a61705 No.12334 [Last50 Posts]
I want to get into a bit of Trek model-building. I've been looking around and it appears the most common scale commercially is 1:1000 with 1:1400 being seen a lot, too. I see a lot of 1400 ships that appear to be unavailable in 1:1000 scale so i'm looking hard at 1:1400. However, the Polar Lights 1:350 studio scale kits for Connie and Connie Refit look absolutely boss. They're just expensive as fuck (and that doesn't even include extras like lighting kits) - like $300 US. An additional cool thing about the 350's like the Polars is you can get a cheap Bird of Prey model in that same scale and have the classic film showdown in accurate size proportions for a marginal bit more time, effort, and cash. There is also 1:2500 scale mentioned on some forums but I haven't done enough reading to figure out what the significance is with something that small.
Another far-fetched idea I have in the back of my head is custom fabrication orders from China or 3D printing locally. It might be possible to group order or custom-make the various parts for Star Trek ships - bootleg style - and start our own kitbash club for way cheaper than the primo models. We could also do it in a more common scale like 1:1000 because a lot of people want quality models but not everybody wants them 3' long like the Polar Lights kits.
Also, miniatures and prop-replicas thread. Check the catalog for toys and merch thread.
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a61705 No.12335
The Polar Lights Constitution-class models. $300 and 3' long like a professional studio model. The lights seem bright in photos but supposedly you can manage them with a microcontroller so dimming and blinking shouldn't be an issue
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a525b1 No.12344
>>12335
That Connie on the right looks off.
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a61705 No.12346
>>12344
two sizes side-by-side and i think the photography makes the lighting look brighter than it probably is
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2e6cef No.16153
Does anyone happen to have any stuff on The Orville ship models?
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bc4044 No.16166
Every single time I watch the DS9 intro, I wonder if the station was made entirely in CGI, or if that was literally a giant, fully-lighted model some lucky bastard got to build.
Either way, I'd love to make one myself.
>A 1:1000 scale DS9 would be like five feet across
Really sure nobody is making 'em in that scale, but it would be pretty fucking boss. If I had to guess, commercially available kits are probably 1:5000. Would still make a neat table centerpiece.
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4aa7d5 No.16303
I wanted to get into build Star Trek models since I got into building Gunpla recently but I can't find any recent Cardassian ship model kits.
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c8f3bf No.16304
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bc4044 No.16327
>>16304
There goes my nofap attempt this month.
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df5732 No.16362
>>16303
>>16304
you can actually buy a DS9 kit. It's scaled-down much smaller than the studio model anon posted, but I'm fairly certain none but the most committed autist would be interested in a DS9 kit large enough to complement the common ship model kits. It might work with some gaming miniatures though. I'm not sure about actual Cardassian starship models.
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bc4044 No.16392
>>16362
There's one on Amazon for like $200. It says it's 1:2500 scale, which would make it a couple feet wide, depending which "size" of DS9 they're going off of.
If I ever strike it obscenely rich, I'm going to do autistic stuff like this. You know that guy who built an actual-size TIE-fighter in his backyard? I'll build a DS9 that is in scale to those 1:350 models. Fifteen goddamn feet across. The docking ring will be wide enough for small children to crawl through. Fuck yeah.
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30ad7e No.16413
>>16392
Then you could build some of the 1:350 ships and have them dock. It would be fun as shit.
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e92685 No.16439
>>16413
A lot of ships in Trek are actually roughly the same size or even bigger than DS9.
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bc4044 No.16453
>>16439
They could comfortably dock a Galaxy on one of the big docking pylons, so… yeah a Borg cube is bigger, but not much else.
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30ec58 No.16454
>>16453
Actually the Galaxy took up most of the upper docking ring to the point you couldn't get anyone else docked up there due to the space it takes up. A D'deridex for example I can't see how that could dock at all.
DS9 as a Starbase is actually very small if not tiny. Then again it was designed by Cardassians to make lazy Bajorans productive rather than service ships.
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57e7ea No.16455
>>16454
It only had a crew of 300 or so IIRC. As a station DS9's design makes a hell of a lot more sense than the decadent waste of materials that is Earth Spacedock, but I wish they'd managed to put the docking port on the outside of those "claws" as well as the inside, as that would make much more logistical sense. But that would damage the aesthetic they've got going with the station.
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57d163 No.16456
>>16455
Cardassian aesthetics are objectively superior.
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b8b13a No.16485
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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57e7ea No.16488
>>16456
Oh, don't take me wrong, I agree. I was merely bemoaning the difficulties involved with creating a more practical design while retaining those
A
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bc4044 No.16512
>>16455
Given that ships wouldn't be able to fit inside it's logically-sphere-shaped shields if they were on the outside, it actually makes perfect sense for the docking to be on the inside.
>>16485
It's always been one of the greatest curses of my life that the practical effects industry died completely just as soon as I reached adulthood.
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30ec58 No.16524
HookTube embed. Click on thumbnail to play.
>>16512
>It's always been one of the greatest curses of my life that the practical effects industry died completely just as soon as I reached adulthood.
That's what you think.
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b8b13a No.16557
>>16512
>It's always been one of the greatest curses of my life that the practical effects industry died completely just as soon as I reached adulthood.
Practical effects isn't a dead industry. If the people behind the camera care enough about what they do they'll use models. Seth MacFarlane wants pratical effects in his show when it's possible and CG when it's not. The people at ILM who did the effects for Rogue One (the movie is shit but the cinematography is great) went through the trouble of making 3D scans of every pieces of an old Star Destroyer model kit and the result is quite amazing.
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e374af No.16558
>>16557
Wish Peter Jackson relied more on practical effects.
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bc4044 No.16593
>>16524
>Designed it on a computer and then 3D printed it out
It's like making a sword using a CNC plasma torch on a sheet of steel, drawn out in autocad, rather than actually smithing it with hammer and anvil. Same end result, but a different process and HUGELY different skill set involved. It's still some guy on a computer doing everything, and the "hands-on" creation is non-existent.
So I suppose it's not fair to say that "practical effects" is dead. However, whether its physical or not, it's all being made by computer graphics designers. They aren't craftsmen; they're digital artists.
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57e7ea No.16605
>>16593
>sheet metal machete
>forged steel
>Same end result
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8a211a No.16614
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bc4044 No.16632
>>16605
It's less "wobbly piece of sheet metal" and more "1/2-inch slab of specially-alloyed tool steel" but yeah, they literally make swords that way. Just CNC a blank, refine and sharpen it on a grinding wheel, and the results are comparable to a forged sword while being a fuckton faster and cheaper. Go ahead and look it up on jewtube or wherever; I'm not making this up.
It's also how literally every knife you've ever used is made, in a factory. You think some chink kid is hand-making all those fucking cutco knives, one at a time? Don't be silly. Modern steel is a miraculous material, so the only reason to hand-forge ANYTHING is for style points.
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b389ed No.18215
Is there any model kits worth buying or templates good for making your own?
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8edde7 No.18262
>>18215
i was lurking starshipmodeler.net for awhile, but i'm still not 100% sure which i want to go with. My autist side wants to go straight to the 1:350 connie even though i dont have space to work or store it. My practical side wants to go with a 1:1000 just to practice since it's also smaller. A good compromise might be a cheaper 1:350 like the Bird of Prey kit since if i keep it, it will fit with the connie.
I know these sites do a lot of custom order mass buys for parts. Doing an Oberth with a variety of modular parts would be cool. Doing it in metal might be even cooler.
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30ad7e No.18266
>>16632
Cutco is proudly made in America.
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81b0a6 No.18267
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34fb5c No.18305
I've been trying to get into Star Trek modeling but there's seems to be no models aside from
>$100-$200 kits from the 80s
>tiny 5 piece, prepainted models
You'd think with the Star Trek fanbase there would be a large market for model building within it, yet everything is essential prebuilt or out of production for 50 years. What is this bullshit?
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6fb965 No.18307
>>18305
It's really bizarre. There is an absolute dearth of good-quality model kits for western science fiction. It wasn't until just a couple years ago that even Star Wars started getting models that aren't shit quality and don't cost an arm and a leg. I really wish a Jap company like Bandai or Hasegawa or Kotobukia could get a license to produce Trek kits. It would pretty much guarantee a huge step up in quality and a not-insignificant step down in price, compared to all the kits currently in production.
I've got the little Polar Lights 1/1000th scale TOS Enterprise, but I've been loathe to actually start work on it because the kit's engineering is pretty bad and it'll be a ton of extra work on top of the light conversions that I want to do.
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4ecbbc No.18312
>>18305
>>18307
People into both sci-fi and into building models rarely mix. Most people that build models are enthusiasts for cars, or military machines like tanks or planes. The only place it does cross over is in children, but that's a dying industry. Children don't build models anymore; they're too dumb and lazy.
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34fb5c No.18313
>>18312
>People into both sci-fi and into building models rarely mix
This is without a doubt the most fucking retarded thing on this board that has been posted in the last several months. Are you shitposting right now?
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f8b5e8 No.18321
>>18313
It's not really a question of whether or not he's shitposting, it's a question of whether or not he means to.
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225b8a No.18322
Post your models fags
This was my very first model I've ever built. I learned that if the box says not paint required, its lying through its non-existent teeth, and that glue/cement is a must to keep your models together.
She's rough but everyone has to start somewhere.
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225b8a No.18325
>>18322
Here's my TOS Enterprise. The Camera does a good job of covering up the screw ups in the paint, but I learned I need to use a real airbrush and not spray cans.
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225b8a No.18327
>>18325
And my Romulan Bird of Prey. This one was stupid easy to build. For the Anon looking into starting, I'd definitely look into this one. Comes in 6 pieces and its pretty easy to cover up mistakes. Hardest part was the bird on the bottom, it comes as one large decal. I had to cut the wings and the wing tips off, add the main body to the bottom of the hull, then decal the warp pylons, then finally add the wing tips to the nacelles. Biggest thing I learned here was, all models need primer paint on them.
I'll post more tomorrow when the sun is out. The lighting in my apartment sucks.
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f8729e No.18331
This is the only one of my models to survive into the present day. I built this USS Excelsior model when I was 13-14, so it's at least 20 years old now. All hand painted with no masking or much in the way of advanced prep. Some of the colors are wrong, per what was suggested in the instructions, as I didn't have the right ones on hand.
As you can see, the years haven't been kind to her. The decals have significantly yellowed with age, as has the general paint job of the ship. Still, I will continue to keep her safe and secure for many years to come.
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8edde7 No.18334
>>18307
would it really be that hard to have the parts custom manufactured in higher quality than we'ld get from a kit? A Connie is probably what? like a dozen pieces not including the lighting and if you omit the open shuttlebay
>>18331
thx for posting these. what scale are they?
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34fb5c No.18335
>>18334
>A Connie is probably what? like a dozen pieces not including the lighting and if you omit the open shuttlebay
A good model kit is certainly more than a dozen pieces. A kit shouldn't build itself. That's one of the current problems now is that there are tons of tiny model kits with like 3-8 pieces already prepainted and just little more than clip-in assembly pieces.
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f8729e No.18336
>>18334
This is the kit right here. I fondly remember looking at this box for weeks before I was able to buy it. 1994 AMT USS Excelsior kit, 1/1000 scale.
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6fb965 No.18340
>>18334
>would it really be that hard to have the parts custom manufactured in higher quality than we'ld get from a kit?
I think you're underestimating just how incredibly clean and crisp the molding is on models that have been coming out of Japan for the last decade or so. It's way beyond any 3d-printing/custom tooling available at the consumer level, as far as I'm aware. Also, like >>18335 implies, the number of parts isn't really the issue. The Polar Lights 1/1000th Connie is a pretty basic kit, and it's still got 20-something pieces in the finished model. The biggest issue is that the molding just isn't very good. The parts have a pretty rough fit in places (a problem that's practically unheard of in gunpla, for instance).
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8bbb95 No.18343
>>18336
I got an Enterprise C kit still waiting for me to do something with it, if only I had paint.
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74101e No.18347
>>18322
>>18325
>>18327
>>18331
>>18336
Holy fug these are good. I kind of want to make one now
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225b8a No.18355
>>18327
Its daylight out, hopefully the lighting and my shitty camera phone does well enough.
Here's my pre-decaled/pre-painted D7. Details are great but the model seams and the snap connectors suck. Had to glue several pieces together
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e4a1a2 No.18356
>>18340
truly, you've quickened my desire to know more about these Nip kits. All I have are the shit pleb-tier plastic models i built as a kid to go on, but this sounds vastly superior. It's also possible that model building per se isn't what i'm looking for, since miniature collecting/paintaing is also a related hobby and may be more suitable. Faggots collect those highly-detailed metal trucks and cars and shit. I wonder if something like that would be more appropriate…
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225b8a No.18357
>>18355
Next up is my Romulan D7. This has been my absolute favorite model to work on and decal. I said fuck decal instructions and painted it my own way.
I used a Tamiya Light Gray primer coat, then used Tamiya Light Blue (XF-23). Depending on the lighting and how close you are to the model, it looks slightly blue or a very light grey-green. I also painted all the "silver" pieces gold (Testors gold metalic flake) to make the grille pieces stand out more.
For the nacelle end caps and bridge I used Model Master Green Zink Chromate.
And finally for the deflector/photon/plasma torpedo (pic 05) tube I used Tamiya Light Green (XF-15)
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225b8a No.18358
>>18357
More detail on the warp pylons and nacelles.
I really should get a real camera, this shitty auto-focus sucks.
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225b8a No.18359
>>18358
These are my 1/2500 models that I've finished. With the Refit Enterprise and Reliant in the background. I haven't finished those two yet.
I think I prefer the 1/1000 size models, the 1/2500 minis have been a pain to get painted correctly and some of the decals are reallllly small
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225b8a No.18360
>>18359
And finally here's my family picture of my models, and the shelf they sit on.
I've also have three of the Diamond Select "Toys" I can provide pics of those later if you want.
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e4a1a2 No.18361
>>18359
>1:2500 are hard to work with
I wonder with a model that small if you could still wire it with fiber optics. The older ships didn't have that many windows anyway.
>>18360
that's a fantastic collection, but having disparate scale sizes on the same shelf would itch my 'tism something fierce…
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225b8a No.18362
>>18361
It'd be real pain because most of the 1/2500 come in 2-4 pieces, you'd need something like a micro drill to make room for the wires.
As for the shelf, I live in a one bedroom apartment, space is scarce.
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0a17a4 No.18366
>>18360
I'm the guy with the Excelsior above, and damn if you didn't do a great job on those. Very, very nice.
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e97d45 No.18369
>>18362
does anyone know how the 1:1000's and 1:1400 are generally assembled? would doing custom fiber optics be plausible on that scale? I've only ever seen fiber optics on 1:350 connies but a custom made galaxy class at that scale would be absurdly huge.
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402af9 No.18401
>>18369
Should build one 1:1
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87786b No.18416
>>18401
you won. Here, have a juan.
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4ecbbc No.18494
>>18313
>He thinks his own anectdotal experience means more than jack shit
Okay, buddy. I'm sorry. Every human being alive is just like you; my mistake.
But if you manage to remove your head from your own ass, ask yourself this: if I'm wrong, how come every hobby shop (back when they existed, anyway) were crammed with models of ships, planes, tanks, cars, trains, etc., but hardly anything sci-fi? If there was such a huge demand, why was no company producing those models?
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34fb5c No.18497
>>18494
>anecdotal
Are you being serious nigga?
The fuck you think gunpla is? That's multi-billion dollar a year business. And that's globally too.
>how come every hobby shop were crammed with models of ships, planes, tanks, cars, trains, etc., but hardly anything sci-fi?
Oh so now anecdotal evidence is okay? I guess if it's made up bullshit about shit you don't understand in the slightest then I guess it's good enough?
You. Dense. Fucking. Retard.
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ee0d08 No.18522
>>18312
>People into both sci-fi and into building models rarely mix.
>how come every hobby shop (back when they existed, anyway) were crammed with models of ships, planes, tanks, cars, trains, etc., but hardly anything sci-fi?
This perception is likely more a function of different group cultures and generational differences than anything about model building itself. I don't think it says anything about how sci-fi fans or "geeks" feel towards the hobby. There's also a lot of natural crossover among sci-fi model-building and related niche scenes like gaming miniatures. This might further act to keep sci-fi model builders more within the sphere of other social meetups and retail categories like comics, video games, "movie memorabilia", etc.
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ae7378 No.18528
>>18313
>picture of dukat
<goonspeak caption
Like I asked you in the other thread: How do you people even find this site?
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34fb5c No.18539
>>18528
You're trying way to hard buddy.
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ae7378 No.18540
>>18539
Well, that confirms it.
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445a69 No.18565
>Glorious ship model autism devolving to bitching teen girls having a slap fight
STOP IT!
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4ecbbc No.18798
>>18497
>Gundam
>Sci-fi
Get out.
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479050 No.18804
>>18798
Soft sci-fi is still sci-fi.
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8a211a No.18805
>>18798
>>18804
Gundam is clearly autism
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961491 No.18839
>>18798
>Gundam isn't sci-fiction
>giant mecha
>lasers
>space battleships
>psychics
I know you haven't got a leg to stand on in this argument, and you're trying desperately not to think of how wrong and hypocritical you are over the accusations of anecdotal evidence while pull that exact shit for real out of your own ass, but that's not excuse to be such a giant fucking retard, Anon. Well at least you've proven you're wrong and you can't defend your own wrong opinions. Because they're so wrong.
What a loser. A wrong loser.
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7d6580 No.18942
Speaking of Gundam why aren't there any Mechs in Star Trek? Even shit like the loaders from Ayyliens?
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961491 No.19007
>>18942
Budget.
Also they don't need them when the average grunt has a weapon that can destroy a skyscraper.
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b02baf No.19008
>>18942
If they did, it would have been a power rangers: the movie tier CG abomination.
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8d06b4 No.19009
>>18805
All anime is, but mainly because of how hypersensitive and emotionally frail all fans of it are. Their behavior is the same as furries, but without
I tried to think for 10 minutes of an exception, and nothing came up. Anime fans are equal in faggotry to furries, no exception.
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b02baf No.19012
>>19009
Don't try to drag anime fans down to your level, furfag.
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4132a1 No.19016
>>19009
>>19012
He doesn't even complete his first sentence.
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398852 No.19023
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b02baf No.19028
>>19023
Read his next sentence to understand his rhetorical technique.
He's still wrong, though.
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76436a No.19043
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4ecbbc No.19478
>>18839
Anime isn't sci-fi. Completely different fanbase. You cannot deny this.
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67df98 No.19484
>>19478
>what is Mobile Suit Gundam and its many derivatives
>what is Legend of Galactic Heroes
>what is Gargantia
Nigga, a lot of Japanese cartoons ain't sci-fi, but a good chunk of them are. It's like a bunch of live action crap isn't sci-fi, but you bet your ass Star Trek took off in it.
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f8b5e8 No.19490
>>19484
>Doesn't even mention GitS
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426bf8 No.19493
>>19478
Go be a retard elsewhere.
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e236fb No.19495
>>19484
>what is Mobile Suit Gundam and its many derivatives
>what is Legend of Galactic Heroes
>what is Gargantia
Magic with a chrome finish.
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078a8b No.19498
>>19495
>I go by hard sci fi definitions
>On a star trek board
Anon, I…
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b02baf No.19503
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>19495
>Magic with a chrome finish.
Which is otherwise known as soft sci-fi, of which Star Trek is a major example.
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25cbf5 No.19597
Since this thread has devolved from glorious ship model autism to sad shitposting about anime I will ask this, why doesn't the Federation have Gundams?
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4ecbbc No.19712
>>19484
Still a different fanbase. That was the entire point. Gundam models existing doesn't mean OTHER sci-fi models were demand. As a matter of plain fact, they were not! The entire point of this fucking argument was to explain why there were never that many model kits for live-action sci-fi series. Trying to counter this by saying that there were anime model kits (whether those anime had sci-fi elements or not) proves nothing. You're attempting to argue with ME instead of with the central premise, and trying to argue against a reality that was already proven (that sci-fi model kits were rare). That is why you failed.
>>19597
Because the human figure isn't maximally efficient for anything, so there's zero sense making a robot that has the shape of one except as a gimmick. Why do you think literally every actual military robot is shaped like a tank? Probably so it doesn't fall on its ass all the time.
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f8a690 No.19740
>>19712
You could make an argument for using humanoid robots in situations where it's necessary to frequently interact with objects and designs designed to be used by humans. Designing a squat, wheeled/tracked robot that can also use doorknobs, smoothly go up and down stairs, operate keyboards, and any other tasked designed for humanoid bodies would end up being more complicated than just designing a humanoid body.
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763273 No.19850
Just imagine there will be a resurgence in ship models someday but it will somehow be corrupted full of pozz probably by suggesting how a starship is objectived and does not need no man to command her. I am not picturing the Enterprise in a pink frilly frock. Send help.
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4ecbbc No.19891
>>19740
Well, though this may be true, those would still just be human-sized robots (and there wouldn't be any benefit to being confined to that shape; going up stairs would be easier if it had spider legs; manipulating objects would be easier if it had ten fingers on each upper limb and four upper limbs; why only have two eyes when you can put sensors all around and give it 360-degree vision at all times), and not "mecha" which are much larger.
>>19850
The Enterprise computer is smart enough to go out accomplishing missions on her own. She don't need no man, but is perfectly happy wearing grey metal, thank you very much.
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f78b91 No.19937
>>19712
>so there's zero sense making a robot that has the shape of one except as a gimmick
What about sexbots?
>>19740
I have come to the conclusion that the lack of robots in Star Trek is that it is not lack of show budget, but fear of robot uprising due to their experiences int he 23rd century. Without a Kirk to dick them to oblivion the risk is too great.
>>19891
>The Enterprise computer is smart enough to go out accomplishing missions on her own. She don't need no man, but is perfectly happy wearing grey metal, thank you very much.
I honestly spilled my spaghetti over this. Nice job anon.
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ba3a3d No.20363
Does anyone know if The Orville is getting a model kit anytime soon?
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ac7b3a No.28656
Oberth Class? More like COVERED IN SINK MARKS CLASS holy shit Polar Lights how are you still in business? If I didn't know that this kit was released just last year I would totally be willing to believe that it was one of the notoriously shoddy AMT/ERTL kits from the 90s. It took 5 or 6 thick, sloppy layers of liquid putty to fill the sink marks on the flat pallet section of the hull. This shit is unacceptable for a plastic injection kit released in CY+3.
I've even built a few Polar Lights kits in the past and none of them were particularly good, so I thought I knew what I was getting into, but this kit really is some amateur-hour stuff on the engineering side. If I didn't already have a fair bit of experience with how to fix these kinds of problems, I would be absolutely seething about this kit's quality. It's this kind of low-effort trash that can make a really bad first impression on newcomers to the world of model building.
The fact that I really want one of these cuties on my desk is the only reason I'm pushing forward with it. Had I known about all the problems with this kit before picking it up, I would've just bought one of those fucking Eaglemoss pre-finished models and done some touch-ups on it. Would've cost about the same and saved me all this hassle.
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1a4e04 No.28660
>>28656
That's a Polar Lights? It looks tiny. What scale is it? I wanna know what to avoid
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4457e1 No.28663
>>28656
What are sink marks? I've never made a model, but I'm interested.
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ac7b3a No.28665
>>28660
It's 1/1000 scale, and is a little under 5 inches long (similar size to the Eaglemoss Oberth in your photo, I think?). It comes as part of a 2-pack with a Klingon Bird of Prey.
I'm pretty salty because the BoP seems to have received a lot more attention than the Oberth in its engineering and detailing. It's still got its share of blunders, though.
Also
>That itty bitty Micro Machines Oberth
I've got one of those floating around my home somewhere. Every time I stumble over a few of my old Micro Machines, I'm disappointed when none of them are the USS Grissom.
>>28663
Sink marks occur where plastic is molded relatively thick. The plastic contracts and "sinks" inward as it cools. Basically all of the gray patches in the WIP photo I posted (except for on the under-slung sensor pod) are areas where I had to fill visible depressions/sink marks. They molded the pallet section of the hull as a single thick piece, and so most of its flat surfaces had visible deformation.
Sink marks are a common thing in injection-molded plastic kits, but in a competently-engineered kit they're so small and shallow that they're practically imperceptible.
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ac7b3a No.28750
Apologies for the double-post.
I've just about got the Oberth to the point that I can start priming and painting. Just wanted to show off the detail that I added to the back of the pallet section of the hull. Because of how the kit was engineered, this area was molded flat and featureless, and a decal was supplied to represent these details.
A word for anyone who aspires to take model-building seriously as a hobby: this is why it's worthwhile to learn some basic scratchbuilding/fabrication techniques. These kinds of tiny details are often what take a model to the proverbial "next level" and in the case of a model as simple as this Oberth kit, it can make the difference between the model looking like a toy, or looking like a proper scale replica.
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9fb3b9 No.28758
>Oberth Collection
Anyone think this is like having a loli collection that FBI are going to bust down your door any minute for?
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88a79f No.32900
>>28758
They're like a century old, wouldn't that make them more like age-shrunken GILFs?
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