/sw/ - Star Wars

>>29967

I honestly started treating everything after 24ABY involving them as non canon. They were already gonna get retconned by George anyway into a whole new story where they wouldn't be forced sensitive, so the outcome of their fuckery would've been vastly different. I still greatly prefer them over anything Disney has done though.

>>29971

eat poo you doofus

>>29971

also pokemon is gay

>>29981

I'd rather keep it simple and just focus on their character design. I like the Vong with symmetrical designs, skull caps, war tattoos and consistent fully covering black armor with should spikes. However I don't like the Vongs that look like actual Hellraiser characters with mutilations, over-exposed teeth and eye sockets, or bdsm shit like wires and hooks. I love their organic tech though. I also think the war would've been better if it hadn't involved so many casualties and fallen worlds since that just cheapens the victories after ROTJ, Dark Empire and the Thrawn trilogy which feel more adventurous than edgy or depressing, which is what the Vong are storywise, edgy and depressing. Its pretty much why I hate Disney, their First Order and Snoke's "unknown regions race" followed the same path old writers did with the Vong but amplified all their negative traits by a 1000 and kept none of the positive ones all the while being completely unoriginal.

>>29957

I like them.

The Vong per se i have no qualms. The biowank? Unbearable

>crab armor that resists blasters and even lightsabers to a degree

>ships that shoot molten rocks, magma being effective against shields that deal with MT forces of turbolasers. >molten rocks being effective against barriers capable to dealing with nuke like forces.

>big brains things being more capable of computers capable of calculating hyperspace jumps

>big brain things capable of generating gravitational forces capable of fucking whole moons out of orbit

>a refugee population in a bunch of biowank ships capable of overpowering a whole galactic regime just after a trek between galaxies with nothing to feed said biowank ships besides their own shit and dead people

>biowank ships capable of launching space sand worms/mouthed penises from it and them chew durasteel like cake

>snake staffs capable of shooting goop that fucks armor capable to absorbing blaster fire and to function in toxic enviroments

And the list goes on and on…

>>30053

Chaos take me, almost forgot… they are also unaffected by the Force. A species that rely on living things to everything are cut/immune to the Force. Not even just resistant to it like Hutts/Toydarians or capable of repel it in a bubble like the ysalimiri. They simple don't register or are affect by it until the very end of their war/book series.

>>30053

I could deal with the biowank shit if their method of operation weren't so stupid. They hate the galaxy for using technology which they hate, so they rely on organics and prefer nature, and their attacks on Coruscant and other city worlds makes sense, but then they go after worlds that are completely green, devoid of tech and even downright primitive and wipe out all natural life on them, not just sentients. Like what they did to Ithor and the planets of the Yavin system. Then when defeated all they get is banishment when the fuckers deserved outright extinction for the trillions of lives they cost. They amount of destruction they caused to the SW universe almost (just almost) rivals what Disney has done to it and their entire existence felt out of place and unnecessery. Its no wonder hardly any other media reference them outside of the Star Wars: Legacy comics, which would've been far better without them and just pretending they didn't exist or rewriting them. I hated Filoni's Clone Wars immensely but the one thing I was looking forward to was seeing them retcon the Vong into actually being vulnerable to the Force and see them get defeated way earlier, thus retconing the worst saga in Star Wars. Then hopefully we would've gotten a better saga for the post 24 ABY era which would've had the Ryloth Diversity Alliance as the continued antagonists.

>>29965

nah we're not that bad about it. we civilly agree to disagree. me personally, i like the concept of the vong: an extragalactic force invading the realm we know and love. i just think they haphazardly handled it, but the biggest problem was the vong being magically immune to the force, it completely contradicts the essence of star wars.

>>30098

I wish George had sold Star Wars after he retconned the Vong's immunity… but nope.

>>29968

Agreed. The Vong are the antagonists I love to hate.

>>30197

>using the force and fear

I meant using brute force and fear

>>30054

I like the Vong on principal but all the above bio wank is annoying. Yet, the force thing doesn't bother me. They are from another galaxy why should they be bound to the force? I'm only a few books in but the Jedi already seem quite capable of sensing them by their absence. It feels like more of a quirk to me. Hopefully when they die their souls go into some horrific death simulator instead of becoming one with the force.

>>30183

Of all the things to complain about with the Vong, I don't know why people continually focus on their appearance. Their appearance makes perfect sense in context: they're an extra galactic, militaristic, race of zealot Luddites who feel that the weak should fear the strong. Taking this philosophy to its natural conclusion, we can imagine that they would naturally feel that whatever didn't kill them would make them stronger. Ritual scarification, again, makes sense in this context. As the Vong are hyper advanced, it is also reasonable to think that their practice of scarification would go well beyond the type practised by primitive tribes. In essence, everything that we see from the Vong is logically in line with their first principles. In this sense they are well conceived.

>>30197

Having the galaxy go to war over yet another rebellion or partisan break away would have been incredibly uninspired. Just because certain themes are timeless within Star Wars doesn't mean you shouldn't do more with them or seek to express them in new ways. You're also being far too kind to the Empire; George envisioned their rule as entirely exploitative. This whole "ruling through fear to engender a greater degree of peace and security" is a Machiavellian notion that never really gets fully expressed in-universe. The Empire are simply the proverbial "bad guys" in this setting and anything beyond that is what the fans have retroactively come up with (i.e. the Machiavellian perspective) to make the whole thing seem more nuanced than it was ever intended to be.

As far as the Vong go, I feel that they were great in concept but lousy in execution because the writers who dealt with them simply weren't very good at their job. Someone like Timothy Zahn could probably have worked wonders with the Vong.

>>30207

>As far as the Vong go, I feel that they were great in concept but lousy in execution

This is probably the truest thing in this thread. They were a cool concept, that never got to be used by anyone with talent. The Vong sound cool until you actually start reading the stories with them in it.

>>30183

>The Vong just up the ante and give the Empire a reason for existing outside of "lol Sheev was evil and stuff". The idea that Palpatine was using the Empire as a means to prepare the galaxy for the oncoming invasion is appealing to me and, if anything, it adds weight to the philosophical questions behind the Galactic Civil War:

Isn't that just a fan theory though and not actually confirmed by sources? Don't get me wrong, I subscribe to that fan theory as well, but I don't think it was ever actually confirmed that Palpatine was preparing for a war with the Vong. Not even Outbound Flight confirms that.

>>30210

I've never thought they sounded cool and I've never read them.

>>30214

I don't know, but it's so believable that I think my brain always just assumed it must have been canon.

>>30209

But at the same time "Life creates it, make it grow. It's Energy surround us. And bind us". One thing is them being "deaf" to the Force as they can't simply acess it due their beliefs or whatever. Another is the cosmic field created by life not affecting them at all. The Force can manipulate inanimate matter but can't affect a living being? Makes no sense

>>30214

There was an old article that confirmed it.

>>30306

Son, it's trash now. At the least go on /vg/ and show you have some degree of taste, though even /vg/ is a shit. Only good boards left are /tg/ because children can't pay attention long enough to play them, and /sw/ because we cast out assblasted immigrants like you. Now fuck off back to where you came from fake sheev.

>>30411

Reread what I wrote, you illiterate fucking mongoloid.

*Also, /vg/ is just as shit as /v/

So what exactly are the Vong, and why are they hated? Do they break established canon at all?

You know? I liked them. Could they have been done better? Sure, but they were something different to yet another Dark Jedi/Imperial Warlord.

the Yuuzhan Vong are fake news and non-canon.

first of all, their invasion negates what was accomplished in the OT. what is the point of overthrowing the Empire if you're going to be attacked by a faction much worse than them, who you're now far less prepared to fight? of course, they had no way of knowing, but the fact remains, the Yuuzhan Vong invasion means that the galaxy would've been better off under the Empire, who would've been able to fend them off effectively, especially with a Death Star or two. this makes the Rebel victory pointless at best, if not a bad outcome, and anything that undercuts the OT is not allowed in my book.

the Vong are OP. as another anon mentioned, their ability to overwhelm SW tech, combined with immunity to the Force, is unbalanced and nonsensical. there's no reason for this, except to tear apart the universe simply because you're bored and you feel like it, so you use the Vong as your crowbar. they're also too grimdark and don't fit the SW aesthetic; the Vong would fit much better in a universe like WH40K. but there's an even larger thematic clash, which is the fact that they're essentially the 'alien invasion' trope, which makes no sense in a galaxy full of different sentients. they stretched it to fit by having the Vong come from another galaxy, which was blatant shoehorning of a concept that doesn't belong in Star Wars.

this isn't to say they don't have some interesting qualities, or that they couldn't have been implemented better. but as they stand, the Vong are so fatally flawed and out of place that they should be retconned from Star Wars entirely.

tl;dr: the Yuuzhan Vong feel like the invention of a WH40K fan who hates Star Wars and decided to ruin it from within. this is not nearly as bad as political ideologues with institutional support doing the same thing, but that's the best that can be said.

>>35053

I wonder how much truth there is to the rumor that the Vong were a concept RA Salvatore was developing for one of his fantasy novels. Then, after he got the star wars gig, he slapped a new coat of paint on them for expediency's sake.

As far as NJO goes, the Vong weren't that bad. They were definitely something different from the repetitive Warlord/Dark Jedi stories we kept getting

.>>35053

>this makes the Rebel victory pointless at best, if not a bad outcome

The rebel victory wasn't pointless though. They won, reinstated the Republic and took over the galaxy from the Empire while reducing it to just 8 systems. They were the biggest kids on the block for like 25years or so.

>and anything that undercuts the OT is not allowed in my book.

Well by that logic there goes all of the post-endor EU.

>>35054

it sounds believable enough.

>>35055

>The rebel victory wasn't pointless though. They won, reinstated the Republic and took over the galaxy from the Empire while reducing it to just 8 systems. They were the biggest kids on the block for like 25years or so.

but this is a short-lived victory. with the Vong, all this gets turned upside-down after the brief respite of 25 years, with the galaxy being much worse off in the end. had the Empire won, it would almost certainly be standing 25 years later, and its large-scale militarization would be ideal for fending off catastrophe.

no matter which way you cut it, the Vong invasion means that the galaxy would be better off with an Imperial victory, and worse off with the canon Rebel victory. this goes too far in subverting the OT, and it's a pill I can't swallow.

>Well by that logic there goes all of the post-endor EU.

not necessarily. I'm fine with continuing the story after RotJ. while the Empire was decapitated at Endor, I'd expect there to be a substantial Imperial Remnant, and for conflict to continue. the Thrawn Trilogy sets up new conflicts and threads without completely undermining what went before. that's the key point – the OT doesn't have to conclude the story, but it shouldn't be totally undone and subverted.

>>35056

>I'd expect there to be a substantial Imperial Remnant, and for conflict to continue. the Thrawn Trilogy sets up new conflicts and threads without completely undermining what went before. that's the key point – the OT doesn't have to conclude the story, but it shouldn't be totally undone and subverted.

The NJO didn't subvert and undo the OT, though. That came from Del Rey trying to shoehorn yet ANOTHER galactic war into the OT timeline with "Legacy of the Force" when they should just have let the old Rebel heroes enjoy the fruits of their hard-earned peace, ride off into the sunset and bump the timeline along by a century or two. The Vong War really felt like an organic outgrowth of everything that had come before it, though, with the New Republic (which had always been a rather ramshackle affair) eventually falling apart under the strain, the Imperial Remnant carrying on the progression of their character development from perfunctory villains to sometime reluctant allies to full-fledged heroes in their own right, and Luke's New Jedi Order earning their place as the "guardians of peace and justice" in a crucible of fire and blood. Really, it's my favourite part of the EU.

>>35062

but I don't see it as an organic outgrowth. the Vong are a sledgehammer from another universe, a diablo ex machina that exists to cause chaos. as I said, they'd fit right into WH40K, the only question is which chaos god would they serve? their warlike aggression is Khorne like, the biowankery reminds me of Nurgle, and the torture/sadism is Slaaneshi. you could probably work Tzeentch in there too, but Id have to think about it. chaos undivided, maybe?

but I'm veering off-topic. I agree that Star Wars should not keep rehashing old conflicts, but go off in new directions. however, the Vong are too radical and extreme for many reasons.

>>35064

>too radical

>too extreme

What other outside-context enemy would you throw at them, then? Because historically, what the Vong did isn't at all different from what other "Umman Manda" nightmares from the Steppe inflicted on our world.

That said, Abeloth and other things hinted at something far worse than the Sith coming over the horizon. Read Supernatural Encounters for more details on that.

>>35068

I'd have to think about it tbh. but it can't be an HG Wells esque alien invasion into a galaxy already populated by aliens, and it has to fit the Star Wars style.

maybe a resurgence of the Sith starting with their holocrons. they'd abandon the Rule of Two because that line ended with Sidious/Vader, and chaos would ensue. or maybe a droid revolt led by the IG-88 program or a derivation thereof, but that's a bit of a stretch.

I was thinking that the Vong are reminiscent of the Huns. I wouldn't object to them so much if they were implemented differently, ie not OP, not immune to the Force, etc.

but make no mistake, the Yuuzhan Vong in their current form are still far better than anything Disney has done.

>>35064

This. The Vong themselves feel more like something from 40k, and while they do somewhat fit the whole "alien invaders in an alien setting", they're just a fucking sledgehammer that fucks with the universe. Sure them fucking up Coruscant was a good example of an invasion done right, but fucking up the rest of the galaxy's severely hinders and limits future story tellers and even tabletop RPGs since you can no longer go to places like Nar Shadda (a very popular planet) because the Vong nuked it, and what should've been an era of adventure and excitement for Luke and the gang was instead an era of horror and pain made only worse by the needless sacrifice of Chewbacca. Abeloth on the other hand was a way better "vong" than the Vong and came at a time where the heroes would naturally have gotten lazy and too comfortable for their own good and would help to kick them off to one last attempt at saving the world.

>>35064

Ignoring everything else you wrote and whether or not I think it's wrong or right:

>diablo

"Deus" isn't Spanish, you utter hack. If you're going to try at rhetoric, do it right.

>>35071

more accurately, it would be diabolus ex machina. however, the spanish word diablo is more familiar, and is directly descended from the latin, so I thought that would make it easier to follow. but I guess you're right, I shouldn't cut corners.

The Vong saga put too much emphasis on Jaden, Ben, etc to set up the abomination that came *after* the Vong. Chewie dying was lame, and OT heroes felt needlessly old and worn out. Abeloth and beyond was better because zI felt that with Luke adventuring, he would realize the true Sith and horrors worse than them (but again fitting the universe) required enlightened and heightened training.

Vergere was the true gem of the Vong saga for me because it raised a very important point im what makes the OT and prequel eras different and fun; in the Old Republic/Prequel era, Jedi could do ridiculous stuff but were portrayed more like space cops and mediators, etc. They also fought more traditional Sith, dark Jedi, etc. The OT and post-OT focused more on fewer Jedi but more psychedelic aspects of them; they use the Force to do some crazy shit mentally and physically, with saber skills being a bit more basic (they are pretty much all Ataru students through and through).

Vergere's character is a connection to the past that should have been with Luke instead of Jaden. They fucked up by trying to do another Chosen One bs when Luke should have been the answer. Instead not only do you sit through the flaws of the Vong arc but then you already know that another series of books is incoming with everyone being the "old busted" and the New Republic hating Jedi, etc.

Their take on what a Jedi was, Vong saga and on, is/was the issue. Not the Vong themselves aside from the Force not affecting them. Zonama Sekot is the living planet…yet the Vong are unaffected? All good points raised by anons in this thread that I agree with. But the problems circle back to the actual state of the characters going into the saga. I also agree that "outside invasions" is out of place as the Galaxy is not a galaxy proper but a massive collective of known star systems. If the aggressors were a throwback to a previous era of proto Old Republic, it would have been better. The Anatti would have been a good choice.

>>29957

The Vong have too many features that don't belong in Star Wars.

>They oppose the idea of the Universal Living Force.

>All the while opposing technology not based on life.

>Their aesthetics don't fit the genre(s) of Star Wars.

Garbage.

As a personal note, I would add that trashing Nar Shaddaa was a step too far.