/qresearch/ - Q Research

DALE SMITH.

SENATOR MARINO: Having been first duty sworn by the chairman of the committee, testified as follows:

SENATOR MARINO: Mr. McKenna will now question you.

MR.McKENNA: Mr. Smith, in 1977, did you work for the Select Committee on Crime as an Investigator?

MR. SMITH: Yes. I worked as a staff investigator, research analyst in 1977 and ’78.

MR.McKENNA: Can you tell us what your area of investigation was?

MR. SMITH: Our area was juvenile prostitution and pornography in New York.

MR.McKENNA: In 1977, did you assist the New York City Police Department in making an arrest of a juvenile call service operator?

MR. SMITH: In 1977?

MR.McKENNA: Or ’78.

MR. SMITH: Yes.

MR.McKENNA: Do you remember his name?

MR. SMITH: It was Paul Abrams.

MR.McKENNA: Can you tell us what he did?

MR. SMITH: Mr. Abrams was running a call service that was being operated from a – from the West Side of New York.

MR.McKENNA: And the call service was for male prostitution?

MR. SMITH: For male prostitution.

MR.McKENNA: And did Mr.Abrams use children in that service?

--–

Pic Taken from:

https://www.behindthepinecurtain.com/wordpress/organized-pedophilia-and-the-criminal-exploitation-of-children/

Other links of interest:

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/01/archives/3-arrested-in-raid-on-alleged-male-prostitution-ring.html

MR. SMITH: Yes, he did.

MR.McKENNA: And Mr.Abrams was arrested?

MR. SMITH: Mr.Abrams was arrested.

MR.McKENNA: Do you know what the disposition of the case was?

MR. SMITH: Yes. He was - - he pledged guilty and received probation.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: What was the charge? What was the charge?

MR. SMITH: Prostitution.

MR.McKENNA: Prostitution is a felony, and promoting prostitution.

After this period of time with the committee, did you leave New York?

MR. SMITH: I had worked with the Policy Sciences Center.

MR.McKENNA: That was an investigation on organized crime?

MR. SMITH: Yes. It was, under Dr. Rubenstein, and then I left for Washington.

MR.McKENNA: Did you return to New York City in early 1982?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I did.

MR.McKENNA: Can you tell us what the purpose was when you came to New York City this year?

MR. SMITH: Yes. I was employed by the Committee, again as a staff investigator, to update the material developed during the 1977-78 investigation on child prostitution and pornography.

MR.McKENNA: Did you go back to look at the child prostitution operations you had observed in the previous years?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I did.

MR.McKENNA: Can you tell us what you saw and where?

MR. SMITH: Certainly. I had made a survey of all the locations that we had targeted in the 1977-78 investigation. I’d also visited places that had opened since the ’78 investigation, including a bar on the Upper East Side by the name of Dallas and the Follies Theater.

MR. SMITH: Certainly. The call service - - the calls would come in to another location, and from sources in the bar that were working. Some of the juveniles were talking.

The calls would be called into the bar. The boys would be waiting at the bar for their pickups; and a limousine was sighted, picking up the children and taking them to calls.

MR. SMITH: What did you observe at the Follies Theater?

MR. SMITH: The Follies Theater, there were live sex shows, involving underage kids. The performers in the live sex shows were available for prostitution before, in between, and after the performances. Interviewing some of the performers and some of the patrons, there were reports that child porno films were being filmed in the Follies Theater. These reports were similar to the ones that have circulated around that operation - - around a - - the operation in Washinton.

MR.McKENNA: Do you remember who it was or did you - - were you able to determine who it was that was runing or managing or operationg the Follies Theater?

MR. SMITH: It was Mr.William Oates.

MR.McKENNA: Did he have any operations going in Washington?

MR. SMITH: Mr. Oates had a theater operation, the Cinema Follies, in Washington; and he had an operation in Pittsbutgh, Pennsylvania, The Best Of Both Worlds.

MR.McKENNA: That was the name in Pittsburgh?

MR. SMITH: Yes. And all three of the operations were pornographic film and burlesque houses, involving live stage performances by dancers who were also prostitutes. Some of the boys, not a lof them but some of them, were underage.

Now, with this operation, one of the things that was uncovered is a circuit where the kids are transported from, by Oates’ operation between Florida - - I mean, between New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania.

-

I found that document while digging for Oates.

They would work, let’s say, two or three weeks, whatever, in Washington and go from Washington to New York from New York - - they’ll work a few weeks in New York, then they’ll be transported to Pennsylvania - - or to Pittsburgh, yes.

MR.McKENNA: Were you ever invited to participate in any child pornographic films while you were in New York?

MR. SMITH: No.

MR.McKENNA: Was there any other place you visited in yout investigation earlier this year that appeared to be involved with child prostitution area?

MR. SMITH: Yes, quite a few.

MR.McKENNA: Is there a bar called The Haymarket?

MR. SMITH: The Haymarket Bar, yes.

MR.McKENNA: What would you observe at the Haymarket?

MR. SMITH: The Haymarket Bar is probably- -

MR.McKENNA: Well, first of all, it’s located on Eight Avenue?

MR. SMITH: It’s located on Eight Avenue.

MR.McKENNA: Approximately 47th Street and 48th Street?

MR. SMITH: Between 47th and 45th.

MR.McKENNA: What have you observed in the Haymarket?

MR. SMITH: Basically. It’s a male prostitution bar. There are many underaged youths there. One of the things that was observed at the Haymarket is a procurer. A very well-known New York procurer was working behind the bar. This person has been known to the Committee for a number of years as providing underage boys to the pornography and prostitution industry.

MR.McKENNA: And were boys working in the bar? I mean - -

MR. SMITH: The boys were working at the bar, right.

---

Links related to Haymarket:

https://www.advocate.com/books/2018/2/12/martin-duberman-nyc-hustler-bars-and-jack-kerouacs-sex-life

https://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/when-libido-ran-wild/

https://www.papermag.com/10-sleazy-gay-places-from-nycs-glory-days-1427524835.html

MR.McKENNA: By working, I mean they were soliciting costumers.

MR. SMITH: They were soliciting.

MR.McKENNA: Did there come a time this year when you went to Florida?

MR. SMITH: Yes. I was on assignment in Fort Lauderdale on a project, on a project involving juvenile prostitution.

MR.McKENNA: And did the Florida investigation revel contacts back to New York?

MR. SMITH: Yes, it did.

MR.McKENNA: Can you just tel us what those connections were?

MR. SMITH: The targets in Florida were - - there was a hotel in Florida, in Fort Lauderdale that - -

SENATOR MARINO: Can you keep your voice up, please?

MR. SMITH: There was a hotel in Fort Lauderdale that we hace received reports in ’77 and ’78 concerning posible connections into organized crime in New York and also connected with the juvenile pornography and prostitution industry.

There is also a publishing - - a magazine that was being published in South Florida that was reported to be controlled by organized crime; that also had ties to New York.

MR.McKENNA: This was developed from interviews of the people who were involved in the operation?

MR. SMITH: Yes, it was.

MR.McKENNA: Some of them were juveniles?

MR. SMITH: Some of them were juveniles.

MR.McKENNA: What magazine was involved in these operations?

MR. SMITH: The magazine involved was Blue Boy. The hotel involved there was the Marlin Beach Hotel.

MR.McKENNA: Can you give us an idea about how many boys were involved?

MR. SMITH: Yes.

The project there, we interviewed underaged boys in all three bars of this hotel resort. Some of the boys interviewed were working for call services. They admitted to having been sent to New York and to Washington on calls that had originated in South Florida.

Q. Did there come a time when you were contacted by the Arlington police in Virginia to assist them in an investigation of organized male prostitution rings?

MR. SMITH: Yes. In june, I was contacted by Detective Chapman of the Arlington Police Department on recommendation of Detective Shoffler.

MR.McKENNA: Can you tell us the names of the operations concerning which your assistance was asked?

MR. SMITH: They were two male call services in Washington known as the Friendly Models and the Stables.

MR.McKENNA: And as a result of your assistance to the Arlington Police, did something happen?

---

Friendly Models link:

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/5594354/dc-gay-escorts/

MR. SMITH: Friendly Models had already been raided, and the client list and everything had been seized by the police department. Very complete records were taken. As a result of my cooperation with the Arlington Police Department, they were able to obtain a warrant for the search and arrest of the Stables operation in Washington.

MR.McKENNA: What was the Stables operation?

MR. SMITH: The Stables operation was a male homosexual call service that from reports over the past three years appears to have been a final product of at least one local call service and two NewYork call services. The New York call services - - in fact, I will have to go back a number of years there. In ’76, 1976, there were two call services from New York that opened operations in Washington. These call services were operated out of New York. Now, around 1978, call services merged, and - - these call services merged and then merged again into an operation that was already in existence called the Stables.

-—

Related Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1982/08/04/state-department-checks-alleged-gay-client-lists/cc7b3a1f-4749-473f-959b-8fa1ca15ef1f/

MR.McKENNA: Did you have occasion to get close to a principal involved in the Stables enough to talk to him about those operations?

MR. SMITH: Through an investigation I worked on in Washington, I was able to go in under cover and interview the owner, one of the owners of the Stables’ call services.

MR.McKENNA: Did he tell you anything that surprised you concerning their operation?

MR. SMITH: Basically, this individual confirmed several vital places of information that I had received from other sources. He had also added that a lot of the money from the call service was being reinvested into real estates in the Washington area.

MR.McKENNA: Did he discuss with you any sidelines that had become very profitable?

MR. SMITH: The operator of this service, no.

MR.McKENNA: Did you ever have a occasion to talk to a Mr.Koehler?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I did.

MR.McKENNA: And what was his function in these operations?

MR. SMITH: Mr. Robert Koehler is the accountant for several years of several call service operations in Washington.

MR.McKENNA: Did he discuss with you the profitability of these operations?

MR. SMITH: Yes, he did.

MR.McKENNA: Did he tell you they were they making profits besided call service itself?

MR. SMITH: Yes, they were.

MR.McKENNA: How were they doing that?

MR. SMITH: Through the sale of information on the sexual proclivities of the clients to agents of foreing intelligence services.

>I havent found anything about Koehler besides this hearing.

MR.McKENNA: Were there any other call service operators you were able to interview?

MR. SMITH: Yes, there was.

MR.McKENNA: Do you remember what his name or their names were?

MR. SMITH: One call service operator in Alexandria, Virginia, by the name of Johnathon Christopher Reynolds, III.

MR.McKENNA: And what was the name of his call service?

MR. SMITH: It was Brian’s Boys and Fantasies Unlimited.

MR.McKENNA: And was he also selling information out of the call services?

MR. SMITH: He stated so.

MR.McKENNA: Did he say who he was selling them to?

MR. SMITH: To British and Israeli intelligence.

MR.McKENNA: Did you have occasion to investigate in Washington a person by the name of William Oates?

>Now, about of Johnathon Christopher Reynolds, III, or “Johnathan Christopher Reynolds, III.” In the next post.

Johnathon Christopher Reynolds, III married Stewart Gordon, you can check his page.

The full name of his husband, the one accused to selling information to intelligence agencies is abreviated and some details were erased.

This was after the FOIA was released.

http://www.stewartgordon.com/

https://web.archive.org/web/20180223022825/http://www.stewartgordon.com/

MR. SMITH: Yes, I have.

MR.McKENNA: Did he have any operations going in Washington?

MR. SMITH: The Cinema Follies.

MR.McKENNA: And can you just describe to us what the Cinema Follies was in Washington?

MR. SMITH: The Cinema Follies was a male homosexual pornographic film and burlesque house that involved live stage shows with boys, some of whom were underage. The boys working for the - - for Mr.Oates were also male prostitutes available before, between, and after the shows.

MR.McKENNA: Did any of those boys discuss being involved in child pornographic movies?

MR. SMITH: Yes, they did.

MR.McKENNA: Did you ever develop information as to what was done with those movies?

MR. SMITH: Yes.

At one time, sources indicated that Mr.Oates had been involved with operations in California; however, at the time of the spring investigation of this committee, at first it appeared that he had not any involvements with California pornography; but after interviewing employees for Mr. Oates, and some of the male prostitutes who had worked in these films that were being filmed in Manhattan, it appeared that Mr.Oates was in fact, still associated with these California organizations.

MR.McKENNA: Did you even develop information as to any other intelligence services that were buying information, foreing intelligence services?

MR. SMITH: Yes.

MR.McKENNA: Which one was that?

MR. SMITH: The Soviet Military Intelligence was named as one the agencies or the foreing intelligence services that was purchasing information from the call services in Washington.

MR.McKENNA: Did you ever more or less confirm that on your own?

MR. SMITH: I don’t know wheter I had confirmed it to the satisfaction of the committee or not.

MR.McKENNA: Were you satisfied?

MR. SMITH: I was satisfied

MR.McKENNA: Were you debriefed by somebody who you thought was a foreing intelligence officer?

MR. SMITH: No, I was not personally – I – I — I was not personally debriefed by a foreing intelligence officer.

MR.McKENNA: Were you questioned?

MR. SMITH: I have had contacts with foreing intelligence officers.

MR.McKENNA When you were in New York, back to New York City, did you have occasion to purchase any magazines that seemed to be involved for soliciting or promoting juvenile prostitution?

MR. SMITH: Yes. A number of magazines were purchased for the Committee. One of the publications that we had looked at was Star Magazine from Washington, and it appeared to be homosexual contact sheet for- - with nationwide distribution.

MR.McKENNA: Did you ever see a magazine or purchase in New York a magazine named Laddie?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I did.

MR.McKENNA: And can you just describe what the function of Laddie was?

MR. SMITH: Laddie appeared to be a publication primarily oriented to underage kids. I mean, primarily oriented to pederism.

MR.McKENNA: That is printed and distributed out of New York?

MR. SMITH: Yes, it is.

MR.McKENNA: When you were also with the committee, were you able to purchase child pornography in the Times Square area back in ’77-’78?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I was.

MR.McKENNA: And since then, it’s more difficult when you tried in 1982?

--

>Now, about the “Laddie” magazine.

have found two examples and that’s that.

https://www.biblio.com/book/laddie-vol-5-2/d/741356999

https://www.bolerium.com/pages/books/189890/laddie-vol-7-no-3

The editorial is called “Ramit Dist, New York” and those magazines are the only place I have seen that name. Perhaps I’m missing something

MR. SMITH: It was more difficult, but it was available.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: By being more difficult, do you mean the price had gone up?

MR. SMITH: Uh, no, sir. The - - at the time that - - In 77’ and ’78, it was very easy to go out and purchase juvenile porn’ from just about anywhere along 42nd Street. As - - when I came back in January and February of this year, it appeared to be a matter of knowing the right people. There were people, patrons of bars and clubs in New York that are oriented to pederast that vouch that the trade still exists. The can, you know, purchase.

MR.McKENNA: But you had to be known.

MR. SMITH: Yes, you had to be known.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Can you account for the change?

MR. SMITH: I don’t think I can.

MR.McKENNA: In between he passed the law.

SENATOR MARINO: It had nothing to do with the bill I passed or the law that existed at the time.

MR. SMITH: Senator, I have been out of New York for about two years.

MR.McKENNA: I was going to suggest we take a few minutes break before we start.

SENATOR MARINO: Five minute break, please.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

SENATOR MARINO: Mr.Smith, would you return please.

Senator Bernstein has some questions for you.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Mr. Smith- -

MR. SMITH: Yes.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: - - let’s go back to the Dallas bar. Is that still open, do you know?

MR. SMITH: To my knowledge, it is.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: You observed that bar; is that correct?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: For how long a period of time?

MR. SMITH: The bar was observed for two months on a regular basis. That means about every other or every third night.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: And you observed a pattern of these young kids in the bar?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, looking at these young kids without knowing anything, could you ascertain or guess their approximate ages?

MR. SMITH: Yes. I would guess their ages between 13 and 16.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: And on an average, how many kids were in the bar?

MR. SMITH: It varied. On a weekend night, there might be as many as 50, 75

-–

>I haven’t found any information related to the Dallas bar, the name is to common for search engines.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Were they drinking?

MR. SMITH: Uh, not only drinking. They where drinking; however, in the back room of the Dallas bar, there was open drug usage.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Who had access to the back room?

MR. SMITH: Anyone who went into the bar. It was not an area that was privy to just a few people. It was open to the public.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Did you have access?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I had free access.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Did you go to the back room?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: And you observed drug usage?

MR. SMITH: Yes. It was a- -

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Was it sales of drugs or just usage?

MR. SMITH: I observed sales of drugs as well. This area was basically a lounge that you would have- - people would go to and from the back room to smoke marijuana, to purchase cocaine or amphetamines.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: And there was open usage?

MR. SMITH: There was open usage.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Do you know if anyone ever reported this to the State Liquor Authority?

MR. SMITH: Not to my knowledge, but I didn’t look into that matter. This was Mr.McKenna’s - -

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: No, I just wondered if you knew if anyone ever reported this to the State Liquor Authority, and your answer is, “No.”

MR. SMITH: No.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Did you ever at any time in the course of your observations notice any police on the premises?

MR. SMITH: No, I didn’t, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Would you say that the use of the youngsters there or the frequenting of youngsters of that bat was common notorious knowledge?

MR. SMITH: Yes, it was. In fact, in nationally distributed homosexual gay guides, it’s listed as a – specifically, as a bar for underage kids.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Did it have a liquor license?

MR. SMITH: I believe so.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: And you observed bartenders or those behind the bars selling alcoholic beverages to these youngsters?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I did; but in more cases, they would sell the alcoholic beverages to adult patrons who would buy the drinks for the boys. The boys served two purposes, not only for prostitution, for prostituting themselves in the bar and drawing in costumers, but also they generated more of a bar business requiring the potential clients to buy them drinks.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: If I understood you correctly, on the call system for kids at the bar, someone desiring a youngster would call a certain telephone number which was away from the bar. Is that correct?

MR. SMITH: It appeared so, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: That particular telephone number would then telephone the bar?

MR. SMITH: Right. I had made contact with a call boy who has worked - - who had worked previously in Washington for Friendly Models, has been a source for me there, and he had introduced me to boys working for call service at Dallas bar, and the boys were informed that a car was picking them up for a prostitution call by - -

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: How was he informed? How has we informed?

MR. SMITH: He was informed by the waiter at Dallas.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: The initial call went to point A. Point A, in turn, notified the bar now by telephone. Is that correct?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, what type of a telephone was used in the bar? Was that a public phone or was that a private phone used by the propietors or the operators of the bar?

MR. SMITH: This I don’t know. I believe that it would be a - - it would have been the private phone used by the bar rather than a public phone, but I did not observe the actual receiving or sending of calls.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: So that if it where the private telephone, then certainly the bartender or whoever answered that phone was actively in that so-called ring; is that correct?

MR. SMITH: He would have to be, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Okay. Mr.Chairman, I would think on the bases of this testimony right at this moment, this should be referred to the State Liquor Authority, because cartainly these acts are in violation of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Law, and the question is wheter this place should continue to be licensed. I recommend that that be done.

Now, on the narcotics, who sold whom? Were these youngsters buying or were these youngsters selling?

MR. SMITH: Uh, it was both. Uh, from what was- - from what I was able to observe in the bar and from the information I was able to gather from people that were - - that frequented the bar, the cocaine appeared to be- - to have- - Dallas appeared to have a cocaine connection. In other words, there were either people associated with the bar that were pushing cocaine or there were cocaine pushers allowed into the bar. Whatever the case was, one could purchase cocaine from the underage male prostitute and- - well, from the males prostitutes that worked the bar.

Whether these boys were buying it from their sources on their own or whether it was parto f an organized thing, I don’t know; but it was available in the bar.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Did you ever make any purchase of cocaine or other- -

MR. SMITH: No, sir. I had no authorization to make these.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: You also referred to transportation. Somebody would call from Washington to New York or viceversa, and then a call boy would be sent up. Kind of expensive, wasn’t it?

MR. SMITH: Yeah, it was.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Who paid for the transportation?

MR. SMITH: From the information that I got over a number of years on investigating call services, it’s generally the client who makes all the arrangements for transportation of the call boys, and it is not the call service that puts out the bill.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, with respect to the relocation of a call boy from one town to another, I think there was testimony to the effect that after they worked a particular city for a while, then they gravitate on to some other cities.

MR. SMITH: This is another operation. This is another type of operation.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Yes, I know that. And what I’m asking now is, who pays transportation for this type of operation?

MR. SMITH: In that case, then the organization that is transporting the boys would be paying for the transportation.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, in your investigations, were you able to ascertain or able to, at least, suspect how far up and how organized was this call boy operation?

MR. SMITH: I was able to suspect that the call service operation that were operating in Washington had some connection to organized crime in New York.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Can you tell me, at least loosely, what that connection was?

MR. SMITH: The connection appeared to be with trafficking of information on the clients, which would be obviously useful to organized crime.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: That would be separate and apart, would it no, from the call boy operation?

MR. SMITH: Not necessarily.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: It may be obtained as a result of that call boy operation, but that was a separate segment, was it not?

MR. SMITH: Senator, the relatioship between prostitution and pornography businesses are very complicated, and some of them are very loose and some of them are quite organized, existing at the same time if you can understand this. That there may be a connection between trafficking of information between the call services and organized crime, but these connections are reinforced by, let’s say, other business Ventures, joint Ventures.

It might be real estate, it might be pornography; and from what I have been able to develop, it appears that pornography plays some part in this connection.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Would you say that the pornography and the call boy is a jumping off point for other types of ilegal activity?

MR. SMITH: Very much so. Prostitution and pornography appears to be two sides of the same coin.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, in the course of your investigations, did you run across any evidence of some of these youngsters bein held in this business against their will?

MR. SMITH: No, I didn’t. In fact, many of the youngsters were willing participants; however, if you look at this problem in the light of drug coercion, then I think we could say that these kids were being held against their will, because some these kids are introduced to drugs and plied with drugs for a period of time.

That they cease to have any type of capabilities of judgement for themselves; and some of them are too young to even have any type of responsable judgment.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Is there a specific pattern that you can develop of drug use by these kids?

MR. SMITH: I think the prostitution and drug uses is very much together. I mean the drug usage goes with it. The life, the experiences, that some of these people go through makes them susceptible to drug use.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: I think we know that with respect to female prostitutes many of them are hooked and are dependent upon their pimps for their supply, and that is why they remain as prostitutes. Are you saying this with respect to these youngsters because that’s true with respect to the female prostitutes?

MR. SMITH: No.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Are you saying that as a result of your own observation?

MR. SMITH: As a result of my own observations. And I don’t say that the youngsters are being hooked on heroin. What I am saying is they are being introduced to barbituates, basically, is what a lot of the younger kids get into. They develop a habit into barbituates. But get a young child to perform, let’s say, for a sex movie or a prostitution service, especially if he hasn’t that much experience in it, sometimes you have a willing boy to work for a call service in a very passive way, but to get this boy to be active and actually commit homosexual acts on his own rather that taking the passive rol, drugs are used very much to coerce the boy into acting this way.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Well, do you know of any instances where drugs were witheld from a youngster until he performed?

MR. SMITH: No I don’t.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Do you know of any of these kids being arrested? What have your observations been with respect to law enforcement, arrests?

MR. SMITH: I have not observed law enforcement actively arresting underage kids.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: You did or you didn’t?

MR. SMITH: I have not.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: You have not. Would you care to caracterize the activities of law enforcement officials with respect to these underage kids?

MR. SMITH: I think they have a difficult time. There doesn’t appear to be any support from the courts, and - - I mean I am talking right now as my own opinion not as a- - as – from knowledge, but there doesn’t appear to be any money, funding specialized unites that would be able to take care of these problems.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: How about a cop on the beat who observes, 40, 50 kids in the bar underage when they aren’t supposed to be there to being with, do you need a special unit for that?

MR. SMITH: Senator, if you check the court records in the State of New York, and what incentive does a policeman have to arrest any type of underage prostitute or any type of offense like this, send it to the courts, and then have the judge pass out almost a slap on the wrist to offenders, to the pimps, or to the operators? The case of Paul Abrams, where he received a probation, was running underaged children, was quite a large operation, had links to organized crime.

MR.McKENNA: Senator.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Yes, I just want to prove this.

MR.McKENNA: Senator, in the Abrams’ case we sent a full report to the judge who sent a letter saying he didn’t want to hear from our committee.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: I know. I’m aware of that. Now, then what we can conclude from what you have said and have observed is that underaged prostitution has a very, very low priority.

Insofar as law enforcement officials are concerned and insofar as the judicial system is concerned; is that correct?

MR. SMITH: Senator, I have had talks with prosecutors. I have had talks even on Capitol Hill with individuals who ought to be involved with the problem of juvenile pornography. I had a- - I was told that juvenile pornography and prostitution was a cottage industry, that it was not worth the time or the effort to go after. However, my findings, the findings of the Committee, differ with that opinion.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: You as someone who investigated and seen some of the impacts and the resultant effect, would you say that it is something with wich we should be concerned?

MR. SMITH: Yes, it is.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: This is the reason the Committee is holding this hearing.

SENATOR MARINO: That’s right.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, what would you recommend, Mr.Smith, that we can do or what can be done with respect to reducing- - because you are not going to eliminate it completely, but reducing child prostitution, both male and female?

MR. SMITH: That is a policy question which I really- - I can only answer as a private citizen.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Well, as a private citizen- -

MR. SMITH: As a private citizen, I could say that providing the law enforcement agencies with a weapon, an effective weapon, to go out and investigate and giving these law enforcement agencies the backing of the judicial system. I think that a realistic understanding of the public and in the courts is where the problem lies. We have many- - oftentimes, we have prosecuting attorneys that look at prostitution as a victimless crime. However, in thse cases, the children themselves are victims. In a lot of cases, the lives of these chidren involved are unsalvageable. In our society, I dont think that we can afford to throw away so many kids.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: In your experience, did you also find that male prostitution, female prostitution, of underaged kids eventually leads to other and more advanced ilegal activities on their parts?

MR. SMITH: Yes, it does.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: In what direction, in what areas?

MR. SMITH: It seems to be a pattern that once- - especially among the boys. Once a boy is introduced to being a juvenile prostitute, chances are when he becomes an adult he is going to be a pederast. This has been the case, and I followed this on one boy that we had studied in ’77 with this committee. I kept track of his escapades, his career, and he went from being a fourteen-year-old-boy prostitute to being an adult pederast, without interest, as apart from what we might term as the regular type of homosexual.This boy developed a proclivity for very young kids.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Was there any evidence of gravitating into other forms of ilegal activity, such as robbery, burglary- -

MR. SMITH: Of course. The whole industry. The lifestyle is an anti-social lifestyle. It brings these kids at an early time in their life into contact with some of the worst types of people in our society. I am talking about murderers, drug dealers, organized criminals. It can’t help- - this contact can’t help but affect these children- - these kids’ development.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Would you conclude, then, that if we were able to reduce to a substantial degree juvenile prostitution that you would have a reduction also in other types of crime, subsequently?

MR. SMITH: It seems to follow that route.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Thank you. I have no other questions.

SENATOR MARINO: Do you have any questions?

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Oh, just one more question. I don’t know whether in the course of your investigations, did you find any central attorney or firm of attorneys representing these people?

MR. SMITH: In various- - in different areas. For instance, in Washington, there have been various attorneys that will show up that will handle the defense for a number of call services.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: How about New York?

MR. SMITH: In New York, I have not been involved in that part of the investigation here.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

SENATOR MARINO: Mr. Smith, you notice some magazine and newspapers on the desk next to you. These are recent purchases by this Committee. Are you familiar with those magazines?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR MARINO: Do those magazines actually advertise- - are you aware or do you know wheter they advertise call boy services?

MR. SMITH: “The Advocate”, during the ’77-’78 and the spring’s- - this last spring investigation of the Committee, we had found advertisements nationwide for call services and free-lance prostitutes in “The Advocate”.

SENATOR MARINO: How about the others?

MR. SMITH: The “Laddie” Magazine, we were able to find photographs of boys that were apparently underage, obviously underage. The Publisher of “Laddie” Magazine had given an interview a few years ago, if my memory is right, with a radio station here in Washington- - I mean here in New York, advocating pederism.

SENATOR MARINO: Is he connected with some association that advocates pederism?

MR. SMITH: He was connected with a former operator in New York who was indentified as a soldier in organized crime.

SENATOR MARINO: How do you know that connection?

MR. SMITH: The operator was operating a publishing house and after hours bars in Manhattan, and this individual at that time was working as the editor of one of the magazines being published.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: What was the going rate for these youngsters, do you know, average?

MR. SMITH: That varied, too, in Washington as opposed to New York. In New York, the rates were less than Washington.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: How much?

MR. SMITH: New York was between $50 and $100, sometimes $200, depending on the age of the child.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, can you tell me how many “tricks” a youngster would pull on a night, an average?

MR. SMITH: That I couldn’t say. I have more information on the Washington call services on that.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Wheat went on in Washington? I mean, what was the average?

MR. SMITH: Sometimes the average o fan average call boy working for a Washington call service would be two, sometimes three people a night from- - it depended also upon the- - sometimes these people were taken for weekends and for overnight and what not, at which time people- clients were paying up to $450.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: For a weekend?

MR. SMITH: For a weekend.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: To your knowledge, has anybody done any investigative survey as to how much money is involved annually with male youngster prostitution?

MR. SMITH: To my knowledge , I don’t believe that there has been- - I have not come into contact with any organization that has done national study of this problem

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Now, let me get back to this call girls’ ring with the bar- - call boy. Who paid the youngster? Was it the client who paid the youngster or did the client pay the call agency?

MR. SMITH: In most instances, the patron, the adult patron, would pay directly the clients. However, reports from male prostitutes at Dallas indicated that sometimes the call service paid the boys, especially when the payment was made in the form of a charge card or a check.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: What was the division, if you know, between the call service and the male prostitute?

MR. SMITH: This I don’t know.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: You don’t know whether it was split equally or otherwise?

MR. SMITH: This I don’t know.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: I have no more questions.

MR.McKENNA: I just want to ask you a question that will be developed more at length in tomorrow’s hearing, but did you have occasion to investigate the involvment of the phoney religious organizations in this whole prostitution?

MR. SMITH: Yes, I did.

MR.McKENNA: And where they- - some of these organizations were in New York?

MR. SMITH: Yes, they were.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Is the Maymarket bar still open?

MR. SMITH: To my knowledge, it is.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: To your knowledge, nobody ever notified the State Liquor Authority and no arrests were made by the police?

MR. SMITH: I don’t think so.

SENATOR MARINO: Is the Follies open as well?

MR. SMITH: Sir?

SENATOR MARINO: Is the Follies Theater still open?

MR. SMITH: I believe it still is open as well. It was open when I had left the Committee investigations.

--

>Now this sparked my interest, Mr.McKenna mas talking about some religious organizations involved with prostitution, and that will be a hearing tomorrow about it.

This is a public hearing from the New York State Select Committee On Crime.

And was made during July 26, 1982.

The next hearing regarding this religious organizations, should be by the same committe, July 28,1982.

But I can’t find any recording or transcription of it.

SENATOR MARINO: Now, you indicated before there were live stage shows at the Follies?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR MARINO: Was there any filming going on while these stage shows were being run?

MR. SMITH: There have been- - not in New York, that I had witnessed, I had reports that sometimes they were videotaped, but this was the- - this was the case in at least one instance in Washington.

SENATOR MARINO: Now, you indicated as well that patrons got involved with these youngsters during the show, before the show, and after the show.

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR MARINO: So that the theater itself was used for the sale of these youngsters, boys, at the very moment; is that what you’re indicating or- -

MR. SMITH: Well, part of the- - of the- - sometimes the stage shows would involve actual sexual contact between the boy performers and the audience.

SENATOR MARINO: Patrons.

MR. SMITH: Patrons.

SENATOR MARINO: Now, I take it they had- - at some point, they had two youngsters performing?

MR. SMITH: Yes.

SENATOR MARINO: Or they might have a patron and a youngster performing, is that- -

MR. SMITH: The patrons were not seen actually on the stage. The performances were when the boys would leave the stage and go into de audience.

SENATOR MARINO: I see.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: I would assume that the patrons were predominantly male?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Were there females patrons, too?

MR. SMITH: I did not observe any in any of the times I have ever seen.

SENATOR MARINO: Thank you, Mr.Smith. You have been very helpful.

SENATOR MARINO: Inspector Ciccotelli and Carl Weisbrod.

MR. WEISBROD: Mr. Ciccotelli is not here at the moment. I am here, but I will wait.

SENATOR MARINO: Mr. Bruce Taylor, then.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken.)

SENATOR MARINO: Mr. Smith, I would like to call you back. Is Mr.Smith here, please?

Mr.Smith, I understand that you have compiled a list of places where you may have seen other acts of live shows, male, prostitution, et cetera?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR MARINO: Do you have that list in fron of you?

MR. SMITH: No, I do not. The committee has the list.

SENATOR MARINO: Okay. If I were to name some of these or perhaps you could name them and tell us what you know about these various places, briefly on summary, and what you may have observed or know about them.

Here’s your whole investigation. Will this help you?

MR. SMITH: Yes, it will.

SENATOR MARINO: I don’t believe this has ever been summarized or detailed. I think we ought to know the names of these places. Do you want to push the microphone in front of you, please?

Can you testify from your own knowledge without being questioned?

MR. SMITH: Yes.

SENATOR MARINO: Can you testify based on the information you have available without being questioned?

MR. SMITH: Yes, sir.

SENATOR MARINO: Why don’t you tell us and explain it to us?

MR. SMITH: During the course of the spring Committee investigation, several businesses were visited in New York that were suspected of having some sort of activity involving juveniles. I will go through the list of places that we investigated.

There is the “Gaiety Burlesk” that’s located on 201 West 46th Street, and the- - it was reported by several informants to employ underage boys and had, in fact, been advertised in local gay publications as being a location for underaged children for sex. Upon visiting this location, underaged boys were sighted working for the establishment.

The second places is “EROS II”. It is the film theater located on 46th Street at 732 Eight Avenue. When this location was visited, live shows involving underage boys or apparently underaged boys were observed.

-—-

Link for the pic: http://cinematreasures.org/theaters/9809

The Big Top Cinema located at 49th Street. It was visite don January 26. Underage male prostitutes used this theater as a location for soliciting adults. None appeared to be in direct employment of the theater; however, the management seemed to encourage or appeared to encourage the boys to solicit.

“Male World” located at West 42nd Street and Eight Avenue. On January 26, two fifteen- or sixteen-year-old boys who worked as strippers were working the theater patrons as prostitutes, soliciting theater patrons.

In the “Follies Theater”, we have covered.

Show Place, located at 670 Eight Avenue, underage male prostitutes some of which appeared- - I’m sorry. Male prostitutes, some of which appeared to be underage, were employed as dancers.

“The Metropolitan”, which is a movie house located on 14th Street on East- - I mean 235 East 14th Street. It did not appear to be a- - the management did not appear to take an active part in prostitution, however, there was evidence of Negro and Hispanic boy prostitution, but it was basically a free-lance operation.

The “King’s Cinema” located on 236 West 50th Street was reported by a confidential informant to be a location for juvenile boy prostitution. When I visited it, was able to come up with a confirmation on that.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: I notice, Mr. Smith, that all of those you are reciting are in Manhattan. Are there any in the Bronx?

MR. SMITH: Well, we- - I- - when I was here in January and February, I had two months, which I could only- - in Manhattan is so much that I could only concéntrate on Manhattan. And there didn’t appear to be any type of major- - I mean compared to Manhattan, it wasn’t worth my while to go outside.

-—

King’s Cinema: https://archive.org/stream/kinematographyea26unse/kinematographyea26unse_djvu.txt

http://cinematreasures.org/comments?page=2&theater_id=4693

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: I am glad to hear that. Incidentally, in discussing the bars, you mentioned that they were gay bars. Are we to conclude that every gay bar is a place for male prostitution or are there gay bars in the City of New York which are operating in accordance with the law and are not cited as citees for male prostitution?

MR. SMITH: Senator, there are bars in New York which are homosexual that have or at the least appear to have absolutely no contact at all with the prostitution industry or the pornography industry. There are, in fact, bars that discourage pderasts and young juvenile prostitutes in their bars. There are specialized bars that encourage pederasts and juvenile prostitutes; and the clientele, generally speaking, do not mix. In other words, pederasts generally confine themselved to go into bars that are oriented to their interest and do not go to- - do not frequent what we might term as normal homosexual bar, and people who go into these bars normally do not patronize the prostitution bars.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: That was exactly the point. I didn’t want to leave the impression or anybody to get the impresión that every gay bar- -

MR. SMITH: No, we’re not- -

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: - -was painted with the same brush.

MR. SMITH: No, we’re not dealing with homosexualism. What we are dealing with is pederism.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Okay.

MR. SMITH: Another place that we have a location on is the 55th Street Playhouse, which is locates on 53rd Street near Sixth Avenue, and juvenile prostitutes were sighted in this place operating.

A place that’s called by the name of David. It is a film theater located at 236 West 54th Street. The observation there was juvenile prostitution.

The Adonis, another film theater on Eight Avenue and 50th Street, underage boy prostitutes.

The Night Shift, another theater on 777 Eight Avenue, underage boy prostitutes.

I might add that in these film theaters, the boy prostitutes in some of them have back romos or a separate area where patrons engage in sex, and it’s usually in these areas that boy prostitutes are available for hire and will perfom sex on premises with the patrons.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: Does the theater get a kickback on that?

MR. SMITH: This I don’t know.

Okay. Now, “Rounds” which is a bar located in 303 East 53rd Street in New York, male homosexual prostitutes and patrons, but none underage.

O'Neill’s, which is a bar located across the Street from the Follies theater, is a Midtown prostitution bar that was visited on the 20th of January, at which time several underaged children were at the bar. It was also a hangout for known pederasts and pornographers in New York, and these people were sighted and identified.

The “La Fiesta”, a bar located also in the same area on Eighth Avenue- - or off Eighth Avenue, is a bar which in- - some male prostitutes underage were sighted there in January.

The “Ninth Circle”, which is a bar located in Greenwich Village, is a popular bar for underage male prostitution and the drug trade; several underage boys drinking and playing pool in the downstairs game room. The place was visited on the 13th of January. It was not the same type of prostitution bar as existed in Midtown. These boys seemed to be drawn to the bar basically because of the availability of drugs or contacts to people who could put drugs in their hands.

Dallas, we have covered, and the Haymarket we have covered.

Okay. These were the bars. Do you care about any other businesses?

—-

>Now, I found something interesting with the NINTH CIRCLE bar.

http://www.back2stonewall.com/2019/04/disappearing-gay-history-ninth-circle.html

Just look at the comment sections, about drugs, ages and “hustling”.

SENATOR MARINO: No, that’s it. I just wanted to for the record get i tinto the record and have you indicate that this is not an isolated phenomenon, that there are only three or four places in town dealing with this type of activity. That is my only purpose in having you specifically identify these places.

Thank you very much.

SENATOR BERNSTEIN: You know, Mr.Chairman, I think that something should be said here with respect to some of our state agencies. We have a number of licensed premises, bars, mentioned; and I think that this leaves a question as to how come the State Liquor Authority will prefer charges against a liquor store which sells a bottle of liquor for 20 cents less than the posted price and place a man’s license in jeopardy and yet does not go after these bars, which apparently are notorious and widely cater to illegal activities of this nature. It leaves something to the imagination, to say the least.

That would be all. You can find the transcription with the investigation of two prior detectives in the first post of the thread.