/strek/ - Star Trek

>>22340

>False. They can't restrict the supply of these things, they have no control over distribution, there's no way they could reasonably charge for these things.

Make that clean water and air, and oh yes they can. Try and find clean, fresh water in the middle of a city that doesn't come out of a bottle or a tap. I'll wait. And consider places like Beijing where the air is thick with smog to the point of toxicity.

>be onna farm, draw water from aquifer

>BigMcLargeCo™ buys a plot upstream, turns it into a landfill

>you object

<you can't control what I do with my property

>suddenly aquifer is poison

<lol buy my bottled water goy

Or while I'm bitching, how about this scenario.

>be onna farm

>have well developed water plan such that the most rainfall possible is retained in the soil and any excess is diverted safely

>neighbors upstream and downstream go 'nah, that sounds like work'

>neighbor upstream has insufficient drainage, whenever it downpours it spills over into your property and washes out your fields

>neighbor downstream has insufficient drainage, and whenever it downpours it blocks up with debris and floods your fields

>you object

<see previous rebuttal

And that's assuming a 'best case scenario' of stupidity rather than active malice. What if BicMcLargeCo™ up and down stream did this deliberately with the intent of running you out of business so they could buy the land for nothing?

>>22347

>you can't control what I do with my property

In a privatized system your scenario would be considered an infringement on the farmer's property rights. Same with all other pollution performed in this manner. This would be reflected in privatized courts, and was even the standard practice in public courts, until Congress (see: the state) arbitrarily decreed that this type of property infringement was OK, because the polluting factory was working to the "benefit of society". Examples of this that haven't been cucked by state intervention is the possibility to successfully sue someone for excessively loud music, i.e. sound pollution.

https://mises.org/library/libertarian-manifesto-pollution

https://mises.org/library/law-property-rights-and-air-pollution

https://mises.org/library/pollution-and-government-failure-china

>>22348

For clarification, the guy you responded to wasn't me, the one you and the other anon made the effortposts against. I'll answer them tomorrow as I have to go bed, but boy, there is a lot to dissect there.

For future clarification I'll put on this flag.

>>22347

>>BigMcLargeCo™ buys a plot upstream, turns it into a landfill

><you can't control what I do with my property

That's not how property rights work. A property claim is not simply carte blanche to do whatever you like within a line of the ground. If you poison the aquifer, you've violated the property rights of anyone downstream of you. Before the EPA was created and effectively outlawed the practice, people used to sue and win over those sorts of things.

>What if BicMcLargeCo™ up and down stream did this deliberately with the intent of running you out of business so they could buy the land for nothing?

They'd get sued into oblivion, because property rights aren't just a fucking line on the ground.

>>22347

>>22236

Good point however it contradicts:

1)Actual ferengi behavior

Quark did not give refunds knowing it will only burn bridges and give a net negative benefits.

And his is game over for this theory.

Actually ferengi behavior is not a net analysis of benefits to costs (see pint 3).

2) The other problem is that other rules state to never give back the customers money

>Once you have their money, you never give it back.

What part of "never" and "money" don't you understand?

And this leads to point 3

3) The rules are silly because they are mostly meaningless statements who are self contradictory (see 2) and not actually practiced because actually ferengi behavior simply ignores

>Rule 57: Good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them.

4)

Also I can argue there is a way to obey

> Good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them.

and

>Once you have their money, you never give it back

Simply never give refunds.

And pretend like you care for he good customers and this is completely obeying the rules.

And this brings us to the the problem of ferengi ideology not understanding net benefits and cost analysis.

However thanks for a good counterpoint keep up the good discussion everyone.

>>22487

Like much of Star Trek, they were pretty bad at painting a consistent picture of the Ferengi. Bringing in lots of different creative influences to such a large body of lore over so many years produced numerous contradictions throughout the franchise. The Ferengi are no exception. I vaguely recall there being a rule to the effect of "bend the rules", but I'll be arsed if I can remember it.

Then again, on this particular point; maybe they're just a diverse species full of individuals who, like real-world humans, don't necessarily conform to their culture as portrayed on paper.

>>22488

>consistent picture of the Ferengi

My personal favorite are the episodes who actuality portray the ferengi are right and the no money federation is wrong in DS9.

Personally however I ignore the inconsistencies knowing their origins.

However I don't remember (maybe you can help me with this) even one instance of ferengies ever giving refunds on their faulty products (the mirror universe ferengi don't count because they are the opposite) even if its a token "15 free minutes on the holodeck" coupon.

And ignoring the rules, ignoring everything this is simply a stupid strategy on its own.

Anyone involved in real interaction with customers and a little thinking would realize this.

>>22489

>My personal favorite are the episodes who actuality portray the ferengi are right and the no money federation is wrong in DS9.

Oh those are pretty great. I love when Quark lectures the Vulcan Maquis on going to war. It makes me wonder what a Vulcan/Ferengi hybrid would be capable of. Ferengi are already pretty damn smart; if you throw in the Vulcan discipline, they'd be formidable.

>However I don't remember (maybe you can help me with this) even one instance of ferengies ever giving refunds on their faulty products (the mirror universe ferengi don't count because they are the opposite) even if its a token "15 free minutes on the holodeck" coupon.

Well I think Quark gave some things "on the house" from time to time, and I feel like he might have been worried enough to offer a pacifying refund once or twice, but I can't recall any specific instances.

>And ignoring the rules, ignoring everything this is simply a stupid strategy on its own.

I agree, but there's a difference between ignoring rules and bending them. The Ferengi have a number of policies that don't work in the real world but which exist in the Trek lore just to portray them in a certain way.

>>22072

>no one can build up a society on greed

Oh how wrong you are.

>the first generation ferengi would realize that not telling the rules to their kids is the best idea ever(and actually in accordance with the rules "exploit your family").

They don't tell their kids the rules, that's the whole point. Young ferengi have to buy the information, trade for it, or steal it.

Ferengi don't educate their kids, they work them as hard as possible until the kids figure out how to get out of work and earn money elsewise.

>>22078

>chosenites have a deep respect for their own and family.

No they fucking dont.

Jews jew each other only a fraction of an amount less than goys.

>>22090

>ferengi

>ancap

No they're not. They have two branches of government - the commerce authority and the office of nagus.

The office of nagus is backed up by the ferengi fleet and a million clerks that write regulations, although usually each nagus only approves one or two laws in his lifetime his main job is ensuring the ferengi fleet can protect the assets of a new venture.

The commerce authority is backed up by the board of liquidators, which acts as an institution that interprets and enforces contracts and laws. But instead of being voted in as in a democracy, the richest ferengi get to buy out a previous board member.

The check and balance works this way, the Nagus can impoverish members of the board which they consider a fate worse than death, while the board (in a unanimous decision) can remove a nagus.

So no, they aren't anarchists. They aren't even strictly capitalist, they are mercantilist.

tl;dr calling them ancap is retarded

>>22090

>It's also extremly unlikely that they'd use a hard currency (latinum) instead of fiat currency.

Also ^ is dumb. Latinum is valuable because it physically can't be reproduced, kind of like a bitcoin. Ergo if you have a pocket of latinum, it will retain its uniqueness for billions of years.

This stability allows for trade.

Modern fiat currency is a socialist invention, basically every country promises to shoot anyone who copies its money, and that's the only barrier to reproducing it. It's kind of like fairies, it only works if you believe in it really really hard.

>>22090

>>22512

>>22511

Basically I'm trying to say you are incredibly unintelligent.

>>22512

This issue with this is that they live in a civilization that is virtually post-scarcity and that can zip around mining whatever planets they choose, by the thousands and millions. It's logically ABSURD to suggest that there are ANY elements anywhere in the galaxy that are remotely "rare" enough to be used as a physical currency. Mathematically speaking, the amount of planets in the galaxy is so stupidly vast that it may as well be infinite, and as the Vulcans have taught us: infinite diversity in infinite combinations; this means that it's all but guaranteed that there is an entire planet composed of latinum around somewhere.

It would have been far more reasonable to say that latinum was a completely artificial compound, that was manufactured at prohibitive cost (aka a shitton of energy), akin to what the cost of creating antimatter is, today. That way it would actually make sense for there to be an extremely limited amount of it.

>>22529

>It's logically ABSURD to suggest that there are ANY elements anywhere in the galaxy that are remotely "rare" enough to be used as a physical currency. Mathematically speaking, the amount of planets in the galaxy is so stupidly vast that it may as well be infinite, and as the Vulcans have taught us: infinite diversity in infinite combinations; this means that it's all but guaranteed that there is an entire planet composed of latinum around somewhere.

What? No, that's crazy. First off, something doesn't have to be "rare" to act as a standard of exchange. The criteria are: accepted as valuable, durability, ease of comfort, and granularity. Rare goods are more likely to fit into these categories but they certainly aren't the only ones that can. To use an example, in colonial-era North America beaver pelts were used as a de-facto currency by the pioneers. But your second claim is one that is truly absurd. Yeah, it's theoretically possible that planet made purely of latinum, or gold, or clones of Selena Gomez. But anything like that flies directly in the face of how we know the universe functions, which follows some pretty well-established laws, including those that govern how solar systems form. We know that gold planets are pretty much impossible for instance because gold never forms in nascent solar systems, it can only be created by stellar fusion and deposited on planetoids through asteroids. As of yet we can't conceive of a way that stars would violate conservation of energy and start producing vast amounts of gold early in their cycle; the same applies for all observed scientific phenomena, and you can't defeat the laws of physics by the law of large numbers alone. That's like telling someone he'll make a lot of money betting on baseball games if he assumes that at some point, the ball HAS to pass right through the belt, through the stadium walls, and out the other side.

Further, you're really overestimating the number of planets a) in the galaxy and b) that the Federation has access to. Latest estimates put the number at around 100 billion planets in the Milky Way. Not a small number by any means but hardly infinite. Now, consider that the Federation has explored and settled a tiny amount of that. Even the wildest estimates of the writers put it at 8,000 light-years at its longest point, compared to the 150,000 light-years of the Milky Way's diameter. And travelling between these places isn't free, either. All ships need antimatter and dilithium to operate, neither of which is replicable (incidentally, Quark implies that dilithium is also used as a currency a few times in DS9). So even if there was a planet straight out of the goddamn Improbability Drive floating somewhere out there finding it isn't exactly free, and neither is travelling there.

>It would have been far more reasonable to say that latinum was a completely artificial compound, that was manufactured at prohibitive cost (aka a shitton of energy), akin to what the cost of creating antimatter is, today. That way it would actually make sense for there to be an extremely limited amount of it.

That makes less sense than a natural resource. Technology, energy efficiency, and so forth would no doubt progress faster than the rate at which new deposits are discovered, meaning that this artificial currency will be devaluated more quickly over time than a natural one, and that less stable price makes the artificial less viable as a currency.

>>22539

>something doesn't have to be "rare" to act as a standard of exchange

The value of latinum is stated to be the fact that it cannot be replicated. That means it's rare. The only reason ANYTHING has been used as a currency is when the government can directly control how much there is in circulation, whether because they are rare metals that are expensive to acquire (like gold and silver) or because they are a fiat currency that has security measures meaning you cannot counterfeit them (like dollars). If any shmuck can just go to the nearest asteroid field and mine up a million bricks' worth of latinum, it's useless as a currency.

This is so basic that I don't care what else you said; you're clearly a moron. Talking about things used in a BARTER SYSTEM (fucking beaver pelts) is not an argument that can be applied to a galactic economy.

>>22539

>Further, you're really overestimating the number of planets

This is true/

Star Trek universe posses technology far more advanced than anything humanity will probably ever develop and yet they've barely explored a quarter of the galaxy.

>>22546

>The value of latinum is stated to be the fact that it cannot be replicated. That means it's rare. The only reason ANYTHING has been used as a currency is when the government can directly control how much there is in circulation, whether because they are rare metals that are expensive to acquire (like gold and silver) or because they are a fiat currency that has security measures meaning you cannot counterfeit them (like dollars). If any shmuck can just go to the nearest asteroid field and mine up a million bricks' worth of latinum, it's useless as a currency.

And like I said before, rare goods are more likely to check the boxes of "good currency." However, this is because being rare and difficult to mine/acquire is just a supporting factor to that quality which makes it a good currency–in the case of gold, the difficulty of extraction keeps the price nice and stable. So rarity helps, but there's still two degrees of separation between rarity and good currency. Please be a little more comprehensive when you read in the future.

>Talking about things used in a BARTER SYSTEM (fucking beaver pelts) is not an argument that can be applied to a galactic economy.

1. Wasn't a barter system, I mentioned rather explicitly that they were a standard of exchange

2. I was just using them as an example of something that can be used as a currency even though it's not, strictly speaking, all that rare. I didn't apply this argument in the context of a galactic economy.

>the only reason ANYTHING has been used as a currency is when the government can directly control how much there is in circulation

That's a retarded thing to say. For one, governments never had direct control of how much gold was in circulation, which is one of the reasons governments have elected to choose fiat currency: it gives them a total monopoly over the money supply which they could never achieve with gold. In addition to gold, cryptocurrencies are a sound example of a standard of exchange operating entirely outside of state control, as are the high-value diamonds used by criminal cartels to transfer large amounts of money from one place to another.

>>22487

What you and many people here are failing to understand is that the Rules of Acquisition are a dictionary of justifications. Do you choose not to refund the money of some total fuckwad who just wants to sample your shit and not pay? Well, "Once you have their money, you never give it back". Do you choose to refund the money of your repeat customer because you know he's good for it? Well, "Good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them." The rules may seem contradictory, but that's because they're more complicated than a set of orders for automatons.

>>22559

Also, one must keep in mind that updates to the rules are made by the current Grand Nagus; as a result, seeming contradictions within the rules simply reflect differences in philosophy between one Nagus and the other. If we expand upon this further, the Rules could be almost like modern-era political soundbites: quick, easy ways of denoting what your administration's/pontificate's policy is meant to be. A hypothetical example of this could be Rules 34 (War is good for business) and 35 (Peace is good for business). It could be that these rules were penned by two different Naguses; the former was one who advocated provoking and false-flagging nearby powers into going to war with each other, while selling weaponry to both sides, while the latter could be one that negotiated an armistice between the aforementioned powers. This has the dual benefits of making windfall profits by selling aid to either side, venture capitalists investing in industries that were destroyed throughout the war, while also fostering long-term growth through deregulating trade and allowing the buildup of civic infrastructure on each side. Thus, what was played as a flippant joke in the series can be used to establish greater complexity within the Ferengi religion. In the event of contradiction, you could do what the Muzzies do with teh Qu'ran and say that the newest decree takes precedence in the event of any contradictions. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why the "Religion of Peace" claims are utter bullshit even by theological standards: all of the peaceful shit in the Qu'ran, including the prohibition of suicide, is in the early passages of the book. And since it's quite explicitly established that the newer passages override the older, all of the later stuff about burning the infidel and martyrdom in the name of the holy war is explicitly canon, and takes precedence over any peaceful overtures.

>>22547

So they have access to 25 billion planets. I know that's a big number, and humans aren't good at understanding big numbers, but that's a really, really, REALLY big number. Trust me. You would have to reach the age of 792 to live through 25 billion seconds.

>>22564

Of course it's big; However the probability of finding a planet that defies traditional understanding of astronomy and scarcity and just happens to be made out of large quantities of latinum is decidedly smaller than 1 in 25 billion, which is the point being made. Moreover, it's a trivial issue compared to the other points discussed.

>>22505

Heavily underrated post.

>>22539

5-star post.

>>22546

>That means it's rare.

Actually that just means that its supply in the economy grows slower than the supply of other goods can. It's important to remember that in economic terms, "scarcity" isn't quite synonymous with "rarity"; it refers to the fact that the supply of all goods and services is finite.

>The only reason ANYTHING has been used as a currency is when the government can directly control how much there is in circulation

That's absolutely false. Lots of currencies have been used independently of any government. I'd suggest checking out a practice called "free banking", which used to be much more common in the developed world before various governments outlawed the practice in favor of currency issued by central banks.

>If any shmuck can just go to the nearest asteroid field and mine up a million bricks' worth of latinum, it's useless as a currency.

If the supply of other goods and services in the economy increases at roughly the same rate that the supply of latinum increases, then the economic value of the latinum remains stable. I think it's pretty safe to say that an interplanetary economy would be growing pretty damn fast. If it were easy to increase the supply of latinum at a faster rate than the supply of other goods and services, then it wouldn't have come to be used as currency, but you have to remember that a "million bricks' worth of latinum" is probably a drop in the ocean when compared to the Alpha Quadrant economy. Think of how big the current global economy is, then multiply that by hundreds of inhabited worlds; even without the technological progress, that's insanely large.

>Talking about things used in a BARTER SYSTEM (fucking beaver pelts) is not an argument that can be applied to a galactic economy.

All trade is just a special case of barter. Talking about things used in a BARTER SYSTEM (fucking beaver pelts) is not an argument that can be applied to a galactic economy.

Currency is just a simplification of barter. All the economic principles are absolute and universal; the laws of economics don't change because of the size of the economy, or what's being traded.

>>22602

>If it were easy to increase the supply of latinum at a faster rate than the supply of other goods and services, then it wouldn't have come to be used as currency

This is dangerously close to "it works because it works in canon so fuck you". We pick apart each and every bullshit pretense and trope in Trek, but somehow this one is off limits? What fucking hard-on do you have for latinum that you're so incapable of seeing its obvious logical flaws?

>>22559

> Rules of Acquisition are a dictionary of justifications

Then they are quite irrelevant.

>that's because they're more complicated than a set of orders for automatons.

Sounds more like RoA are inferior bullshit everyone uses to quote to justify anything.

> Do you choose not to refund the money of some total fuckwad who just wants to sample your shit and not pay? Well, "Once you have their money, you never give it back"

>Do you choose to refund the money of your repeat customer because you know he's good for it? Well, "Good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them."

This is better explained by net benefit calculations combined with probability (how likely is it that this customer will shop again at me and give me more befits as a result in a reasonable time frame) + some gut feelings (is he trying to extract free products from me).

I get what you are trying to say.

However I think you are engaging in apologetics who treys to twist something nonsensical into something reasonable

Example:

>"keep your friends close however keep your enemies closer"

<Clearly this is talking about keeping surveillance and being informed on your enemies.

You can try to twist it into something else, however then the original quote fails to explain this detail making them bad.

The

<Oh you philistine can you not understand subtly

<They are better because only intelligent people can understand them this way

Is a final maneuver some apologist tries to play.

>>22560

I like this.

Great idea for a fan fiction.

I also recommend watching (youtube purged all the clips)

Voyager False Profits.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/False_Profits_(episode)

It has the ferengi contemplating the RoA and literally saying :

>No, you idiot! He goes to the Rules of Acquisition.

>Unabridged and fully annotated, with all forty seven commentaries, all nine hundred major and minor judgements, all ten thousand considered opinions. There's a rule for every conceivable situation.

http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/224.htm

>Ferengi religion

Why is everyone saying its their religion?

I understand they have a after life however I don't think the RoA or Nagus are part of it.

>>22631

>its obvious logical flaws?

Latinum is one of the few things in Star Trek that actually makes sense. If you can accept that it can't be replicated like they say in the show, then the rest of it is basic economics of commodity money. The only thing that kind of doesn't make sense about it is the idea that such an interventionist government would allow people to use it, instead of granting itself tremendous economic power by issuing a monopolistic fiat currency. Maybe the Ferengi Alliance is just too big, and Ferengi merchants too canny and cautious of the follies of fiat currency, to enforce such a currency. Maybe they've already tried it and it failed right away due to lack of restraint on the part of the government. Maybe I'm putting more economic thought into this than the writers did.

>>22636

Their heaven is a "Divine Treasury" made entirely of latinum (which begs the question: how do you fucking walk around there when latinum is a liquid?), so it seems money is a large portion of what little religion they have. It has nothing to do with the RoA, though. While it was meant as a tongue-in-cheek reference to people who have a Bible quote for every situation, the RoA are in no way a scripture, despite their obsession over it. You could call it more like the way gun nuts worship the Second Amendment, in that it's still a reverence, but secular rather than sacred. Their guidelines about business, but there is more to life than business, even to Ferengi.

>>22655

>Maybe I'm putting more economic thought into this than the writers did

We all are. The writers just wanted a counterpoint to the money-less Federation, and so invented a culture than still used money. Only they wanted it to be a currency that was not fiat because they wanted the Ferengi to be "primitive" (so like a regression to the Gold Standard). This ran into problems with their own canon that everything can be replicated from pure energy (which is, for practical purposes in the show, limitless). So they just went, "durrr, uh, it can't be replicated?" and were done with it. Since sci-fi writers have no sense of scale, they didn't consider that rarity is completely subjective, and largely irrelevant for a spacefaring race. It forced them to just retcon new things about it when, in DS9, lots more people besides just the Ferengi started using it, and the Ferengi became a lot more than just the comic-relief Space Jews of TNG.

>>22658

>"Divine Treasury"

I was under the impression it was a religion that a money interested people would create.

A reflection of their culture.

Not that the Nagus is some space pope.

>You could call it more like the way gun nuts worship the Second Amendment

I think the comparison is correct.

>>24798

>Personally I think the Ferengi where simply written to be often moronic caricatures who are impossible to exist in reality (in like if they where real and thought about their previous actions they have a break down from all the internal contradictions).

Yep, that's exactly what happened. Roddenberry was always more than a little socialist, and with the freedom he had early TNG decided to make an antagonist faction that represented what he thought of free enterprise.

>>24801

Only early TNG Ferengi where nothing like DS9 Ferengi because they engaged in war and where not basically space jews.

See:

>>22085

They did have honor and where warriors with militaries not the space jew comedy of DS9.

>>22501

>They don't tell their kids the rules, that's the whole point. Young ferengi have to buy the information, trade for it, or steal it.

Factually wrong. Quarks father bought him his RoA and his mother helped him memorize it like the 10 commandments in some Christian family.

>>24798

so basically "ds9 has poorly written aliens"

>>22079

bruh ferengi ideals demand that you monopolise and create a captive market, you cant buy HDDs from anyone else as im the only person selling the ones you need.

>>22236

and also this

>>25839

>you monopolise and create a captive market, you cant buy HDDs from anyone else as im the only person selling the ones you need.

True however:

1) This is never true on the show since Quark is independent and not something like a McDonalds manager who must report to the corporation constantly.

2) Arguably you can buy from other establishments see "Rivals".

3) it is implied that other civilizations are selling and are outside the Ferengi ownership.

4) Never really explore however replicators exist.

5) Arguably the federation can give you free stuff for free however this is never even attempted to be explored.

>>25833

Partially true, I say they are written inconsistently where Quark jumped from comically incompetent caricature in most episodes to smart one especially in "Rivals".

>>25850

yeah that's the issue with ds9, it's partially shit.

>>26132

that's honestly one of the many problems of star trek, we only see the federations side of absolutely everything and anything else is either a means for the plot or a metaphor for commentary so the only aliens who are fleshed out is the ones who are the most popular, hence only federation dominance. I would honestly like to see a star trek show where every episode is a different race solving the same kinda interesting wonders you could theorize in space.

>>26165

it'd be better then federation trash

>>26165

Totally agree!

>>26165

It is only right.

>>26165

>likes of Duras

I read that as "kikes of Duras".

>>33704

>>22079

Like anyone to comment on this.