/strek/ - Star Trek

Submit to the Borg and be assimilated. Once everyone has been hooked up to the hivemind, there will be no more inequality, wars, misery, diseases, poverty and even bullying.

The borg can solve all our problems, we just have to realise that resistance is futile and submit so they can help us.

>>20421

t.drone.

Gradually replace all the humans with their mirror universe counterparts. Once the entire high command and commanding officers are in place purge Starfleet of alien influence, subjugate all the alien planets within the Federation, enslave their populations and rename it the Terran Empire.

>>20439

>replace star trek with degenerate edgelord star trek

>>20439

why do so many people have such a massive hard on for the empire? they were stuck up and decadent, and they lost their power for it and had to claw it back.

how do we fix the federation? easy, fewer ivory tower intellectuals, more pragmatists, more people with practical knowledge and experience. That will solve the problem of impractical technologies and designs, and their air of snobbery all in one.

Regular psyche evaluations on every member of Starfleet above Captain level.

Mandatory swoleness programs.

>>20449

Couldn't agree more anon, the lack of a economic currency is one of the reasons that living in the federation sounds like hell, as there is literally no objective value that can be placed on objects or actions. Even with replicators an economic system still makes sense, makes my blood boil thinking about the arm chair Marxists expositing about the glorious socialist federation, when it's clear the removal of currency created a massive vacuum for a militarised government to step into, hell the president of earth isn't even from earth…….. But then again I think that has very little to do with money.

>>20449

Autism is a powerful force, it seems. Also consider "earning your pay" is just a holdover analogy for doing a good job from a bygone era. And furthermore, modern economics has little bearing on a considerably more advanced future society.

Don't get so hung up on ideology.

>>20745

>And furthermore, modern economics has little bearing on a considerably more advanced future society.

Objectively false. The governing principle of praxeology is the Action Axiom: that individuals will always take purposeful action to minimize unease. This is and always will be true, replicators or no replicators, because human demand is an effectively insatiable force kind of like autism, and as such won't be removed simply because basic needs are met. Consider that, in first-world countries in the modern era, the principles of economics still apply with complete accuracy despite just about everyone having their basic needs yet. You will always need a free economic system to respond to demand, because even with a hypothetical computer of infinite capacity you cannot effectively measure the subjective nature of demand, only prices can do that. If you want more info on the necessity of a price system see pdfrelated, as I've already sperged enough and this thread isn't the best place for it anyways.

https://volafile.org/r/h6f22g38

What the fuck BO, why can't I post PDFs?

>>20747

I won't turn this into /pol/ thread so I'll leave you with this, human demand will always be a thing but a lot can happen in a few centuries aside from technology, shifts in ideology, what is considered acceptable and so on.

And lastly I think the point of the thread is to fix the federation while still being true to trek as opposed to turning the whole thing upside down

>>20748

>shifts in ideology, what is considered acceptable and so on.

I'd rather not turn this into a /pol/ thread either, so I'll just say that I consider to praxeology to be an a priori, theoretical discipline as opposed to ideology, and as such that its ideas will always be relevant on some scale.

>And lastly I think the point of the thread is to fix the federation while still being true to trek as opposed to turning the whole thing upside down

Fair enough. But honestly, I think it would be difficult to "fix" the Federation while also remaining true to Trek; the Federation being a socialist utopia on the surface, while in actuality being a carefully-managed Orwellian state that's only barely clinging to life because of S31 constantly putting out brushfires behind the scenes. Or, alternatively, the Federation being an incredibly idealistic utopia that looks like it should fall apart right away but manages to come out on top, thanks to the sheer optimism and competence of a select few heroes within Starfleet. It seems like it would be hard to "fix" this without drastically changing the setting, because the sheer level of broken is what provides a lot of the charm.

>>20415

Would it be possible to build a wall and make Vulcan pay for it?

Steps to fix the Federation:

1. Make more star bases and spread out the population so there are fewer big cities (this will cut down on the pozz)

2. Compulsory militia training with death as a punishment for failure to complete. (this will harden the population while also being eugenic)

3. Place strict automation limitation laws requiring permission to build replicators and other labor replacing machines. (this will create a big bureaucracy that will cause a soft ban on replicators, as people will be waiting for years to be able to get the permissions to build one)

4. Central regulation of holodecks and requirement of ID checks to lock out users who over-use them for recreation. (Limits the availability of circuses, requiring people to read a book or do something productive)

>>20943

Imagine living in a society which is so inconsistent its economics are impossible.

Is there money in the federation? Depends on the script. Are Human post-greed? Depends on the script. Why would anyone leave earth if it was paradise?

>>20959

Paradise is pretty fucking boring

>>20960

How would you know? Even with all material needs met, you and I both know that it is impossible for humans not to make up their own problems just for shit to do.

>>20995

tbh there is no reason to be overweight in Star Trek. You would have no toxic food, and can replicate healthy, small meals multiple times a day. The reason people are fat is because they overeat two times a day and don't have time to cook. Basically everybody would be on a bodybuilder diet. The holodeck also allows you to directly engage in every sport right away that would usually require large amounts of preparation and money, like skiing or scubadiving.

>>20996

Also, I'm pretty sure that every replicator meal is "balanced" to ensure a healthy diet. So even if you're eating three bowls of replicated ice cream a day, the replicator fortifies it with all the essential vitamins, and provides the right amounts of carbs, protein, fat, etc.

I'm basing pretty much all of this on this one scene in TNG so I may be wrong.

>>20998

I would have loved an episode about the Federations stance on drugs and intoxication. Surely there would be regulations in Star Fleet, but would the average Federation citizen be free to engage in drug consumption? Wouldn't in such a society a ban on drugs be seen as a "moral holdover" from the past?

Maybe they've managed to synthesize a drug that has the same effects as alcohol but doesn't share the same toxic effects?

>>21003

>Maybe they've managed to synthesize a drug that has the same effects as alcohol but doesn't share the same toxic effects?

They have synthehol, although the Starfleet version of that prevents intoxication as well.

>>21004

They kind of changed in the later installments. On Enterprise the alcohol was fake, and in First Contact we got this rather bad scene with Troi getting drunk for the first time or something.

But like so many things they can't keep things consistent. In DS9 people got drunk left and right.

>>21006

First Contact Troi got real alcohol from Cochrane and his gang of hippies. DS9 gets a pass because it's technically not a Federation station, and Quark's is a private establishment, so he's free to serve real drinks if he so chooses.

>>20996

t. someone completely ignorant about bodybuilding chicken.

>>21009

Oh shit, bro. You're giving me flashbacks to BroScienceLife.

>>21016

Money is just a tool for accounting purposes in regards to value. In a world where you need a) zero human labor to create a good and b) have infinite natural resources things have no value anymore, so why the fuck would you have money? Especially considering that so many moneyless societies already existed throughout history, like the Incas.

Certainly some valuable things still exist in Star Trek like rare minerals or pathways, such as wormholes, or advanced ancient technology that can't be reproduced. So it would make sense that trade between factions would be conducted in some form of archaic hard-currency like gold-pressed latinum, or, if there are no Ferengi arround, old-fashioned barter (I give you this for that). But within the factions there would no domestic currency.

>>21016

And that is precisely my point. Even with basic material needs met human demand is not sated, and people will still desire goods and services, such as influence or reputation. And even if the market is based entirely on labor (which it isn't, as it's been established that some things are not replicable, and many people desire handmade equivalents of many replicable goods), with people performing technical jobs to increase reputation or personal enlightenment or whatever the fuck, you're going to need a standard of exchange. Even if we assume that replicators don't cost anything to operate, and produce every material need under the sun, there's still a need for currency. Because there are still a few resources that will always be scarce: time, reputation, favors owed, et cetera. Because people value their time, they won't for instance take a month long trip to a distant colony because it will marginally increase their reputation. And a well-known doctor will choose to go to the reputable symposium being held on Andoria Prime over some unknown convention being held for the first time on a backwater colony. These are only basic examples, there are many others which may be seen. But they show that scarcity still persists even within a fictional post-material world. And people will still need a way to numerate their asymmetrical demand for various services. Mises' knowledge problem (linked above) shows that no computer, no matter how powerful, can properly calculate this demand. It is inherently subjective, and can only be quantized through prices, i.e. through a standard of exchange. Theoretically, it's possible that a Star Trek economy could operate through barter–owing favors to one another, for instance, for services rendered. But this isn't very efficient, and discourages advanced transactions from occurring. If such a favor-based economy were to be implemented, most likely the favors would start taking the forms of IOUs, which would eventually be standardized in value, and traded freely with market actors. Thus, the favor/barter economy naturally evolves into a currency economy, with a standard of exchange based on the "favor/technical labor standard," similar in fashion to the way currency was once based on a gold standard.

>>21018

>Mises' knowledge problem (linked above) shows that no computer, no matter how powerful, can properly calculate this demand. It is inherently subjective, and can only be quantized through prices, i.e. through a standard of exchange.

Modern corporations calculate consumer behavior based on stuff like heuristics all the time. But that's beside the point - Mises makes a fundamental error by presupposing a society which main incentive is the profit motive. In a society where barter is the dominant mode of exchange, profits don't exist. It is therefore irrelevant, how profitable something is, rather, how useful and productive something is. This is also how communities built and produced stuff for the vast amount of human history.

Most price deviations are neither the result of supply and demand (modern western economies overproduce everything) but result from the amount of labor going into the good. One of the few exceptions is branding, which is an artifical monopoly in itself. In Star Trek, brands doesn't seem to exist.

Also, unskilled labor doesn't seem to exist. So the only really valuable thing would be scarce products of skilled labor, which would be bartered, but the vast, vast majority of goods would be without value since labor doesn't go into goods anymore.

>>21017

>a) zero human labor to create a good and b) have infinite natural resources things have no value anymore, so why the fuck would you have money?

That implies that everything can be made out of nothing and requiring next to 0 work and knowledge. Sure, all the basic shit in Maslow's hierarchy of needs are covered, but what if I want my own holodeck, my own ship or land on Earth to build a cabin where I could do all the gay shit I wanted? I can't replicate those and I can't save up on some money and buy it anymore. There's all the reason to have domestic currency but humanity is post-greed now so nobody cares about that, which is bullshit.

>>21020

>In a society where barter is the dominant mode of exchange, profits don't exist.

Of course it does, suppose you have 50 guns and no ammo, then you trade one of the guns for a box of ammo with a guy who has 50 boxes of ammo and no gun, you have both profited since the subjective value of the thing you gained is higher to you than the thing you lost. Also see one red paperclip.

>Most price deviations are neither the result of supply and demand (modern western economies overproduce everything) but result from the amount of labor going into the good.

You are fucking retarded. The amount of labor required to produce something is what affects supply. Labor itself is worthless if there is no demand for the good produced, if you spend 100 hours crafting a sandwich, it is still worth a fucking sandwich.

>>21030

>In a society with replicators, the value of most goods would revolve arround zero.

The cost is in energy, which is still in the amount of effort to extract the energy. In the alternate timeline where the federation is getting its ass kicked by the klingons, they use rations instead of replicators because energy is so precious. They even keep the lights dim. Replicators are probably only practical for things that have warp cores. Picard’s brother has acres of vineyard.

The fact that the federation has lots of greedy people and asshole admirals implies that what is really happening is that Earth is a lot like Rome; it gets lots of resources from offworld which results in bread and circuses on earth and shitholes like Tasha Yar’s planet for Humans offworld.

I’d go so far to say a 24th century /leftypol/ post would say it isn’t real communism.

>>21031

Nah, the 24th century /leftypol/ poster would claim that Earth is a bastion of real socialism but that the outlying colony shitholes were "corporatists" and therefore not real socialism.

>>21030

>That's not a profit in the sense of the word, because you don't accumulate/reinvest it.

Ammo and weapons like any other good can be accumulated and reinvested.

>>21042

Preferably for removing hasperat.

>>21030

>That's not a profit in the sense of the word, because you don't accumulate/reinvest it.

Sure it is, trade the gun you just got for two boxes of ammo with another guy, you've profited by one box of ammo. Why is it any different if the thing you are bartering is little pieces of paper with dead guys on it? You can barter your way from a paperclip to a house, are you gonna deny that is profit?

>If the average labor time for a sandwich would be 10 hours, it would be a 100 times more valuable.

No it wouldn't, because nobody would pay that for a sandwich, even in your fucked up commie dystopia with 100 minute hours.

>>21030

>I don't see why this would require money for accounting purposes since you can easily distribute these very rare goods by merit.

That's an absolutely terrible idea. Do you really not see the problem with having a committee being able to decide who gets what and when? Fuck merit, it all becomes a question of who can suck up the most to those faggots or nepotism. It sounds a) Corrupt as fuck b) So buried in bureaucracy that having money would be 10x times more efficient.

>There is another problem with that - with all the common consumer goods and needs being fulfilled, how does one make "money" in the first place? You can't sell anything to people.

<There are rare goods which people can't afford

<Team of engineers produces [Luxury good 1]

<They also exchange [Luxury good 1] for more equipment designed to make [Luxury good 1] easier to produce

<The wheels of capitalism start rolling

<Obtain luxury goods for all the group via trade with off world feds/some other guys in Earth

Or you could've just had money in the first place and not have the engineers have to come up with a plan which includes where and with whom to team up, what item to produce, what to trade and who to trade with. Or suck some dicks from the committee of luxury goods. That's my problem with moneyless society, it's exactly the same corruption and problems without the practicality of currency.

>I admit that there is apparently a black market for such things in the Federation (see Bones' attempt to buy a ship in TSFS)

And that's because the moneyless society shit on a larger scale falls apart as soon as you realize the labor of some individuals is far more valuable than others, and so there will be inequality which if it were not because the people from the future "have surpassed greed and lust" it would create unhappiness in the losers of the world, who would probably start some shit because people are like that.

>>20401

Data—→Trash compactor

>>20401

Destroy Earth

It's the true source of all problems with the Federation.