No.398234 [Last50 Posts]
I am curious how other people handle a species that would be an obligate underwater civilization. Whether or not amphibious methods of respiration would be allowed.
I would always assume that technology would be almost 100% biology-based. Structures would be nearly as alive as the individuals that live in them. Vehicles, if someone could call them that, would essentially be as large organisms with copious levels of 'internal space" either bred into them or carved out of mostly hollow sections of their form. Armor and weaponry would be much below what could be made on the surface, although with an amphibious set of lungs there could be assumed settlements on coastal territories and marshlands. What the society would lack in outright technological firepower, they would make up in selectively bred (or outright modified) species of aquatic organism which would quite literally add mythological style beasts such as Kraken to their ranks. Raids upon ships would be a common sight in attempts to steal or safehold precious materials such as metals and textiles (ultimately rare objects where plants are small animals and there lies an extreme difficulty creating a forge).
I would like to assume that a solely aquatic civilization would "grow" houses in an organic, rapid-growth coral species however setting aside titanic creature bones would probably be easier to obtain. Whale bone would be a precious resource for all forms of construction and weaponcraft. I would assume that all armor would be from other living organisms as well, remains from enormous abyssal crustaceans to act as plate or some form of treatment to shark hide.
What are some creative concepts you have come up with?
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No.398240
well as everyone that played dominions knows
>they trade for copper/bronze because it doesnt rust
>fire mages that are capable of forging weapons underwater
>arms and armor are made from bones, shells (turtles make for excellent shields) corals (bonus for getting poisonus ones), perls (grown by magic) and shark skin
>rare jellyberd, aka. jellyfish on a big stick. it stings
>literally no ranged weaponry as it is really hard to shoot a bow under the sea. maybe random nets and harpoons but their range is pathetic
>huge role of mages for everything including constuction because you just simply cannot make shit without it
>all mages can control the water around the target to crush it. this works as a basic ranged attack
>lobster cavalry
>kelp forests. KELP FORESTS
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No.398254
>>398234
> I would always assume that technology would be almost 100% biology-based.
Well, our technologies are primarily based on fire which is in short supply underwater (though, not completely impossible), but this does not mean necessity of purely biological progress. Especially, if we have magic/psionic stuff.
I would go with psionic/resonance based technologies, as well as developed chemistry/microbiology.
> Armor and weaponry would be much below what could be made on the surface,
Biological stuff can be pretty high-end (spidersilk, for example), especially if underwater civilization is older - and the age difference between land-based species and underwater can easily reach Lovecraftian scale, as life developed in sea.
Current underwater civilization might not even consist out of original species, but those who developed much later (possibly servants) and possess much lower tech level that their creators (who went extinct/moved on).
> Whale bone would be a precious resource for all forms of construction
Seems inefficient, unless civilization is small or very low-tech, as whales are few and don't grow fast. I'd go with some pressed chitin/glue stuff that would serve as underwater cement (or ancient crystal/coral cities).
>>398240
>>literally no ranged weaponry as it is really hard to shoot a bow under the sea. maybe random nets and harpoons but their range is pathetic
Tamed moray eel packs, hybridized with electric eels (for shock attack) and/or puffer-fish (for poison) - essentially, guided missiles.
Alternatively, some swarms of high-speed fishies/krill that can inject poison or biological weapons (some kind of plague or parasites).
Defence is minefields made out of weaponised and perfected jellyfish (tentacles of existing lion's mane can already stretch for tens of meters).
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No.398265
>>398254
>Well, our technologies are primarily based on fire
That's just because fire is a convenient way to convert chemical potential energy into heat energy. Find a similar chemical heat source and you can translate most of what we have. The biggest physical hurdle is that water conducts heat vastly more efficiently than air convects heat, and water has a tremendously high specific heat so it's even better at cooling things. You'd need either a very hot source of heat or some magic/physics effect to alter the heat gradient between your heat source and the surrounding water.
If there's no good solution to that you could base technology more on physically building things using the power of the body. You're looking basically at stone age tech with a highly inefficient production process. Underwater civs would progress more slowly, but being underwater may plausibly be more stable since the ocean has an "averaging" effect on temperature and weather generally. Ice ages and the like may have less effect, so if you had land and sea races appear at about the same time you could justify rough parity in tech level by having the land dwellers get hit with resets often due to ice ages, meteors, solar flares, etc while the sea civ more or less has continuity since its inception. That would give them enough time for their tech level to get where fire-based industry gets in a fraction of the time.
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No.398267
Loki
A story from the anthology Scatterbrain, by Larry Niven
https://books.google.com/books?id=HYbvbbBOqWUC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=larry+niven+loki+scatterbrain&source=bl&ots=pvVLa2ctOX&sig=VXhJAXM1yzYaxp0nNLBduN0DShI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiw8oLO0rTeAhVnRN8KHfQ2C5AQ6AEwBHoECAAQAQ
You don't remove technology entirely, you force the species to become adept at remote manipulation. Kind of like not having legs, it doesn't make things impossible, just another two to twelve steps harder.
Stone would be the common working material, as anything else that does not actively grow is actively disintegrating. Houses are open air, lest you suffocate. Most cultural activity is shorebound by necessity. Land is something of a cross of the ocean and moon, in comparison to us.
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No.398273
What is there to be done anon?
Submarine warfare?
Taming the unspeakeable horrors of the depth?
Replacing catgrills with fish/octo/crab grills?
The malevolence of the sea-elves and the might of the heroic crab-dwarves...crwarves ?
Take Blobfish and Moonfish as your sages for adventuring?
Anyone remembers Blue Submarine Nr 6 ? Autistic mermaids?
Underwater-Mecha battles?
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No.398276
>>398254
mermen village made from sunk drakkars and whale skeletons sounds metal as fuck
attack animals dont really count as ranged weaponry, no matter how you look at it. and jelly mines wouldnt really work as they a)cannot be concealed b)are still easy as fuck to destroy c)can only at once cover two dimensions in a place where third dimensional warfare is the norm
combat, even if three dimensional would mainly take place on the seas bottom as its the place where all the cool things can be built/found. there isnt really much of note floating around that wouldnt end on there after a while. it also makes it easier for the dm.
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No.398285
>>398265
> If there's no good solution to that you could base technology more on physically building things using the power of the body.
Chemistry still works. Agrotech too. Kelp forests, indeed.
> if you had land and sea races appear at about the same time
Frankly, I don't really like this approach. However, if it does happen, I would guess underwater civ would try to use islands as colonies where metal and stuff will be processed by enslaved land-dwellers, or fill underwater domes with air and use aforementioned land-dwellers there.
>>398276
> mermen village made from sunk drakkars and whale skeletons sounds metal as fuck
Well, yes. But this works only for explicitly savage tribes (low-tech, small numbers). Not much of a civilization.
> attack animals dont really count as ranged weaponry, no matter how you look at it.
Why not? Is there a difference between siccing a dog, or shooting with an arrow?
>and jelly mines wouldnt really work as they
> a)cannot be concealed
[laughs in Australian]
Picrelated is irukandji. Look it up.
> b)are still easy as fuck to destroy
Well, yes. So is minefield.
> c)can only at once cover two dimensions
I'm pretty sure they cover volume.
> combat, even if three dimensional would mainly take place on the seas bottom as its the place where all the cool things can be built/found.
We ourselves have plenty of 3d combat despite being much more land-bound than underwater civ would be.
> it also makes it easier for the dm.
That it does.
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No.398287
>>398285
>Well, yes. But this works only for explicitly savage tribes (low-tech, small numbers). Not much of a civilization.
civilizations will always have small fringe communities on, well, its fringes. no reason why one of these small towns cannot become their own civilization if, for example, a meteor falls on the main city of previous civilization and they are now all on their own
>Why not? Is there a difference between siccing a dog, or shooting with an arrow?
well, obviously there is. for starters you dont need to feed arrows, or they dont posses their own mind. and you dont need a breeding program to create more arrows
>I'm pretty sure they cover volume.
well yes but no matter what you do they will form a single line. you see this can be a bit of problem when you can simply float above them. you would need billions of them to block something, and as, you know, floating, you need to envelope target whole or someone will just go above/around it, so it minimalizes its usefullnes as battlefield fortification. it must be employed as a static one around cities or it simply wont work. and as there really isnt that much shooting going on there is nothing preventing enemy soldiers from fucking with jellies except for rare mages. and no attack fish wont work because they would have been masterfully positioned or deployed from caves beyond jellyfield or they would simply get eaten by them. also they are mindless, you really cannot control them in as big capacity as you would want.
in short, l really dislike the idea. it could maybe work as a gimick for some master breeder faction though
fortresses would be blocks without windows and only a few etrances created from stone, coral, animal remnants (these being much more open) or KELP FORESTS. seriously imagine a single druid in a day knitting out a fortress out of kelp. now repeat hundred times. these dont even need to be anchored to the ground, imagine a hundred balls of impenetrable kelp slowly floating towards you while thousands of pissed off merman scream obscenities towards you from the insides
and really, the need for mages for everyday tasks still exists. fuckton of mages with spells based around mastering water, fire (for smelting) and earth(for creating caves). also kelp druids
vid unrelated
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No.398288
>>398234
>What are some creative concepts you have come up with
I've been working on something like this:
Cephalopods have evolved to human levels of intelligence, Octopodes managed to develop technology to allow them to explore the land but mountaineering is still off limits.
Octopodes are the most developed, squids are 2nd
The problem I have is I can't figure out how they got electricity underwater.
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No.399796
>>398234
>>398265
I have been pondering whether (and to what extent) underwater volcanism can substitute fire. At least, with regards to metallurgy.
Heat seems to behave differently in water, as the medium is both an excellent conductor and coolant. Manipulation of cold and hot streams may be vital to operating a submarine geothermal furnace, and while magma is hotter than even a modern blast furnace, it is bound to a certain location and the caprice of volcanism.
I don't know how metals smelted in water compare to those refined on the surface.
>I would always assume that technology would be almost 100% biology-based. Structures would be nearly as alive as the individuals that live in them.
I have always thought this idea as silly as it is universally assumed.
A loghouse or a felt yurt is/was also nearly as alive as the inhabitants, yet they don't count as "biology-based technology".
In fact, before synthetic materials and mass-produced steel, nearly everything was made from something that was alive or part of a living thing at some point.
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No.399829
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>399796
in a realistic setting. the issue would be isolating the heat while also being able to control it, so my assumption would be the aquatic race would have to build giant temples over thermal vents or use underwater caves that connect to the surface. however, how could that even be possible without any sort of basic tools to do so?
I've also considered using pressure. so my thought on the matter all the forge workings of an aquatic race would have to be done in a hadal zone or deeper.
just now though as a crazy thought. Because Titanium is a chemical process to produce, this option may be possible for them. Not to mention harvesting kelp for uranium.
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No.399843
>>398288
I'm thinking something involving domestication of electric rays/eels and/or crossbreeding them with something more docile or transportable. Maybe some sort of algae or zooplankton? You could likely handwave that away by using sea creatures with natural bioluminescence.
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No.399852
>>398254
You can get away with animal troops but late game capricorns will just mind control them and put them against you. Also Asp turtles to trample enemies.
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No.399861
>>399829
>in a realistic setting. the issue would be isolating the heat while also being able to control it, so my assumption would be the aquatic race would have to build giant temples over thermal vents or use underwater caves that connect to the surface.
You are responding to a post with an image of a diver being a meter or so from magma.
Water is neither isothermal nor static; a mass of it that absorbed enough heat turns into a vertical current, carrying the energy away with it.
Around hydrothermal vents, life can persist mere centimeters away from superheated jets, because the thermal gradient of water is very sharp from the inability of the bodies to fully mix. The temperature in these cold spots is just unpleasantly hot for most life, not boiling.
>however, how could that even be possible without any sort of basic tools to do so?
Unless you believe the Stonehenge and the pyramids were built by aliens, that is not a real question. In fact, megalithic construction is arguably even easier underwater.
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No.399862
>>399852
> late game capricorns
Are you talking about Dominions?
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No.399863
>>399796
>>399829
>>399861
>metallurgy
The hydrothermal-vent snail Chrysomallon squamiferum builds mineralized iron-sulfide into its shell and foot scales. A breeding program could turn them into living furnaces.
https://www.unbelievable-facts.com/2015/06/snail-has-a-shell-made-of-iron.html
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No.399864
>>399861
yeah just put your hand into larva underwater bro it's cool the water will take the heat, nah bro once we get that crudely made stone blocks around it it'll be totally fine bro.
>>399863
>iron sulphide as a byproduct from bacterial in it's gut.
how do you shape the brittle iron.
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No.400011
>>399864
>yeah just put your hand into larva underwater bro it's cool
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No.400021
>>399864
Its possible that you could use it in some sort of concrete like fashion? Its fantasy either way, having aqeuous chemistry is fine because a lot a lot of chemistry is aqueous anyway? Chances are using islands is better if you want them to use metalurgy in a human like fashion.
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No.400034
Why wouldn't an aquatic race use floating rigs for the purposes of smelting and smithing? Being out of water is just about necessary for both, seeing how much excess energy is lost to hit something hard enough to temper it underwater. they'd just use bones and shells to create a buoy and platform to crawl onto with some fish oil and sticks to get a furnace going. If they used a set island, it'd be targeted by land dwellers who'd eventually find it, as well as other underwater races would all be vying to control it. The other bonus is a smith could jump off it at a moments notice, and scuttle it to prevent anyone from taking the resources.
I would think smithing would be limited to things that they can't just steal from ships, seeing how difficult it is to craft, and how much easier it is to just stab holes in a ship, and plunder the contents from the bottom of the ocean. Things like arms and armor can be refitted easy enough for most sentient races, and rusting really wouldn't be a concern seeing how long the action would take underwater. alternatively if it was gonna be an issue, I'd suspect some mage created a spell that preserves metals underwater, for long term use like structures. you'll still have it overwhelmed with barnacles and whatnot without groundskeeping anyways. I honestly think using the vast and deep trenches to create compressed bones for strengthened weapons and structures is a far better idea. They could be working towards binding with skins to prevent fracturing, then lowering in very slowly into the super deep trenches that'd slowly press the bones down into super dense and thin shapes. I would think that'd be far more viable tech wise than trying to waste your time recreating land lubber's tech.
Combat shouldn't be put on the same tables as ground combat. You have to keep moving through water to be able to evade, and to be able to strike. piercing weapons are gonna be the only weapons worth wielding in combat aside from multi barbed weapons meant to hook into a fast enemy on a pass, and hold them while the next attackers can get an easy kill. helmets, chest protectors, and light armlets/bangles/gauntlets. Any excess weight is gonna slow you down, which means your hits won't be as hard, you'll be easier to flank and trap, and you don't have enough armor to properly cover your massive exposed areas that need complete freedom of movement anyways so it's best to use armors that mesh with battle tactics and deflection. Basically submarine tactics of changing your depth and movement patterns frequently to prevent getting attacked from behind, above, or below while armoring your front and acting like an arrow in the water. Combat wouldn't be a line of warriors clashing into one another, it'd be happening all over, everywhere. they'd all spread out in order to keep mobility, while some creatures would group up, to maximize their natural armors.
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No.400043
>>399843
Good idea, thanks.
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No.400143
>>399862
I think hes talking about ACKs
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No.400180
>>398240
>literally no ranged weaponry as it is really hard to shoot a bow under the sea. maybe random nets and harpoons but their range is pathetic
Until you get gunpowder then they import underwater guns which are very effective under water but useless on land because you're shootings long ass nails.
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No.400185
>>399864
>yeah just put your hand into larva underwater bro it's cool the water will take the heat, nah bro once we get that crudely made stone blocks around it it'll be totally fine bro.
Lava is dangerous the closer it is to the surface because the reaction from bubbles escaping is explosive. Not because of the heat. It will cool into obsidian if the water pressure is strong enough to prevent bubbles from escaping which guarantees any underwater civilization has ready available access to obsidian. Anything living in the very depths of the abyss will all live right next to a geothermal vent because that's the only oasis in the eternal darkness.
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No.400188
>>400180
>gunpowder
thats retarded. just make it air guns
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No.400224
>>400188
Gunpowder in a sealed casing works fine it's the physics of the projectile itself that is the problem which those aforementioned nails solve.
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No.400289
>>400021
nah we're not doing the whole it's fantasy bro shit we're finding a perfect method to do so or riot.
>iron sulphide in a part for a concrete mixture
alright so what else goes into this tabby cement?
on another note I looked up to see if Iron sulphide was acidic but seems as though it's potentially explosive and also potentially a deadly gas.
>>400185
I had thought of this awhile ago but the issue becomes "what do you make it's handle out of" and we're not going say wood.
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No.400294
>>400224
dude we had gunpowder for over half a millenium before we learned how to proper sealed ammo that works under water. air guns would be faster for water civilization to build and acquire
>>400289
>I had thought of this awhile ago but the issue becomes "what do you make it's handle out of" and we're not going say wood.
bones and coral. lots and lots of bones
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No.400296
>>400294
>coral
lol no
fish bones for bone china, mix in some Iron sulphide, use crudely chipped rock moulds and lower it into THE DEEP. congratulations I think we've just got our selves a new aquatic Macuahuitl.
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No.400567
The main difference is that "set things on fire" is not the first choice.
>>398240
>they trade for copper/bronze because it doesnt rust
It does. Not as fast, but the products are kind of toxic.
>literally no ranged weaponry as it is really hard to shoot a bow under the sea.
See divers' harpoon guns. Pneumatics, or even crossbow. But yeah, not that much.
>>400296
>Macuahuitl
It relies on a swing and got to have worse drag than most things with its cross-section, thanks to turbulence on every spiky bit.
More likely either stabbing weapons (spear or trident) or streamlined slicing with good leverage and/or counterbalance (like those fancy triton sabers from Sea of Fallen Stars).
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No.400607
>>400567
if you're looking at it from a purely underwater only setting then sure however with bone china, it's not far from being awful drag. Honestly I think they could develop a fighting style to play around it tbh
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No.400613
spears and daggers are the only really viable underwater melee weapons. handwavium some form of stretchy kelp for a speargun and boom, theres your ranged weapon. use flint or maybe obsidian if you can get that underwater. nobody in the water will be using metal armour anyway, and flint doesnt rust or degrade.
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No.400622
>>400613
>spears and daggers are the only really viable underwater melee weapons.
well and clubs too, but mainly because its easy to get them
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No.400627
I realize a javelin might be useless to throw underwater but what about a Atlatl Stick Thrower?
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No.405092
Just seen Aquaman (2018).
>>398234
I started a sea campaign. Started with humans with henna-tattoos that let them breathe underwater but will fade as it is used. Then they encounter the undersea realms with a macgaffin that could cause their race permanently to a sea elf/merfolk/etc.
Was fun but died prematurely.
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No.405843
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No.405934
>>400627
>useless to throw jav as drag on arm in water is too great.
<what about atlatl, which still uses the arm to throw?
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No.405978
How about that - jellyfish minefields? Giant jellies for obvious area denial ("Have fun maneuvering around those lion's manes, dipshits!"), tiny-ass irukandji faggots if you want your enemies to die. Attracted or summoned by magic, of course.
>>400613
So, if you can't wear armor that is too heavy, then penetration is not as important, and low kinetic power of the projectile can be augmented by poisons, which are plentiful underwater. Though the range will be still pretty short.
>>400180
>because you're shootings long ass nails
As it turns out, you don't actually need to shoot long ass nails. Newest Russian underwater assault rifles have somewhat shorter nails.
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No.406054
>>400289
>I had thought of this awhile ago but the issue becomes "what do you make it's handle out of" and we're not going say wood.
This is why Octopods do not have advanced civilization.
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No.408935
>>405934
I don't think drag on the arm would be much of an issue, even if they don't evolve aquatically dynamic arms, I would imagine they would design their clothes around it.
>>406054
well we decided that bone china could be possible.
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No.408940
>>405978
>How about that - jellyfish minefields?
scroll up, we already talked about it. it isnt really economically viable, especially in an environment with 3d combat
>>408935
>well we decided that bone china could be possible.
is it really even possible in underwater environment? doesnt it need to you know, be dry to cure or something?
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No.408951
>>408940
well for that if it doesn't. then it could be possible in a underground air pocket of some sort.
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No.409306
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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No.409378
For this civilization, what would your beast of burdens be? You could probably get away with using whales for coastal underwater, but deep would be tough cause they need air.
Any ideas?
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No.409394
>>409306
this anon brings up a wonderful point pretty much everyone has missed. in order to learn the environment, you must first understand it's masters.
imagine whips being an actual weapon of war.
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No.409399
>>409378
thinking about it, I don't think they'd rely upon that sort of method too much. they would spread the heavy cargo out into smaller quantities and then float those around with trapped air in bone china bowls and just pull it around to get to where it needs to go.
my reasoning behind this is the fact that every great beast in the sea creates large amounts of thrust behind it. so if you're dragging behind something it'd just get knocked around too much and thus damaged. however putting the cargo on the creature has the problem of slowing down the creatures ascent and decent to and from the surface, we're not talking weight here just bulk hindering water currents making the creatures perform harder then it needs to. I don't think this makes it impossible but I do think it is less then ideal as you're then going to have to load your creature with much less then it could potentially carry, the only way around this would be if you load cargo onto it on the surface and kept the creature there throughout the trip.
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No.409754
PC party in a fantasy version of a submarine. Playing it like Spelljammer underwater.
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No.409772
>>409378
>muh whales
Whale shark: 21t heavy, 12.6m/41.5ft long
Basket shark: 19t heavy, 12.3m/40ft long
Giant manta: 3t heavy, 5m/16ft long
Sunfish: 2.3t heavy, 3m/10ft long
And those are only the unusually large ones. There are plenty of fish, like the tuna, sturgeon or marlin that can grow to massive size.
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No.409819
>>409772
>a use for sunfish
could it really be?
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No.410392
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Anyone here do submarine combat?
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No.410654
>>409306
>This animal that is basically all muscle with a mouth at one end can do it, so it should be easy for a human too
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No.416654
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Waterbending under the sea is OP
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No.416683
>>416654
Is airbending in the atmosphere op?
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No.416684
>>416683
>>416654
>>409306
This.
Water is so much denser than air. Imagine underwater weather, any ambient (wind?) speed of more than a few inches for each second would make movement by anything without fins impossible without being pushed in the direction of the water.
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No.416685
>>416684
So you're saying Earthbending is OP
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No.420699
>>398234
Setting things on fire is not an option, so yes, a lot of uses for plants, coral and stone.
If you want ready examples, find Sea of Falling Stars in TSR trove.
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No.420788
>>416685
Yeah actually it is. Nobody uses it properly because nobody thinks the "bury somebody in sand"t time on the beach can be a viable lethal weapon when you can just move dirt around like it's nothing, that you can shove earth down your throat and fill your entire throat and lungs with it, you can open fissures and sink holes with the sixth sense to know when it's feasible, create blades so sharp they go through any modern protection but are so brittle they leave crippling splinters that retains the sharpness as they shred your flesh, stub people's toes every other step in total darkness cause you're a dick head. The potential of earth bending and similar powers is huge for killing people when you aren't just cutting the middle man out and simple creating poisons and toxins aligned to your element to kill everyone.
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