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43893e No.26728 [Last50 Posts]
ITT "villains" who did nothing wrong.
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1c86a7 No.26730
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dcc69e No.26742
This motherfucker was the only realistic depiction of a naval captain in the franchise thus far
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490f8b No.26746
>>26730
Was human society post-scarcity during ENT?
He was businessfag, did he sell Helium 3 or something?
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1c86a7 No.26754
>>26746
Whatever he sold, he only sold it to Terrans
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d50cb0 No.26757
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f69041 No.26758
>>26728
Should have burned them all, really.
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7a0a12 No.26759
>>26758
>6 posts before this became the new Dukat thread
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880c6d No.26773
>>26742
It's actually kinda enraging how the regular cast come across like a bunch of worthless whiny dumbfucks
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b11f04 No.26781
She did nothing wrong. Bajorans were all brainlets who would've been better off if they just listened to her and not a space nigger shilling for the Federation.
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7663b4 No.26783
>>26742
Was he really portrayed as a villain though. From what I remembered the most they can get on him was that he was being a hardass to Riker. Even that one is still justifiable considering the circumstances. Everything else he did fucking right and reminded some of the lazier fucks in the ship that it's not all holodecks and tea time. Space is not for the faint of heart or the candied of asses.
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51bd2e No.26788
>>26783
Jellico was fascinating. I wonder if he's basically Starfleet's go-to captain for this sort of temp situation. A solo troubleshooter who they can send anywhere and trust to get shit done right, no matter what sort of crew, station, or ship he's got at the moment.
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7a373e No.26789
Wynn was still insufferable, because she ultimately just cared about petty recognition…and Dukat finally lured her with that.
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6c3327 No.26805
>>26730
Such a good villain that Jew Jew Abrams ripped off his laser hitting San Fransisco only 4 years later for Star Trek (2009).
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6c3327 No.26806
>>26783
No, Jellico was a faggot. The Enterprise handled a million different situations so why do they need a "hard ass" Captain? Picard's tea time approach seems to work just fine.
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941430 No.26807
He could have given Star Fleet a decisive edge with this technology. Picard was a fool to call it in. If humankind gets destroyed by their non-human enemies one day it will largely be his fault.
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1c86a7 No.26809
>>26805
Did he? I completely forgot that movie after I walked out of the theater.
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1c86a7 No.26810
>>26806
I have never seen a post more wrong than yours.
Jellico got the crew ready for war in days, forced the spoonheads to back down despite them having a huge tactical advantage, scared Troi so badly she wouldn't show up on the bridge out of uniform even after he left, and rescued Picard all the while dealing with an extreme high stress situation and a senior staff acting like complete insubordinate faggots.
Jellico > Picard
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45b5c1 No.26811
>>26806
Picard's approach might have worked in most situations, but Jellico was able to get the situation resolved quicker and with better success. In a military situation you want a man like Jellico, tea time might be passable when you're a diplomat but diplomats aren't for everything.
>>26807
Agreed 100%, even Picard's justification (muh peace) was trash. What's the worst that would happen if the Feds broke the treaty? Not war, because the Romulans know they've lost the only edge they had over Fed ships with their cloak, and the Klingons are allied with the Feds as well. At most the Romulans would just become hostile and try to weaken the Federation through subterfuge, which is exactly what they were already doing anyways.
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763d1c No.26818
>>26759
It's not our fault Dukat is the best character in the whole franchise.
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7663b4 No.26820
>>26788
>Jellico was fascinating. I wonder if he's basically Starfleet's go-to captain for this sort of temp situation. A solo troubleshooter who they can send anywhere and trust to get shit done right, no matter what sort of crew, station, or ship he's got at the moment.
In some businesses and organizations, that is not unheard of. Someone they send to fix the shit that no one else could or would even unofficially or under some pretense project.
>>26806
>The Enterprise handled a million different situations so why do they need a "hard ass" Captain? Picard's tea time approach seems to work just fine.
Picard's approach "worked just fine" thanks to a huge amount of plot convenience, or for a captain of a Galactic Love Boat and Model Space Condo sales&recruitment mission. Jellico is much more believable in a disciplined military organization, despite Starfleet's insistence that it's not really military.
>>26810
Geordi seemed to be handling it okay iirc, he was slightly stressed out over the less than regular leisurely shift hours, but considering the situation at hand nowhere near to the degree of numbahwaaahn jazz tantrum in those episodes.
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70030a No.26822
>>26820
Data liked him also. Worf was on the mission but would have liked him otherwise (iirc he might have been pissed he didn't try to rescue Picard). Marina Sirtis wanted to ditch the one-piece so she liked him even if Troi didn't.
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d1294c No.26824
>>26818
Yeah, Dukhat was pretty awesome.
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b28356 No.26827
But how would Jaleco have faired in David Warner's naked torture light-counting challenge
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b83e9e No.26831
Crystalline Entity.
It was just a hungry cow grazing through space as I understand it. No sin in that.
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8cc2cf No.26837
>>26827
>Listen here you Spoonhead Jerkoff, now that the pants are off there is going to be shit on this dick or blood on my knife, and I don't see any knife!
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490f8b No.26839
>>26728
He literally did do nothing wrong, why were the cunts treating this genius so poorly?
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78ee80 No.26842
>>26839
he stole hundreds of embryos, that would get him locked up even without the augmented part.
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45b5c1 No.26846
>>26831
But if we assume that it's just a hungry animal, are you not also justified in killing a wild animal without provocation?
>>26842
Embryos aren't children you bigot, stop living in the 20th century. It's CY+139 now, after all.
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1c86a7 No.26848
>>26827
Honestly I think he'd had snackbarred before then rather than be captured. Jellico is a pragmatist so wouldn't take the risk of breaking under sedation to save his own skin. He'd also be aware what he's in for having experience with Cardassians. And simply because he's a hardass.
>cardassians surround Jellico
>raises hands, drops phaser
>phaser set to overload
>NOT TODAY MOTHAFUCKAAAAAAZ
BOOOOOOM
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490f8b No.26849
>>26842
They were just sitting there unused though, like Palestinian land. If you don't use it, you lose it. That's perfectly fair.
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7816b2 No.26850
>>26757
Eddington.
Came her to post this mofo.
Better than all your hard-ass generals imo
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490f8b No.26851
>>26850
>peace and science suck, imma get revenge for not being allowed to kill people anymore
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78ee80 No.26854
>>26846
>Embryos aren't children you bigot
Then he stole and destroyed government property, which is a federal crime
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7816b2 No.26856
>>26851
Maybe I'm mis-remembering. I don't recall any revenge stuff. Just the fight for Maquis space.
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3b2d89 No.26866
>>26818
It's nobodies fault. Also, wasn't criticizing - /strek/ should always have at least one good Dukat thread running at any given time.
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1f4771 No.26869
>>26820
>Picard's approach "worked just fine" thanks to a huge amount of plot convenience, or for a captain of a Galactic Love Boat and Model Space Condo sales&recruitment mission.
If Jellicle had been trapped in as many lousy episodes as Picard was, he'd have his own plot conveniences to answer for. Chain of Command doesn't make Picard look too bad, or even Geordi, just Riker. I think by that point in the show the writers had decided that he was just an asshole after all. This comes across in "Second Chances" as well. The guy can't very well be almost-a-captain for seven years, so they settled on him being a born middle manager, a Peter Principle beneficiary who needs other people to be effective at anything. (But he's "a great pilot", a common SciFi answer to establishing that some plainly useless character is actually good at something). He's actually a great character, much better drawn than most of the supporting cast, but he sucks as an officer.
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b83e9e No.26918
>>26846
Absolutely.
In fact i would say data's grandma could be a good entry for this thread as well.
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45b5c1 No.26919
>>26918
Yeah, that was what I was >implying–there wasn't really a wrongdoer in that scenario.
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0df151 No.26928
>>26869
Riker's problem is that after Best of Both Worlds his arc on the show was complete. He let go of Picard and took command. He should have gone off to another ship, or they should have had Picard die, or get promoted to Admiral and have a fleet of ships. Instead, he was just suspended at the moment after Best of Both Worlds - a good first officer.
The Riker in the alternate reality where Picard died is the character they should have had. He's settled in to command in his own style and the Enterprise is his ship.
Spock was capable of command, but there was always a kind of explanation that Spock was too cold to be a good captain. Riker was supposed to be the whole package.
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45b5c1 No.26930
>>26928
Especially considering he was shown to be a hotshot focused on his career for all of the first part of the show–supposedly the reason he stopped fucking Troi was to chase another pathway to Captain.
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5052fa No.26931
>>26928
The evidence of Riker being a good first officer, much less a good captain, is pretty damn thin. He's a good foil/sounding board for Picard and not much else. Even in the episode Parallels, we see that having Riker as captain led to the destruction of the entire federation in at least one timeline.
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cf2cfd No.26932
>>26783
>Was he really portrayed as a villain though.
no. But, today he certainly would be. The archetypal "firm but fair" old white boss has been on the chopping block since the 60's and pretty much on the endangered species list since the 90's. It's all but banished today, having been relegated to a mere setup to character assassination by shit writers (see Stannis from Game of Thrones, et al). I have a theory about why this is and - politics aside - i think it has to do with the people who write this shit and so many people who work in influential industries spend little if any time working under this type of boss anymore. They don't serve in the military (no draft) and if they have them as a boss, it's briefly, probably in high school or college. If he's their professor they drop the class. They get to experience a bit of the dick-swinging and the tearing-down, but they never stick around long enough to understand the purpose behind the fuckery… which is to build you back up. Jellico was shaking shit up and unnerving the crew, but there was a method to his madness, which you have to be open to. The people who write shit these days have zero time for that sort of male and reflexively despise them for how they come across. They may want to shoe-horn the character into a female, but it rarely works… usually coming across as bitchy, neurotic, and unfair (even psycho), since the writers can't help but inject healthy amounts of YAS QUEEN and feminine caprice. That is not Jellico's archetype.
>>26788
>>26820
Jellico was basically the "corporate fixer" guy., like Alec Baldwin's character in Glen Gary Glen Ross. Sometimes they're shown sympathetically, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're "home office", sometimes they're the "district supervisor", somtimes they're just a "new commanding officer" like Jellico, but it's always about conflict and shake-up.
>>26869
Riker is indicitive of a franchise problem of never establishing how Starfleet crews actually work long-term. It's in their interest to have them all stay together like a family, but Riker presents a problem (as would most first officers). TOS actually got it right the first time by making Spock a specialist. He's the first officer and the science officer. His track could plausibly be terminal at Commander or a non-CO grade Captain (in my head canon, that's what 3 solid pips + 1 hollow pip denotes).
Most of the TNG crew are specialists of one sort or another and could plausibly have terminal career tracks that explain why they never move-on. Riker has no specialty besides eating and fucking traps, so that puts him on the command track like Shelby and results in the obvious ridicule for being "stalled". Personally, i actually like that idea… it dovetails nicely with his beard, weight gain, and obvious depression. But, if they wanted to avoid it, they should have given him a specialty.
>>26928
the die was cast by BoBW and the thinking was they might lose Patrick Stewart. They had no backup plan, though, for them all staying together and had already pretty much spelled-out through Shelby that everybody thinks Riker is a loser, which kinda makes trying to explain his career some other way kinda awkward. After BoBW, it's pretty much established that Riker is a loser. In fact, the talk of Riker getting a command starts in Season 2 if i remember correctly, probably also in preparation for PStew jumping ship.
In retrospect, the idea of Riker getting the Titan or becoming an admiral and commanding the Enterprise is as absurd as Riker and Troi marrying in their 50's. He leaves when Picard does and retires to Risa or Alaska.
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45b5c1 No.26933
>>26931
That's the timeline where everyone declared war on the Federation for outgrowing their hair, it doesn't count.
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0da56e No.26938
>>26932
>Riker is indicitive of a franchise problem of never establishing how Starfleet crews actually work long-term. It's in their interest to have them all stay together like a family, but Riker presents a problem (as would most first officers).
To be fair, this is a problem that literally every show with a main cast, that is part of a military, similar organization with a very formalize hierarchy, or just a set time limit like a school or even a family sitcom with teenagers has to deal with. Most just choose ignore it entirely.
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cf2cfd No.26939
>>26938
Yep, you're absolutely right. I say it's a franchise problem because TNG actually made it worse when TOS does a pretty good job of working around it, especially with the films. it's never really addressed in the later series, despite having ample opportunity. But you're right, it's a pretty common TV
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0da56e No.26940
>>26939
> TOS does a pretty good job of working around it,
Getting canceled before the show was around long enough for it to become an obvious problem is hardly working around it.
Though TNG was particularly awkward, Riker staying put because he expected to somehow literally go from first officer to flagship captain was just silly, and made him look delusional. And later seasons having star fleet go " Yes, sure, you saved the entire federation two years ago, but what have you done for us lately to justify a command?" when he did seem ready to go made star fleet look… well, I don't what to say like assholes, because there's never a point in TNG where star fleet weren't giant assholes.
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9684b3 No.26943
>>26931
That was where every possible reality had occurred and they were merging. It's not a good example of what Riker was capable of.
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0da56e No.26944
>>26943
it could have easily just been a Riker from a universe where the writers didn't castrate the borg down to just being mild cyborg zombies threats that can easily be defeated by tossing sufficient amounts of technobabble at them.
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1a7eda No.26950
>>26940
>Getting canceled before the show was around long enough for it to become an obvious problem is hardly working around it.
They made six films.
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5052fa No.26953
>>26950
I guess Sulu made captain at about the same age as Riker
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58a6d4 No.26954
Not a villain, but he should have been. What a better end for Wesley than being murdered by a guy who you sabotaged with your gay little science project.
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729776 No.26957
>>26953
not sure how old he was canonically, but probably. Sulu's advancement was somewhat awkward if for no other reason than he appears to never have been first officer on any ship. However, we can rationalize that when an old crew is retired, as is the case of Kirk's crew, some of the members choose to remain deployed to ships instead of taking academy jobs or desk jobs somewhere (or retiring themselves), despite the fact that they may in fact be retirement age - or close to it. So, someone like Sulu would get fast-tracked to the captain's chair instead of being "the old guy" on a younger crew. This happens in corporations with strong corporate cultures, where they pride themselves on promoting from within and never laying-off employees. When a department or unit gets eliminated, they find a place for even the older employees, usually by fast-tracking them to other branches of the organization.
Whats most weird about Excelsior isn't Sulu as much as it is the rest of the bridge crew, who appear to all be middle-aged and a completely different crew from the one from ST3, with Captain Swagger Stick. It's obviously just a casting issue and nobody really put this much thought into it, but it still makes for a jarring transition. I'm sure we could come up with any number of plausible scenarios as to why it could have turned-out that way, especially since it's the movies and we never go into much detail. Riker is a thornier situation.
>>26954
i always liked this guy
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9684b3 No.26960
>>26950
And they had Spock become Captain of the Enterprise in TMP. Kirk's arc in the first four films was missing the command of a starship.
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fc014f No.26961
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955fc3 No.26965
>>26957
Riker was promoted to Captain but for whatever reason got demoted after saving the Federation. Kind of dumb that wasn't explained although it's said that he pretty much could choose any ship he liked after the Borg.
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67b918 No.26968
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8fd25d No.26969
>>26965
He was acting Captain of the Enterprise, which is different.
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c02e72 No.26971
>>26969
true, but anon is correct that he had his choice after those events and refused to take the captain's chair, presumably because he had grown lazy and complacent onboard the Enterprise. It's more evidence to suggest that (a) Riker was washed-up and (b) the Enterprise was more of a cushy desk-job tier ship than an actual important vessel where up-and-coming officers would want to be placed.
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b83e9e No.26972
>>26919
You are alright anon.
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5052fa No.26986
>>26943
>It's not a good example of what Riker was capable of.
A good example of what Riker is capable of is being outsmarted by Pakleds. The main Riker in Parallels is honestly the only time I can remember Rikee being in command and not completely screwing everything up.
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9dcc4b No.26993
>>26986
It seems like a reasonable criticism of Riker, but there's something about this post i don't like.
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763d1c No.27000
>>26993
It's the weak leftist memes. At least this one isn't one of their walls of text.
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45b5c1 No.27001
>>27000
Trips confirm leftist memetic deficiency. The only time the left can meme well is when they inadvertently create right-wing propaganda.
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318399 No.27002
>>26986
>A good example of what Riker is capable of is being outsmarted by Pakleds
Let's not do this. Kirk lost his ship to space hippies.
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490f8b No.27003
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9fec0a No.27041
>>26856
The main reason Eddington defected was that he had no real career prospects in star fleet.
Security goons don't get promoted in a pacifist utopia that doesn't believe in militarise any more.
Irony was that if he had toughed it out a year or two more, officers like him would become rush promoted when the dominion war raised the demand for actual soldiers.
>>26940
Once Jellico had his turn in command of the enterprise, I suspect the main reason Riker couldn't get promoted was that Jellico likely added a few comments to Rikers service record about being unfit for command. And with something like that on his service record he will never get another promotion or command.
Also, once Riker had refused a command or two, the admirals back in Starfleet HQ might simply think he lacked confidence in his own ability to command and thus skip him from any future offers for commands.
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8cc2cf No.27042
>>27041
>Rikers record
>See notes under Jerkoff
>Jerkoff - Captain Jellico
And thus another Commander while never get his own Command.
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57636f No.27120
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8343fe No.27121
All this guy wanted to do is build a wall and deport them all. For that, Starfleet sent Archer to assassinate him. Making Earth Great Again was too much for the cucks at Starfleet command that wanted to delegate all the big decisions to aliens who are hostile to each other.
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b28356 No.27134
<boo hoo muh robot rights
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d468ca No.27137
>>26969
Do they issue the four pips for an acting captain? If it's a temporary thing I don't think they get those, and Riker had four pips. I thought Starfleet presumed Picard was dead and formally elevated him to Captain.
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7fa54c No.27140
>>27137
I think it was a field promotion which was rescinded, for which there is precedent in navies (during a war there could be multiple captai s created who are not necessary in peacetime so they are reduced in rank)
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43893e No.27176
>>27134
I liked Pulaski. She was the McCoy to Data's gary stu Spock.
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0779c8 No.27178
>>26866
I wish there were more than just six episodes of Dukat in power. Should have given it at least a season, with constant station log entries of Dukat like in the 6x1.
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fd0473 No.27185
>>27178
If they followed the original plan of making 8 seasons instead of 7 we might have seen that.
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9684b3 No.27189
>>27176
Data (or Spock) wasn't a Gary stu. You're being a faggot.
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0779c8 No.27201
>>27185
I've read that the main reason to make Dukat from am Machiavellian statesman to an autistic genocidal maniac was because fans showed up at conventions starting to defend Dukat's actions during the occupation. Can you imagine the collective OY VEY in the writers room when they saw a bunch of left-liberal nerds starting to defend what they basically set up to be Nazi Germany? So guess what, we need to make Charles Manson out of him and have him possessed by the literal devil, maybe that will help.
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42a68d No.27202
>>27201
The real story is that the production kept receiving more fan mail about Dukat than Sisko so Ira Steven Behr got pissed and turned Dukat into a cliché of a villain. Marc Alaimo hated the drastic change and had several heated discussions with ISB.
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0779c8 No.27207
>>27202
Sisko was by far the most colorful captain (no pun intended) but the problem was he got a sort of "moral plot armor" as the main character, which is boring. It was just impossible to make him into a villian type, because back in these days, the regulars need to come out as the good guy winner. If DS9 was produced 2017 by Netflix or HBO it might have been very different, with Sisko turning somewhat evil and Dukat nailing Kira. It was just another time.
So scroll back to the late 90s, and Dukat comes across as a character who could do anything in the next episode. This excitement and unpredictability made him so popular, because DS9 was a pioneer in long overarching stories and character development. It's basically GoT in space by 90s standards.
Regarding Marc Alaimo, he always striked me as a cool dude and talented actor, only matched by Jeffrey Combs and Casey Briggs, but he never got another role like Dukat. Kinda sad.
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f2f4cf No.27209
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>27178
Any chance Marc Alaimo might be up for a new series?
<Star Trek: The Terok Nor files
>A team of newly graduated SF intelligence officers are poring over the records and reports of the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor.
>Both official Cardassian records and Bajoran resistance files
>Episodes split, alternating episodes told from both perspectives
>Over time it becomes obvious that the Bajoran records are increasingly overblown and exaggerated
>Become flat undeniable fabrications when it starts talking about "muh 5 trillion gorllion!"
>Throughout the series Dukat is shown as an intelligent, shrewd, master of realpolitik who simply tried to make things better for the occupied people while keeping to the unrealistic demands from the Central Command and doing everything he could to limit the suffering of the Bajorans (who he honestly cares for)
>Occasionally an aging Sisko wanders in and goes full 'Angry Black Captain Ranting' mode about how much he hates DOO-KAT!
>By the end of the show young, idealistic, humans, vulcans, and betazoids are forced to admit the truth.
DUKAT DID NOTHING WRONG
>Last episode sees them being expelled from the federation and welcomed in by the newly reformed Obsidian Order
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45b5c1 No.27210
>>27209
I have never given a cent to Kikestarter but a project like this would make me reconsider that policy.
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2e5522 No.27211
Marc Alaimo would have been a great Thrawn
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7816b2 No.27213
>>27209
>>27210
>Alt-right: In Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace
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45b5c1 No.27215
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7663b4 No.27220
>>27207
>If DS9 was produced 2017 by Netflix or HBO it might have been very different, with Sisko turning somewhat evil and Dukat nailing Kira. It was just another time.
>2017
>Netflix
>with Sisko turning somewhat evil
Anon,I.jpg
But really, no it won't and definitely not if Netflix is handling it. If anything it would likely go full Kangz, or an even more beaten over your head literal BLACK JESUS PERSECUTED BY HUWHITE KARDASHIANS NOW IN SPEHS FUGG NOT DRUMPF WE ARE THE RESISTANCE!
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2ee8c6 No.27234
>>27213
>Using the term alt-right
>« ƸЖƷ » in name
Fuck off back to /leftypol/, faggot.
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0ed6cc No.27237
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45b5c1 No.27244
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0852f2 No.27253
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2744b4 No.27254
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7f234d No.27255
>>27252
>actually defending Bajorans
Filtered.
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f20c70 No.27258
>>27252
"Dukat did nothing wrong" isn't a meme, he literally did not break a single moral or ethical rule during his entire behavior in the series. Even the backstory, which is shittily written, has him never doing anything really bad.
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763d1c No.27262
>>27253
>>27255
>>27258
Butterfag is a cancerous piece of garbage from /b/. Filter and move on.
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490f8b No.27263
>>27258
>2378
>There are STILL no statues of Dukat on Bajor
>they never thank him for his good deed
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f3a9f7 No.27265
>>27258
The only flaw Dukat has was his pathological narcissism.
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5d671b No.27266
>>27258
Now come on, this is untrue. He stole a guy's wife and fucked her and cheated on his own wife. But all heroes have flaws.
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eaaa01 No.27268
>>27266
>He stole a guy's wife and fucked her and cheated on his own wife
Firstly he was a long way from home on military service, and there is a long history of military officers needing to take a … personal assistant to see them through such stressful and lonely assignments. Secondly, if they hadn't included that sort of weakness in his profile he'd have been a pretty unbelievable character - and I rather like the Tora/Garak storyline.
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45b5c1 No.27269
>>27268
This tbh, military men on long campaigns can play a little looser with the rules. Odysseus' marriage was seen as one of the most perfect in existence because of his wife's constant rejection of her suitors, despite Odysseus himself getting sum fuc on his way back.
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0852f2 No.27272
>>27269
It is NEVER okay to fuck a guy's wife without killing him first. The whole Iliad is based on that. Adulterers were serious shit. Remember this was in the time when 'alphas' got their shit pushed in by the numerically larger number of angry 'betas' and had to respect marriage
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39061a No.27359
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f20c70 No.27408
>>27265
He was actually awarded "The Most Humble Man In The Sector" award. Twice.
>>27266
I'm…. I'm not seeing where he did wrong.
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1d62ba No.27530
>>26746
It must be, since the Federation is founded 8 (I think) years after the start of Broken Bow.
We see some evidence of post-scarcity in a few episodes (T'Pol references how 1950s earth had currency, when Archer is in the bar on earth at the end of series 2 he doesn't pay, all the trading stuff has to be in-kind since Enterprise doesn't have any currency). Iirc canonically post-scarcity is established like 2 decades after WWIII, after the genocide that Colonel Milosevic Thingy does. Also tbh this why that Sisko episode with the riot on 2030-whatever Earth annoys me: mostly because why would a riot sparked by economic confinement of lumpenproletarians cause radical economic reconstitution after a nuclear war? I thought it was meant to be the war that made humanity decide to end its petty fights and shit? Also why does human civilisation die-out because that Riot doesn't go a specific way? As a meditation on the issues of inner cities in the 1990s it is pretty good, but it makes no sense cannonically.
I mean Roddenberry never properly established the economic rules of Star Trek (perhaps out of ignorance, perhaps out of a desire not to get McCarthy'ed), and what we see in TNG & DS9 is that latinum is a kind of Bretton-Woods style universal trade regime, and a post-currency system like earth acquires it through producing goods (in the federation's case, it appears to be advanced technology), although interestingly a lot of trade in-kind does occur (like when Jake and Nog go around exchanging shit in that episode).
It also isn't established how property relations work in Strek, like the UEG doesn't own everything (or at-least we don't see anything to indicate that), but we also see small businesses (Pappa Sisko's restaurant, Kim visits a cafe regularly in a weird episode of Voyager, Archer visits a bar he liked when he was at uni). In a marxian sense, this is private property (as opposed to personal, which is like your house and that), but at the same time if there is no currency there can't be any wage labour, so is the land owned directly by a proprietor? by the workers? by the state? is it held in common and people agree that "yeah this bar can be here"? The issue is that Roddenberry was a communist (or at-least sympathetic to communism, apparently his wife said he was a fan of Mao so that's something) so I imagine he conceptualised what things would be like in broad-brushes, but not really much deeper than that. TNG tries to establish more pratical stuff out in-space but we see little of stuff on earth, then DS9 shows us how a trading hub works between Fed and Non-Fed economies, but yeah: we have no conceptualisation of property on Earth. So to answer if he is a porky, I would say it is possible but if earth is post-scarcity (which it should be) then he shouldn't exist: there is no profit to be made in a post-scarcity world…
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57d4ad No.27533
>>27530
perhaps the federation runs on Mussolini style socialism where businesses and corporations are still allowed to be privately owned as long as you're a good goy and follow the party line so that the state doesn't have to show up and put a boot on you neck.
As far as I can tell, even though it's never actually spelled out, federation seems to give everyone universal basic income where you basic needs are provided for, though it's not an income, so much as they're just given the stuff outright. Meanwhile they also have some sort of additional stipend system for" luxury" goods like off world produced items or non-replicated food. And some people chose work jobs to obtain more of this discretionary "currency". Now in the real world, this system would fall apart, but since there's no scarcity issues like the bakery having to decide whether to use his limited stock of flour to make basic bread that people need to live off of or to make the expensive cakes that they can earn a profit from, and people are just plain "better" here and don't fail into negative personality traps like like greed, envy, sloth, or addiction somehow, this system manages to work instead of utterly imploding or even worse spilling out and fucking over the primary universal basic income system.
Meanwhile the feds, being holier than thou assholes, just choose to not consider this system of trade and resources an actual form of capitalism or even really talk about it because it's an technically entirely optional sub system people choose to partake in rather than the basis of their society.
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db55dd No.27534
>>27533
>Now in the real world, this system would fall apart, but since there's no scarcity issues
At the risk of autistically repeating myself, I must point out that this isn't really the case, economically speaking. Even in a "post-scarcity" utopia, you still have scarcity of time, labor, and to a certain extent of prestige/perks. Even in such a utopia you'd still need a market economy, and thus a currency, in order to properly allocate resources.
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1d62ba No.27535
>>27533
I would content that Mussolini ran any type of socialism (but that's just economics autism so nevermind).
UBI in-kind seems like a reasonable idea, but one thing we have never established about Star Trek is what is the state of employment? It is obviously not a situation of fluctuating unemployment like a liberal capitalist economy, with UBI in-kind it could be compared to say corporatism or keynesianism but those both require full employment: which we don't see either. It is also not a centrally planned ML economy, since full employment is again absent. So what does that leave us? steady rate of unemployment with a generous welfare state á la Self-management socialism (see Yugoslavia and Kadarist Hungary)? That doesn't seem right either.
What it appears to me is a situation where so few of the population are needed to run civilisation that the vast majority of people are not formally employed (you still need government workers, starfleet officers, there are mentions of an existent Earth Navy in ENT ect.). As such if you need such few people to run society, the vast majority live on this in-kind UBI. I mean Star Trek is never actually portrayed as a theoretically classes society, just one without poverty. Kinda indicates that the Fed does have three classes: required workers (Gov officals, Starfleet officers, teachers, doctors, ect.), voluntary workers (Papa Sisko, Boothby, basically every bartender), and non-employed persons (effectively everyone else). Since to maintain the system, only the first class is required: they get privileges purely by working (as a Starfleet officer, I imagine it is far easier to get Klingon Blood Wine than a rando on Earth par examplé). Voluntary workers are also likely to get more privileges from their work, a trader will get to acquire goods most humans will never see, a bartender will have customers who will pay them in various currencies, ect.
Now what does a rando do on earth? He's a painter in the morning and a carpenter in the evening, like Marx describes? There is an explosion of art like most UBI advocates say? (considering Bashir's comments in DS9, doubtful), civilisation is full of dullards that can't do shit? (Again doubtful, mostly since there is a steady stream of colonists and recruits for various roles in society, which indicates there isn't an issue with people wanting to enter needed roles in society). It also doesn't help that we don't know how many people live on Earth, like if the population of earth was 500m or 1bn this would make a lot more sense than say, 20bn.
But yeah: there exists private (or at-least personal) property, the economy isn't centrally planned (or if it is, it resembles Samoupravni Socializem and not the other economies of the eastern bloc), there is no currency, and there is no scarcity of goods required for living a comfortable life on core worlds (we hear about famines and shortages in the colonies, that makes sense ngl).
>>27534
Well in the TNG era: there is no scarcity of labour due to replicators. Time is only really shown for big things (like starships), and as for rarer goods well we do see currency in the form of Latium (which in most cases, we see the Federation acquire through production of advance technology).
As for requiring a market economy, imma gonna press x to doubt purely because such a market would not be able to uphold itself since so much of the economy would not be effective on market exchange: there is no scarcity of food for example, so how could an agricultural sector work under market exchange? You would see a globalised hyper form of the overproduction crisis of the US in the 1920s.
Ironically, the economics of the Earth colonies make far more sense: since they are de facto run Kibbutzim style with initial agricultural self sufficiency, then industrial, and service self sufficiency.
Also it is mentioned the Vulcans have no currency at-least as far back as the 1950s (again in ENT), so post-currency economics is not limited to earth or the fed, and has existed canonically for at-least 200 years pre-Fed.
It is a weird situation where market exchange could not support it, we don't have central planning, and we have no idea how it could function otherwise. I mean could someone in slavery conceive of capitalism? Maybe we just can't conceive of how it could work.
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45b5c1 No.27536
>>27535
>there is no scarcity of labour due to replicators
That implies there are no jobs, and that's clearly not the case–starships require hundreds of crew to operate, DS9's promenade was covered in single proprietorships, and the Picard family operates a vineyard. The Doctor pitched a play of his to an Earthside publishing firm, so there must be some sort of publication industry. Clearly there are jobs to be done, ergo there's a demand for labor. The supply of skilled individuals capable of performing the work demanded is non-infinite, therefore it is scarce.
>Time is only really shown for big things
I think you misunderstand what I mean by "scarcity of time." It necessarily applies to every action taken by every person, not just for big things. What is meant by scarcity of time is that no one can do everything at once or be everywhere at once, and that means they have to prioritize what they will do now over what they will do an hour from now, or a day from now, or a year from now. Automation and transporters might make the opportunity cost of time much lower than it is now, but "cheap" isn't at all the same thing as "free." So, because people's schedules are not limitless and because people are not omnipresent, there must be scarcity of time.
>there is no scarcity of food for example, so how could an agricultural sector work under market exchange?
That's a very strange example, it's like asking how the horse-and-buggy sector could sustain itself in a market dominated by automobiles, or how an artisan cobbler could hope to compete with industrial road rollers. The answer is they don't–those markets have been replaced by superior ones and they don't exist. In your example, the agricultural industry has been replaced by the replicator industry. And there has to be a replicator industry; even if replicators could produce new replicators (and it's implied in several instances that they need non-replicable components to be constructed), you still need skilled engineering labor to install and maintain them. Also, this is ignoring the fact that replicators are far from the only providers of foodstuff in the Federation. Joe Sisko and O'Brien's mother both cooked using natural ingredients, and it's often implied, especially in DS9, that replicated food "just isn't the same", and that people are willing to pay for meals using natural ingredients. Ergo, despite replicators there very much is a market for agriculture in the Federation, as natural food is an in-demand substitute good for replicated food.
>You would see a globalised hyper form of the overproduction crisis of the US in the 1920s.
I'm afraid you're misinformed on the nature of the Great Depression and the antecedent Roaring Twenties–there was no "overproduction crisis", in fact no such thing exists–it's a Keynesian fiction used to justify the presence of central banks when there is no need for one. The "overproduction" of which you speak is the result of the Federal Reserve's inflationary policy–this kept interest rates artificially low, decreasing the cost of borrowing and causing the increase in investment to outpace the true growth of the market. Were this manipulation not in place, and the price of future money reflective of reality, growth would have been more mild and inline with the market. There would have been no credit expansion and no subsequent crash. Put another way, if the free market price system wer allowed to do what it does best there wouldn't have been a problem.
>Also it is mentioned the Vulcans have no currency at-least as far back as the 1950s (again in ENT), so post-currency economics is not limited to earth or the fed, and has existed canonically for at-least 200 years pre-Fed.
Yes, which is quite simply impossible, but because Trek writers aren't economists and not economically literate they put it in anyways. As long as scarcity of any sort exists (and unless we gain the ability to become immortal, be in multiple places at once, magick things out of thin air, and reverse entropy, there will always be scarcity), you will need some way to allocate those scarce resources, and a market price system is the only feasible way to do so.
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45b5c1 No.27537
>>27535
>>27536
>It is a weird situation where market exchange could not support it
That's the second time you've said this, but you haven't really followed it up with some kind of justification. The Misesian Calculation Problem shows that the only way to properly determine the proper supply and allocation of scarce resources is through a price system, as individual demand and the valuation of factors of production are inherently subjective measures that cannot be calculated through any other means besides a market economy. It doesn't matter how big your computer is, or how much data you've collected, these are problems that only may be solved with a price system.
>I mean could someone in slavery conceive of capitalism? Maybe we just can't conceive of how it could work.
I can see where your metaphor is coming from, but slaves often did conceive of capitalism, or at least of the market. It wasn't uncommon for the head slave of a Roman estate, for instance, to start earning a wage for his work and eventually purchase his freedom from his master.
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22fee2 No.27541
>>27537
>The Misesian Calculation Problem shows that the only way to properly determine the proper supply and allocation of scarce resources is through a price system
>the only way
>proper
>one way to accomplish a subjective goal
There's a reason Economics is the dismal science.
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fccbaf No.27542
>>27541
>There's a reason Economics is the dismal science
In that it's too dry for most people to bother mastering it, preferring instead to subscribe to fantasies about free stuff and grand plans? Sure.
>one way to accomplish a subjective goal
May I suggest you re-read what I posted, or better yet read up on the Calculation Problem firsthand (https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem)? The goal is not subjective, it is an objective goal, reached by objectively defined processes and arguments only the information is subjective.
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fccbaf No.27543
>>27542
Supposed to be a comma after arguments, apologies.
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9fc8f4 No.27559
>>27535
oh god, please don't even try to bring the Vulcans into this. Because as much bullshit and hand waving the federation/earth seems to require to function as shown, The Vulcans just flat out make so little sense that it's often hard to believe they even exist in the same setting that the rest of ST does.
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45b5c1 No.27560
>>27559
I can't give a source but I seem to recall it being said that the Vulcans used a barter system for their economy as well, to make matters worse.
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74bb8c No.30037
>>26811
>What's the worst that would happen if the Feds broke the treaty?
That's the point of Picard's character though: he's a man of principle before anything else. Breaking the treaty isn't the honest thing to do, so he wouldn't do it. Hell, that's what Chain of Command (part 2) was all about. He's willing to suffer and sacrifice to maintain his principles even when giving them up is of no practical consequence. Doing anything but what he did would have undermined everything we know about his character. You might think it's foolish, but there's more to a military victory than tactical advantages. Men like Picard are the only reason why anyone's willing to agree to a treaty in the first place. Without a reputation for honest dealings, the Federation would have to rely on military might to survive, and especially on a galactic scale, that strategy just can't work because you're always hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned.
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0288a6 No.30132
>>30037
>the Federation would have to rely on military might to survive, and especially on a galactic scale, that strategy just can't work because you're always hopelessly outnumbered and outgunned.
Keep in mind also that Starfleet is relatively tiny for the territory it has.
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46ea81 No.30134
>>30132
probably the reason why they got hammered by the dominion so hard
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3be8d4 No.30164
>>30134
The Dominion mistake was not inventing a breed of troops to give Federation women the Big Jem'hadar Cock and plant them as refugees which the Federation would accept in open arms and they would eventually overrun their borders.
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e83c49 No.30165
>>26742
I'd say the way he conduced himself was almost right, only they always make him overdo it because they needed a villain.
>radically changing crew rotation
Great. I just have to question the wisdom of doing that right before likely engagement, as people will still be used to the old system, which can hamper overall crew performance.
>trying to act tough
Good. Just don't be such a tryhard about it. And make sure that you don't come out looking like a faggot when they call your bluff.
You can claim that writers made him into a strawman, but it's how he was written whether you like it or not.
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587f95 No.30166
You know I get the impression Jellico was an attempt by Picard to stop Riker being an overgrown manchild.
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02ae0d No.30252
>>26758
>>26759
6 posts too late.
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b28356 No.30253
>>30166
well that backfired didn't it
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b23724 No.30271
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9fec0a No.30291
>>26827
Jellico, being a competent captain and not desperate for hollywood action fights like Patrick Steward, would never have been dumb enough to try and lead a team of commando's on a raid behind enemy lines in the first place and would thus never have been captured like Picard was.
Picard is a plenty good captain if you need someone to hold a formal diplomatic event, ferry about Federation dignitaries, rush out medical supplies like an overpriced fedex courier or command a ship sitting around gawping at spatial anomalies and shit. If your ship is leading hostile negotiations with people looking for an excuse to go to war with you and your ship might be the only warship within a hundred lightyears of the frontline if negotiations fail however, Jellico is your man.
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d4de10 No.30315
>>30291
I would imagine if he was in danger of getting captured in the first place he would strip naked, oil himself up and start swinging his dong at the Cardassians saying "Your move, Mr Gul"
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