No.20017 [View All]
what an absolute shithole. I just checked the frontpage of the literature section because of the clone wars news and they're now crying about fascism again and complaining that the Fel Empire is problematic.
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No.20244
>>20233
People who actually lived through communism prefer it more than those who never experienced it.
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No.20246
>>20244
>being this leftypol
Russians missed the Soviet Union, meaning they missed being a superpower. Most Russians disagreed strongly with letting the satellites go. If you look at your own poll you see this breakdown: 4 of the 9 former Soviet countries have all groups below 50%. As to why the elderly would have higher support, it's because their pensions were tied to the soviet system and they lost everything.
The question isn't 'was communism good?' It's 'was the dissolution of the soviet union good.' This has nothing to do with missing the retarded economic system everyone agreed was broken and everything to do with national pride and retirement pensions.
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No.20247
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No.20249
>>20244
>>20246
This.
Older people in the Bloc don't like the Soviet Union because they miss communism, they miss being a superpower and miss the culture they had. It wasn't until the USSR dropped communism ala China in the 1960s that their economy exploded and began to rival the US.
The most ardent anti-communists are ones who lived through it, especially people in the Soviet satellites (conditions were great in Russia, sucky everywhere else) and people who lived during the Stalin years. Ask any of them, and even if they miss the USSR, they don't miss communism.
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No.20252
>>20246
>Russians missed the Soviet Union, meaning they missed being a superpower.
It isn't only Russians in the graph, and it's purely speculative as an interpretation, especially when speaking as if this feeling is the only feeling and entirely representative the demographic as a whole.
>As to why the elderly would have higher support, it's because their pensions were tied to the soviet system and they lost everything.
As if the security of that system and the USSR had nothing to do with each other. No, it's entirely coincidental that their pensions were destroyed when capitalism was introduced. Not only that, but a good part of the age range was too young for pensions to be so dominating their thoughts when the Soviet Union fell.
>This has nothing to do with missing the retarded economic system everyone agreed was broken
It's disingenuous to speak of an "everyone" with no evidence (or even a remote possibility) that "everyone" agrees. Statements like these about "everyone" are merely repetitions of cant, thoughtless and performative rather than true.
>The question isn't 'was communism good?' It's 'was the dissolution of the soviet union good.'
You believe these questions aren't tied together at all now? You can't use life in Eastern Europe under the Soviet Union as your major example of communism as a "nightmare" reality, then, when contradicted by evidence, go back and say, "Well, it wasn't communism they liked, but the USSR," even though this was the very same "nightmare" reality of communism you were referring to. It's utterly schizophrenic argumentation.
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No.20256
>>20252
>It isn't only Russians in the graph, and it's purely speculative as an interpretation, especially when speaking as if this feeling is the only feeling and entirely representative the demographic as a whol
Which I addressed. 4 of the 9 former Soviet countries are below 50%
>As if the security of that system and the USSR had nothing to do with each other.
The security is what bankrupted them. The CIA believed the Soviet Union GDP was 50% of America's and they spent 33% on defense. The numbers were closer to the opposite: it was 33% of America's GDP and 50% was spent on defense. It was unsustainable.
>No, it's entirely coincidental that their pensions were destroyed when capitalism was introduced.
Because the money system was totally fake. This is why there was a massive barter based secondary economy. It was inevitably going to fall apart and those people were the unlucky ones.
America is going to have the same problem with social security - too few workers to support the old. Those about to retire will be angry when the system fails.
>Not only that, but a good part of the age range was too young for pensions to be so dominating their thoughts when the Soviet Union fell.
And were too young to have lived under communism also, but lived under the after-effect period
>It's utterly schizophrenic argumentation.
Well no, it isn't, and I explained why. Are you going to argue the Soviet system was a good one? Why did it dissolve? Why did the military coup to prevent its fall fail? Why was popular support so low? You're in cognitive dissonance because you want to support communism so you're arguing that the Soviet Union was great and perfect but fell apart but if there were any problems that is not communism.
That is schizophrenia
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No.20261
>>20252
>>20244
A FUCKING BLUE FAN
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No.20262
>>20244
>>20252
My family grew up in the Soviet Union, I can confirm you're full of shit.
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No.20263
>>20256
>The security is what bankrupted them. The CIA believed the Soviet Union GDP was 50% of America's and they spent 33% on defense. The numbers were closer to the opposite: it was 33% of America's GDP and 50% was spent on defense. It was unsustainable.
Actually, according to Yuri Maltsev Soviet GDP was closer to 5% of the US's total. Polite sage for doubleposting
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No.20271
>>20262
>Which I addressed.
You addressed that your interpretation was speculation without evidence?
>The security is what bankrupted them.
You're conflating the economic security of the pension system, which is what we were talking about, with the security of military spending. I've never heard anyone say that the USSR's pension system ended up "bankrupting" them.
>The CIA believed the Soviet Union GDP was 50% of America's and they spent 33% on defense. The numbers were closer to the opposite: it was 33% of America's GDP and 50% was spent on defense.
This is almost universally false. The CIA was using the GNP, not the GDP. Few estimates of military spending as a percentage of GNP are more than 20% on any given year during the later history of the USSR. The USSR's GNP is still under debate, but most estimate between 25%-60%. Any single number depends on the source you prefer.
>Because the money system was totally fake. This is why there was a massive barter based secondary economy.
The money system was "fake" and a barter economy existed, so pensions had to be destroyed by capitalism? What total nonsense.
>And were too young to have lived under communism also, but lived under the after-effect period
Living after the economic looting that occurred during the re-introduction of capitalism cannot be called living within any sort of socialist economy. You said earlier:
>I remember reading some slavposters on some other board where they were wanting pro-com Antifas to come visit Eastern Europe and preach about how good communism is, because they'd get the everloving shit beaten out of them for it. Slavs know how bad it truly was.
But now we're supposed to believe that younger Slavs, who never experienced socialism but the "after-effects" (which means nothing other than the restoration of capitalism), know better about living within a socialist country than those who actually lived within a socialist country. What?
>Are you going to argue the Soviet system was a good one?
Sure. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't bad either.
>Why did it dissolve?
Because Gorbachev and an entrenched bureaucracy privatized the USSR's public goods, looted parts of those for themselves, and created a "free market" economy with help from mostly US-based advisors, all against the wishes of the majority of the populace.
>Why did the military coup to prevent its fall fail?
The coup largely wasn't based in the military. The military was generally opposed to it, actually; that was one reason it failed, along with those in the various failures of those involved in it to rally support from the people. It was mainly an internal dispute between factions and not one the general public was involved in on either side.
>Why was popular support so low?
Available evidence from the referendum is to the contrary. But, please, continue talking about something you know nothing about. I'll be charitable and assume you're just pulling things out of your ass instead of lying intentionally.
>You're in cognitive dissonance because you want to support communism so you're arguing that the Soviet Union was great and perfect
Where did I say that? Am I now supposed to respond to pure inventions on your part?
>>20262
I've been talking mostly about a data set. Also, your family being from the USSR does not make you an expert on what the entirety of the populace of those in ex-Soviet countries believe.
>>20263
>Actually, according to Yuri Maltsev Soviet GDP was closer to 5% of the US's total.
Only according to him, really, since no other credible source backs up a 5% figure.
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No.20272
>>20271
>Pic
Was that poll taken during the USSR? There might be a bit of bias if that was the case.
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No.20273
>>20271
>This is almost universally false. The CIA was using the GNP, not the GDP
You're just being deliberately obtuse now; GNP and GDP are only significantly different when large amounts of outsourcing are involved–and the USSR's economy wasn't exactly opened up to free trade. Even were this not the case, and you could demonstrably prove that soyviet GNP was significantly smaller than GDP, you're just proving yourself wrong for us–because if a large portion of the USSR's capital was foreign-owned, it refutes your own claim that the economy was self-sufficient and functional. If anything, it only reinforces the idea that assistance from the West (both technological and economic) is what kept the commies limping along as long as they did before collapsing.
>The money system was "fake" and a barter economy existed, so pensions had to be destroyed by capitalism? What total nonsense.
No, you pinko, because the monetary system was so hopelessly inflated and dysfunctional people were forced to stop using it and resort to barter, Weimar Republic style. The pensions being given out were practically useless because the money they were printed on was useless. "Capitalism" insofar as you can even refer to voluntary exchange as some kind of corporeal entity, far from destroying pensions, improves the quality of life for everyone and allows for more wealth to be invested into retirement.
>Sure. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't bad either.
Friend, I have a timeshare in Siberia to sell you. No need to pay for it either, you'll just work it off when you arrive.
>
I've been talking mostly about a data set. Also, your family being from the USSR does not make you an expert on what the entirety of the populace of those in ex-Soviet countries believe.
It does however put me far closer to primary sources than you have ever been, allowing me to provide insight more legitimate than your "muh commies dindu nufffin" narrative.
>Only according to him, really, since no other credible source backs up a 5% figure.
I'd call a senior advisor to Gorbachev a credible source any day of the week.
I must echo my red-skinned friend's sentiment here:
A FUCKING BLUE FAN
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No.20277
>>20263
I mean, the USSR had a lower per-capita economy due to the poverty of the satellites, but their actual economy was strong as shit. It died during the Arms Race. Hell, Reagan incurred more debt than any other President himself, our economy would've died too without plenty of Eurobankers and Chinese dudes to borrow from.
Still though, >>20271 is completely full of shit. There's no source to that poll, and the question itself is loaded.
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No.20278
>>20277
>but their actual economy was strong as shit
How do you define "strong?" Even if you ignore per capita statistics and just look at gross output the USSR was still doing pretty badly; estimates vary as the commies were trying to hide the degree to which their shit was fucked, but it's clear that their economy was a fraction of the size of the US, whether you're looking at GDP or GDP/c. That disparity grows even further when you use something like GPP or Rothbard's PPR, because the USSR had a disproportionately high amount of government spending which unlike private ventures can't really be said to have a positive effect on the economy.
>Reagan incurred more debt than any other President himself, our economy would've died too without plenty of Eurobankers and Chinese dudes to borrow from.
I agree. But the fact that Reagan made bad decisions doesn't make the Soviet's actions more legitimate, and vice versa.
Unrelated, I think it's very fitting that the commie chose a cringe thread as the best place to sperg out about the USSR. It's really poetic.
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No.20280
>>20277
>>20278
Let's be real about the best economic system for a moment.
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No.20282
On topic try listening to the podcast in the first post of the thread linked >>20024 if you want to test your soy tolerance. I can hear how skinnyfat the hosts are.
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No.20283
>>20282
They've all got the soy vibe, there's no denying that lack of masculinity or physical strength. Soy aside 1 of them sounds biologically normal, the second is faking a nerd accent (that had better not be his real voice), the third is gay or at the very least has fag sexual tendencies. I think only that one sounds curable.
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No.20286
>>20278
Fascistposter here and massive anticommunist.
60s and 70s USSR economy was actually very good. They were growing rapidly and by the turn of the 80s had come to be the second largest in the world and only about 30% smaller than the US economy, which considering their building in only 35 years was very impressive, though the US had just gone through a terrible recession in the 70s.
But the best part of this is their economy only grew when they went the way of China, de-Stalinized, and embraced free market concepts.
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No.20287
>>20272
>Was that poll taken during the USSR?
It was taken during the Gorbachev era, shortly before the restoration of capitalism. Do you suppose he and the bureaucrats who largely supported him were trying to falsify the results against their own prerogatives? What a curious theory.
>>20273
>you could demonstrably prove that soyviet GNP was significantly smaller than GDP
There's nothing obtuse about pointing out that the measure being used wasn't GDP. It was simply one small falsification among many.
>the monetary system was so hopelessly inflated and dysfunctional people were forced to stop using it and resort to barter
You're describing what occurred mainly during the Perestoika era, due to economic liberalization. The problem of black markets and barter economies actually worsened during the 90s; capitalism didn't improve this.
>The pensions being given out were practically useless because the money they were printed on was useless. "Capitalism" insofar as you can even refer to voluntary exchange as some kind of corporeal entity, far from destroying pensions, improves the quality of life for everyone and allows for more wealth to be invested into retirement.
The latter statement isn't even true in the West (government pension plans are on the whole much better than market-based retirement solutions), let alone reflective of what happened to Russia. You're also contradicting either your own or the other person's point about the older people being angry over pensions destroyed: why would they be angry if more wealth was being invested into retirement under capitalism?
>Friend, I have a timeshare in Siberia to sell you. No need to pay for it either, you'll just work it off when you arrive.
This is mere bluster. Do you suppose everyone in the USSR lived in a Siberian gulag?
>It does however put me far closer to primary sources than you have ever been
I hope you are aware that anecdotes are not data. Personal stories are not overall historical trends, nor are they necessarily representative of the population as a whole. I'm surprised you don't know this.
>I'd call a senior advisor to Gorbachev a credible source any day of the week.
I'd rather use historical consensus on analyses of the economic data rather than the say-so of a single advisor to Gorbachev, but that's just me.
>>20277
>There's no source to that poll, and the question itself is loaded.
You know, you can look up the referendum and its results yourself. It's not an obscure event. I shouldn't have to baby you. Of course you're going to reject it anyway.
>>20278
>I think it's very fitting that the commie chose a cringe thread as the best place to sperg out about the USSR. It's really poetic.
You guys have been the ones sperging out about "muh pinkos" even before I posted a response, making shit up that I never said or that you have no evidence for, along with being triggered by the Hapes Consortium flag. I only started by posting a single image with one sentence. It's ludicrous how many responses have been composed of sheer invention, anecdotal evidence, and raw assertions backed by nothing but hot air.
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No.20288
>>20287
>shortly before the restoration of capitalism
The Soviets dropped Stalinism (which wasn't even what lefties call "true communism") in the fifites and instated free market capitalist reforms in the early sixties.
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No.20290
>>20282
>>20283
The thread mentioned that they also bring up Traviss, so I tried skimming through the podcast just to check whether or not they were shitting on her as well (I assume they did because they were stuttering fags). I gave up though, couldn't stand their voices.
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No.20294
>>20290
>Traviss
I've learned there's no quicker way to trigger leftshits.
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No.20325
>>20294
Ironic considering her views. But I guess "glorifying" war and battle is just too much for these pacifistic faggots to handle.
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No.21552
>>20017
Holy fuck it's bad there. They literally say that Chuck Wendig is better than Timothy Zahn because Zahn portrays the Empire semi-positively sometimes.
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No.21553
>>21552
Remember when Jedi Council Forums used to be politically incorrect and complain about Jaina being a Mary Sue? That was back in 2004 but even back then the site was semi-shit and full of pretentious ass hats.
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No.21554
>>21553
I've actually never been on there before. Before I discovered this board, the only Star Wars related part of the internet that I frequented was Wookieepedia. But I can't believe the gall of those fucking cucks. Imagine liking unironic stereotypical bugman Wendig more than Timothy fucking Zahn!
Also, I'm kinda pissed that this thread get derailed by people arguing about communism. I posted here to keep the thread to it's true purpose: mocking leftist normalfags and nu-wars fans
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No.21556
>>21553
TFN had some shitty posters, but it also had a good amount of cool people partly because the internet in general was better back then. Every site has shitty posters, but even the worst TFN posters back then couldn't begin to compare to some of those other sites, which were arguably the prime breeding ground for the SJW infestation we face today.
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No.21578
>>21554
It's gotten bad on a lot of the interwebs. Halfchan's Star Wars talks on tg are usually infested with dweeby cucks who gripe and moan that Disney's fine and it's only the /pol/boogeyman complaining about politics ruining SW.
Bring up the Empire doing anything good and see how quick you trigger the tism.
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No.21579
>>21578
Sounds like refugees from the /co/ general that got killed by the mods.
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No.21580
>>21578
>>21579
>halfchan
Stop being a battered housewife.
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No.21726
>>21580
It's difficult anon. It's more active than we are at /sw
>>21579
Self-admitted /co/ refugees and antifascists. The thread's been infested by them for months now and they've pretty much driven out anyone with a dissenting opinion, and Force help you if you dare to criticize the Jedi or the Rebels.
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No.21731
>>21726
>It's difficult anon. It's more active than we are at /sw
Indeed it is worrisome considering the amount of influence 4chan has (although its a far cry from what it used to be). /tg/ is in a sad state these days, and the tabletop scene is becoming more infested with casual 40k fans rather than actual 40k lore experts and its only helping to kill the fantasy part of it. Bring up classic D&D and you actually get laughed at for it being "kiddie shit". Happened to me irl
On the bright (or weird) side, a lot more sites outside of 4chan are going against Disney thanks to the Resistance cartoon. Even the faggots on shitholes like IGN and Anime News Network are on our side now. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3086583
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No.21733
>>21731
>Bring up classic D&D and you actually get laughed at for it being "kiddie shit"
the fuck
i'm a casual 40k fan who only likes dawn of war, but even i think this is dumb as fuck.
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No.21735
>>21733
The problem is the majority who dominate the scene now on half of 4/tg/ **and in the areas I frequent" are newfags, with most oldfags now remaining in niche/exclusive groups to avoid the casual newfaggotry infesting things. Its not as easy to join up with these niche groups irl which is the real bummer. Sure I could easily join up with a group online, but there's something about being there playing with others irl that has a nostalgic affect on me. Its been a long time since then. I just hope this is only a major problem on 4chan and in my areas rather than everywhere. It would just be a hope killer if otherwise.
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No.21743
>>21726
>Force help you if you dare to criticize the Jedi or the Rebels.
I'm not one of the full-blown "muh empire was the good guys" people, but to act as if the Rebels and especially the Jedi were beyond criticism is as retarded as it gets.
>>21731
>the tabletop scene is becoming more infested with casual 40k fans rather than actual 40k lore experts and its only helping to kill the fantasy part of it.
I don't get the how and why of this. Wouldn't those people just stay with Dawn of War and not bother with the tabletop stuff?
>Bring up classic D&D and you actually get laughed at for it being "kiddie shit". Happened to me irl
Fucking faggots, tabletop wouldn't even have been a thing without D&D. I hope they get mauled to death by dragons.
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No.21746
>>21743
They're the fa/tg/uy equivalent of ironic weebs. The kind of people that rely on content curation like lore channels, roleplaying podcasts and stuff like that to get into hobbies. 40K is hit hard because it's getting more and more mainstream.
It doesn't help that everything is fragmented into generals nowadays, so there's no overall community (or board culture or gatekeeping or whatever you want to call it) that makes people adapt or fuck off.
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No.21749
>>21743
The recent trend has been them chimping out anytime the Empire's brought up positively or Rebels are brought up negatively. They go off on tirades calling them /pol/fags or shitposters or Putin fetishists. It's some seriously cringe shit to read and I unironically think some kind of infiltration has occurred, either from half/co/ when its general got nuked or from one of the falling giants like Neofag, Tvtropes, or Resera, all of which have had definitively provable posts talking about getting into 4chan and which boards to go to, /tg/ being one of them, and with Disney's huge push for esjaydubya bullshit in Star Wars, it seems like they'd be flies to dog shit on that.
>Wouldn't those people just stay with Dawn of War and not bother with the tabletop stuff?
40k's pretty intimidating in all honesty if you're a total newcomer. The games can help you branch out into it. The problem with newfags is they play one campaign of DoW and then assume they're a Lore Master™ and everything they say is law. A lot of them are also your cancerous Chaosfags who play along with GW's game of making Chaos as bullshit overpowered as it possibly can be.
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No.21750
>>21746
This. We've lost the "survival of the fittest/git gud" element. And 40k and tabletop is getting plagued by newfags who are just in it because its mainstream or because they heard about it in the Big Bang Theory or about that 40k cameo in Ready Player One. I think Alfabusa's TTS series has helped to introduce a lot of casuals into 40k much like Disney's faggotry has invited wokefags into SW or made wokefags out of old fans. Shit's getting fucked all around.
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No.21759
>>21749
Don't let paranoia get the best of you, anon. It's more likely the fallout of that faggoty Rogue ddirector spouting off about the Empire being a white supremacist organization (despite all the "diversity" seen in the Disney version of both Empire and First Order) for the virtue signaling points. This is more likely to be the standard leftist call-and-response. Bring it up the next time someone tries to shout you down. Make them look stupid. React as if they are stupid. Watch and enjoy the fireworks, and stop despairing.
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No.21767
>>21735
>Sure I could easily join up with a group online, but there's something about being there playing with others irl that has a nostalgic affect on me.
You might not have a choice except to join or start a group online if the faggotry is as bad as you say. Whatever you do, you need to be the one to curate the content, not some random retard on YouTube. The GM has the final word on content in all /tg/-related things, so you need to show everyone that your content is better.
>>21746
>It doesn't help that everything is fragmented into generals nowadays, so there's no overall community (or board culture or gatekeeping or whatever you want to call it) that makes people adapt or fuck off.
There's only one way to solve this. You'll just have to build something up from scratch.
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No.21768
>>21759
Thank you brother. We'll all get through these dark times.
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No.21777
>>21768
Always remember, these antics and pure rhetoric are your primary tools, together with a knowledge of both continuities. Contrary to what some boards would have you believe, infographics are mainly for consolidating a foothold (and only after you're sure you've got one). Also, no sperging out at people. Be as caustic as you like, but the moment you lose composure is the moment you lose the argument to these bottomfeeders.
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No.22177
>>21731
40k has always been full of cancerous little twerps who shit up everything they touched. If you attended any sort of club you met a lot of those /co/ types. They followed the mainstream like it was their only purpose in life. Bought the latest movies on DVD, watched normie TV and spent a fortune on 40k.
These people aren't foreign elements they're the same piss weak betas who have been around /tg/ shit for decades now. It's the same way most of id software turned into cucks. The libertarianism of most /tg/ communities shifted towards commie as the mainstream started to push equality bullshit which they agreed to on libertarian grounds (they're not smart to figure out the difference).
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No.22178
>>21735
We're not even in niche groups any more. We simply left and walked away from many communities. Even the niche groups don't like racism or sexism so the old guard get booted the moment they say women don't belong in male communities or you're sick of niggers.
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No.33362
>>20188
The thing about leftie communist wannabes is that they have a very distorted idea of what communism is. They focus on the muh equality angle to the exclusion of everything else (most of them don't even understand the economics of it) and think that it was some kind of paradise for fags, feminists and degenerates of every kind. When in every communist country under the sun, fags and assorted degenerates like trannies were executed or imprisoned and feminism only extended insofar as women were forced to work. Other than that, they'd be surprised at how traditional many Soviet families were.
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No.33546
>>22178
How much of this is booted and how much is just plain walked away from it all? I don't want to deal with these fags any more so I left.
>>33362
True but also false. The USSR revolution flipped status so high was low and low was high. Which gave them a bunch of high status jews to genocide people. This system collapses rapidly because of obvious reasons. To prevent that they reflip the status around to build health families again and gulag all the trouble makers and tranny types. Once their usefulness is over they get rid of them to prevent another revolution.
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No.33550
>>20026
I have no idea what these people are talking about. The only time I ever saw /pol/ be the slightest bit positive towards the First Order was one time TFA was streamed and they were laughing about Starkiller Base firing holocaust lasers at the (((Republic))).
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No.33567
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>33362
There's something very interesting in how many of the lefties states of the XX century tended to behave more right wing sometimes than the west.
For example when you study the hippy movement during the soviet union I was suprised to know they didn't survive long since they were clamped down very early on and many of them forced to do conscription or jailed.
There's also the fact that during the stalinist era experimental art was heavily limited since most of the russian artist during that time were obssesed with "socialism realism" an opportunity that the CIA took to fund the modern arts to prove that the west was more "pogressive" than the USSR.
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No.33574
>>33567
I've been thinking about similar things recently—namely how much of the USSR was based on Russian chauvinism, in spite of the internationalism pushed by its intellectual forbears and the commies around today. My conclusion is that the subversives who would have pushed such xenophilia and self-flagellation were killed off in the Revolution. I imagine it went something like this:
>Comissar Sergei, we are of finding a bourgeoisie
<Bourgeoisie? Whatttaya talking about? I'm Intelligentsia, we're just like you goy-I mean proles! My ancestahs were oppressed by the bourgeoisie six million times harder than yours! Unhand me!
>he is having much gold in this chest, Vlad. And his house is of being better than mine. Be of getting the Mosin, comrade. He looks Bourgeois to me.
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No.33575
>>33574
That's literally what happened. Stalin took power then proceeded to purge a bunch of the Leninists/Trotskyist (((intelligentsia))), instituted several right-wing policies for practical reasons (marriage, exporting fags to Siberia/Autonomous Oblasts, destroying local ethnic cultures to enhance loyalty to the state) to keep the country from collapse. Communism during the pre-Cultural Marxism years ironically became more Strasserist in nature, as genuine nationalist sentiments spread especially after the Second World War.
It's the same with North Korea, they started out as radical revolutionaries, only to turn back once they realize those same values were about to be fatal. Now they are even more nationalistic than even Hitler's Germany is. However, where German's love of their country is voluntary, the Norks are forced by the state police/brainwashed from birth.
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