/sw/ - Star Wars

I actually have morbid curiosity of the nu-EU's lore. I heard that somehow everyone went full retard, and everything was basically done to make episode 7 make any damn sense for a set up. Does anyone have a good summery on what the hell happen? Trade Federation apparently won in the end, and everyone hates the New Republic. Also Leia got a huge smear campaign because SJW writers love being victims or something, She was Darth Vader's daughter! Lets join CIS and Czerka Arms! so no one trusted her.

>>12043

That's already far more than I know of what happened, the only thing I'll add is Operation Cinder.

>Sheev had a contingency plan in place to destroy his Empire in the event of his dead

>from hyperintelligent Machiavellian manipulator to "If I can't play with my toys, nobody can!"

I have to hand it to Disney Or EA or whoever the fuck, I really don't care anymore, their ability to shit on a franchise is almost transcendent. Even posthumously, they managed to completely tarnish the image of one of the most well-liked characters in the universe. Even RLM cocksuckers will admit taht Sheev is their favorite part of the prequel series.

>>12047

According to posters on thrawnsrevenge shill shill, it started in the Shattered Empire comics.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shattered_Empire,_Part_II

>Greg Rucka (Writer)

>Jordan D. White (editor)

>Heather Antos (assistant editor)

For Operation Cinder at least, you can blame these three people.

For the Contingency… you can blame Claudia Gray and none other than Chuck Wendig.

>>12040

I'd like to recommend a few books you can take into consideration. For good, you should look at Shadows of the Empire, Splinter of the Mind's Eye, The Han Solo Adventures, and Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina. First couple of books were stories good enough to be considered as movies at one point by Lucas, so that should vouch for their quality alone. The other two are short stories of various lengths that I thought really captured the source material very well for the Star Wars universe.

Meh would be Cloak of Deception, Phantom Menace, Labyrinth of Evil, and Force Unleashed I. First two fill in details explaining the background of why the republic is falling apart and how the Trade Federation became a prominent player. Not bad, but only interesting if you want to get really in depth with Episode I in particular. Labyrinth of Evil wasn't very interesting to me and it's the only one of the Star Wars books I've read that I can't remember anything about, good or bad, so I thought it'd fit perfectly for meh. FU is the game's plot but with enough detail to make sense, so if you actually thought the secret apprentice idea was cool, it's a good enough story. Far superior and logical compared to the game's plot, but that's how novels work. All the time in the world to focus solely on the story alone.

>>12043

Czerka's still around at this point? Is it like that in the proper EU, too?

>>12056

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Czerka_Arms/Legends

The wiki has them going up all the way to the NJO era, but none of the qualitative writing about them gets farther than the events of KOTOR. As a result, I would speculate that Czerka is just mentioned in a couple one-off lines, more as fanservice to players of the Knights games than really worldbuilding.

>>12058

That's a bit of a shame, but I appreciate the idea.

>>12038

>Dawn of the Jedi: Into the Void and ending with Crucible

Start with Tales of the Jedi and end with Legacy Volume 2. The Dawn of the Jedi series is pretty weak and the novel you posted is an even more forgettable tie-in to the comics.

>I'll be skipping the YA novels

Give Jedi Apprentice (Qui Gon/Obi Wan) and Jedi Quest (Obi Wan/Anakin) a chance. These are great for fleshing out the characters in their early days and prequel-era Jedi adventures in general.

>Now before I start this journey…is this a good idea? I've heard a lot of the EU is bad, but how bad?

There's years worth of good and bad content. When you go through it chronologically, the worst thing that can happen is being stuck in an era with several boring stories set one after another (to me that would be most of the TOR tie-in stuff)

>Would I be able to endure such a project and keep my brain intact?

Yes, but you might still get bored. The EU just doesn't have one big overarching story and you might miss out on how stories from different eras tie into each other.

You know how people argue whether they should watch the OT and the PT chronologically or in release order? The same applies to the EU, except a lot more convoluted:

For example, you'll get a bit more mileage out of Dawn of the Jedi if you've already been introduced to the Rakata and the Infinite Empire in KOTOR and actually want to learn more about them.

Or if you've already read Dark Empire and The Jedi Academy Trilogy you'll get a lot of callbacks in Tales of the Jedi (same authors).

Then there's numerous stories in the post-RoTJ New Republic era where Han meets "old friends" from his smuggler days, most of which have their chronological appearance in the Han Solo Trilogy which is set before the OT.

Or Outbound Flight and Survivor's Quest, two different books that explore a piece of lore that is introduced in the Thrawn Trilogy and all of these stories are set decades apart from each other.

And so on.

>>12058

>>12059

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rebel_Alliance_Sourcebook

Ectually, they first show up here, in 1990.

>>12051

>Greg Rucka

I always found him overrated.

>>18249

just so everyone knows the republic commando series is unskippable if you pretend to like the clone wars/rise of the empire era. True Colors is god tier.

>>18249

also do not read plagueis before reading cloak of deception or darth maul: shadow hunter as it will spoil those books. Even Maul: Lockdown sort of gets spoiled in Plagueis.

>>18253

Plagueis should be the last thing you touch before starting the phantom menace

>>18307

I'd move the PT down one tbh

>>18307

Add the Living Force modules to grandmaster. They actually include a lot of interesting fleshing out of the EU, like more details on non-Incom Z95 clones. The Almas Academy is actually referenced elsewhere so I wouldn't put it lower. The cooperate sector sourcebook should be moved up to master: It was a major sourcebook for an RPG system that was hardly obscure. Actually RPG sourcebooks in general should go to the middle/top of master.

>French exclusive RPG scenerios

Is there a translation of these?

>>18307

>>18318

>>18319

>>18322

>>18325

Wanna be stupid like Splendid Ap?

Originally published in Dig Magazine

by David West Reynolds

Luke Skywalker raced his landspeeder across the wide-open salt flats of the desert planet Tatooine. The twin morning suns shone like star-bursts in the windshield, and the wind tousled his hair. "It's just as great as I always though it would be!" the 16-year-old said. "I can't believe I finally saved up enough to buy my own landspeeder. It's freedom, Biggs!"

Luke's best friend, Biggs Darklighter, sat in the passenger seat, trading grins with Luke. "It runs pretty sweet, hotshot," he said. "You don't think it's too beat up?" Luke asked, "I think it's great," Biggs assured him. Luke was staying with Biggs for a few days, since the harvest was in and his Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru could finally allow him some time away from the moisture farm. Luke was supposed to be sticking close to the Darklighter place, but the two friends had other plans. They were plotting to do a little exploring.

The bleached white domes of the Douz outpost appeared on the sandy horizon, and soon Luke was pulling up in front of a power station. The speeder needed a charge.

"Where are you two headed?" asked the old mechanic at the station, as he brought cables out to hook up to Luke's speeder. "Metameur," Biggs said. "We just want to take a look at the freighter landing pad there." "Maybe see a spaceship!" Luke added. The old mechanic smiled. "IvIetameur's a long way" "We figured we'd take a shortcut through Desolation Canyons," Luke said. "Wouldn't recommend that," said the mechanic. "Might run into Sand People." "We'll just be passing through," Biggs said. "We won't provoke them." "Them Sand People are savages," the mechanic said harshly. "There's reason we call 'em Tusken Raiders. They'll kill anybody. They killed off all the Ghorfas, you know, and they'd kill you, too." "Who were the Ghorfas?" Luke asked. "Ghorfas were creatures that used to live out here, way back before the settlers came. You ever seen the slave hovels in some of the old towns?" Luke and Biggs nodded.

"Most of those were built by Ghorfas and turned into slave quarters when the Ghorfas left," the mechanic explained. "You find their ruins in the desert sometimes, too. They built things; weren't nomadic savages like those Tusken Raiders riding their banthas all over the desert. All those Tuskens ever build are walls around their sacred wells. Legends say there's a lost city of the Ghorfas out there somewhere, but anybody that's gone looking for it ain't come back."

As they zoomed away from the few buildings that made up the Douz outpost, Luke considered the possibilities. "If we don't take the shortcut, we'll never be able to make it to Metameur before we have to turn back," he said. "Looks like Desolation Canyons then," Biggs replied, with a grin. The rugged canyon lands rose on the horizon, and the boys turned off the regular route. Luke nosed the speeder through a gully in the lowlands and slowed as he steered through the hot rocky wastes. Biggs glanced up as they saw the entrance to a large canyon far ahead. "Sky's darkening," he said with concern. Luke looked behind them. "Oh, no," he yelled. "A sandstorm!"

>>18327

"If it catches us in the open, we've had it!" Biggs said grimly. "Get into those canyons!" Luke hit the accelerator. "I'm on it!" The two raced through the rough landscape, shooting around huge boulders and through arroyos. Luke was aiming for the canyons in the distance, but had lost sight of it in all the hills and valleys. "Storm's getting closer!" said Biggs. "I'm trying!" said Luke, as he sweated at the controls. He knew that if he wrecked the speeder they'd be in even more trouble. Biggs hit the switch that would close the speeder's canopy to a sealed bubble. The back half slid over them from behind the seat, just as the roar of the storm and it's pelting sand caught up with them. "I can hardly see anything!" Luke yelled. "I have no idea where we are going!" "Hang on, hotshot, you can do it!" Biggs told him. Luke fought to stay ahead of the storm's core. Soon, rock walls were visible in the sandy haze. "Over there!" Biggs called out. "The rock overhang," Luke said. "I see it." He nosed the landspeeder over to shelter under the protective mass of a great cliff. They opened the canopy. "Look at that," Biggs said, glancing out into the canyon. "The storm's fading." "Uh, Biggs," Luke said, his eyes peering toward the inner reaches of the cliff's hollow. "Look at this." There before them was a ruined adobe city, built into the cliff wall. A giant stepped structure in the middle was surrounded by several terraces of round and square dwellings with strange slots for windows.

It's the lost city of the Ghorfas!" Luke said in a whisper. The two boys cautiously moved through the silent city, their heartbeats seeming louder than their footsteps. Luke noticed a pattern in the way certain stones were put together. "Biggs, look," he said. "That wall there is built just like the walls the Tusken Raiders use around their wells. That's strange." "But those ruins over there look just like the slave ruins in old villages, and the mechanic said the Ghorfas built those," Biggs said.

He pointed out a mass of cell-like rooms piled atop each other, linked by narrow stairways. Then they found the tombs. "These are Sand People tombs," Luke said uneasily. He recognized the crude rectangular slabs on the ground, with standing stones at each end. They stretched in lines deep into the shadows of the cliff hollow "Uncle Owen and I found some by accident once and he told me what they were. He said we were lucky we were never seen near them or we'd have been killed." "If these are Sand People tombs, then they must have killed all the Ghorfas who lived here and taken over their temple city" Biggs concluded. Luke was walking farther back into the cave-like hollow of shadows. "The most recent graves are near the front," he observed. "There are older ones back here. Look how the shape changes." "Right, and look how they start using little pictures carved into them rather than just the symbols the Sand People use," Biggs noted. "Those must be the Ghorfa tombs. Luke, where do the Sand People graves stop and the Ghorfa tombs start?" he asked.

>>18328

“There's no clear dividing line," Luke said."They just gradually change from one to the other. Strange. Why would the Sand People use the same cemetery as the Ghorfas they killed off?" Walking far back in the shadows, Luke found tombs that were much more carefully built and detailed, with many pictures covering them. He knelt to examine them. "Look at these pictures," Luke said slowly. "They show early settlers coming to Tatooine and using big machines to suck all the water wells dry" Biggs knelt at another tomb. He could see from the cracks and the weathering on them that these in the back were definitely older, but the carvings looked much more advanced. And the pictures told a very clear story. "This one shows the Ghorfas dying of thirst," he said. "They didn't have enough water to stay in their city" Luke looked back at the stone work and the line of tombs. He saw how they gradually changed to the rough, crude Sand People graves with only symbols and no pictures.

Tusken Raiders had spotted the landspeeder. Biggs and Luke knew that they would certainly be killed if they were caught." "Biggs," he said, "the Sand People didn't kill off the Ghorfas. They were the Ghorfas. And the farmers who settled in this area before us destroyed their culture by stealing all their water." Biggs understood. "They had to become nomadic," he said, "And now they are the Sand People. They are the Tusken Raiders!" "No wonder they hate us farmers," Luke said. At that moment Luke heard the very last sound he wanted to hear: the low guttural growl of a bantha in the canyon. And then he heard a savage voice ring out. There were Tusken Raiders out there, and they had spotted the landspeeder.

Biggs and Luke sprinted for the speeder, adrenaline racing through their veins. They knew that they would certainly be killed if they were caught. As they vaulted into the speeder, they saw six Banthas and at least two dozen Sand People in the far end of the canyon. Luke activated the jet turbines as the Raiders began to stream forward with hideous war cries. One of them hurled his gaderffii stick, a huge heavy metal club with a sharp pointed end. It hit the rear deck of the landspeeder and Luke could hear the windshield underneath cracking from the impact. But the turbines were suddenly at full blast and the hovercraft zoomed away. They emerged into the rocky wastelands, only to find other Tusken Raiders lurking behind boulders. Luke repeatedly steered away from them, becoming hopelessly lost, until it seemed as if he and Biggs would never reach the dunes. And then there was sand ahead, and wide-open space, and the Desolation Canyons were behind them. They were safe. The two boys hardly spoke as they made their way back to the Douz outpost by the light of the setting suns.

When Luke was home again days later, he started to tell Uncle Owen over dinner about his adventure. "Desolation Canyons!" said his gruff Uncle. "If I'd thought you'd go near that area I would have taken that land-speeder away from you. It's too dangerous." "But what if there was something to learn?" Luke pressed. "This legendary lost city…it might help us understand. .. things. Maybe we could learn to be at peace with the Tuskens. I think you need to understand the past to understand the present." "No, Luke," Uncle Owen replied softly. "The past is best left alone." Luke went out and looked at the sunset from the edge of the lonely crater that was his home. "The past does hold clues," he thought to himself. "And now I know who the Sand People really are." Luke wondered what clues his own past held. Why did he always yearn for something more than the farm? What had his father been like? Someday, perhaps, he would learn. Someday the past would help him understand who he was, too.

>>18337

Where'd yours go, faggamuffin?

>>18330

>>18333

http://www.starwarstimeline.net/Lost%20Books.htm Now czech this list out.

http://www.starwarstimeline.net/Cult%20Encounters.htm It'd be nice if someone could add this to the Bedlam Spirits level, given how it's not just hard-to-find and memey, but actually informational and entertaining to read.

>>18331

Well it was published in 1999. But honestly, Owen's response tells us that it's already much too late to heal things. Better to just kill them now.

>>18339

deleted and reploaded because I noticed I was missing another grand master junior book

>>18307

The Empire Strikes Back arcade game shouldn't be that low It was included as a bonus in Rogue Squadron 3 so quite a few people have played it. Should be no further than Master with the rest of the Rogue Squadron games.

>>12038

The overwhelming majority ranges from meh-tier to shit-tier, and even the better stuff is often uneven at points. Off the bat here's some things to ignore

>Anything from Pablo Hidalgo

>Any WEG book that pertains to the Original Trilogy or that involves OT characters

>Anything by authors who were big-name Star Trek writers before or during their Star Wars stint

>Anything from 1983 or prior aside from the novelizations. This includes the Holiday Special (fun to laugh at/with but not worth being canon) and the cheap cashgrab Marvel comics.

>Any EU content from 2007-ish onward. Though anything past 2012 is Disney canon, some really terrible authors slapped a few bits into the EU up until 2013.

>Majority of the games, primarily anything related to Starkiller (The Force Unleashed) and Tyber (Forces of Corruption).

This will cut down the EU by about 60-70%, but what you've just read and heard from others before is by no means exaggerated: seriously, the majority of the EU is bad. The Nu-EU is worse, but don't let that fool you into thinking all of the EU was good.

>>18368

>pablo hidalgo

Last I heard he started doing rants on twitter or something right? I can't remember honestly, I just recall someone posting in another thread that recently he started acting like a bigger shitstain than usual. Can't remember if it was in a twitter link or something.

>>18330

More like descending

>>18368

>Anything from 1983 or prior aside from the novelizations. This includes the Holiday Special (fun to laugh at/with but not worth being canon) and the cheap cashgrab Marvel comics.

Aren't Splinter of the Mind's Eye and some of the early Han Solo novels from that time widely considered decent? Honestly, having the Holiday Special be canon doesn't really do any damage. It was a boring and shit film for all of the live-action segment, but that's due to how absolutely mundane the events portrayed were. it's too bad it killed off the idea of writing about civilians in the SW universe.

>>18372

He worked on a few old books, got massively overpromoted by Disney, and yeah, he's mainly now known for his Twitter rants and general SJW shittery, as well as defending Disney to the point that it's blatant he's being paid. Likewise, they now call him the "Yoda" of the franchise and the great loremaster, even though prior to the Disney buyout he was obscure as shit. It's like if your night shift janitor got promoted to company president.

>>18373

>Plagueis

Yeah, didn't mean to exclude that. Even then, Plagueis is hit and miss. Don't forget that it basically makes it official that Anakin was created by Palpatine.

>Traviss

She gets more hate than she deserves, and a lot of cucks take issue with her pro-military stance. Still, she let out a pretty retarded online rant and threatened to cut some dude's throat for dissing her book in a polite way, and she was pretty wanky on Mandalorians.

>>18375

>Splinter of the Mind's Eye

Nah, that's the one people hate on. It's where Luke beats up Vader because Obi-Wan possesses him or something, and I think it's where Vader trips and falls on his own arm.

>>18375

>some of the early Han Solo novels from that time widely considered decent?

the solo novels are yes. I haven't read those but always heard good things about them. I heard the ac crispin trilogy is good too.

>>18377

>Plagueis

Don't lie, faggot. That is not how it happened. The Force created him in response to Hego's bad touch. Palpatine had nothing to do with it.

>pro military

Huh. That was really a criticism back in the day? I must not have been paying attention.

>>18385

Landon novels are also fun, great for homebuilding both the near and distant past. There has never been a droid like Vuffi Re like either.

>>18377

> pro-military stance

I'm reading through Hard Contact right now, and based on how she wrote the Commandos and her other Star Wars and Halo books it seems reasonable she has that stance. Soys just don't understand pro-military doesn't necessarily equal pro-war it seems.

>Nah, that's the one people hate on. It's where Luke beats up Vader because Obi-Wan possesses him or something, and I think it's where Vader trips and falls on his own arm.

Huh, I heard it was one of George's favorite EU novels.

>>18385

>there are two Han Solo trilogies

like I needed any more reasons not to see the Solo movie. The Paradise snare was pretty enjoyable too.

>>18384

Yeah, I really like the fact they've pretty much a story in every genre in the EU. is that Star Wars cookbook canon?

>>18389

I never read a lot of rebuke for Traviss' books because of her military sci-fi taste or style. Most of the nerd rage boiled up from her Mandalorian wankery and unflattering portrayal of the Jedi to the point where fans were saying she wrote their beloved psychic knight-monks out of character and contrary to the established lore just to make her precious space Spartans look better. Some people didn't like her gay mando love pair idea either, but that was mostly ignored because it didn't really dominate the story. I'm actually kind of surprised Disney hasn't done anything with that.

>>18413

I dont know about the cookbook, but the items from that Dexter's diner menu that used to be up on the sw website are.

>>18417

>gay mando love pair idea

I don't remember this. Is that from LOTF? I've only read RepCom and ImpCom.

>>18418

My favorite part of his backstory is the revelation that Dexter owned a donut shop.

>>18417

According to wookieepedia, there was some online drama about "3 million clones" where traviss ended up calling people "Talifans". I can't really confirm she went out of her way to make the Jedi look bad though. Etain is portrayed pretty positively in hard contact, and Ahsoka acting slightly psychopathic in the TCW novel is something that Anakin has been shown to do as well. IIRC Ahsoka was given to Anakin as a padawan because she was a lot like him and the Jedi council hoped that him having to train her would have them work out their issues of recklessness and such.

>>18377

>she let out a pretty retarded online rant and threatened to cut some dude's throat for dissing her book in a polite way

Sounds like a typical anon.

>>18421

>I can't really confirm she went out of her way to make the Jedi look bad though.

I've read the entire series, the jedi hate thing is a total meme invented by retards. Here's what people seem to forget when reading those books: nothing is ever seen or told through an objective lense, you're constantly cycling through different characters. You only know as much as they know, you perceive the reality through their eyes.

>>18377

>She gets more hate than she deserves

Pretty sure she compared fans to the Taliban because they didn't like her insistence there were only 3 million clones (Note the US alone fielded over 10 million in WW2).

>>18431

>her insistence there were only 3 million clones (Note the US alone fielded over 10 million in WW2).

Out of all the stuff she ever pulled, that was the most ridiculous. I can't tell if she was insane, refused to acknowledge a mistake that maybe she meant 3 billion or something or was on her period. Whatever it was, it was around that time when I saw people start losing interest in Kennedy or smack talking her. I also recall her getting into a massive verbal fight on a forum with a guy who questioned her decision on the matter. The whole thing escalated insanely, to the point where the whole argument ended up deleted at some point.

>>18421

>>18423

Soys hated her portrayal of Jedi for the same reason soys hate KOTOR 2 and Avellone, because they have shit taste and are obsessed with Star Wars being super dumbed down and simple with no depth or moral questions and anything even slightly short of that isn't Star Wars in their soy-addled minds.

Same soyboys are also frequent defenders of Disney, so go figure.

>>18440

I liked the story of KOTOR 2 but preferred the characters of KOTOR 1 tbh.

>>18440

Cynical deconstructionism is an edgy teen's idea of depth and complexity.

>>18470

>Cynical deconstructionism is an edgy teen's idea of depth and complexity.

yes, but it's also a hallmark of cultural marxism. anything that emphasizes tradition, values, standards of quality, etc. is despised by them.

>>18473

RepCom is all about tradition, values, family etc

>>18440

No, the reason they hate her isn't because she deconstucts, but actively rewrites characters and settings to fit her worldview to the point where they're unrecognizable. She did the same to Halo, which had a lot of morally grey nuance to the creation of Spartan IIs. Traviss walks in, changes every character to shit on the project creator despite saving the galaxy with Spartan IIs, and completely mangles the Halo setting. To her, it's not about a setting being Black-and-White like Star Wars, or more grey like Halo. Her MO is noble savage warriors good, all science bad. It's reflected in her work time again from SW to Halo to Gears of War. She's a one trick pony that doesn't play well in EU sandboxes unless it matches her beliefs in the case of Gears. Thinking her work is a deconstruction or moral questioning like KOTOR 2 is insincere. She stacks the deck to be one sided for the faction she likes while the other stands there and takes it without fighting back.

>>18489

That may be true for her Star Wars books where she used other people's characters extensively, but it's absolutely false for her Halo books. The characters in Glasslands and The Thursday War are entirely consistent with how they have previously been portrayed. I've read both of those books, and neither faction has been bastardized. They're portrayed pretty fairly. ONI trying to fuck over the elites is entirely expected, because ONI have always been bastards that try to ensure humanities future by any means necessary.

That fuckery may be present in her Legacy of the Force novels and her Gears stuff, but it has not been in Hard Contact, the TCW novel, or either of those Halo books. Maybe that's because Halo and the Repcom novels were using characters that fit her beliefs already.

>noble savage warriors good, all science bad

funny, you'd think she'd hate the clones and love the Jedi if that was the case, as the Jedi rely the least on technology out of any Star Wars military force. The commandos are practically I walking science lab compared to a Jedi.

>>18489

Didn't 343i start the "shitting on Halsey" meme? I played Halo 4 and no one seemed to like her. I could easily see 343i being behind that directive and Traviss just going along with it since that's where 343i was taking the next game and the franchise itself. They probably had a few meetings and gave her a quick rundown on what was going on, some story documents and told her what they'd like to see get covered. After all, those books were meant to hype Halo 4 and to bridge it with Halo 3. I mean talk about foreshadowing, what with Cortana being the villain now? First Halsey, now her personal clone? I don't think Traviss is the convenient scapegoat some people make her out to be. For example, in Republic Commando, the likes of Skirata had their hypocrisy exposed by the Jedi characters toward the later books. Everyone was coming to terms with each other. That type of thing was like a recurring theme, building trust etc. Etain acted like a woman sometimes, but there definitely wasn't an agenda towards Jedi or anything.

>>18307

>almost everything on the first 5 tiers

>Dark Empire endnotes

brb, attempting to fuck with the timeline since apparently I can do that

>>18492

I thought only Bedlam spirits could fuck with time. The Celestials just erased Anakin, Ahsoka and Kenobi's memories.

>>18493

The Son was able to show Anakin an accurate vision of his future. He would have succeeded in changing the timeline if the Father hadn't erased Anakin's memory of seeing himself becoming Darth Vader. The Father fucked up enormously there, honestly. In that scene, the Father mentions that the Son "broke the law of time", which presumably means that Celestials have time travel/time alteration capabilities. I want to see the book where that law is written down, mostly so I can set it on fire and put it out by taking a piss on it.

>>18421

>Ahsoka acting slightly psychopathic in the TCW novel is something that Anakin has been shown to do as well. IIRC Ahsoka was given to Anakin as a padawan because she was a lot like him and the Jedi council hoped that him having to train her would have them work out their issues of recklessness and such.

Psychopathic isn't the right description of either of them. I haven't read the TCW novel though, but both of them are extremely loyal to those they care about, to the point of being willing to bend or break the rules in the name of protecting them. Psychopaths don't care about anyone but themselves.

>>18491

I think the Spartan project starting before the Human-Covenant war to combat human insurgency has been a thing since the beginning of the series. It was never portrayed to be anywhere close to morally right, but it ended up saving humanity. I could see easily people distrusting Halsey based on previous lore. You know, kidnapping children and experimenting on them to create super-soldiers. imagine the reaction of the public if they found out

On another note, has anybody read the Rebels tie-in novel? Other than having a not-Vader/Grievous villian, it's surprisingly alright for nuCanon- especially when you compare it to Rebels itself and the new movies.

>>18496

> which presumably means that Celestials have time travel/time alteration capabilities

Not necessarily- accurate predictions of the future don't really imply time-travel. However, it would make sense that the Ones frown on using their yuge force power to interfere with events.

>both of them are extremely loyal to those they care about, to the point of being willing to bend or break the rules in the name of protecting them

Yeah, psychopath probably isn't the word. Your characterization matches how they were in the novel pretty well.

>>18497

>Not necessarily- accurate predictions of the future don't really imply time-travel.

Maybe not, but given what the Father says, there's at least a possibility that they do. Various Force users have gotten visions of the future many times, but they're rarely as detailed as what the Son shows Anakin, and they almost never pertain to events in the very near future that would stand to alter all of galactic history if they were changed. The most accurate and detailed fortune telling outside of that is probably Kreia in the end of KotOR II, and the events she talks about are many years away. Some of them are even millennia outside of the lifetimes of any of the characters in the game, meaning that they're irrelevant for all practical purposes. The events the Son showed Anakin are all within his lifetime, and some would happen in only a couple of years. If there was ever a time in Star Wars when a seer could have changed the future, that was it.

>However, it would make sense that the Ones frown on using their yuge force power to interfere with events.

This is a fairly common sentiment in science fiction and fantasy universes that feature some kind of timeline policing organization, or really any extremely powerful groups or beings that exist outside of normal society. They often get berated for their dedication to the status quo by the main cast, as they should.

>>18328

>>18329

>>18327

A colleague has put this one into a better format:

https://pastebin.com/Fc9rGPcj

Also, anyone got more things to add to the chart?

>>18513

The Han Solo trilogy is missing, I'd put it somewhere in Master due to its age.

>>18473

The only problem is Star Wars itself helped to propagate cultural marxism, since it pushed the orderly, stable, authoritarian society as "bad" and this rebellious, combative, youthful movement as "good".

Much as we may not want to admit the game was rigged from the start. Star Wars was cucked from the get-go, and some people are so deeply taken by it that their minds are blown if you even hint at liking the Empire, because authoritarianism is bad, military power is heinous, and justice is fascism, and fascism is evil. That itself is much more a death of traditional values than deconstructing said Marxist-infused bullshit.

>>18525

that's true, and I think that's why alot of fans/artists have portrayed the Empire in a more sympathetic light, or rebooted the concept with imperial remnant/Thrawn/etc.

with that said, Star Wars is a modern epic. it's about the hero's journey, good vs evil, and redemption, which is enough to make up for the cucked aspects.

if we get a real sequel trilogy, I'd like to see it portray the New Republic in a negative way, with Thrawn/imperial remnant having redeeming qualities.

>>18531

>who grew up with republic commando, army building clonetrooper action figures, mandalorians, anakin skywalker coloring books, battlefront 2 and ironic hitler memes

dad?

>>18525

Anybody who unironically approves of fascism and and thinks the Empire's authoritarian exercise of power is just in-universe or led to stability and simultaneously claims to be a Star Wars fan is objectively retarded and desperately trying to make a card-carrying Democrat's space opera fit their world view. Just because SJWs don't understand the Galaxy doesn't mean the aut-right or other reactionaries have a clue either, and it boggles the mind how they can delude themselves into believing so.

>>18526

>Star Wars is a modern epic. it's about the hero's journey, good vs evil, and redemption

And those are the only "traditional values" it needs. Now or ever. Star Wars is timeless because it is the universal myth transcending yet fed by history, culture, and language.

Even all of the EU content which gave the Empire a fair shake at having its position rationalized was never allowed to portray their side of the conflict a morally correct. At most it fleshed out the setting to permit Rebels to go too far and be held accountable while Imperials could have good intentions but never fix something corrupted at its core. It's okay to still enjoy getting into that head space of somebody who would believe in the Empire or the Sith and from an in-universe point of view support what Word of God declares the forces of Evil, but it's next level naive to think this is something that just started happening in 2014.

>>18573

but you can easily play as a morally decent sith or imperial in swtor

>>18573

>>sith says empire isn't moral

At least I'm human, Sith spit.

>>18573

>Anybody who unironically approves of fascism

Hey buddy, stopped reading there.

I think you got the wrong door. The Halfcuck'd club is four blocks down.

>>18573

Assuming you're not just shitposting and/or trying to cast some bait, I don't think that we should all limit ourselves to one man's worldview, especially when said man that, despite all his qualities and merits, has had a history of objective gross mishandling of his own license and lack of understanding on what he truly wants it to be. It's called "Death of the author" where the author's intent and the text therein are not intwined and where interpretation of the reader takes hold. So therefore, George Lucas may say "The Empire is bad", but a reader may say "Well, I disagree", and that's perfectly fine.

>>18607

Death of the author is retarded Marxist propaganda. As is, I might add- claiming 40 years later that Gandalf or Dumbledore were in a gay marriage to spite ebil gooberglackers.

>>18607

>has had a history of objective gross mishandling of his own license and lack of understanding on what he truly wants it to be

I know this isn't the focus of what you two were discussing, but "gross mishandling"? How? I can't think of a single thing he has done wrong except getting old and selling to disney or the ocassionally bumpy road that was TCW (a lot of which was Filoni anyway). I don't care how many times he has changed his mind; if there's one guy who objectively knows what to do with the license, it's him. You hear some people say Lucas was more of a business man than an artist, because of his smart moves with the licensing & merch rights, but they don't realize that his business acumen was merely a side effect of his pedantic desire to make sure star wars was represented correctly, the way he wanted it–that his idea (his art) was not being dragged down by low quality trash riding on the coattails of the IP. (this is why he got mad at stuff like Jaxxon) The EU we got, the focus on freshness and continuity and all that, was because of his encourgagment really early on. For example, he gave Zahn WEG material for his thrawn books and said "here you should use these". He introduced Terry Brooks to the history of the Sith and Darth Bane as backstory so that the guy could better understand what he was doing when writing the TPM novelization. He commisioned Genndy to create the beloved 2003 Clone Wars micro series because he saw potential, which in turn spawned TCW for a new generation of kids. He always had the right idea and generally speaking, hired the right people for the right tasks. If anything, the core "problem" or "feature" of Star Wars is that we have yet to see a third party that's able to handle the IP properly. It's not a (((pure coincidence))) that things have gone to shit as soon as Lucas gave it away. Even licensing isn't some independent magic money printing machine, these things needs context and a guiding hand. At this rate, I think everything that has transpired will eventually transform into a global reality check for star wars fanboys and the disney handlers. Maybe Star Wars isn't as easy to milk as Disney would like to think and maybe Lucas will eventually get the respect he deserves. I wouldn't be surprised if the disaster that is nu-star wars, somehow ends up acting as a catalyst in dialing down the sjw garbage in modern entertainment in the near future. The ideological indoctrination you see in these films now could easily backfire and have a reverse effect on the masses. In fact, it's happening right now as we quite well know.

>>18573

>Anybody who unironically approves of fascism

what's so bad about fascism? it's just another way of organizing society.

the Empire has plenty of positive qualities. IMO its main flaw is the Sith leadership, and there's no reason there couldn't be another iteration of the Empire that kept the Sith out of power (or at least the top ranks).

>>18613

>"gross mishandling"? How?

ewoks, the prequels, need I say more?

there's no reason you can't disagree with the creator. and ultimately, canon should be decided by the fans.

>>18624

>ewoks, the prequels

some of his best work

>>18626

I'm sure you're being completely sincere. but there's an even better example: the specialized editions. while some added sfx were cool, other changes were for the worse. Lucas wants the specialized editions to be the 'final version' and for the original theatrical cut to fade away, something the fans are working hard to prevent. that's the best example of Lucas shitting things up and the fans knowing what's best.

>>18627

On that note, which of the original films got changed the least? It seems like A New Hope got the majority of changes, while the other ones are practically untouched in comparison.

>>18628

I've only watched specialized IV, so I can't comment on the others. from what I've heard, V and VI were still vandalized, but not to the same extent.

in particular, specialized IV inserts a scene in which Han meets with Jabba the Hutt outside the cantina. aside from it being a dumb addition on many levels, it also screws up the pacing, yet Lucas insisted on it.

>>18628

ESB probably, the only thing that comes to mind is the additional shot of the Wampa, while ROTJ had that song and dance in Jabba's palace.

>>18631

Sheev's hologram was changed to Ian McDiarmid too.

>>18608

There's a difference between postmodernist and modernist deconstruction, though. In this case death of the author is the side of supporting the faction that the author wrote as evil that many would consider good. While you're mostly correct that postmodernist deconstruction/Death of the Author is a cultural marxist weapon, remember that it's not exclusive, just like fascism embraces elements of socialism, but is the total antithesis to communism, which also calls for socialism.

In this case it's arguing that the qualities that the ignorant perceive as "bad" that make the Empire "bad" aren't bad.

>>18637

Well, that;s not death of the author. It's just that official sources have provided enough information for people to make the argument that the bad guys aren't so bad after all. Completely different than Twitter lefties claiming LOTR is an endorsement of communism.

>>18703

>>What's so bad about Marxism? It's just another way of organizing humanity.

for the record, I disagree with totalitarianism, both right and left wing. however, I would argue that communism has a worse track record historically, and fascism has shown itself to be more viable, although still a worse form of govt than the republic. I think timocracy would be a better alternative to a fascist dictator.

>>ultimately canon should be decided by the fans

>You are no better than the cultural Marxist revisionists you complain about. You simply would prefer a different politisperg goal. No, artistic intent and meaning are not democratic or subject to popular revision.

not true. cultural marxists subvert every creative work without regard to the original vision. they take an idea, and use it solely as a vehicle for their ideology. they also tend to infiltrate institutions and override the popular will; which is another reason to democratize canon.

when I say fans should be the arbiters of canon, I don't mean they have a license to transform a work according to whim. the fans should be responsible arbiters, working with the creators vision in mind, and making informed decisions on what can or cannot be altered. a democratic/communal process should ensure responsibility.

the Empire is the antagonist of the OT, there is no denying that as canon. however, the idea that they are pure evil, or that their form of society has no redeeming qualities, is the sort of thing the fans can dismiss, even if Lucas himself maintains that position. we have the liberty to reinterpret the merits of the Empire, we do not have the license to reframe the central conflict of the OT.

another good example is specialized vs despecialized. George Lucas wants specialized to be the final version, and for the original cut to disappear and be forgotten. fans have been working hard to ensure that does not happen, in spite of George Lucas' wishes. would you say that the fan restorations (Harmy, 4K77) are wrong, and we should embrace the inferior specialized editions, simply because of what the "Word of God" says?

tl;dr: canon should be decided by fan communities who treat the source material responsibly. this would be the best possible check and balance against creators being dumb and cultural marxist infiltration.

>>18716

That seems like a sensible way to run it, if you've put the rights in the public domain. Unfortunately Disney will probably hold onto Star Wars until the day the Earth is swallowed by the sun, so good luck.

>>18723

What if we've got the franchise in the public domain or in the hands of someone loose with copyright and have George declare his favorite/best-written fan works declared canon, assuming they respect previous continuity? Sort of like how the EU was run, just with more writers.

>>18723

>>18723

>Your proviso that it should be handled responsibly and make informed decisions is still ultimately subjective and boils down to making changes that you're cool with only.

not necessarily. I might not agree with the fanbase on all things, but I'd be willing to defer to their consensus.

looking at this another way:

>absolute monarchy

the creator rules

>oligarchy

the people in charge of the IP rule

>republic/democracy

the fandom collectively rules

there are pros and cons to each of these approaches. while absolute monarchy is cut and dry, it also counts on the creator/king not making bad decisions. oligarchy seems like it should work, but it assumes the people making money off the IP will handle it responsibly; SJW infiltrators and Disney have proven that to not be the case. all it takes is agency capture and ideological influence in the right places to bring about tyranny and gross misrule.

that brings us to republic/democracy. it may not be perfect, and it's much less efficient than the above methods, but it's the best method for determining canon. I would trust the fans and their community dynamics to make the right decisions, and keep out idiocy as well as cultural marxist infiltration. that's the thing, SJWs rely on agency capture and infiltrating high places in order to force their garbage on the rest of us. a democratic process, full of checks and balances, should prevent them from becoming gatekeepers and exploiting the franchise for propagandizing. they can try of course, but I'd expect them to become marginalized in a healthy democracy.

again, Harmy and 4K77 are good things. if we followed your idea of the creator king, they wouldn't exist because George Lucas insists on the specialized editions. Pepe is another example. under your approach, Matt Furie would have control of him, and he wouldn't be the internet superstar he is now. Furie even tried to kill off the character, but fair use of copyright exists, so the internet overruled the creator, and for the better.

>>18716

>when I say fans should be the arbiters of canon, I don't mean they have a license to transform a work according to whim. the fans should be responsible arbiters, working with the creators vision in mind, and making informed decisions on what can or cannot be altered. a democratic/communal process should ensure responsibility.

>This idea that art belongs to society and not to the artists creating it is exactly what enables cultural marxists to set up shop.

Even though it may seem like a harsh black pill for some people, it's true. Art isn't a democracy, it's a dictatorship. This is why I like the EU so much because it's in some ways Lucas' compromise to that puzzle. It's (in lucas' own words) "ours". Our star wars, our universe, our sandbox. Now all though the EU was never a democracy either, that didn't matter because it was so large. If you didn't like something, it didn't matter that much because just like in real life: some truths are more inconvenient than others. As a reader, you technically have an all-seeing eye, you get to live through other characters experiences that inhabit the universe and you have access to every authors work and insight merged into one 4D timeline. If you consume everything, then at some point, you run into something that's bound to piss you off or you learn about something you really don't care for. Or maybe that'll never happen, it depends on the reader. Naturally, fan favourite works get more exposure over others and the less popular stuff become more obscure. In a certain sense, the EU really was a democracy, because (generally speaking, not always) books/authors that didn't sell ended up having a short lifecycle in the star wars universe. You voted with your wallet. Loremasters and historians read everything because they love the idea of knowing more, while casual fans read purely what interests them or whats popular. And even with all this, there was still "the" deity looming in the background (George), who would get involved if required (or in other cases, actually commissioned stories).

>>18757

of course the creator (Lucas) should be a respected authority. I think a democratic canon could work by giving lots of extra weight to the creators views and intentions, while not making him infallible.

the fact is, if you make George Lucas the god-emperor, that means specialized OT is the only real version, and the theater cut is bullshit. that's not a black pill I'm willing to swallow.

>>18723

The situation is already in control of the fans, due to it being a product. Star Wars fans built the franchise with their money, so they can break it with their money if they aren't happy with what's sold. Feedback from those paying customers has affected decisions in the past, and it will in the future.

It's thanks to fans having such power that Disney is fucked now. The financial disappointment of TLJ and utter failure of Solo is objective proof the majority of people are pissed at what's happened. That's why we're obsessed with box office returns, why /v/ always celebrates when shit like Mass Effect: Andromeda sells about 5 copies, and so on. It's the true verdict whether people have accepted or rejected something. Lucasfilm can pull a Bioware to say everything is fine, sales don't matter, ect., but it's only a smokescreen. Like Bioware, they'll be kept alive by their parent company's money, but the company and brand will be put effectively on ice. It makes me wonder how people will respond to the physical SW locations they're building at resorts and the reaction those will get in the wake of this disaster.

>>18762

This. Leaving the "democracy" aspect of the canon to be determined by the market, while keeping a single person or group of people in charge of actually creating canon is the best way to go; giving direct canon control to fans will create inoffensive, but also profoundly bland and boring content. To use an analogy, if you ask 10 people that they'll all get free ice cream, but only if they choose the flavor unanimously, they will almost always choose either chocolate or vanilla, not because this is anyone's favorite flavor, or because these are the richest or most interesting options, but because chocolate and vanilla are very safe and inoffensive choices.

>>18772

I'm going by this quote:

>"There will only be one. And it won't be what I would call the 'rough cut', it'll be the 'final cut.' The other one will be some sort of interesting artifact that people will look at and say, 'There was an earlier draft of this.'…What ends up being important in my mind is what the DVD version is going to look like, because that's what everybody is going to remember. The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition]."

>– George Lucas, "An Expanded Universe", American Cinematographer magazine, February 1997

midichlorians are also something that should be excluded from a separatist canon imo.

>>18773

I certainly don't want content to be created by committee. as you pointed out, that leads to uncreative blandness. to clarify, the creator/artist does have absolute power during the creative process. it's after a work is published that it takes on a life of its own, and from there it can be voted in or out of canon. in other words, democracy should not apply to content creation, only to the sorting of content into canon.

>>18806

>says that in 97

>puts the original version on one dvd release

Seriously, what did he mean by this?

>>18811

a Luceno novel makes it harder to overrule. however, I still think midichlorians are an example of exposition not always being a good thing. the Force does not need biomechanics. also, why are they never mentioned in the OT? of course, the OT was made before the prequels obviously, but in terms of continuity, midichlorians were brought up in the early episodes and dropped entirely in IV-VI.

>>18815

the Battle of Endor was originally intended to be the Battle of Kashyyyk, and I do think Wookies would've worked better for a number of reasons. as much as I'd like to retcon them, they're established by an OT film, which may outweigh my objections.

>>18818

Lucas' ideas for the Midichlorians go all the way back to drafts of episodes IV and V. He decided not to go over them in the OT because they take place in a time when the Jedi are all but gone and much knowledge regarding them has been lost, destroyed, or censored turning much about them into folklore and mystery. He brought the concept back for the PT because it takes place when the Jedi are at the height of their power with well established and still ongoing beliefs and traditions.

>>18816

I'll admit, you make a strong argument. my thinking was that the fans make something successful, so why not let them judge? also, I've seen creators lose their touch (Lucas), and companies controlling the IP get infested by SJWs, who act like those parasites in nature that alter the brain of the victim to do its bidding before killing them. I figured that fan communities would be least vulnerable to this sort of thing, due to their size and communal dynamics. however, demographics do change, which does present risks as you said.

I'm not sure if I've changed my mind yet, because I tend to be stubborn. but maybe you're right, and the creator's rule over canon should be ironclad, and fair use is sufficient for other interpretations. I'll have to think about it.

>>18819

I hadn't known that, that's an adequate explanation. as much as I think the midichlorians are a thematic clash with a concept akin to polynesian mana, they would explain why certain bloodlines tend to have Force connections.

>>18819

The whole point of midichlorians was to explain why not everyone could become force-using jedi/sith. The Force is still a thing. The midis were just a way to make sure not everyone in the universe had access to its vast power, only a chosen few. My only real problem though, is his more recent explanation on the Wills via his interview. I admit, as a concept, I like them if I am to think of them as just another name for the Celestials, but what bothers me is that George wants the Wills to be microscopic beings that exist in a microverse instead of their own alternate reality. The fact that his ST wanted characters to go into this tiny world feels awfully… silly. If not for that I wouldn't mind the Wills at all, unless I'm misinterpreting, in which case I'd gladly welcome someone to correct me if I'm wrong.

>>18823

Wow, thanks. You're a good guy.

>>18824

It's more of a measure of how easy it is to access the Force without rigorous education and exercise. This directly relates to how plausible it is for somebody to be trained in a reasonable amount of time with available resources and manpower to become something like a Jedi.

>>18856

In the old canon the Jedi had the agricultural and medical corps for padawan who just couldn't hack it as a wizard monk. It's true that everyone could access or be affected by the Force, but it's only reasonable to attempt it with people for whom it wouldn't be inordinately long and hard to work with and the midichlorian count is just one factor they consider when screening potentials. It's also a matter of public safety as somebody with Qui-gon or Yoda levels of Force affinity could become a danger if not taught how to use that power and inculcated with an ethical system about its use. On their own they might not learn to throw lighting or crush skeletons but they could have precognitive abilities they never properly understood to cheat at gambling or apply a little bit of Force alacrity and speed to a successful mugging career.

>>18905

is it that surprising that someone would be reasonable in a discussion?

I'm still unsure about this. I wouldn't want fans collectively revising material, since the artist(s) should have complete control. voting existing works in and out of canon could work, but then there's the danger that the fandom could become cancerous enough to vote irresponsibly.

maybe you could have three tiers: creator canon, fanon with significant support, then everything else. that would build off the current two-tiered system of canon/legends.

>>18856

I like this view of the force and Yoda. I wish George had stuck with it.

>>18703

>the testimony of the creator

George has done enough bad shit with his franchise that many people, even those who don't think the Empire was the good side, don't take him seriously or give his ideas credit anymore, and I honestly can't blame them.