 23:01:42 6d741c No.12783

>Ioanes 1:42

ἤγαγεν αὐτὸν πρὸς τὸν Ἰησοῦν. ἐμβλέψας αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν Σὺ εἶ Σίμων ὁ υἱὸς Ἰωάνου, σὺ κληθήσῃ Κηφᾶς ὃ ἑρμηνεύεται Πέτρος

He led him unto Iesou. Having beheld him Iesou said: Thou art Simon the son of Ioanes, thou shalt be called Kephas: which is interpreted, Rock.

Case in point, the Syriac translations found it appropriate to render Peter as Kefa and both are taken to mean "rock".

http://dukhrana.com/pes---ta/analyze_verse.php?verse=Matthew+16:18&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25&source=

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=pe/tros

http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=kyp+N&cits=all

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02/06/20 (Thu) 00:47:45 04eecc No.12787

File: b4231fc49063d1b⋯.png (52.64 KB,828x307,828:307,john.png)

File: 84c56f5edb7aaca⋯.jpg (301.79 KB,1010x1330,101:133,Christiconlife.jpg)

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>>12724

Too the bad the Fathers (Cyprian is something Roman Catholics point to, but he teaches that the Bishopric is founded on Peter) all take the opinion that the Rock is Peter's confession.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeVFmnZS1CQ

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02/06/20 (Thu) 04:16:27 4feb7a No.12793

>>12787

The Church fathers have a gradient of interpretations some say peter, some say the bishopric and others every true believer. They're not mutually exclusive but Peter being the rock is the most strictest interpretation.

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02/06/20 (Thu) 04:29:13 ffaafc No.12794

>>12787

>mental gymnastics

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02/06/20 (Thu) 11:36:59 baf777 No.12801

File: 57ee16917481ad1⋯.jpg (78.48 KB,728x960,91:120,gethsemane.jpg)

>>12712

The rock verse is not the make or break one, the following verses are more important.

I will give you the the keys - only the highest clergy authority had the keys to the temple.

Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven… - also something only the clerical authority could do.

Hence to any hebrew hearing those words it would be clear that Jesus is giving authority to Peter.

>>12726

Sola scriptura is a manmade tradition whose fruits is thousands of christian sects and counting. All it takes is someone thinking they know better, and humans are specially tuned to do that due to our fallen prideful nature.

Jesus mandated a hierarchy as everything in existence functions through hierarchy, He made creation like this. That s.s. tradition is a rebellion against God's will and its fruits show it.

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05/01/20 (Fri) 17:55:55 a1d690 No.12897

>>12712

>holy scriptures are what were inspired, written in Greek

The holy scriptures were written in Hebrew (OT) and Aramaic (NT).

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05/04/20 (Mon) 06:25:41 13b795 No.12898

the word petros is the masculine form of the word petra (rock)

it would not be appropiate for Jesus to give St. Peter a feminine name, so in that sentence he says it clearly: you are the rock and upon this rock I will build my church.

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05/21/20 (Thu) 04:49:10 69edf4 No.12904

>>12724

Jesus is the head of all churches. Peter was a bishop of a church with Jesus above him. See it as Jesus is the big rock, Peter(and any other bishop/pastor) is the smaller rock.

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