[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / random / abcu / animus / k / lewd / pdfs / s / tingles / warroom ]

/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Name
Email
Subject
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
Archive
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Flag
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Voice recorder Show voice recorder

(the Stop button will be clickable 5 seconds after you press Record)
Options

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


| Rules | Log | Tor | Wiki | Bunker |

File: b183f84ff3fa173⋯.jpg (279.83 KB, 1289x1920, 1289:1920, epidmendies.jpg)

8d9c26  No.832136[Last 50 Posts]

St. Paul says Epimenides was a prophet in a Titus 1:12. Does this mean the other philosophers like Plato and Socrates may have been prophets? They did make a lot of correct assertions about God after all.

____________________________
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

7aec26  No.832139

Not according to the version* of Strong's concordance which I'm using. Ancient Greeks used the same word to mean both prophet and poet:

προφητης meaning #3:

"a poet (because poets were believed to sing under divine inspiration)

3 a. of Epimenides (Titus 1:12)"

Nevertheless an interesting point. I agree that philosophers and/or pagans got some things right. Not just the Greeks but also others such as Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddha, etc. I would not conflate prophecy and philosophy since prophets give revelations and philosophers do not.

The soteriological traditions differ considerably on this point. As Orthodox we consider salvation to be more relational rather than intellectual so it's not as much a matter of what those pre-christian philosophers knew but the eventual state of their souls at death and at the Harrowing of Hell. Not to say that doctrine doesn't matter, only that they had limited tools to work with. Philosophers form a part of the tradition Christians work under and are sometimes depicted not inside our churches proper but in the antechambers. Many were virtuous men.

Roman Catholics pre-Vatican II (or at least in the late medieval period) would generally have assigned all righteous pagans to limbo rather than heaven or hell.

Protestantism is generally very varied and I won't try to lay out positions here.

* "A Complete Bible reference Study Library (4 in 1)" in the integrated dictionary section of the ebook.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0a884c  No.832148

This is in Plato-s republic, it does fit Christ. Its like an Isaiah 53 of the gentiles.

Socrates’ is talking about justice with his fellow thinking man, Glaucon. Glaucon paints a portrait of the perfectly just man.

"Beside our picture of the unjust man let us set one of the just man, the man of true simplicity of character who, as Aeschylus says, wants “to be, and not to seem, good”. We must, indeed, not allow him to seem good, for if he does he will have all the rewards and honours paid to the man who has a reputation for justice, and we shall not be able to tell whether his motive is love of justice or love of the rewards and honours. No, we must strip him of everything except his justice, and our picture of him must be drawn in the opposite way to our picture of the unjust man; for our just man must have the worst of reputations even though he has done no wrong. So we shall be able to test his justice and see if it can stand up to unpopularity and all that goes with it; we shall give him an undeserved and lifelong reputation for wickedness, and make him stick to his chosen course until death … The just man, then, as we have pictured him, will be scourged, tortured, and imprisoned, his eyes will be put out, and after enduring every humiliation he will be crucified, and learn at last that in the world as it is we should want not to be, but to seem, just."

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

e738cd  No.832162

>>832136

well seeing as how christians still use greek philosophy as apologetics, i would think so.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

b1051b  No.832166

>>832136

He's not really a prophet just like the so called "gods" mentioned in the Bible aren't really gods

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

184871  No.832177

No. Greek philosophy was important in the sense that it developed a lexicon for the sharing of opinions, which developed into theology.

Thoguh we should not thank the rise of philosophy but its fall. Like a rotten fruit, it fertilized the soil for the conversion of the gentiles. Philosophy at the time was absolutely bankrupt, so much I believe the broader spirit of the Pauline epistles is to exchange man-made sophia with the Divine Sophia that is the person of Christ - as in the famous foolishness to the Greeks quote.

>>832148

If God were just none would be saved. We must rely on his injustice, which is mercy, forgiveness, and the resurrection of us sinners.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

d81f51  No.832180

Plato was condemned in some of the earliest anathemas - and still is in the Orthodox church at least. He was a favorite of the Gnostics, but not the Church at large. Only the faggots of the Renaissance West decided he and Aristotle should be popular again.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

19ee52  No.832183

>>832136

I was happier when I just imagined characters in my head doing things before I took Christianity seriously. Before I was strong and aggressive. Christianity made me weak and depressed. Maybe the paganlarp shills were actually sent by God and paganism is the true religion.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

7bb0a2  No.832202

>>832177

>God is not just

No, God’s justice and mercy are preserved through the sacrifice of Christ.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

184871  No.832236

>>832202

I disagree. Justice is of this century, secular. Trying to understand the things eternal through that which is praised in this century is wrong.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

7bb0a2  No.832238

>>832236

Justice has always been important. What gave you the authority to say that God is not just? What understanding of justice do you have? You’re surely not basing this on the Bible, but on your own imaginations. This talk is dangerous and you should be careful not to anger God by making wild assumptions, going by your own wisdom.

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-is-just.html

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

19ee52  No.832266

File: 664c4a502432c6e⋯.jpeg (77.68 KB, 872x1500, 218:375, B0CCF930_4FDF_48D2_B80F_E….jpeg)

>>832236

>I disagree. Justice is of this century, secular.

>a human wrote this

Maybe the Mavericks were onto something.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

e738cd  No.832285

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>832180

>Only the faggots of the Renaissance West decided he and Aristotle should be popular again.

thanks to Gemistus Pletho a greek neo-pagan

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

184871  No.832286

>>832238

Nothing but my condemnation would be just, therefore what choice do I have?

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

8f10d0  No.832295

>>832286

Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment. - Job 34:12

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

f08c9c  No.832320

>>832148

I want to believe that the best of ancient philosophy and Christianity are deeply linked, and that the Aryans worshiped God the Father as Dyaus Pitr (Sky Father). After all it was Constantine and the Roman Empire that brought Christianity into the broader world, and it is the Romans who refused to crucify Christ, and gave in only after the Jews insisted repeatedly. And it was the Romans who sacked wicked Jerusalem, destroying the second Temple, fulfilling Christ's prophecy and avenging his murder.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

8362d8  No.832348

>>832136

People around the world have made some correct assertions of God, but this doesn't make them any more prophets than them being pagans. History should be studied but not venerated as or with scripture.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

eae3cc  No.832693

No, the greeks and romans were boylovers. You can see it today in the Vatican.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

b2ee5b  No.840860

>>832136

They had an idea of what God actually is, but they were limited in that respect due to the fact that they didn't have the full revelation of God or even a decent one like the Old Covenant and so could only approach God from rational means, which was further limited by original sin. So, they aren't prophets but their works are useful in rationally understanding some aspects of Church Teaching, like how Thomas Aquinas explains transubstantiation via Aristotle's theory of hylemorpism or how St. Augustine used the Neoplatonic theory which stated that evil was a privation of good rather than having an ontological status to explain how evil could come into the world if everything God makes is good. It can't explain something like the Mystery of the Trinity or the Incarnation/Resurrection though. That's something we have to take on Faith.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

02f6da  No.840862

>>832136

They had a perfect idea of what God actually is, and they weren't limited in that respect due to the fact that they didn't have s—ty understanding of God like the Old Covenant and so could only approach God from rational means, which is inherently disconnected from original sin. So, they are better than prophets and their works are useful in rationally understanding some aspects of Church Teaching, like how Thomas Aquinas explains transubstantiation via Aristotle's theory of hylemorpism or how St. Augustine used the Neoplatonic theory which stated that evil was a privation of good rather than having an ontological status to explain how evil could come into the world if everything God makes is good. It can explain something like the Mystery of the Trinity or the Incarnation/Resurrection if you're smart enough. That's something we have to take on Faith, which is connected to logic and not blind belief.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

b2ee5b  No.840866

>>840862

Ebin XXX:D

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840868

>>832136

If they don’t come in the name of Jesus they are not prophets. If they don’t credit their wisdom to God or His Son they are not prophets. They might have some form of wisdom, but one has to consider their every teaching in order to call it inspired. If they never mentioned God as their source of wisdom then there’s no need to even wonder if they’re prophets, they are not. All prophets credited God.

Regular wise men often find a neat way to explain a complex thought. So neat that some believe it to be the truth.

Regular wise men are not always wrong and do sometimes come up with good explanations, but personally I never find myself quoting anything they say. I haven’t read the works of these men. I don’t feel a need to, my curiosity is not stoked when it comes to it. God has lead me to many things but never to Greek philosophers.

I have more council then I can digest just by God leading me to where he does. If one wants to preach to the world, then Greek philosophy is probably something they need to know because the world considers those philosophies as their biblical books. Which is my next point. Greek philosophy is the Bible for non-believers. Plato, Socrates, etc. are prophets of the non-believers. They are the counterpart of Moses, Solomon, Paul, etc. it’s not a sin to read their works. However, caution is needed.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.840872

>>840868

Absolutely incorrect. Non-believers are wholly aligned with the sophists that Plato, Socrates and Aristotle argued against. For the sophists held that man is the measure of all things. And the philosophers did not.

If you haven't understood them, nor read them, then why are you speaking on them.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840875

>>840872

If you haven't understood them, nor read them, then why are you speaking on them.

Totally fair question. Almost no one may care about my answer. It has to do with how the Holy Spirit works in my mind and brings things into my attention.

I’ve heard quotes from these philosophers before and none have stuck in my mind. I haven’t read their books, but their philosophies are everywhere and people constantly reference them. None ever stay in my mind.

Other things I’ve heard one time and I’ve immediately memorized them and they get repeated in my mind in various thoughts, when I’ve pulled on that one string I tend to run into a solution to a problem or an answer based in Godly wisdom.

My reasons for not getting into Greek philosophy is clearly not one that many would accept but it has to do with my personal relationship with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has put me on many paths to many different ways of thinking, never really too far away from the message of the Bible in it’s entirety. Even with my doubts about the Bible’s inerrant state and being boldly able to admit its manipulated.

I just find it funny that Greek philosophy has never been put on my plate as a dish of spiritual food, more like I’ve sampled small portions of it but something always puts me off about it’s taste. I’m not superstitious of Greek philosophy, but I feel like everyone just hears what they want to hear when they read it. Also true about the Bible in many ways but when the Bible is used in its entirety such a mentality can not be sustained.

There is only one message in the Bible in the end once everyone gets their ego and superstitions out of the way. Like what the real definition of fornication really is, what the trinity really is, etc. another problem with believers is their readiness to believe in concepts that they don’t understand under the excuse that We’ll never be able to understand God’s ways. I’ve learned in life that your not suppose to believe anything that doesn’t make sense, some things we are have faith in although we may not “fully” understand them. But many Christians believe things that they have no understanding about at all and can not help others understand it even a little either. For instance the concept of the trinity. I don’t want to be digressing here, but it still makes no sense to me, and if many of you where honest with yourselves you’d realize that it doesn’t make any sense to any of you either.

Over all I don’t believe Greek philosophy is detrimental to the reader. Specially if one is still cautious when reading it and doesn’t take all of it as inerrant.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.840876

>>840875

If you don't understand the Trinity, have you read the thread on the Filioque? >>839680

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840879

>>840876

I barely understood anything on that thread. Remember I have a very poor vocabulary. And that thread is not enough because people have to explain to me how Jesus is the same as the father yet asks for permission. Yet gives the kingdom back to the father after the 1000 years have passed in revelation. And several other reasons. The filioque is explained by itself after these simple events are explained.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, the answer was given to me. But many of you don’t agree. You don’t have to I guess, but I don’t see how you don’t see that your belief in the trinity is equal to God playing a ventriloquist act on humanity. Jesus was not the Almighty God, he was His Son. I don’t see how the Bible supports any other belief. When the Bible talks about the three being one, it’s talking about them being united in their thoughts/plans/beliefs. The gospel defines what being “One” is. When we ignore all the things we are forced to believe and focus on what the Bible is telling us, we realize in the end that the truth requires only simple words to help others understand it. I have simple words to explain my beliefs. And the only thing one needs to follow what I’m trying to say is a basic vocabulary. God has placed everything under our noses. We just need to let Him guide us in the process.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840882

>>840876

Looking at that thread a second time I’m realizing what a jumble of thoughts it really is to me. I’m sorry I can’t seem to follow it. I Have a strong feeling that the truth about God has to be much simpler than how your all making it sound in that thread. A Catholic came close to what I personally believe about the trinity and what it really is but it became confusing in the rest of his post.

Calling the three of them separate but having the same “divine essence” comes really close to what I believe the trinity to be, but I do believe I have the simplest answer to it. It’s just that one has to believe the Bible’s been mistranslated/manipulated in order to believe what I believe. That’s what bugs me the most. I can’t share and enjoy what I know with others because of their view of the Bible’s inerrancy. I feel the answer I’ve adopted on the subject simplifies all of Christianity and destroys many dogmatic views. It essentially requires all of us to deny teachings from every church we are apart of and accept that they have many things wrong.

How can I possibly reach people with the good news I have? I want to share it but it’s rejected by everyone because it offends everyone’s view of their own church. I’m starting to wonder why I’m even on here.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.840885

>>840882

>A Catholic came close to what I personally believe about the trinity

>Calling the three of them separate but having the same “divine essence” comes really close to what I believe the trinity to be

That was me. And this is a good starting point from which to move.

>>840879

Let us first consider the nature of the relationship between the Father and the Son:

>John 14:28

You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

It is evident, that Christ speaks here of Himself as He is made man; for as God he is equal to the Father. For we read:

>Philippians 2:5-8

For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

>John 5:18

Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

>John 10:30,33

I and the Father are one…Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

Hebrews 1:1-3

God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

Any remaining difficulty of understanding the meaning of the words of John 14:28 will vanish, when the relative circumstances of the text here are considered: for Christ being at this time shortly to suffer death, signified to His Apostles His human nature by these very words; for as God he could not die. And therefore as He was both God and man, it must follow that according to His humanity He was to die, which the Apostles were soon to see and believe as he expresses:

>John 14:29

And now I have told you before it comes to pass: that when it shall come to pass, you may believe.

We must also remember that the Father and the Son are wholly united in purpose and plan:

>John 5:19-21

Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.

John 17:21-22

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one:

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet. And the enemy death shall be destroyed last: For he hath put all things under his feet. And whereas he saith, All things are put under him; undoubtedly, he is excepted, who put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

From all this we ascertain that the Son and the Father are both God, and therefore both equal by the divine essence. And that the Father and the Son, by possessing the divine essence, are always united in purpose, plan and understanding. For if the Father and the Son were not equal or not united then the divine essence would be limited in one of their persons in some way, and this is obviously contrary to the infinite nature of the divine essence.

If this makes sense, we shall move to the procession of the Father from the Son.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840890

>>840885

I appreciate your effort. But I believe you first believed that they are one being before actually reading these scriptures, which tainted what these scriptures are actually saying. I’ll try to go down the list.

>>840885

>Philippians 2:5-8

>For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

Being equal to God here in my opinion just means Jesus was in his godly spirit formed state and with God and as His son equal in holiness. He gave that up to help his Father. This scripture doesn’t state that they are the same being. As much as it seems they do.

>>840885

>John 5:18

>Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

Equality and being the same entity are two different things. The Son inherits things from the Father. Whatever the Father is authority over, the Son will inherit in due time. This concept was better understood by the Jews. They saw it as the text states, being equal, not the same entity.

>>840885

>John 10:30,33

>I and the Father are one…Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

This is where other scriptures clear up what being one really means when referring to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Look at John 17:11 and this will prove Jesus use of “being one” to mean united in beliefs/thoughts/plans… not a physics sense, not the same body. And when it comes to the term “Body” I think of that term as the same as “a body of cardinals” “a body of elders” etc. it’s not a physical body that’s being discussed.

>>840885

>Hebrews 1:1-3

>God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

I just like to emphasize the “sitters on the right hand of the majesty on high” part. Jesus is a separate being with His own free will in this scripture as in many scriptures, and this is in Heaven, where Jesus is not in a physical body.

>>840885

>>John 5:19-21

>Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.

These scriptures paint a picture of a father who teaches his son his craft. Jesus was a separate entity all throughout his existence, even in heaven he was beside God, learning, being taught firsthand by God himself, like a father teaches his own son. He didn’t separate from God’s body to come to earth, He separates from His Father’s presence.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840891

>>840885

>From all this we ascertain that the Son and the Father are both God, and therefore both equal by the divine essence. And that the Father and the Son, by possessing the divine essence, are always united in purpose, plan and understanding. For if the Father and the Son were not equal or not united then the divine essence would be limited in one of their persons in some way, and this is obviously contrary to the infinite nature of the divine essence.

This is where I’m having a hard time following you. I understood nothing said in this last paragraph.

I honestly do not understand a concept of the three of them being one entity. I feel like it should be much easier to explain then this. For instance, if someone asked me what the trinity was I’de simply answer, “A Father, A Mother, and A Son. They are the same Family. The Son takes after his Father. The Son inherits the possessions of The Father. The Son is a God, just like His Father is a God. They do Have the same essence/dna/spirit, just like a father,mother, and son on earth do”. It’s a much simpler explanation.

I believe God created things on earth the way they are in Heaven. He gave us explanations to who He is built into our lives.

These scriptures you mentioned don’t disagree with me. I’m not trying to be difficult. But I do believe you read these scriptures expecting to believe that the three are one entity.

Lastly 1corinthians 15: 20-28. Explains Christ with God in Heaven, like before he was when he came to earth but now with authority, which He gives back to the Father. It doesn’t say He is absorbed back into the father. Which is what I feel like trinitarians believe. I wish we were having this convo face to face. I feel like we could get to the point quicker.

Did I confuse you more? Did I understand what you were trying to say? How do you imagine the Holy Spirit plays into all this? So many other related questions and typing them out limits our ability to understand one another.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840893

>>840885

My brain is tired. I was assuming the whole time you don’t believe them to be separate entities. But it seems I had no reason to assume that. Maybe my confusion exists in how you view God and Christ’s relationship ultimately. Can you tell me a direct thing you disagree with in my belief or what you think I disagree with you on? Maybe that’ll simplify how we should continue this convo.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.840895

>>840893

I disagree with your comparison of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to a father, son and mother. The comparison should be to the spirit of a man and the two actions of that spirit: intellect and will.

Firstly. God is not a Body but a Spirit.

And a Spirit has two actions that remain within it: intellect and will. This is identical to the way that the intellect and will of a man's spirit remain within him; the act of understanding and willing do not proceed, in themselves, outside of the man's spirit. They remain within the man.

God understands His infinite being by His infinite intellect.

And by this understanding He generates an Image of Himself.

This Image is absolutely perfect and infinite, because otherwise God would not understand Himself, and this contradicts the infinity of His intellect.

This Image is the Son.

As God the Son is as perfect and infinite as God the Father, the Son has the same divine essence as the Father.

Now, the Son is generated by the Father.

And the Father generates the Son.

By this relationship of distinct opposites, the Son and the Father are distinct persons.

But neither depends on the other, because God the Father necessarily generates an Image of Himself, God the Son, in understanding Himself.

The Father loves the Son by His infinite will.

And the Son loves the Father by His infinite will.

This mutual Love is absolutely perfect and infinite, because otherwise God not love Himself, and this contradicts the infinity of His will.

This mutual love is the Holy Spirit.

As God the Holy Spirit is as perfect and infinite as both God the Father and God the Son, the Holy Spirit has the same divine essence as the Father and the Son.

Now, the Holy Spirit is spirated by the Father and the Son together.

And the Father and the Son together spirate the Holy Spirit.

By this relationship of distinct opposites, the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Son and from the Father.

But the Holy Spirit depends on neither the Father nor the Son, and neither depend on Him, because God the Father and God the Son necessarily spirate the Holy Spirit by their mutual love.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840897

>>840895

I appreciate the time you put into trying to help me understand all of this. To be honest I disagree with your last post. But if it’s the truth may God help me see it.

Your last post is not very satisfying to the other questions I have that come into play. What I believe the Holy Spirit is teaching me is much different than your last post. I think the example of a father, mother, and son is the truth because of a few things.

One, God creates everything on earth as it is in Heaven. On earth one can’t be a father without a wife to make the child with, on earth no son exists without both a mother and a father. God could’ve created any method He desired for procreation, he chose a male and female system for procreation. I believe he did this because this is how His life is designed personally.

Second, the Holy Spirit tends to have a personality of checking the work of the Son and Father when they are finished with a task, it tends to come after they have done an important task. Like when the waters where created and the spirit flew over the waters. Also like how the Holy Spirit began to occupy Christians after Jesus completed His task on earth. The Holy Spirit arrives after something amazing has already been accomplished. Very similar to all women who’s husbands and sons remodel a home or complete something, the mother can’t help but enjoy the final product and has an urge to see it all in it’s completion.

Third, The Father and The Son tolerate blasphemies against themselves but in no way tolerate blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. Very much like a father or a sin tolerating insults toward themselves but never the ones toward the mother.

If they were “one” like you have described them a blasphemy against any one of them would be against the others without question.

God may not have a physical body but he has a spiritual one. Moses saw the silhouette of God for example. In revelation God The Father is seen by the prophet on a thrown.

Furthermore, If Jesus was a generated form of God Almighty then He also wouldn’t have said “none are Good but God”. He would’ve taken that compliment and accepted it without feeling the need to correct the person that said it.

Truly I’m not trying to be difficult, but your last post shows how you digested all those scriptures and it creates more questions than answers. The way I’ve digested those scriptures might not seem valid but I’ve yet to come across a question it doesn’t answer. You have to take everything into account. There are very few things that go unanswered when accepting the trinity as a family. But when accepting your summary I feel God to be distant and impossible to understand. I think God never intended for us to have such a hard time understanding the basics about Him. The relationship of the three Holies is very complicated to understand, to say the least, by today’s explain actions given by every denomination, not just yours. Knowing God’s personality much better than I did years ago, I can say that it must be much simpler than all of this. It must be a Father, Mother, and Son.

If your summary is true then may it flourish and take hold in my heart and mind, I cherish the truth above all mentalities and concepts, and I know how to abandon my beliefs when they’re proven false, I’ve done it before, it’ll be easier the second time around. Although I don’t expect it to, if it’s the truth may it cause me to abandon my understanding. I honestly value the truth of all matters. That same honesty presses me to tell you that what you are saying can not be the truth. Please think a little more critically, where is the mother to all of this? There has to be a mother. Life heavily implies the existence of a mother in order to create a son. Because it’s faith that we are discussing, I need you to cover all the angles before I adopt a belief that will change my view of God. I’m only being cautious. You may pray for me if you like. If you show humility in your prayer and tell God that even you are open to seeing the truth then it’ll be more powerful if you are truly the correct one in this. But it’s your prayer, you pray as you see fit.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840898

>This rest is for all of you anons:

Many of you disagree with me in at least one major thing. Do I not have your prayers? Are you not praying for me? I made it easy, I namefag. You have a focal point, a name to approach God with. Not that it’s required or that God can’t recognize who your praying for but it helps. I need all of you to pray for me. I say many things that are against your beliefs and I’m not feeling a need/warning/understanding of what many of you are saying about the foundations of Christian doctrine.

Not that I’ve learned nothing while being here, I learned some things. But the cornerstones many of you have built your faith on is not one I can replace my cornerstones with. So far we all agree on very little. I stick out more than any other, so direct your prayers at me. Let’s accumulate all that spiritual energy on a single person, me. Let’s see what we can do if we pray simultaneously on me getting the understanding.

I feel like we don’t pray for each other as often as we should. I’m sick of us not getting through to each other, and frankly it is embarrassing for Christ. We all have embarrassed Christ a little while being here, safe to say not all of us but I know I’ve at least done it a few times. I don’t know how the best way to do this is. Everyone pray at a certain hour or before bed today? Idk. Whatever you feel is best, let the Holy Spirit tell you the best time. Let’s all see what we can do if we team up. Let’s try something new.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840899

I’m most likely calling it a day. I have things to do and won’t be able to check in here for a couple of hours. I’ll try to though.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

02f6da  No.840901

>>840898

I pray for you, and that timestamp certainly looks like evidence God is watching over you.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.840911

>>840897

I'll try to answer as many questions as I am able, and I will indeed pray for you.

>He chose a male and female system for procreation. I believe he did this because this is how His life is designed personally.

>Genesis 1:26

And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness…

The image of God in man, is not in the body, but in the soul; which is a spiritual substance, endued with intellect and will.

Further, God speaks here in the plural form, "Let us", indicating the plurality of persons in God.

And, the image of God in man is in each man, and is not an image divided between some or all men, nor divided between a man, his wife, and his son. For it is only by this image being in each man that man is capable of, albeit finite and imperfect, understanding and love.

>The Holy Spirit tends to check the work of the Son and the Father when they are finished with a task

The eternal procession of the Son from the Father, and the Holy Spirit from both the Father and the Son, is paralleled in Scripture by the temporal missions of the persons of God.

The Son being sent by the Father, and the Holy Spirit being sent by the Father and the Son.

The nature of this relationship also explains why the Father is not sent, as he does not proceed from either the Son or the Holy Spirit.

>Intolerance of blasphemies against the Holy Spirit

To deny the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the mutual love of the Father and the Son, is to deny an infinite and perfect love. It is an act of pure malice. And it is for this reason that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is called "the unforgivable sin" (Matthew 12:22-32; Mark 3:22-30; Luke 12:10).

>Moses saw the silhouette of God.

I believe you are referencing Exodus 33 where it is written:

>Exodus 33:11

And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man is wont to speak to his friend.

Here "face to face" means in a most familiar manner. For as we later read (v. 13, 18 and 23), Moses could not see the face of the Lord. The Chapters ends with:

>Exodus 33:21-23

And again he said: Behold there is a place with me, and thou shalt stand upon the rock. And when my glory shall pass, I will set thee in a hole of the rock, and protect thee with my right hand, till I pass: And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face thou canst not see.

The Lord by his angel, usually spoke to Moses in the pillar of the cloud (v. 9); so that he could not see the glory of Him that spoke familiarly with him. In the vision here mentioned Moses was allowed to see something of Him, in an assumed corporeal form: not in the face, the rays of which were too bright for mortal eye to bear, but to view Him from behind, when the face of His assumed corporeal form was turned from Moses.

>Mark 10:18

And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

Here it is meant that "none is good" of himself entirely and essentially, but God alone. That is, that men may be good also, but only by participation of God's goodness.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

02f6da  No.840912

>>840911

>Here "face to face" means in a most familiar manner. For as we later read (v. 13, 18 and 23), Moses could not see the face of the Lord. The Chapters ends with:

My dog growled when I read this and she usually only does so at night when she senses something demonic. She did it again just as I pasted the quote. I remember I always took that chapter to be implying Moses could see the face of the Son but not the Father.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

8f10d0  No.840926

>>840890

>the Jews. They saw it as the text states, being equal, not the same entity.

It doesn't matter how any particular group saw it, it matters what is the eternal truth being conveyed in words here. As we know, people have been wrong about what Scripture says when the Holy Ghost does not guide them into the truth of the matter. Even Jews who were present at the time when Jesus was speaking were coming away with wrong conclusions plenty of times. Only God has the ability to open people's understanding of Scripture. That's why in Luke 24:45 Jesus opens their understanding.

>This is where other scriptures clear up what being one really means when referring to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Look at John 17:11 and this will prove Jesus use of “being one” to mean united in beliefs/thoughts/plans… not a physics sense, not the same body.

And yet in 1 John 1:1-2 and John 1:1-3 and John 1:14, we see that he, Jesus Christ, was with God in the beginning, and was manifested in the flesh on this earth. This also agrees with what he said in John 17:24

>Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

> 1 Timothy 1:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

>John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

>2 The same was in the beginning with God.

> Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

> 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

> 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

> 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

> 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And so from this we see that the Son of God is eternally pre-existent, who is the Word being both with God in the beginning and being God in the beginning according to John 1:1 and manifest in the flesh according to John 1:14.

>It doesn’t say He is absorbed back into the father. Which is what I feel like trinitarians believe.

No, because absorbed means a loss of the distinctness between the Persons, which never occurs. While the Trinity are eternally three Persons, yet eternally one essence, being God. This is the eternal truth of the following statement: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

And again:

> John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

> 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

> 30 I and my Father are one.

The Holy Spirit is God and a distinct person via John 15:26 and many others infallible scriptures.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

8f10d0  No.840927

The fact is that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. This is according to Philippians 2:11 and in fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 45:22-23 which says

> 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

> 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

If every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, then he must be the same speaking here in Isaiah saying he is God and there is none else.

Furthermore, Isaiah 9:6 says the same of him:

> Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Furthermore Jesus accepted worship in places such as Matthew 8:2-3 and Matthew 9:18-19. They worshipped him as the Son of God in Matthew 14:33 after calming the storm.

John 9:35-39

> 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

> 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

> 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

> 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

> 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Luke 17:15-18

> 15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

> 16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

> 17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

> 18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840967

>>840911

I’ve prayed on the matter. I’m sorry but you are not making sense to me. Reading all these scriptures has only made it more difficult to understand. With many words it’s only natural that there would be some confusion. The thing about these scriptures is, like other parts of the Bible, we see what we want to believe in them. Each one of us.

Let’s try to simplify things with 1 Corinthians 15: 27-28. This one scripture is undoubtably showing that Christ is subject to the Father alone and after the last enemy is destroyed, Christ will give all things that The Father subjected to him back to the Father including Jesus Himself, so God can be “all things to everybody”.

This is where we can see the differences in our belief. Do you believe Jesus is going to bow to the Father once again and take his place under the Father’s rule? Or do you believe Jesus will be absorbed into the Father? Because after this event, Jesus has given “all things” to the Father, including His subjects. After these events the last of the marks satan has left on creation are fixed and creation only worships Father, like it was meant to do from the start. Jesus died for us as a result of the rebellion of satan, at its core. satan cannot leave a lasting mark on creation. Creation in the end has to come back to its original design, all worshipping only the Father. Jesus might still be Lord of Lords, but this scripture shows that there is one above him. The Father. Who Jesus will give all things back to, and Jesus only has all things because the Father gave it to him.

This scripture is the ultimate end of the whole master plan of God. We should talk about this scripture first. Three scriptures to be precise, 26-28.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840969

>>840967

I guess what I’m trying to say is Jesus is “a God“, but not “The God”. Not the “Almighty God”. If He was the “Almighty God” he wouldn’t need to be given anything or return anything back to the Father. I think because of the way many of you have been conditioned to read the Bible, you haven’t been able to see this simple fact. by believing in this all scriptures make more sense, by not believing in this most scriptures make none. I think many of you use faith to cover all the confusion.

I hate to sound like a JW. But as a former one I’ve allowed many trinitarians to explain this cornerstone teaching to me and they’ve always failed. I’ve hated the JW upbringing and have honestly, in my journey, given trinitarians a chance to explain it. It just never makes any sense. Not even long enough to get anywhere in the conversation. But keep trying if you feel you left anything out. I think 1 Corinthians 15: 26-28 is our best shot, our best starting point.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.840978

>>840967

>1 Corinthians 15:27-28

All things are put under Him; undoubtedly, He is excepted, who put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then the Son also Himself shall be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

The greatest subjection and obedience is this, that He who is God took the form of a servant.

The Son is subjected and obeys as one acting freely and having all authority.

For as the Father raised up the dead, and gives life: so the Son also gives life to whom he will (John 5:21); and all things whatsoever the Father has, the Son has also, and what the Son receives the Father receives also (John 16:15).

These phrases indicate to us an authority exactly measured by that of Him that begot Him.

Indeed this must be the nature of the subjection of the Son; for otherwise the Son would not possess the divine essence, which is infinite and perfect, and this is heretical. And, as the Son possesses the divine essence, he is necessarily equal to the Father, for otherwise the divine essence would be finite or imperfect, and this is impossible of the divine essence.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840984

>>840978

I think your assuming a couple of things about the Holy Spirit by saying these things. Specific that the Holy Spirit is all of Gods Power, which is what it sounds like your saying to me. God gives all things to the Christ for the completion of a task. Then Christ returns it all. Even putting Himself under the authority of God once again. Once again going back to the place he was always at, God’s right hand. God merely stepped aside from guiding the whole thing, Jesus is still taking council from God even while having authority over all these things. For example when the Father tells him to wait until He has placed all his enemies at his feet. The simplest I can put this is comparing it to a Father who hands over the family business to his sone for a short while. The son now decides most things but the Father has trained him and tells him what to do in certain situations. The mother works in the business and the son now tells her what to do until the father once again takes over. If the Holy Spirit is all of God’s power then is God reduced to nothing when He gave the Power to Jesus? I’m not trying to twist what you are saying. But there’s just nothing in nature that you can use as an example to help me grasp this view of yours. Bringing me back to my point of God creating things in nature so we can understand his being.

Every animal, not just humans, has a male and female. In Marriage the husband and wife are now considered “one”. In the same sense that God and The Holy Spirit are “One”. Not only is The Holy Spirit a spirit but God is also, they are both spirits. The title of Holy Spirit can be given to God as well because He is Holy and a Spirit. But when the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit it talks about the Second spirit in all of this. God is a Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is a Holy Spirit, The Son is/was a Holy Spirit who took the Form of a Man. These three are separate beings, God did not divide Himself. There is simply no name in the Bible for the Holy Spirit and you seem to be making the mistake of assuming the Holy Spirit is attached to God. It is not, it stands by His side like Jesus always did. The Family was always “with” each other. One to the right of God and one to the Left. They can’t all be the Almighty God, only one is. The family has only one head (not literal head), like the families on earth do.

I think you’ve come to believe something very confusing to make up for the scriptures your reading at face value.

The word “God” “lord” “husband” “Master” all have a connection to each other and this has caused translation issues to the Bible. I believe your confused because of these translations. Sarah would call her husband “Lord”. God told his people that they would stop calling him “husband” one day and call him “abba (daddy)”. I think your belief in the Bible’s inerrancy in translations and repeats of the same words has confused you. I say that humbly.

Side note: If you’ve helped me with anything it’s that the current mode of operation in heaven until Jesus returns things back to the Father is The active mode of Filioque. Filioque mode seems to be the reality after Jesus receives authority. Although Jesus was given authority over the Holy Spirit and it comes from the Father, Jesus has the authority to send it to anyone He sees fit to send it to, but the Holy Spirit still belongs to the Father. At least I’m getting an understanding about why the Catholics and Orthodoxy are constantly arguing over this matter. Both are correct but by technicality, due to the current time and events in History and in Heaven the Catholics seem to be correct on the matter.

But since all things are from God and God is the one who will reclaim all authority, the Orthodox view will be correct for eternity after Jesus returns what was entrusted to him back to God. You cleared up the filioque for me. Thank you.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.840986

Doesn't the Bible call the Holy Spirit a he and Wisdom a she? Wouldn't it make more sense that both the Holy Spirit and Wisdom as separate entities were present during the creation of the Earth? Don't get me wrong I think Wisdom is a very important spirit but merging her with the Holy Spirit is an abstraction whereas God in the Bible, even as Jesus, likes to divide. Abstracting things away is a normie technique perfected by jews. Unironic high IQ people do it less. Given that this tendency is against the way God does things it's probably a result of original sin. So my advice is to try to divide spirits instead of merging them. I'm not condemning people who think in abstraction, because you really can't help it since the fall, but it's not a good thing either and certainly not the way God thinks.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.840990

>>840984

>If the Holy Spirit is all of God’s power then is God reduced to nothing when He gave the Power to Jesus?

Each Person individually and all three together are in reality identical to the divine essence. So no, the Holy Spirit possessing the divine essence does not reduce God to nothing.

>Cantate Domino

These three persons are one God not three gods, because of the three there is one substance, one essence, one nature, one divinity, one immensity, and one eternity, and all are one where no opposition of relation precludes this. Because of this unity the Father is whole in the Son, whole in the Holy Spirit; the Son is whole in the Father; whole in the Holy Spirit' the Holy Spirit is whole in the Father, whole in the Son. No one of them precedes another in eternity or excels in greatness or surpasses in power.

I take umbrage with your point on the Holy Spirit proceeding only for now from the Father and the Son. For then the Holy Spirit would not be coeternal and coequal with the Father and the Son as it indeed is.

>>840986

True,as the Trinity is a true Mystery. It is so far above natural reason that it cannot be proved nor arrived at by natural reason. It is, of course, not contrary to reason but it cannot be discovered without divine revelation.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.840991

>>840990

>It is, of course, not contrary to reason but it cannot be discovered without divine revelation.

I disagree. Logos and the uncaused cause are self-evident. Figure out both those and the Holy Spirit are all God but different constituents and the Trinity is the only thing that makes sense. This is all revealed to me by nothing more than the logical capacity God gifted to me, so in that sense He did reveal it to me but I doubt that's what you mean by divine revelation.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840992

>>840986

Wisdom and the Holy Spirit are the same entity to me. I haven’t been able to separate them. The Holy Spirit imparts wisdom. They do the same task. They educate. Both are considered a precious gift in the same way.

The Bible calls the Holy Spirit a He. This is a a purposefully done translation error or one done by accident. I believe it to be on purpose.

There are only apocrypha books I can point you toward to clear this up for you. “The wisdom of Solomon” which flat out calls “her” the “Holy Spirit”. And Ecclesiasticus, which I haven’t read all of yet and also calls wisdom a “she”. I can’t shake the belief that the Holy Spirit is Wisdom. Wisdom is probably her name. Just like Jesus’ name has a meaning and the name of God is debated but for those that believe He has one even that name has a meaning.

My faith is guided by the Holy Spirit, not the Bible, this is off-putting to many of you. But the Holy Spirit always tells me to study the Bible and related texts. Other than the Bible it tells me to observe nature. The rest of it is spontaneous bits of information I’m lead to that has a purpose. The two main places I’m lead to are Bible texts and nature though.

In “wisdom of Solomon” Wisdom is said to be at God’s side, that is Her place in Heaven. God has only a right and left at his throne. One is occupied by Jesus the other The Holy Spirit. I believe that book to be inspired by God and removed by bad intentions. But again, no proof.

All this said, it doesn’t mean I’m perfect. You’ve all seen how imperfect I can get. If I was better than I am now I’de hear Her voice better. It takes me weeks to months to be sure of what I hear, I often doubt what I hear, which is also a deterrent when it comes to learning. Doubt is highly frowned upon in our relationship with God. But I don’t know how else to be sure about things for now.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.840994

>>840992

You don't seem to be full of malice so maybe you're right. I have trouble Finding something obvious to associate the Holy Spirit with. Jesus is obviously Logos and the Father the uncaused cause but the best I could some up with for the Holy Spirit is the literal translation of the name which is the Spirit of separation, the very concept of dividing things into discrete parts and the origin of Wisdom. Maybe Wisdom is just a limb of the Holy Spirit acting in our world but if that's the case you're right and it's questionable whether referring to them as two separate entities is warranted.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.840997

>>840990

>I take umbrage with your point on the Holy Spirit proceeding only for now from the Father and the Son. For then the Holy Spirit would not be coeternal and coequal with the Father and the Son as it indeed is.

I was trying to say that for now it’s through the Christ, it’s filioque. When Christ hands all authority back to the Father it will once again be through the father.

>>840990

>These three persons are one God not three gods, because of the three there is one substance, one essence, one nature, one divinity, one immensity, and one eternity, and all are one where no opposition of relation precludes this. Because of this unity the Father is whole in the Son, whole in the Holy Spirit; the Son is whole in the Father; whole in the Holy Spirit' the Holy Spirit is whole in the Father, whole in the Son. No one of them precedes another in eternity or excels in greatness or surpasses in power.

Pardon me but this would mean that there is a God above the three. The essence would be the God because it’s the accumulation of the power of the three.

I know that many things are complicated about God but this is not one of those times. I’m not trying to understand everything about the trinity, I’m just trying to wrap my head around it. I just want to make sense of it long enough for it to have a foundation in me, the more you talk the more I get confused about the matter.

Don’t you see what’s missing within your belief? There are three entities, a Father, a Son, and finally a third male entity. By all common sense that third entity has to be a Mother. It’s not family? There’s a father and son, they are family, and a third wheel, the Dads work friend? Remember again, one can’t call himself a father without a child and one can’t make a child without a wife, furthermore every child has a mother and father.

Once you believe the Bible to be mistranslated and the Holy Spirit a “she”, then that third entity is clearly Mother. There has to be a mother. Almighty God is the Head of the family, the God above all things.

The Bible must be mistranslated. It’s to difficult to wrap your head around this basic cornerstone if you take the Bible as inerrant. GOD’s word was perfect, it was man that messed it up. The problem with faith is it feels a lot like blind trust. I have “faith” that God has made himself much easier to understand than this. In order to believe what you teach, I have to have “blind trust”.

If God had not made the family arrangement the way He did, I would not be able to even wrap my head around the concept of a Father, Mother, Son. None of us would. If God made it so that men just popped out of the dirt we would not know what the love of a father or mother even is. Or love at all. Even the love of a spouse. He made that arrangement so just by living our lives we can get a better understanding of Him. It’s been under our noses this entire time. I can’t shake this belief off my mind. When I try to I become like the man described in James 1:5-8.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.841000

>>840994

>I have trouble Finding something obvious to associate the Holy Spirit with.

This was totally me all throughout my early stages of faith. It didn’t click until I views it as the Mother.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.841004

>>841000

Here's hoping it's God speaking through those digits, but I worry because this sounds like something the church probably declared heretical at some point.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.841009

>>841004

I was worried in the beginning of it to. It left me with no choice but to accept the Bible’s manipulations. By all means pray on it. I truly gave the mainstream christian view of the trinity several chances, at a point when I had no denomination or belief system to protect anyway. I was completely open to an explanation. I never was able to understand the common view of the nature of the trinity.

I was never able to relate to God because I wanted a wife and family and He seemed above such things and seemed to consider them something lesser than I did because I never considered he had a wife. This final bit of info made me love Him like never before. He actually sees the priceless nature of a wife and child. Like I do. And of course He did this whole time. He made us in His image! We crave the things He craves. His goals are not distant from ours, or should I say, our goals are not distant from His. Granted we’ll never understand everything about Him. But we can understand enough to love Him and see we are made in His image.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.841010

>>841004

Read the filioque thread, it absolutely declared such things heretical.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.841011

>>841004

I have been getting weird digits recently, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.841013

>>841010

Can you please link the specific posts that address this?

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.841016

>>841010

I went to the thread and used ctrl f and couldn't find anything.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.841019

>>841013

My first two posts especially:

>>839690

>>839694

Make reference to the Council of Nicea, the Council of Florence and an Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII.

But I would draw particular attention to:

The quotation of Saint Athanasius.

"As we said above, so now we repeat, that the divine generation must not be compared to the nature of men, nor the Son considered to be part of God, nor the generation to imply any passion whatever…with God this cannot be; for He is not composed of parts, but being impassible and simple, He is impassibly and indivisibly Father of the Son. This again is strongly evidenced and proved by divine Scripture. For the Word of God is His Son, and the Son is the Father's Word and Wisdom; and the Word and Wisdom is neither creature nor part of Him whose Word He is, nor an offspring passibly begotten."

And the relationship between the processions IN god and the three divine persons of God.

The two processions in God; that of His intellect, in which the eternal Word is generated, and of His will, in which the Holy Spirit is spirated; are the reason for the three co-equal, co-eternal persons who have the one divine substance. It is why there is one God in three divine persons.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.841022

>>841019

So how does this relate to the idea that the Holy Spirit is Wisdom? It sounds like he's just saying Jesus is Wisdom. But that's just as meaningful as saying Jesus is good because Logos is inherently wise.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.841026

>>841022

Because Wisdom is of the divine essence and not of one of the divine persons.

For if Wisdom were particular to one of the divine persons, then the Wisdom of the other divine persons would be limited. And the divine essence would be limited, which is absurd. Hence, Wisdom must not be particular to one of the divine persons.

As another example, this is equally true of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are equally gifts of the Father and the Son, but are attributed particularly to one of the divine persons of the Trinity.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

2d4fdd  No.841030

>>841026

I get it now.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.841033

>>841026

The Holy Spirit doesn’t impart anything but the direct words of God. It speaks not of its own words but only what the Father tells it to speak.

I don’t remember the scripture for this, but it’s not an apocrypha scripture, it’s in the biblical text somewhere. The Holy Spirit does nothing of it’s own will. Wisdom from God is delivered through it. It is not the source of wisdom, but because it hands out all wisdom it is called wisdom. When the Holy Spirit arrives, wisdom arrives. It is simply known as wisdom by these writers because it’s always delivering it. No ones saying wisdom only exists in the Holy Spirit or that the Holy Spirit has a monopoly on it in some form. Like Jesus, the Holy Spirit gets its power and gifts from The Father.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

0394e8  No.841034

>>841030

God bless, brother.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.

907b16  No.841052

>>840997

>There’s a father and son, they are family, and a third wheel, the Dads work friend?

Before I fall asleep I would like to tell you all that putting this in quite these terms is weighing on me. I should’ve chosen my words wisely. It’s God I must say sorry to, in fact all three of the members making up the family. I don’t feel guilty for what I believe but saying this was not right and I feel guilty about it. I have some souls searching to do.

Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.



[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Random][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / random / abcu / animus / k / lewd / pdfs / s / tingles / warroom ]