009e97 No.7642 [View All]
After looking up about this ship class and the history of it, was it actually ever good? For a Frontline Heavy Cruiser the Federation seemed to build hardly any of them considering how many of it's replacement Excelsior Classes they built. Was it a luxury instead of being a serious ship? It always seemed that the Miranda Class was a far cheaper option that could do it's job nearly as well.
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55cd68 No.8707
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cb61e9 No.8708
>>7751
or they dont have concept of big ships not made for war. They are klingons after all
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5fa497 No.8724
What was the flagship of the Federation fleet during TOS?
It was the Enterprise-D in TNG wasn't it? But I though flagships carried an admiral instead of a captain.
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87c8a5 No.8739
>>8724
star trek has no military advisers. at best, people who served in the military in the past have worked on the show.
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769634 No.8740
>>8724
>What was the flagship of the Federation fleet during TOS?
Not sure, I know it wasn't the Enterprise though. I think it might have been the Constitution or the USS Federation.
>But I though flagships carried an admiral instead of a captain.
For all purposes Picard may as well have been an Admiral and Riker a Captain.
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519f56 No.10780
>>8724
They don't have flagships
They have fagships
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65f879 No.11035
>>8675
So basically the Constitution and Constellation classes are the Tiger 1 and 2 with the Excelsior being a Panzer IV?
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4dd0f7 No.11047
>>8693
Here now it's orange, blue and dark enough.
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51f9e1 No.11583
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1cc82d No.12778
>>7667
The Connies were also meant to be old, even by the time of TOS.
>>7748
Supposedly it could take a pounding from a dozen Romulan Birds of Gay.
>>11035
Excelsior was more a Panther or E-75 to be exact.
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b82e1f No.12806
>>7642
Depending on who you ask, and what sources you trust, there were between 30 and over 100 of these spaceframes. This in addition to half to one and a half times as many Mirandas, and probably as many or twice as many Hermes/Saladins, and a quarter as many Federation-class Dreadnaughts. This by 2270. That gives a fleet strength of 85 first rate vessels at the low end, to as many as 225 or more. And here, I'm counting only the number of vessels produced, not taking into account the ones that got destroyed or lost (and subsequently replaced).
Also remember that Mirandas, if they really were first commissioned in the 2250s, were equal in armament to a Constitution (6 phaser banks, 2 torpedo tubes). They could only be called "light cruisers" by comparison to them in that they had lower endurance and were less well suited to long range, long term, long cruise, multi-spectrum missions. Post-refit, and you start to see a divergence in them. "Equipment Mods" were created for the Mirandas to give them much higher single mission capability (Saratoga had sensor pods, Reliant had Torpedo launchers, etc.) with some relegated to much lighter duty (Bozeman-type/Soyuz class).
So, think of it like this: Constitutions could do multiple tasks very well. Mirandas could do one or two major types of task very well, depending on their sub-type/refit. Hermes/Saladins were just patrol, deterrence, and scouting/policing vessels. Federations were designed for the biggest fights and most important operations (given that, if the vessel really is that much bigger than a Constitution, the supply cost to operate would be higher).
If Star Trek actually made any damn sense, the Federations would have been treated like we treat CVBGs today, in that they'd be the centerpiece to a task force, like Carriers are, and forward deployed, but carefully kept in the rear of the action until needed. Constitutions would take the place of our current Ticonderoga-class CG's, and the Mirandas are Arleigh Burkes, while Saladins/Hermes' are closer to the old Perry-class. With this in mind, know that each one of these ship classes is capable of independent operation to some degree (though, by doctrine, the Ticos are usually kept close to the carriers).
To fully answer your question: Yes, they are damn good. They showed they were just as capable of accepting service life extension upgrades as Mirandas were (though the Mirandas had to specialize), they stayed in service as long as they did (over 120 years), and while they were progressively down-rated (front-line Heavy Cruiser in TOS, secondary Heavy Cruiser by The Lost Era, Light Cruiser by TNG), they held their own well enough that new refit-compliant Constitutions were apparently being made as late as the second revision of the Excelsiors (2300, meaning at least 60 years after they were first commissioned). By extension, the Mirandas were just as good, though had to be specialized mainly due to lack of space.
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fbdfb1 No.16447
Connies were crewed by Penal Battalions.
The only way they could man a ship with such a high mortality rate.
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545df9 No.16870
Looks like a flashlight with the engines and saucer part glued on to it.
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eb1ef5 No.16878
>>11035
>>12778
Found this a while back, thought it would be amusing, and partially applicable.
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02cf78 No.16879
>>16878
I would have liked to switch the Sovereign and Galaxy because I prefer the latter's aesthetics, but unfortunately three arboreta and a dozen classrooms proves the diagram right.
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20132e No.16880
>>16878
The person who made this knows nothing about planes or the starships.
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a17615 No.16899
>>16878
>Miranda
>Backbone of force during it's era
Wrong. It was a good effective design that saw widespread use. I would not call it the backbone, more effective meatshield/ cannon fodder
>Constitution
>Retired before it's time
It was old even during the TOS. It was needing a replacement. It got replaced by the Constellation class which was more capable.
>Excelsior
>Gamechanger
No it wasn't, it was just the natural evolution and a new Heavy Cruiser regardless of the great experiment. Only thing that stopped it being deployed early was the autism of the Starfleet corps of engineers.
>Centaur
Just what?
>Ambassador
I will give it that one but not that craft analogy. The Harrier is used more cause it's all you've got not what you want.
>Defiant
>Cheap
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>Saber
Makes sense
>Akira
It is a new frontline heavy cruiser, more of a high endurance slugger
>Steamrunner
>Support
No, it's frontline frigate.
>Galaxy
>Anything related to combat
While it does make sense slightly it is more of a yacht
>Sovereign
>Top of the line
Compared to what?
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bc0e70 No.16943
>>16879
Doesn't the Sovereign also have families aboard?
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02cf78 No.16945
>>16943
We certainly didn't see any kiddies in the TNG movies. A few married couples maybe.
***
Yeah, according to Memory Alpha there were no families except for a few spouses of the crewmembers.
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7f79eb No.18172
>>16943
Only Rikers loveshack
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a499be No.18898
>>7642
So thoughts on STD's Constitution?
>>18172
Is it full of lolis?
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565c72 No.19621
Prostitution Class was a good garbage scow.
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4b776e No.19635
>>16878
Feels like that list is ignoring things like how the how the f18 only exists because they couldn't manage to build a viable navel variant of the f16 or how the f22 was extremely effective but largely under used due to costs only to be replaced by a cluster fuck that was 5 times as expensive.
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97b1bc No.19637
>>19635
F-18 was actually better than the F-16 and by all rights the F-16 shouldn't exist, but then again the whole US Aviation industry is a clusterfuck (((too big to fail))) which translates as kike companies stay afloat while good ones die off
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39e6d1 No.19680
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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6fa08d No.23733
>>19637
The F-16 predates the F/A-18 by a good while. The light fighter competition was YF-16 vs. YF-17, which the YF-16 won to be developed into the F-16. The YF-17 impressed enough people that they didn't let the design die, they kept moving forward and making changes and improvements and developed it into the F-18.
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d509f9 No.23736
>>7748
for much of starfleet's history none of their ships were dedicated warships, as the whole concept of a combat vessel runs against the core values of starfleet; exploration, diplomacy, scientific discovery. that said, every single starfleet vessel was capable of fighting, but only as a secondary consideration as a matter of necessity. it wasn't until the defiant class that you had a ship that could only do combat roles.
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0f1823 No.23754
>>23733
>Replies to a 3month old post
>Still misreads it
Anon he said F-18 not F/A-18?
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4fe3ea No.23861
>>19635
>>19637
F-18 and F-16 both had higher performing, cheaper, more efficient competitors. F-17 Cobra and the F-20 Tigershark.
The military chose the more expensive, less capable option every single time.
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c4d322 No.23970
>>23861
good job, you understand the military industrial complex and why it's shit.
can we get back to discussing fictional spaceships now?
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070551 No.23972
The point is that Star fleet's equivalency of a military industrial complex is just as retarded, as was the fanboy writers who wanted to up sell the most iconic ship in the franchise. And the Connie was actually kind of shit.
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b6d89d No.23993
>>23972
>the Connie was actually kind of shit.
By what measure? We never had any other Federation vessels to compare it to directly.
In TOS We never even see another Starfleet mainline vessel, save for other Constitutions.. In the movies We only have three other Starfleet ships to compare to:
The Miranda class USS Reliant, which We see is armed as well as, if not better than The Constitution class USS Enterprise, but having only a single hull it's fair to assume Miranda's don't have the space for nearly as much exploratory and science equipment, cargo, crew. Hell, it may not even have as big/powerful of a warp core, leaving it as a shorter range/duration vessel. So a miranda, while possibly better at combat, is probably less capable at anything else.
The Oberth class USS Grissom, which is a little pup of a ship, may be useful for specific rolls, but nothing to compare to a Connie.
The Excelsior; A cutting-edge, fresh out of the box heavy cruiser that was built to test trans-warp theory. When that failed, Starfleet figured "fuck it, We already went through all the work", and built more to replace the much, much older Constitution class… Obviously, the brand new heavy cruiser should be a better ship.
Out of the only three fed ships to compare to, one is an excellent dedicated fighter, one is a economical utility vessel, and one is a forty years young replacement. The Constitution class looks to be objectively not shit.
If You're comparing to other faction's vessels, again, all we have to go on is the Enterprise's exploits, and it pulled through just fine.
If You're going off of the amount of destroyed connies depicted in TOS, that's because the show wasn't about to blow money of building a entirely new model for every fed ship depicted, and in-universe, connies were after all deep exploratory ships; They were operated on their own, far away from any friendly units, in strange unknown conditions. Shit's bound to get fucked.
If You're going to make the "how come We don't see any more connies?" argument, that's because in the TNG era, the shows handlers decided that Their viewers were literally to stupid to understand that there could be connies other than Kirk's, so They decided to reuse every studio model They had except the constitution class, leaving it as an icon of Kirk.
TL;DR: The Constitution class is a cute! CUTE! just fine.
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f276a6 No.23996
>>23993
We're just going off of what's shown on-screen for canon, obviously, but you can infer quite a bit from hull numbers. For instance, Oberth-class is a much older design than what is it appears - probably pre-dating Constitution-class by a generation and originally exhibiting an aesthetic theme half-way between Daedalus-class and Constitution-class… perhaps with a smooth, "saucer" primary hull but with ribbed nacelles and secondary hull. The USS Grissom shown in ST3 is likely then a 3rd or 4th refit, likely fresh from the last one when we first see it. Then again, they goof with registry numbers a lot. A Miranda bearing NCC-1864 showed up in a DS9 episode, so…
Either way, "better" is a dubious metric and many anons would consider a Connie shit because maybe they just want to tool around in a cute ship or quest for blood on their knife or shit on their dick. The Enterprise was never particularly good for either of those things. Miranda with the peacekeeping roll-bar will absolutely shrek a Connie. The only reason street-shitter Khan got eternally housebroken in the Mutara nebula was because he was an arrogant punjabi who couldn't into z-axis and didn't really know how Starfleet vessels worked. At any rate, he could have finished Enterprise with those phaser canons alone had he not exhibited emotional thinking (muh revenge).
By the Constitution-class refit days, it was a solid vessel with most of it's bugs worked-out, but it really was a deep-space exploratory vessel that was unoptomized as fuck but did a lot of things and was important. Hothead captains wouldn't want it. They'd want the mythical "micro-enterprise" style ship (New Orleans-class) or something with the Reliant or Constellation form-factor… maybe even a buffed Oberth in the case of some fanfic load-outs. The faggots, retards, autismals, and old captains waiting on retirement get the newest designs and they're only "better" on paper. It takes a decade or two for the first major refit to happen and that's when the actual major problems get fixed and those ships get pressed into real service. That's also likely when they replace the crash-test-dummy captain ("oh my", soycard, excelsior dick w/ the swagger stick, Janeway, Cameron, rachel garret, etc) and put in a real one (Kirk, Benjamin Maxwell [did nothing wrong], Rixx). There is a reason all the best capatains in their prime were onboard New Orleans-class ships around the TNG era. It was at least a generation older than Galaxy and had gotten it's shit worked-out ~10-years prior.
This kind of writing and worldbuilding is mostly forgotten now, though, since few writers ever really had real jobs much less served in the military, so they don't really think too much about how this sort of thing might work. They just assume the "best" captains get the newest, coolest, wiz-bang, wahoo ship.
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b6d89d No.24003
>>23996
Fair points all around, and pretty much the point I was heading towards: It's not the best measure of ability to compare ships with different mission parameters in mind.
Yeah, if I was looking to get some xeno brown on My hang-down, a Miranda with the boomstick bar might be My first choice. But, if I was looking for a jack of all trades that could operate for extended periods in remote areas, store samples, carry a crew of specialists, and still throw a punch when/if needed, the Constitution class seems perfectly reasonable. Even the Oberth; If I just had one specific function in mind, let's say short range cargo, or data collection, I wouldn't waste time or resources on a huge-assed connie or a sharp-fanged Miranda, I'd take the Oberth gladly.
I am a bit biased though. In video games where I can chose My equipment or character setup, I always leaned a bit to "capable of most, master of few" setups, so I'd probably pick a Connie anyways, even if it means fucking Myself in certain situations.
That, and the Connie-refit and it's bigger sister, the Ambassador class give Me a fucking boner. If They made an Ambassador class with swept-back pylons like the connie refit, it'd be pornographic for Me. Don't judge.
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57be63 No.24009
I thought it was established that the Connie was part of a small line even in TOS and even then it was an old ship? Also they had a lot of references to other ship classes on panels but never showed anything cause studio models are expensive.
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f276a6 No.24023
>>24009
I guess when it comes down to it, there's established and there's established. Technically, if it showed-up on screen then it's "established" and part of canon. But a lot of things showed-up on screen and imply things that are impossible or absurd… like that the Miranda-class Reliant survived the battle with the Enterprise and the subsequent Genesis explosion in the Mutara nebula and participated in the Dominion War ~70+ years later. Or that the Melbourne NCC-62043 is both an Excelsior and Nebula-class starship. Or that Starfleet decided to honor the memory of the crew and legacy of the USS Grissom by giving it's name to a heavy cruiser and it's registry number was changed. All these are production goofs, obviously, but since there is no hard and fast authority anymore to account for them and iron-out the canon on a continual basis, it pretty much defaults to a multiverse of gradient faggotry produced by emotionally-disabled fans with too much time on their hands.
As to the specific number of Connies produced, it's whatever fits into the scheme at hand - it's whatever is internally-consistent both in letter and spirit. There is currently no legitimate extant authority on Star Trek canon to say otherwise. As far as i'm concerned, shit like that was always written in pencil instead of pen.
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22bb7f No.24162
Should point out that a good chunk of Starfleet Battles was actually made canon especially in early TNG and the TMP. Especially Fed ships and Orion weirdly. Then they sort of forgot about it and then buried it under the sand as it were. Think from the database there was only ever like 30-40 Constitution Class ships actually made, 50 if you count the Dreadnought version of the Constitution.
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12e458 No.24221
>>24162
>only
30-50 is actually a lot, i would think. The traditionally accepted number is around a dozen, I think… but that always seemed a bit too low and not really well considered. I could live with ~25 Constitution-class ships as deep space heavy cruisers during TOS. They were what… 15 years away from Excelsior at that point? There may have been another as-yet unknown heavy cruiser that came between Constitution and Excelsior as well, also.
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d509f9 No.24237
>>24221
It's entirely possible that most federation starship designs are limited run platforms that simply get replaced/upgraded as newer tech and engineering techniques come about.
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b3f2ab No.24238
>>24023
>Reliant
They could have renamed the ship like with the Defiant at the end of DS9.
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c3ad93 No.24249
>>23993
>>23996
>>24003
>>24009
>>24023
>>24162
>>24221
>>24237
>Connie Autism
>Ship Autism
>And I've missed it all
Well shit I feel like I need to interject here for a moment.
Yes a lot of Starfleet Battles got canonized then forgotten about. So there are indeed roughly about 40 odd Connies or at least variants which isn't a small number by any means but isn't a large number. See Starfleet Battle ship list which is considered semi-canon. Would upload .pdf but can't on this board. https://files.catbox.moe/4vfaqq.pdf
The Constitution Class was 20 years old by the time of the TOS so it wasn't by any means state of the art but it was a rugged dependable vessel. It was also multirole although it can be argued this is also it's flaw since while it's good for a lot of things it doesn't exactly excel at anything hence why Light Cruisers like the Miranda were able to give it a very bloody nose in a fight although the Miranda is in fact a newer ship.
To explain this shit in further detail you probably want to understand the difference between a Blue-Water and Green-Water Navy. A Green-Water Navy describes ships that basically operates within your borders. A Blue-Water Navy is designed to operate beyond your borders and essentially project your power globally. Green-Water Navies tend to consist of mainly up to Frigates and Destroyers but also can contain Battleships which are often too expensive to maintain outside of local waters or in more cases to valuable to waste outside of local waters. What should be noted is that many ships that tend to operate as Green-Water Navies can operate as Blue-Water Navies but usually as part of squadrons with heavier logistical support which is why ships like Battleships and even Carriers are more often than not Green-Water not Blue-Water Naval Ships. Ships that can operate in Blue-Water independantly tend to really be Cruisers, some Destroyers and Submarines. This translates well to Star Trek Navies as you will have a Green-Water Navy that is meant to patrol within your borders and a Blue-Water Navy that is meant to go outwidth and essentially expand your borders. The Constitution was very much a Blue-Water Naval Ship which is why you could see it operating alone independantly. It was a Heavy Cruiser at the time of the TOS and while the loss of one would be considered a disaster it would not be a catastrophe. It was always operating outside Federation Borders most of the time and while being aboard one was a high-risk assignment with ridiculous attrition rates it was a ship that was expendable.
If I were to compare the Constitution to the Galaxy Class there's a fundamental difference in how each ship operates or is deployed. The Galaxy Class was pretty much a Green-Water Navy Ship; rarely deployed outside Federation Borders and even when it was it was either with support or other ships had already explored the region ahead of them to make sure shit was safe. That's cause the Galaxy was more or less a Battleship rather than a Heavy Cruiser and was more around to solidify a Federation's claim on a sector. A new alien race might encounter something like an Constituion Class in a First Contact situation but where they would meet the Federation delegation would be aboard the equivalent of a Galaxy Class. In short the Constitution was meant to expand Federation power while the Galaxy was meant to establish the Federation's power.
We actually don't have anything really to compare the Constitution with other than the Intrepid Class which is a 24th Century Constitution. While the Excelsior did eventually replace the Constitution later on at the time when both were operating together the Constitution was still a Blue-Water vessel while the Excelsior was a Green-Water; later quickly becoming a Blue-Water once larger more powerful Federation vessels appeared. What we probably need discussion more of are ships like Sabers, Hermes, Saladin, Oberth etc i.e. the real backbone of the Federation Navy.
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b6d89d No.24258
>>24249
This is a fuckin' quality rundown of vessel operations and deployment. Your autism serves You well.
>What we probably need discussion more of are ships like Sabers, Hermes, Saladin, Oberth etc
Also this. The connie was a big, deep space, multi-purpose heavy cruiser. It was a fine class, but it's not going to be the best fit for every fucking task; That's where the other ships of the line come into play. And likewise, those other ships may be great in their intended rolls, but suck Pakled balls in tasks better suited to the connie. I sure as hell wouldn't want to take a Saladin, with it's single warp nacelle, on a deep space, long term mission into the unknown, but I would take a Saladin on a boarder patrol mission.
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867008 No.24348
>>24237
>It's entirely possible that most federation starship designs are limited run platforms that simply get replaced/upgraded as newer tech and engineering techniques come about.
I'm experimenting with this idea, actually. The concept being that ship designers operate on an established timeframe for producing ship designs… roughly 20-year "generations"… and they always produce a new prototype class for each iteration. Some only see the single experimental ship… others are produced in mass and maintain production for 200 years, in the case of Oberth-class. I'll post the chart i'm working on to the ship autism thread.
>>24238
It was Miranda-class NCC-1864. Just a production goof, tbh, but it illustrates the point.
>>24249
2 nacelles. pic checks out. you are welcome to post more autism in the main thread. Good insights re: blue-water/green-water.
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d1caae No.25772
/r/DsystromInstitute had a theory where the connie was the massivly overbuilt experimental ship with all the massively overpowered toys; and had only a few built.
I'd add to this it was probably thought that 'a few OP ships' would be the fleet, but the feds probably discovered cheaper ships in quantity could do much more and for cheaper. (Compared to a full rollout of Cunnies.)
The class was probably a white elephant after that used for testing experimental starships and the like. The Refit was probably Scotty's doing, and only done to 'stretch' out the techs that were put into it. And that was probably a dissappointment in all areas. (As everything was done better in later Excelesor class ships, save the failure of the transwarp system.)
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2f277e No.25805
>>25772
>Admitting to being a Redditor
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c3ad93 No.25808
>>25772
>/r/DsystromInstitute
Anon I do hope you know we have to bully you now out of principle?
Besides the theory about the Excelsior being a good design held back by the autism of Starfleet Corp of Engineering is better who wouldn't sign off on an excellent Cruiser design cause "Muh Transwarp" Plus there's also the Constellation Class to consider which is essentially a Constitution that is overly built
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12736b No.25816
>>25772
>Fanboi theory is their shipfu must be super OP snowflake vessel
Yup sounds like a Reddit theory. In reality if you take what this >>24249 nigger said there's actually a fair number of Connies, even if you take canon only you have at least 30 of them. Say the size of Starfleet's capital ship fleet is 600 this does not include all the auxiliary support ships and countless other police vessels you will have which is a fair estimate at the time and 50 of them are Heavy Cruisers that's not a small amount of them. That's 1/12 of your fleet. Keep in mind to this ratio you will likely have around 100 Light Cruisers, 150 Destroyers, a dozen Battleships/Carriers and rest made of Frigates that's a fairly average fleet lineup.
So no I would say the Connie is not some special snowflake vessel and that's where a lot of the appeal about it comes from. It's a run of the mill aging Heavy Cruiser.
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178fee No.26027
>>25772
>/r/DsystromInstitute
Only thing worse than pointless STD threads.
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bd55f3 No.26061
>>26027
STD threads aren't pointless. They give us an excuse to bitch about STD.
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d2428f No.27936
Connies are gay.
That is all.
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