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/strek/ - Star Trek

Discussion about star trek shows, movies, vidya, etc.
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Use the bunker at https://alogs.theguntretort.com/strek/

File: 319d4d2da37fd7b⋯.jpg (79.99 KB,522x593,522:593,1464466443703.jpg)

2e603e No.20401 [View All]

Hard mode: You can't simply get rid of it.

6 postsomitted. Click reply to view. ____________________________
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f08662 No.20421

Submit to the Borg and be assimilated. Once everyone has been hooked up to the hivemind, there will be no more inequality, wars, misery, diseases, poverty and even bullying.

The borg can solve all our problems, we just have to realise that resistance is futile and submit so they can help us.

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d0d3ba No.20425

>>20421

t.drone.

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08da9e No.20439

Gradually replace all the humans with their mirror universe counterparts. Once the entire high command and commanding officers are in place purge Starfleet of alien influence, subjugate all the alien planets within the Federation, enslave their populations and rename it the Terran Empire.

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52d608 No.20440

>>20439

>replace star trek with degenerate edgelord star trek

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a8cf73 No.20442

>>20439

why do so many people have such a massive hard on for the empire? they were stuck up and decadent, and they lost their power for it and had to claw it back.

how do we fix the federation? easy, fewer ivory tower intellectuals, more pragmatists, more people with practical knowledge and experience. That will solve the problem of impractical technologies and designs, and their air of snobbery all in one.

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399341 No.20448

Regular psyche evaluations on every member of Starfleet above Captain level.

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4c382e No.20449

File: 480e0bd31f838a8⋯.jpg (69.57 KB,599x632,599:632,keynesian_policy1.jpg)

Go back to whenever the Feds switched over form still using some form of currency In TOS there were several line alluding to the officers getting paid, among other things, and started using replicators to create their socialist utopia, then flip off whatever switch Roddenberry installed to put reality on hold. After a few years basic economics will either force the Feddies to switch back to a price system, or they'll start to look like what Venezuela does now. If the latter happens it will encourage sensible people to seize power again, most likely with covert help from S31.

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2e603e No.20454

File: 728b505207d5dd5⋯.jpg (23.33 KB,506x437,22:19,1492058697735.jpg)

>>20442

They lost their power because Mirror Spock instituted a bunch of pussy reforms, which may or may not have worked if it wasn't for the fact that he also slashed the Imperial Starfleet and pretty much disarmed the Empire, allowing the Klingons and Cardassians to swoop in and fuck everyone over.

>The Eternal (((Vulcan)))

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08da9e No.20461

File: 3ab1ad5f5f46d7a⋯.png (135.64 KB,286x358,143:179,3ab1ad5f5f46d7a35b8dd8d128….png)

>>20442

>>20440

Because the mirror universe is the antithesis of Startrek's pozzed propoganda slant.

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d1cade No.20505

Mandatory swoleness programs.

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1073a9 No.20531

File: 47bc1d525f81142⋯.png (103.07 KB,223x289,223:289,The fuck you say!.png)

You turn it into a brothel, because it's already filled with un-swollen lil' bitches.

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b605de No.20742

>>20449

Couldn't agree more anon, the lack of a economic currency is one of the reasons that living in the federation sounds like hell, as there is literally no objective value that can be placed on objects or actions. Even with replicators an economic system still makes sense, makes my blood boil thinking about the arm chair Marxists expositing about the glorious socialist federation, when it's clear the removal of currency created a massive vacuum for a militarised government to step into, hell the president of earth isn't even from earth…….. But then again I think that has very little to do with money.

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a8cf73 No.20745

>>20449

Autism is a powerful force, it seems. Also consider "earning your pay" is just a holdover analogy for doing a good job from a bygone era. And furthermore, modern economics has little bearing on a considerably more advanced future society.

Don't get so hung up on ideology.

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4c382e No.20747

>>20745

>And furthermore, modern economics has little bearing on a considerably more advanced future society.

Objectively false. The governing principle of praxeology is the Action Axiom: that individuals will always take purposeful action to minimize unease. This is and always will be true, replicators or no replicators, because human demand is an effectively insatiable force kind of like autism, and as such won't be removed simply because basic needs are met. Consider that, in first-world countries in the modern era, the principles of economics still apply with complete accuracy despite just about everyone having their basic needs yet. You will always need a free economic system to respond to demand, because even with a hypothetical computer of infinite capacity you cannot effectively measure the subjective nature of demand, only prices can do that. If you want more info on the necessity of a price system see pdfrelated, as I've already sperged enough and this thread isn't the best place for it anyways.

https://volafile.org/r/h6f22g38

What the fuck BO, why can't I post PDFs?

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a8cf73 No.20748

>>20747

I won't turn this into /pol/ thread so I'll leave you with this, human demand will always be a thing but a lot can happen in a few centuries aside from technology, shifts in ideology, what is considered acceptable and so on.

And lastly I think the point of the thread is to fix the federation while still being true to trek as opposed to turning the whole thing upside down

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4c382e No.20749

>>20748

>shifts in ideology, what is considered acceptable and so on.

I'd rather not turn this into a /pol/ thread either, so I'll just say that I consider to praxeology to be an a priori, theoretical discipline as opposed to ideology, and as such that its ideas will always be relevant on some scale.

>And lastly I think the point of the thread is to fix the federation while still being true to trek as opposed to turning the whole thing upside down

Fair enough. But honestly, I think it would be difficult to "fix" the Federation while also remaining true to Trek; the Federation being a socialist utopia on the surface, while in actuality being a carefully-managed Orwellian state that's only barely clinging to life because of S31 constantly putting out brushfires behind the scenes. Or, alternatively, the Federation being an incredibly idealistic utopia that looks like it should fall apart right away but manages to come out on top, thanks to the sheer optimism and competence of a select few heroes within Starfleet. It seems like it would be hard to "fix" this without drastically changing the setting, because the sheer level of broken is what provides a lot of the charm.

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dc3abc No.20751

File: 915705875b97ec2⋯.jpg (46.2 KB,589x480,589:480,J_F_Paxton.jpg)

>>20415

>Kick out all the xeno trash.

I like the way you think son.

Terra Prime forever.

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ee69d0 No.20783

>>20415

Would it be possible to build a wall and make Vulcan pay for it?

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cc8ada No.20894

Steps to fix the Federation:

1. Make more star bases and spread out the population so there are fewer big cities (this will cut down on the pozz)

2. Compulsory militia training with death as a punishment for failure to complete. (this will harden the population while also being eugenic)

3. Place strict automation limitation laws requiring permission to build replicators and other labor replacing machines. (this will create a big bureaucracy that will cause a soft ban on replicators, as people will be waiting for years to be able to get the permissions to build one)

4. Central regulation of holodecks and requirement of ID checks to lock out users who over-use them for recreation. (Limits the availability of circuses, requiring people to read a book or do something productive)

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cc931e No.20943

File: 99ab9b15950372b⋯.png (1.13 MB,3250x1700,65:34,51028ed005ba58ef041ad35345….png)

>AnCap autism in this thread

<imagine how UTTERLY HORRIBLE it would be to live in a post-scarcity society where everyone's needs are met!

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7fc48e No.20951

File: c0d252fe00674d9⋯.gif (193.43 KB,200x102,100:51,a_new_form_of_bait.gif)

>>20943

>imagine how UTTERLY HORRIBLE it would be to live in a post-scarcity society where everyone's needs are met!

Sup Gene?

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a79c96 No.20959

>>20943

Imagine living in a society which is so inconsistent its economics are impossible.

Is there money in the federation? Depends on the script. Are Human post-greed? Depends on the script. Why would anyone leave earth if it was paradise?

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b605de No.20960

>>20959

Paradise is pretty fucking boring

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399341 No.20968

>>20960

How would you know? Even with all material needs met, you and I both know that it is impossible for humans not to make up their own problems just for shit to do.

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810c98 No.20995

File: dc18990a84e2677⋯.jpg (68.09 KB,550x300,11:6,std fans.jpg)

>>20960

>>20968

I am searching for an image I once had saved where it was the Enterprise bridge crew sitting around on chairs completely overweight and bored out their minds with nothing to do. Basically it was a jibe on how utopia would be hell since you would have nothing really to do.

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1b45bc No.20996

>>20995

tbh there is no reason to be overweight in Star Trek. You would have no toxic food, and can replicate healthy, small meals multiple times a day. The reason people are fat is because they overeat two times a day and don't have time to cook. Basically everybody would be on a bodybuilder diet. The holodeck also allows you to directly engage in every sport right away that would usually require large amounts of preparation and money, like skiing or scubadiving.

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7fc48e No.20998

HookTube embed. Click on thumbnail to play.

>>20996

Also, I'm pretty sure that every replicator meal is "balanced" to ensure a healthy diet. So even if you're eating three bowls of replicated ice cream a day, the replicator fortifies it with all the essential vitamins, and provides the right amounts of carbs, protein, fat, etc.

I'm basing pretty much all of this on this one scene in TNG so I may be wrong.

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1b45bc No.21003

>>20998

I would have loved an episode about the Federations stance on drugs and intoxication. Surely there would be regulations in Star Fleet, but would the average Federation citizen be free to engage in drug consumption? Wouldn't in such a society a ban on drugs be seen as a "moral holdover" from the past?

Maybe they've managed to synthesize a drug that has the same effects as alcohol but doesn't share the same toxic effects?

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7fc48e No.21004

>>21003

>Maybe they've managed to synthesize a drug that has the same effects as alcohol but doesn't share the same toxic effects?

They have synthehol, although the Starfleet version of that prevents intoxication as well.

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1b45bc No.21006

>>21004

They kind of changed in the later installments. On Enterprise the alcohol was fake, and in First Contact we got this rather bad scene with Troi getting drunk for the first time or something.

But like so many things they can't keep things consistent. In DS9 people got drunk left and right.

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7fc48e No.21007

>>21006

First Contact Troi got real alcohol from Cochrane and his gang of hippies. DS9 gets a pass because it's technically not a Federation station, and Quark's is a private establishment, so he's free to serve real drinks if he so chooses.

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af9ead No.21009

>>20996

t. someone completely ignorant about bodybuilding chicken.

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894e0c No.21012

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>21009

Oh shit, bro. You're giving me flashbacks to BroScienceLife.

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efa94c No.21016

File: 1df09f74594ed3d⋯.jpg (114.1 KB,800x587,800:587,stop wekin start jerkin.jpg)

>>20449

>>20742

>you have an entire universe full of hydrogen atoms and replicators that can make literally anything using low power

Why the fuck would they need currency? Venezuela sucks ass because we live in a world of finite resources. Economics the study of how scarce resources and goods exchange hands, if you could make anything you wanted anytime you wanted there would be no need for a fiat based economy. They even made an entire episode about it in TNG (the one where those dudes get unfrozen from cryosleep).

We already see this kind of behavior playing out with the mega rich on current day earth, you think Bezos or Zucc really give a shit about a few million here or there? They can literally afford anything they want, yet they still strive for more power and influence. They're lives don't suddenly feel meaningless to them because they don't have to slave 40 hours at a shitty job. Plenty of people would love to rise through the ranks and command an entire starship and be known throughout the galaxy for eons as a great explorer or military officer without pay, especially if they're raised in a society where it's taught as a core life value. I guess ancient Sparta was an evil leftist-utopia too.

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1b45bc No.21017

>>21016

Money is just a tool for accounting purposes in regards to value. In a world where you need a) zero human labor to create a good and b) have infinite natural resources things have no value anymore, so why the fuck would you have money? Especially considering that so many moneyless societies already existed throughout history, like the Incas.

Certainly some valuable things still exist in Star Trek like rare minerals or pathways, such as wormholes, or advanced ancient technology that can't be reproduced. So it would make sense that trade between factions would be conducted in some form of archaic hard-currency like gold-pressed latinum, or, if there are no Ferengi arround, old-fashioned barter (I give you this for that). But within the factions there would no domestic currency.

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968221 No.21018

>>21016

And that is precisely my point. Even with basic material needs met human demand is not sated, and people will still desire goods and services, such as influence or reputation. And even if the market is based entirely on labor (which it isn't, as it's been established that some things are not replicable, and many people desire handmade equivalents of many replicable goods), with people performing technical jobs to increase reputation or personal enlightenment or whatever the fuck, you're going to need a standard of exchange. Even if we assume that replicators don't cost anything to operate, and produce every material need under the sun, there's still a need for currency. Because there are still a few resources that will always be scarce: time, reputation, favors owed, et cetera. Because people value their time, they won't for instance take a month long trip to a distant colony because it will marginally increase their reputation. And a well-known doctor will choose to go to the reputable symposium being held on Andoria Prime over some unknown convention being held for the first time on a backwater colony. These are only basic examples, there are many others which may be seen. But they show that scarcity still persists even within a fictional post-material world. And people will still need a way to numerate their asymmetrical demand for various services. Mises' knowledge problem (linked above) shows that no computer, no matter how powerful, can properly calculate this demand. It is inherently subjective, and can only be quantized through prices, i.e. through a standard of exchange. Theoretically, it's possible that a Star Trek economy could operate through barter–owing favors to one another, for instance, for services rendered. But this isn't very efficient, and discourages advanced transactions from occurring. If such a favor-based economy were to be implemented, most likely the favors would start taking the forms of IOUs, which would eventually be standardized in value, and traded freely with market actors. Thus, the favor/barter economy naturally evolves into a currency economy, with a standard of exchange based on the "favor/technical labor standard," similar in fashion to the way currency was once based on a gold standard.

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1b45bc No.21020

>>21018

>Mises' knowledge problem (linked above) shows that no computer, no matter how powerful, can properly calculate this demand. It is inherently subjective, and can only be quantized through prices, i.e. through a standard of exchange.

Modern corporations calculate consumer behavior based on stuff like heuristics all the time. But that's beside the point - Mises makes a fundamental error by presupposing a society which main incentive is the profit motive. In a society where barter is the dominant mode of exchange, profits don't exist. It is therefore irrelevant, how profitable something is, rather, how useful and productive something is. This is also how communities built and produced stuff for the vast amount of human history.

Most price deviations are neither the result of supply and demand (modern western economies overproduce everything) but result from the amount of labor going into the good. One of the few exceptions is branding, which is an artifical monopoly in itself. In Star Trek, brands doesn't seem to exist.

Also, unskilled labor doesn't seem to exist. So the only really valuable thing would be scarce products of skilled labor, which would be bartered, but the vast, vast majority of goods would be without value since labor doesn't go into goods anymore.

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9a32cd No.21021

>>21017

>a) zero human labor to create a good and b) have infinite natural resources things have no value anymore, so why the fuck would you have money?

That implies that everything can be made out of nothing and requiring next to 0 work and knowledge. Sure, all the basic shit in Maslow's hierarchy of needs are covered, but what if I want my own holodeck, my own ship or land on Earth to build a cabin where I could do all the gay shit I wanted? I can't replicate those and I can't save up on some money and buy it anymore. There's all the reason to have domestic currency but humanity is post-greed now so nobody cares about that, which is bullshit.

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af9ead No.21022

>>21020

>In a society where barter is the dominant mode of exchange, profits don't exist.

Of course it does, suppose you have 50 guns and no ammo, then you trade one of the guns for a box of ammo with a guy who has 50 boxes of ammo and no gun, you have both profited since the subjective value of the thing you gained is higher to you than the thing you lost. Also see one red paperclip.

>Most price deviations are neither the result of supply and demand (modern western economies overproduce everything) but result from the amount of labor going into the good.

You are fucking retarded. The amount of labor required to produce something is what affects supply. Labor itself is worthless if there is no demand for the good produced, if you spend 100 hours crafting a sandwich, it is still worth a fucking sandwich.

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1b45bc No.21030

File: 547319a913fbbd4⋯.jpg (93.4 KB,431x245,431:245,547319a913fbbd41f103f5ccef….jpg)

>>21021

>what if I want my own holodeck, my own ship or land on Earth to build a cabin where I could do all the gay shit I wanted?

Well, the cabin wouldn't be a material problem but rather a problem of regulation, since earth seems to be in very good shape in Star Trek, so there would be lots of regulations about subduing new land. Anyway, what you are talking about is very rare luxury stuff, I suppose a starship or a holodeck could be compared with a private yacht or a Lamborghini. These items make up a very small percentage of our economy. For the vast, vast majority of people, they will never be acquired. I don't see why this would require money for accounting purposes since you can easily distribute these very rare goods by merit. There is another problem with that - with all the common consumer goods and needs being fulfilled, how does one make "money" in the first place? You can't sell anything to people.

I don't understand what you mean post-greed because there have been plenty of moneyless societies in history that certainly weren't really "post-greed". I admit that there is apparently a black market for such things in the Federation (see Bones' attempt to buy a ship in TSFS), so maybe you can never truly get rid of such schemes but when the economy is not based on money there are some problems with the idea, because, you can't really acquire money. You'd need to encounter an alien race who still as an abstract means of exchange (which is why I said the Federation would still entertain foreign trade relations).

>>21022

>Of course it does, suppose you have 50 guns and no ammo, then you trade one of the guns for a box of ammo with a guy who has 50 boxes of ammo and no gun, you have both profited since the subjective value of the thing you gained is higher to you than the thing you lost

That's not a profit in the sense of the word, because you don't accumulate/reinvest it. That's just a subjective fulfillment of a need that can't be objectively measured. If I'm a diplomat and trade a plasma rifle for an universal translator I do not reinvest the universal translator, because it's supposed to satisfy a direct need. A peasant in the middle ages who trades 3 bushels of corn for a new plow does not use the plow to increase his capital stock via money (buying another acre). This means there would also not be the constant drive for quantitative growth but rather for intrinsic growth. The Federation never colonizes a planet so they can sell the minerals but rather to use the minerals.

>You are fucking retarded. The amount of labor required to produce something is what affects supply. Labor itself is worthless if there is no demand for the good produced, if you spend 100 hours crafting a sandwich, it is still worth a fucking sandwich.

That's the "mudpie" argument. People usually produce stuff that other people or oneself need. Also, we are talking in general terms here. If you need 100 hours to make a sandwich you'd be fucked because the average labor time for a sandwich is 10 minutes. If the average labor time for a sandwich would be 10 hours, it would be a 100 times more valuable. There are people who have investigated the money value created by certain industries in relation to its labor input and its almost a straight line. This is also why goods produced largely by automation are being dirt-cheap, while handmade stuff is usually more expensive. In a society with replicators, the value of most goods would revolve arround zero.

Federation, or at least Earth, is a communist society achieved peacefully through unparalleled amount of automatization and abundance - this is why Star Trek is ultimately left-liberal because the Marxist theory of communism evolved directly out of capitalism with a tax on labor and a distribution according to someone's work way before such sci-fi abundance can be achieved, which also requires a change in social relations. Despite being so left-liberal, it's less utopian than other sci-fi shows which still have pretty much contemporary capitalism in a society that has achieved abundance and all that. This obviously applies only to the Federation, it doesn't make sense for Klingon Empire to be this advanced but still basically having feudalism, but whatever, it's an alien culture so it can be different I guess.

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54a4da No.21031

>>21030

>In a society with replicators, the value of most goods would revolve arround zero.

The cost is in energy, which is still in the amount of effort to extract the energy. In the alternate timeline where the federation is getting its ass kicked by the klingons, they use rations instead of replicators because energy is so precious. They even keep the lights dim. Replicators are probably only practical for things that have warp cores. Picard’s brother has acres of vineyard.

The fact that the federation has lots of greedy people and asshole admirals implies that what is really happening is that Earth is a lot like Rome; it gets lots of resources from offworld which results in bread and circuses on earth and shitholes like Tasha Yar’s planet for Humans offworld.

I’d go so far to say a 24th century /leftypol/ post would say it isn’t real communism.

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7fc48e No.21032

>>21031

Nah, the 24th century /leftypol/ poster would claim that Earth is a bastion of real socialism but that the outlying colony shitholes were "corporatists" and therefore not real socialism.

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0d1934 No.21042

>>21030

>That's not a profit in the sense of the word, because you don't accumulate/reinvest it.

Ammo and weapons like any other good can be accumulated and reinvested.

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7da0bb No.21058

>>21042

Preferably for removing hasperat.

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737e43 No.21070

>>21030

>That's not a profit in the sense of the word, because you don't accumulate/reinvest it.

Sure it is, trade the gun you just got for two boxes of ammo with another guy, you've profited by one box of ammo. Why is it any different if the thing you are bartering is little pieces of paper with dead guys on it? You can barter your way from a paperclip to a house, are you gonna deny that is profit?

>If the average labor time for a sandwich would be 10 hours, it would be a 100 times more valuable.

No it wouldn't, because nobody would pay that for a sandwich, even in your fucked up commie dystopia with 100 minute hours.

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1b1fd6 No.21073

>>21030

>I don't see why this would require money for accounting purposes since you can easily distribute these very rare goods by merit.

That's an absolutely terrible idea. Do you really not see the problem with having a committee being able to decide who gets what and when? Fuck merit, it all becomes a question of who can suck up the most to those faggots or nepotism. It sounds a) Corrupt as fuck b) So buried in bureaucracy that having money would be 10x times more efficient.

>There is another problem with that - with all the common consumer goods and needs being fulfilled, how does one make "money" in the first place? You can't sell anything to people.

<There are rare goods which people can't afford

<Team of engineers produces [Luxury good 1]

<They also exchange [Luxury good 1] for more equipment designed to make [Luxury good 1] easier to produce

<The wheels of capitalism start rolling

<Obtain luxury goods for all the group via trade with off world feds/some other guys in Earth

Or you could've just had money in the first place and not have the engineers have to come up with a plan which includes where and with whom to team up, what item to produce, what to trade and who to trade with. Or suck some dicks from the committee of luxury goods. That's my problem with moneyless society, it's exactly the same corruption and problems without the practicality of currency.

>I admit that there is apparently a black market for such things in the Federation (see Bones' attempt to buy a ship in TSFS)

And that's because the moneyless society shit on a larger scale falls apart as soon as you realize the labor of some individuals is far more valuable than others, and so there will be inequality which if it were not because the people from the future "have surpassed greed and lust" it would create unhappiness in the losers of the world, who would probably start some shit because people are like that.

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be36da No.24947

File: 9271c43b9f325b3⋯.png (360.33 KB,900x532,225:133,Terran Empire.png)

>>20401

>Promote human supremacy, but guarantee the rights of non-human sapients

>Establish a monarchy, but retain a constitution and various branches for separation of power

>Rebrand ourselves as an empire for the street cred since all our neighbors are empires too (when in Rome after all)

>Increased militarism in Starfleet, as well as law enforcement within controlled territory

>Provide greater autonomy to all member worlds, allowing for total self-governance in domestic affairs but remaining subordinate in foreign affairs

>Amend Prime Directive to allow for interference in the case of factors not directly resulting from the actions of the native primitives, such as natural disasters and diseases (unless they are caused by the primitives, in which case they dug their grave so they better lie in it)

>Allow restricted and careful experimentation on Omega in sparsely populated regions of space

>Stop meddling in other peoples' shit unless it directly and negatively impacts us

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1896f0 No.25454

File: f6fec3d22026177⋯.jpeg (113.57 KB,1296x864,3:2,Megamouth_shark.jpeg)

The federation is like an abyssal filter feeder, it does not care about sacrificing parts of its self to make a good impression, after all what's a crew of hundreds to a world of billions, it's a slow creep it does reassuring you that you're in control here and that we can take things as slow as you like while moving ever closer to you until it's right next to you but you wont realize it is and you certainly wont mind it gently picking you up as it whispers it's sweet mantra in your ears why yes you're such a greater thing then I, I would love to be apart of the Federation.

it's got you.

your people are its.

your culture never truly gone but no one cares for it anymore.

what's it world? you're just federation planet number whatever now.

and you'll never be free but what's scary is you'll never want to be free.

this is why the federation is absolute evil.

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0bf5f6 No.25459

>>20401

Data—→Trash compactor

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789108 No.25700

>>20401

Destroy Earth

It's the true source of all problems with the Federation.

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