No.12038 [View All]
I am thinking about reading the entire Expanded Universe/Legends series of novels in chronological order, starting with Dawn of the Jedi: Into the Void and ending with Crucible.
In the interest of saving a bit of time I'll be skipping the YA novels but will probably include graphic novels like Dark Empire and such. Also gonna play some of the software I've got lying around that I never finished, not necessarily in chronological order (except maybe in the case of KOTOR, since I haven't played that in years and may a refresher it to read through "Revan."
Now before I start this journey…is this a good idea? I've heard a lot of the EU is bad, but how bad? Would I be able to endure such a project and keep my brain intact?
____________________________
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No.18496
>>18493
The Son was able to show Anakin an accurate vision of his future. He would have succeeded in changing the timeline if the Father hadn't erased Anakin's memory of seeing himself becoming Darth Vader. The Father fucked up enormously there, honestly. In that scene, the Father mentions that the Son "broke the law of time", which presumably means that Celestials have time travel/time alteration capabilities. I want to see the book where that law is written down, mostly so I can set it on fire and put it out by taking a piss on it.
>>18421
>Ahsoka acting slightly psychopathic in the TCW novel is something that Anakin has been shown to do as well. IIRC Ahsoka was given to Anakin as a padawan because she was a lot like him and the Jedi council hoped that him having to train her would have them work out their issues of recklessness and such.
Psychopathic isn't the right description of either of them. I haven't read the TCW novel though, but both of them are extremely loyal to those they care about, to the point of being willing to bend or break the rules in the name of protecting them. Psychopaths don't care about anyone but themselves.
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No.18497
>>18491
I think the Spartan project starting before the Human-Covenant war to combat human insurgency has been a thing since the beginning of the series. It was never portrayed to be anywhere close to morally right, but it ended up saving humanity. I could see easily people distrusting Halsey based on previous lore. You know, kidnapping children and experimenting on them to create super-soldiers. imagine the reaction of the public if they found out
On another note, has anybody read the Rebels tie-in novel? Other than having a not-Vader/Grievous villian, it's surprisingly alright for nuCanon- especially when you compare it to Rebels itself and the new movies.
>>18496
> which presumably means that Celestials have time travel/time alteration capabilities
Not necessarily- accurate predictions of the future don't really imply time-travel. However, it would make sense that the Ones frown on using their yuge force power to interfere with events.
>both of them are extremely loyal to those they care about, to the point of being willing to bend or break the rules in the name of protecting them
Yeah, psychopath probably isn't the word. Your characterization matches how they were in the novel pretty well.
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No.18498
>>18497
>Not necessarily- accurate predictions of the future don't really imply time-travel.
Maybe not, but given what the Father says, there's at least a possibility that they do. Various Force users have gotten visions of the future many times, but they're rarely as detailed as what the Son shows Anakin, and they almost never pertain to events in the very near future that would stand to alter all of galactic history if they were changed. The most accurate and detailed fortune telling outside of that is probably Kreia in the end of KotOR II, and the events she talks about are many years away. Some of them are even millennia outside of the lifetimes of any of the characters in the game, meaning that they're irrelevant for all practical purposes. The events the Son showed Anakin are all within his lifetime, and some would happen in only a couple of years. If there was ever a time in Star Wars when a seer could have changed the future, that was it.
>However, it would make sense that the Ones frown on using their yuge force power to interfere with events.
This is a fairly common sentiment in science fiction and fantasy universes that feature some kind of timeline policing organization, or really any extremely powerful groups or beings that exist outside of normal society. They often get berated for their dedication to the status quo by the main cast, as they should.
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No.18513
>>18328
>>18329
>>18327
A colleague has put this one into a better format:
https://pastebin.com/Fc9rGPcj
Also, anyone got more things to add to the chart?
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No.18514
>>18513
The Han Solo trilogy is missing, I'd put it somewhere in Master due to its age.
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No.18525
>>18473
The only problem is Star Wars itself helped to propagate cultural marxism, since it pushed the orderly, stable, authoritarian society as "bad" and this rebellious, combative, youthful movement as "good".
Much as we may not want to admit the game was rigged from the start. Star Wars was cucked from the get-go, and some people are so deeply taken by it that their minds are blown if you even hint at liking the Empire, because authoritarianism is bad, military power is heinous, and justice is fascism, and fascism is evil. That itself is much more a death of traditional values than deconstructing said Marxist-infused bullshit.
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No.18526
>>18525
that's true, and I think that's why alot of fans/artists have portrayed the Empire in a more sympathetic light, or rebooted the concept with imperial remnant/Thrawn/etc.
with that said, Star Wars is a modern epic. it's about the hero's journey, good vs evil, and redemption, which is enough to make up for the cucked aspects.
if we get a real sequel trilogy, I'd like to see it portray the New Republic in a negative way, with Thrawn/imperial remnant having redeeming qualities.
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No.18531
>>18525
that was babbie george lucas, what about the old george lucas?
the prequels, the clone wars and all the EU in between helped grow a new wave of young, fascist sheevposters who grew up with republic commando, army building clonetrooper action figures, mandalorians, anakin skywalker coloring books, battlefront 2 and ironic hitler memes. And when they weren't watching star wars, they were busy playing Halo and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and those Big Boss MGS games. Talk about having your shit rigged from the very start :^)
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No.18548
>>18531
>who grew up with republic commando, army building clonetrooper action figures, mandalorians, anakin skywalker coloring books, battlefront 2 and ironic hitler memes
dad?
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No.18573
>>18525
Anybody who unironically approves of fascism and and thinks the Empire's authoritarian exercise of power is just in-universe or led to stability and simultaneously claims to be a Star Wars fan is objectively retarded and desperately trying to make a card-carrying Democrat's space opera fit their world view. Just because SJWs don't understand the Galaxy doesn't mean the aut-right or other reactionaries have a clue either, and it boggles the mind how they can delude themselves into believing so.
>>18526
>Star Wars is a modern epic. it's about the hero's journey, good vs evil, and redemption
And those are the only "traditional values" it needs. Now or ever. Star Wars is timeless because it is the universal myth transcending yet fed by history, culture, and language.
Even all of the EU content which gave the Empire a fair shake at having its position rationalized was never allowed to portray their side of the conflict a morally correct. At most it fleshed out the setting to permit Rebels to go too far and be held accountable while Imperials could have good intentions but never fix something corrupted at its core. It's okay to still enjoy getting into that head space of somebody who would believe in the Empire or the Sith and from an in-universe point of view support what Word of God declares the forces of Evil, but it's next level naive to think this is something that just started happening in 2014.
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No.18603
>>18573
but you can easily play as a morally decent sith or imperial in swtor
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No.18604
>>18573
>>sith says empire isn't moral
At least I'm human, Sith spit.
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No.18605
>>18573
>Anybody who unironically approves of fascism
Hey buddy, stopped reading there.
I think you got the wrong door. The Halfcuck'd club is four blocks down.
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No.18607
>>18573
Assuming you're not just shitposting and/or trying to cast some bait, I don't think that we should all limit ourselves to one man's worldview, especially when said man that, despite all his qualities and merits, has had a history of objective gross mishandling of his own license and lack of understanding on what he truly wants it to be. It's called "Death of the author" where the author's intent and the text therein are not intwined and where interpretation of the reader takes hold. So therefore, George Lucas may say "The Empire is bad", but a reader may say "Well, I disagree", and that's perfectly fine.
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No.18608
>>18607
Death of the author is retarded Marxist propaganda. As is, I might add- claiming 40 years later that Gandalf or Dumbledore were in a gay marriage to spite ebil gooberglackers.
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No.18613
>>18607
>has had a history of objective gross mishandling of his own license and lack of understanding on what he truly wants it to be
I know this isn't the focus of what you two were discussing, but "gross mishandling"? How? I can't think of a single thing he has done wrong except getting old and selling to disney or the ocassionally bumpy road that was TCW (a lot of which was Filoni anyway). I don't care how many times he has changed his mind; if there's one guy who objectively knows what to do with the license, it's him. You hear some people say Lucas was more of a business man than an artist, because of his smart moves with the licensing & merch rights, but they don't realize that his business acumen was merely a side effect of his pedantic desire to make sure star wars was represented correctly, the way he wanted it–that his idea (his art) was not being dragged down by low quality trash riding on the coattails of the IP. (this is why he got mad at stuff like Jaxxon) The EU we got, the focus on freshness and continuity and all that, was because of his encourgagment really early on. For example, he gave Zahn WEG material for his thrawn books and said "here you should use these". He introduced Terry Brooks to the history of the Sith and Darth Bane as backstory so that the guy could better understand what he was doing when writing the TPM novelization. He commisioned Genndy to create the beloved 2003 Clone Wars micro series because he saw potential, which in turn spawned TCW for a new generation of kids. He always had the right idea and generally speaking, hired the right people for the right tasks. If anything, the core "problem" or "feature" of Star Wars is that we have yet to see a third party that's able to handle the IP properly. It's not a (((pure coincidence))) that things have gone to shit as soon as Lucas gave it away. Even licensing isn't some independent magic money printing machine, these things needs context and a guiding hand. At this rate, I think everything that has transpired will eventually transform into a global reality check for star wars fanboys and the disney handlers. Maybe Star Wars isn't as easy to milk as Disney would like to think and maybe Lucas will eventually get the respect he deserves. I wouldn't be surprised if the disaster that is nu-star wars, somehow ends up acting as a catalyst in dialing down the sjw garbage in modern entertainment in the near future. The ideological indoctrination you see in these films now could easily backfire and have a reverse effect on the masses. In fact, it's happening right now as we quite well know.
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No.18624
>>18573
>Anybody who unironically approves of fascism
what's so bad about fascism? it's just another way of organizing society.
the Empire has plenty of positive qualities. IMO its main flaw is the Sith leadership, and there's no reason there couldn't be another iteration of the Empire that kept the Sith out of power (or at least the top ranks).
>>18613
>"gross mishandling"? How?
ewoks, the prequels, need I say more?
there's no reason you can't disagree with the creator. and ultimately, canon should be decided by the fans.
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No.18626
>>18624
>ewoks, the prequels
some of his best work
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No.18627
>>18626
I'm sure you're being completely sincere. but there's an even better example: the specialized editions. while some added sfx were cool, other changes were for the worse. Lucas wants the specialized editions to be the 'final version' and for the original theatrical cut to fade away, something the fans are working hard to prevent. that's the best example of Lucas shitting things up and the fans knowing what's best.
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No.18628
>>18627
On that note, which of the original films got changed the least? It seems like A New Hope got the majority of changes, while the other ones are practically untouched in comparison.
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No.18630
>>18628
I've only watched specialized IV, so I can't comment on the others. from what I've heard, V and VI were still vandalized, but not to the same extent.
in particular, specialized IV inserts a scene in which Han meets with Jabba the Hutt outside the cantina. aside from it being a dumb addition on many levels, it also screws up the pacing, yet Lucas insisted on it.
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No.18631
>>18628
ESB probably, the only thing that comes to mind is the additional shot of the Wampa, while ROTJ had that song and dance in Jabba's palace.
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No.18634
>>18631
Sheev's hologram was changed to Ian McDiarmid too.
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No.18637
>>18608
There's a difference between postmodernist and modernist deconstruction, though. In this case death of the author is the side of supporting the faction that the author wrote as evil that many would consider good. While you're mostly correct that postmodernist deconstruction/Death of the Author is a cultural marxist weapon, remember that it's not exclusive, just like fascism embraces elements of socialism, but is the total antithesis to communism, which also calls for socialism.
In this case it's arguing that the qualities that the ignorant perceive as "bad" that make the Empire "bad" aren't bad.
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No.18671
>>18637
Well, that;s not death of the author. It's just that official sources have provided enough information for people to make the argument that the bad guys aren't so bad after all. Completely different than Twitter lefties claiming LOTR is an endorsement of communism.
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No.18703
>>18603
But in every instance you're fighting an impossible uphill battle. An Imperial character, Sith or otherwise, which tries to lean on the light side of Star Wars' objective moral scale is at best a decent person doing the best he can in a bad situation and is never in the position to permanently alter the system for the better. They cannot because it would undermine the Empire's designated role as the antagonistic faction. I say this as somebody who's played SWtOR with all light Imperials myself.
>>18604
<At least I'm a simian, naked ape
>>18605
Do kindly grow up.
>>18607
I'm neither baiting nor shitposting. As much as Disney has abused the concept, canon matters. George Lucas is the effective deity of the Star Wars Galaxy and his pronouncement on the themes and moods of the setting is absolute unless you're prepared to defer to Cuckquean Kennedy and her soy farmers. For the reader to say "I disagree" is perfectly fine, yes, but unlike an opinion on an open question it is also demonstrably, provably false.
>>18613
Good God, so much this. I thought we were relatively unpozzed by Reddit Letter Memia hatred for Lucas and his prequels.
>>18624
>What's so bad about Marxism? It's just another way of organizing humanity.
>ultimately canon should be decided by the fans
You are no better than the cultural Marxist revisionists you complain about. You simply would prefer a different politisperg goal. No, artistic intent and meaning are not democratic or subject to popular revision.
>>18637
The author is not dead and, says that these "many" are flatly wrong, and expressed so on the highest tier of his canon system.
>just like fascism embraces elements of socialism, but is the total antithesis to communism, which also calls for socialism
Fascism is just socialism with "but not a pure ethnic state" instead of "but not real communism" and a handful fewer Jews.
>In this case it's arguing that the qualities that the ignorant perceive as "bad" that make the Empire "bad" aren't bad.
Which is like arguing that black is white or up is down.
>>18671
This 100%. There's a distinct difference between having a plausible in-universe perspective humanizing and rationalizing what a designated force of evil does or justifying what could martial regular people to its service. That's quite different from trying to overrule the crystal clear ruling on the subject obvious in not just the narrative itself but the testimony of the creator.
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No.18716
>>18703
>>What's so bad about Marxism? It's just another way of organizing humanity.
for the record, I disagree with totalitarianism, both right and left wing. however, I would argue that communism has a worse track record historically, and fascism has shown itself to be more viable, although still a worse form of govt than the republic. I think timocracy would be a better alternative to a fascist dictator.
>>ultimately canon should be decided by the fans
>You are no better than the cultural Marxist revisionists you complain about. You simply would prefer a different politisperg goal. No, artistic intent and meaning are not democratic or subject to popular revision.
not true. cultural marxists subvert every creative work without regard to the original vision. they take an idea, and use it solely as a vehicle for their ideology. they also tend to infiltrate institutions and override the popular will; which is another reason to democratize canon.
when I say fans should be the arbiters of canon, I don't mean they have a license to transform a work according to whim. the fans should be responsible arbiters, working with the creators vision in mind, and making informed decisions on what can or cannot be altered. a democratic/communal process should ensure responsibility.
the Empire is the antagonist of the OT, there is no denying that as canon. however, the idea that they are pure evil, or that their form of society has no redeeming qualities, is the sort of thing the fans can dismiss, even if Lucas himself maintains that position. we have the liberty to reinterpret the merits of the Empire, we do not have the license to reframe the central conflict of the OT.
another good example is specialized vs despecialized. George Lucas wants specialized to be the final version, and for the original cut to disappear and be forgotten. fans have been working hard to ensure that does not happen, in spite of George Lucas' wishes. would you say that the fan restorations (Harmy, 4K77) are wrong, and we should embrace the inferior specialized editions, simply because of what the "Word of God" says?
tl;dr: canon should be decided by fan communities who treat the source material responsibly. this would be the best possible check and balance against creators being dumb and cultural marxist infiltration.
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No.18723
>>18716
Perhaps you should consider that if creator has made something "dumb" or politically offensive that the mature position would be to realize it's simply not for you and go find something that does resonate with your values?
I really don't see how this philosophy is any different from feminists making Cthulu Mythos penny dreadfuls for self-publishing with female and black protagonists just because they can't handle the fact that Lovecraft hated niggers. Your proviso that it should be handled responsibly and make informed decisions is still ultimately subjective and boils down to making changes that you're cool with only. This idea that art belongs to society and not to the artists creating it is exactly what enables cultural marxists to set up shop. The Lucas-hating fans who bitched about the special editions killing their childhoods and the prequels ruining Star Wars are directly responsible for the reign of the Mouse we're suffering through today.
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No.18726
>>18716
That seems like a sensible way to run it, if you've put the rights in the public domain. Unfortunately Disney will probably hold onto Star Wars until the day the Earth is swallowed by the sun, so good luck.
>>18723
What if we've got the franchise in the public domain or in the hands of someone loose with copyright and have George declare his favorite/best-written fan works declared canon, assuming they respect previous continuity? Sort of like how the EU was run, just with more writers.
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No.18751
>>18723
>>18723
>Your proviso that it should be handled responsibly and make informed decisions is still ultimately subjective and boils down to making changes that you're cool with only.
not necessarily. I might not agree with the fanbase on all things, but I'd be willing to defer to their consensus.
looking at this another way:
>absolute monarchy
the creator rules
>oligarchy
the people in charge of the IP rule
>republic/democracy
the fandom collectively rules
there are pros and cons to each of these approaches. while absolute monarchy is cut and dry, it also counts on the creator/king not making bad decisions. oligarchy seems like it should work, but it assumes the people making money off the IP will handle it responsibly; SJW infiltrators and Disney have proven that to not be the case. all it takes is agency capture and ideological influence in the right places to bring about tyranny and gross misrule.
that brings us to republic/democracy. it may not be perfect, and it's much less efficient than the above methods, but it's the best method for determining canon. I would trust the fans and their community dynamics to make the right decisions, and keep out idiocy as well as cultural marxist infiltration. that's the thing, SJWs rely on agency capture and infiltrating high places in order to force their garbage on the rest of us. a democratic process, full of checks and balances, should prevent them from becoming gatekeepers and exploiting the franchise for propagandizing. they can try of course, but I'd expect them to become marginalized in a healthy democracy.
again, Harmy and 4K77 are good things. if we followed your idea of the creator king, they wouldn't exist because George Lucas insists on the specialized editions. Pepe is another example. under your approach, Matt Furie would have control of him, and he wouldn't be the internet superstar he is now. Furie even tried to kill off the character, but fair use of copyright exists, so the internet overruled the creator, and for the better.
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No.18757
>>18716
>when I say fans should be the arbiters of canon, I don't mean they have a license to transform a work according to whim. the fans should be responsible arbiters, working with the creators vision in mind, and making informed decisions on what can or cannot be altered. a democratic/communal process should ensure responsibility.
>This idea that art belongs to society and not to the artists creating it is exactly what enables cultural marxists to set up shop.
Even though it may seem like a harsh black pill for some people, it's true. Art isn't a democracy, it's a dictatorship. This is why I like the EU so much because it's in some ways Lucas' compromise to that puzzle. It's (in lucas' own words) "ours". Our star wars, our universe, our sandbox. Now all though the EU was never a democracy either, that didn't matter because it was so large. If you didn't like something, it didn't matter that much because just like in real life: some truths are more inconvenient than others. As a reader, you technically have an all-seeing eye, you get to live through other characters experiences that inhabit the universe and you have access to every authors work and insight merged into one 4D timeline. If you consume everything, then at some point, you run into something that's bound to piss you off or you learn about something you really don't care for. Or maybe that'll never happen, it depends on the reader. Naturally, fan favourite works get more exposure over others and the less popular stuff become more obscure. In a certain sense, the EU really was a democracy, because (generally speaking, not always) books/authors that didn't sell ended up having a short lifecycle in the star wars universe. You voted with your wallet. Loremasters and historians read everything because they love the idea of knowing more, while casual fans read purely what interests them or whats popular. And even with all this, there was still "the" deity looming in the background (George), who would get involved if required (or in other cases, actually commissioned stories).
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No.18760
>>18757
of course the creator (Lucas) should be a respected authority. I think a democratic canon could work by giving lots of extra weight to the creators views and intentions, while not making him infallible.
the fact is, if you make George Lucas the god-emperor, that means specialized OT is the only real version, and the theater cut is bullshit. that's not a black pill I'm willing to swallow.
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No.18761
>>18723
>using the backwards version
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No.18762
>>18723
The situation is already in control of the fans, due to it being a product. Star Wars fans built the franchise with their money, so they can break it with their money if they aren't happy with what's sold. Feedback from those paying customers has affected decisions in the past, and it will in the future.
It's thanks to fans having such power that Disney is fucked now. The financial disappointment of TLJ and utter failure of Solo is objective proof the majority of people are pissed at what's happened. That's why we're obsessed with box office returns, why /v/ always celebrates when shit like Mass Effect: Andromeda sells about 5 copies, and so on. It's the true verdict whether people have accepted or rejected something. Lucasfilm can pull a Bioware to say everything is fine, sales don't matter, ect., but it's only a smokescreen. Like Bioware, they'll be kept alive by their parent company's money, but the company and brand will be put effectively on ice. It makes me wonder how people will respond to the physical SW locations they're building at resorts and the reaction those will get in the wake of this disaster.
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No.18772
>>18760
I mean with the case of the special ed OT, if you don't like it, I don't see why it couldn't be comparable to something like a movie vs a novelization. Added detail vs less detail, some minor details changed or glossed over. Both are canon but have some formal differences. E.g the AOTC novelization has a lot of amazing extra scenes compared to the movie. Or for example, TCW has many fans, but does that mean all of these people buy into the idea that Jango isn't a mandalorian just because some untrustworthy character says so? No, of course not. Personally, when it comes to ROTJ, I prefer the music in the original Jabbas Palace scene from 1983, but on the otherhand I do welcome the extended 2011 blu-ray ending with open arms. I don't think shit like that is worth taking so seriously; it can all be canon because the changes don't really break anything in-universe. What version of the film you watch to me is more of a real life thing that comes down to preference and has nothing to do with canon. At the end of the day it's still the same film. Why does Lucas insist on having the special ed as the "only true version"? Doesn't really matter at this point. Some of the changes make sense, some don't. In 2018, does it really matter anymore? Anyone that pretends the OT theatrical cut is "bullshit" is a dishonest falseflagging nu-canon shill. Not even George is that invested.
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No.18773
>>18762
This. Leaving the "democracy" aspect of the canon to be determined by the market, while keeping a single person or group of people in charge of actually creating canon is the best way to go; giving direct canon control to fans will create inoffensive, but also profoundly bland and boring content. To use an analogy, if you ask 10 people that they'll all get free ice cream, but only if they choose the flavor unanimously, they will almost always choose either chocolate or vanilla, not because this is anyone's favorite flavor, or because these are the richest or most interesting options, but because chocolate and vanilla are very safe and inoffensive choices.
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No.18806
>>18772
I'm going by this quote:
>"There will only be one. And it won't be what I would call the 'rough cut', it'll be the 'final cut.' The other one will be some sort of interesting artifact that people will look at and say, 'There was an earlier draft of this.'…What ends up being important in my mind is what the DVD version is going to look like, because that's what everybody is going to remember. The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won't last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition]."
>– George Lucas, "An Expanded Universe", American Cinematographer magazine, February 1997
midichlorians are also something that should be excluded from a separatist canon imo.
>>18773
I certainly don't want content to be created by committee. as you pointed out, that leads to uncreative blandness. to clarify, the creator/artist does have absolute power during the creative process. it's after a work is published that it takes on a life of its own, and from there it can be voted in or out of canon. in other words, democracy should not apply to content creation, only to the sorting of content into canon.
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No.18809
>>18806
>says that in 97
>puts the original version on one dvd release
Seriously, what did he mean by this?
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No.18811
>>18806
>midichlorians are also something that should be excluded
*blocks your path*
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No.18815
>>18806
If your next words are to exclude the Ewoks, then fuck you.
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No.18816
>>18751
It's only right for the creator's rule to be absolute and not something up for appeal. The fandom collectively ruling gives them undue and unearned authority on something they didn't make. It's Redditor entitlement cancer that should not be respected and a desperate attempt to justify wanting control over something that isn't yours.
>I would trust the fans and their community dynamics to make the right decisions, and keep out idiocy as well as cultural marxist infiltration
I've seen enough of the Star Wars fan community not to trust them with either thing. Stuff that the fans insisted before needed to be different was often justified in time by the canon tier system or made sense in the big picture of the lore instead of whatever little microcosm they were complaining about.
>they can try of course, but I'd expect them to become marginalized in a healthy democracy.
Demographics change over time. It's only a waiting game until a sufficiently revision friendly crop of younger fans decide that something was problematic and try to amend something artistic to make it compatible for modern tastes. This is rightfully regarded by people who give as hit about artistic integrity as vandalism with a smile not matter how it makes the fans feel inside.
>if we followed your idea of the creator king, they wouldn't exist because George Lucas insists on the specialized editions
Wrong. They would exist but there would be no doubt that Lucas' version is still the authoritative one. It's like making a fan film: an interesting look into something plausibly a part of the universe but not existing in the true chronology of events.
>Pepe is another example. under your approach, Matt Furie would have control of him, and he wouldn't be the internet superstar he is now.
Matt Furie does have control of Pepe. The Pepe memes you see on the internet are no more related to his Boys Club comics than all of those truck decals of Calvin pissing on various corporate logos are related to Bill Waterson's Calvin and Hobbes comics.
>Furie even tried to kill off the character, but fair use of copyright exists, so the internet overruled the creator, and for the better.
No, the internet did not overrule him. It created something effectively new and beyond Furie's reach owing to fair use laws. For a less controversial example, there are fan-created webcomics that have tried to continue cancelled or ended plot arcs to official comics but they're not to be confused with something spawned by the original creator. Pretending otherwise isn't even belief: It's wanting to believe.
>>18757
Lucas was for the most part an absentee landlord or blind watchmaker god, but he can and did slap down popular EU conventions when they went against his personal vision for what Star Wars ought to be. The whole "Darksaber" thing in The Clone Wars was a result of him not giving a fuck about all of the lightsaber resistant metal articles that Filoni could find for him on Wookiepedia.
>>18762
Depends on whether or not the creator is willing to stand by his principles at the risk of losing revenue, and that should be his unmitigated right to choose. Ideally, Disney being a profit-motivated company rather than having a personal vision like Lucas should make Star Wars are more fan-driven franchise without infringing on the creator's artistic rights (since he sold the IP and de facto washed his hands of it), but the parasitic infestation of ideologues is inhibiting what you're predicting.
How many times has Marvel now promised to stop pandering to diversity mongers and write what comic fans want to read only to find they can't change shit because the SJWs who have taken over the creative side of comics threaten rebellion?
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No.18818
>>18811
a Luceno novel makes it harder to overrule. however, I still think midichlorians are an example of exposition not always being a good thing. the Force does not need biomechanics. also, why are they never mentioned in the OT? of course, the OT was made before the prequels obviously, but in terms of continuity, midichlorians were brought up in the early episodes and dropped entirely in IV-VI.
>>18815
the Battle of Endor was originally intended to be the Battle of Kashyyyk, and I do think Wookies would've worked better for a number of reasons. as much as I'd like to retcon them, they're established by an OT film, which may outweigh my objections.
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No.18819
>>18818
Lucas' ideas for the Midichlorians go all the way back to drafts of episodes IV and V. He decided not to go over them in the OT because they take place in a time when the Jedi are all but gone and much knowledge regarding them has been lost, destroyed, or censored turning much about them into folklore and mystery. He brought the concept back for the PT because it takes place when the Jedi are at the height of their power with well established and still ongoing beliefs and traditions.
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No.18823
>>18816
I'll admit, you make a strong argument. my thinking was that the fans make something successful, so why not let them judge? also, I've seen creators lose their touch (Lucas), and companies controlling the IP get infested by SJWs, who act like those parasites in nature that alter the brain of the victim to do its bidding before killing them. I figured that fan communities would be least vulnerable to this sort of thing, due to their size and communal dynamics. however, demographics do change, which does present risks as you said.
I'm not sure if I've changed my mind yet, because I tend to be stubborn. but maybe you're right, and the creator's rule over canon should be ironclad, and fair use is sufficient for other interpretations. I'll have to think about it.
>>18819
I hadn't known that, that's an adequate explanation. as much as I think the midichlorians are a thematic clash with a concept akin to polynesian mana, they would explain why certain bloodlines tend to have Force connections.
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No.18824
>>18819
The whole point of midichlorians was to explain why not everyone could become force-using jedi/sith. The Force is still a thing. The midis were just a way to make sure not everyone in the universe had access to its vast power, only a chosen few. My only real problem though, is his more recent explanation on the Wills via his interview. I admit, as a concept, I like them if I am to think of them as just another name for the Celestials, but what bothers me is that George wants the Wills to be microscopic beings that exist in a microverse instead of their own alternate reality. The fact that his ST wanted characters to go into this tiny world feels awfully… silly. If not for that I wouldn't mind the Wills at all, unless I'm misinterpreting, in which case I'd gladly welcome someone to correct me if I'm wrong.
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No.18856
>>18824
>The midis were just a way to make sure not everyone in the universe had access to its vast power, only a chosen few.
i thought we all agreed the midichlorians were the power level of star wars, a way for the jedi to check one's natural attunement to the force, and as such they selected individuals who met the minimum requirements. remember, lucas once stated that anyone could become a jedi if they took the time and training, but the jedi were dedicated to it.
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No.18905
>>18823
Wow, thanks. You're a good guy.
>>18824
It's more of a measure of how easy it is to access the Force without rigorous education and exercise. This directly relates to how plausible it is for somebody to be trained in a reasonable amount of time with available resources and manpower to become something like a Jedi.
>>18856
In the old canon the Jedi had the agricultural and medical corps for padawan who just couldn't hack it as a wizard monk. It's true that everyone could access or be affected by the Force, but it's only reasonable to attempt it with people for whom it wouldn't be inordinately long and hard to work with and the midichlorian count is just one factor they consider when screening potentials. It's also a matter of public safety as somebody with Qui-gon or Yoda levels of Force affinity could become a danger if not taught how to use that power and inculcated with an ethical system about its use. On their own they might not learn to throw lighting or crush skeletons but they could have precognitive abilities they never properly understood to cheat at gambling or apply a little bit of Force alacrity and speed to a successful mugging career.
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No.18908
>>18905
is it that surprising that someone would be reasonable in a discussion?
I'm still unsure about this. I wouldn't want fans collectively revising material, since the artist(s) should have complete control. voting existing works in and out of canon could work, but then there's the danger that the fandom could become cancerous enough to vote irresponsibly.
maybe you could have three tiers: creator canon, fanon with significant support, then everything else. that would build off the current two-tiered system of canon/legends.
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No.18928
>>18856
I like this view of the force and Yoda. I wish George had stuck with it.
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No.19018
>>18703
>the testimony of the creator
George has done enough bad shit with his franchise that many people, even those who don't think the Empire was the good side, don't take him seriously or give his ideas credit anymore, and I honestly can't blame them.
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