No.8242
We have to stop thinking about monarchy in terms of "is it more socialist or libertarian" like some political compass soyboy NPC animal. The great royal houses who built the nations we know today were neither socialists nor libertarian liberals. The spectrum of acceptable ideologies in mainstream political discourse is incredibly small because the course of democratic society is determined by demagogues and their ideas. Materialism has corrupted the human brain to a degree that the NPC believes all that matters in politics is this stupid dialectic of two slightly different - equally decadent - types of cosmopolitanism.
____________________________
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No.8246
Well said. I have nothing really to add but this deserves a bump
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No.8253
The fact that there have been incredibly socialist monarchs (the Incas) and incredibly libertarian monarchs (Liechtenstein) proves that monarchism stands on a higher ground of politics that petty left v. right squabbles.
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No.8255
>>8253
The Incans were not “socialist”. This is projecting anachronistic terminology back on civilizations it doesn’t even apply to and indirectly props up commie talking points
>b-but they had no money!
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No.8264
I dunno you explain this shit
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No.8268
>>8242
Stopping in your thread, Ivanposter, to detain political animals.
>>8264
>politiscales
THOSE ARE NO BETTER THAN POLITICAL COMPASSES
POLITICAL ANIMALISM DETECTED
FACEBOOK IQ TEST
SSSSSSCREEEEEEECCCCCCHHHHHHH
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No.8269
You're absolutely right in that no monarch can possibly be libertarian. You should stop worrying about it because you, by definition, want an authoritarian totalitarian governance. Know that and stop pretending otherwise and you'll simplify things greatly both for you and anyone else.
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No.8270
>>8269
>want an authoritarian totalitarian governance
Using those two terms in immediate succession is a fairly good indicator that you're not well-informed on what either of them means.
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No.8364
Marxism is the only interently materialist ideology, OP
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No.8365
>>8364
Of the big three modern ones, anyway
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No.8377
>>8364
OP here. Capitalism isn’t inherently materialist? To me it’s the same utopian economic messianism.
>inb4 “that sounds like horseshoe theory”
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No.8382
>>8377
It probably used to be, but after reaching the 'Information age', it's become far more abstraction oriented.
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No.8392
>>8382
Capitalism is as materialist as fuck, what the hell are you talking about
>uhh they do stuff on computers now so it's not materialist!
Brainlet-tier
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No.8394
>>8377
Advocating for the free-market is ironically one of the least materialist positions to take. The idea of CONSTANT GROWTH BUY MORE CONSUME MORE OR ECONOMY CRASHES is the opposite of free market, it's Keynesian judaism, and calling Keynesianism free-market is brainlet-tier. Instead of obsessing over redistributing income from this group to that group, you become detached from materialist concerns.
>So what if that guy down the street has a better car? The market isn't a zero-sum game, his success has no bearing on my own.
>I can choose to dedicate my life to the eternal shekel and work like a dog, or I can dedicate more of my time to family because family time is worth more than a slightly higher salary
To allow the economy to run as it is, in the free market, instead of pursuing some leftist redistribution scheme, is to reject envy. To reject envy is to reject materialism.
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No.8396
>>8392
>abstraction based
>materialistic
Doesn't mean anything at this point. Heck, they have the golden calf on Wall Street. Idolaters they are. Perhaps monotheists.
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No.8412
>>8394
Every monarchy has taken a role in the market at some level or another, whether through taxation or restricting licences to trade or tariffs. The “free” market is a utopian abstraction. It’s another utopian ideology with false promises about saving mankind through economic liberty blah blah blah. It’s not how economies have ever worked. People do not autocorrect themselves away from degeneracy because mans problem is moral, it’s spiritual. It has little to do with the economy. Homo economicus is a flawed view of humanity. This is the ideology of “please don’t hurt me great one, I promise I’ll stop being a degenerate”. And no, that doesn’t make socialism correct either.
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No.8432
>>8394
>Advocating for the free-market is ironically one of the least materialist positions to take. The idea of CONSTANT GROWTH BUY MORE CONSUME MORE OR ECONOMY CRASHES is the opposite of free market, it's Keynesian
This is a good point.
>>8412
> It’s another utopian ideology with false promises about saving mankind through economic liberty blah blah blah.
To be fair, is wanting to just be taxed less such a bad thing? When taken to a pragmatic point of view, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It is a worldview more concerned with free will, right?
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No.8435
>>8432
Everyone wants to pay less taxes. Monarchs historically have taxed far less than modern states. The libertarian however must understand that his “rights” only come from the fact that a monarch is on the throne to preserve law and order. Without law and order, there can be no property anyway. Anarchism holds the king in contempt and anarchist “feudalists” want a weak king who cannot really do anything to fight oligarchies. The king has a right to a portion of the property of the rich because it is he who secures that right to own property in the first place. When you’re placing your own anarcho-liberal ideas above your support for the king, that’s a recipe for disloyalty to the king and doctrines of revolution.
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No.8436
>>8435
I wholeheartedly agree with some of this, but mostly because Monarchy is paternal. There are people who withhold this quality in contempt. Families are where propriety and order preserve the bedrock. Organs such as the family are built around people who rule and customs and mannerisms exist for this moral order. Propriety exists for the prospect of generations and for a man to establish his household for his offspring. Without this hope for a future, all propriety is dead and Monarchy exemplifies this bedrock.
>When you’re placing your own anarcho-liberal ideas above your support for the king, that’s a recipe for disloyalty to the king and doctrines of revolution.
That's because of the doctrine of natural rights of 'The People' being usurped. There is a doctrine that the People are always correct in overthrowing monarchies. Nevermind that these people might be communists or thieves, members of the usurping throng that bring destruction rather than order. My biggest problem is not just with the natural rights of people, but with the love of revolution and disorder found in other anarchist circles. Without a sense of propriety or as ascertained future, the revolutionaries destroy against the warning of St. Thomas Aquinas on the subject of 'virtuous tyrannicide'. That revolutions typically will worsen, not better the situation.
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No.8437
>>8412
Every monarchy has taken a role in the market, but monarchs have always, always been more hands-off in their interventions in the market than their POLITICAL ANIMAL counterparts. Tax rates were consistently lower, regulatory bodies were effectively nonexistent, in nearly every respect monarchical policies have been more favorable to an unrestricted market.
Let us assume for the moment that you are correct–a completely free market is unrealizable and at best may only be approximated. Do you also reject perfect circles, because they are "abstractions" and no perfect circle exists in the world? Even if the Platonic form of a circle never appears in the world, its properties are useful for approximating the way near-perfect circles behave. Even if the unrestricted market is such an ideal, then striving towards it and understanding its properties is still valuable. Your claim that it is "utopian" is simply false, not even close to the truth. No one claims the free market is a panacea that solves all the world's ills or any other such nonsense, it's simply acknowledged as the best tool for fulfilling a certain goal. You may as well call a hammer "utopian" for being the ideal tool for beating in nails.
>mans problem is moral, it’s spiritual. It has little to do with the economy.
It doesn't take all that much thinking to realize the connection between moral problems and the market. Men don't act morally because the consequences of their actions have been removed. In an unrestricted market, they will feel those consequences in full force. You want to be a bug chasing, fudge packing degenerate? Good luck with your AIDS and high-risk behavior making insurance costs skyrocket. You'll be barred from entry from any religious covenant community, as well as schools or any other building with lots of children. If your name is Tyrone, and you chimp out, trespass, or steal, you'll be be shot immediately, and no one will think twice about a man defending his property. When men feel the consequences of immoral behavior, they will act morally.
>saving mankind through economic liberty
Point to where someone in this thread said anything remotely like this. Don't put words in my mouth just so you can reply to them, faggot.
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No.8438
>>8437
Hello again. Sometimes I wish Hoppe hadn’t written that book as it flooded royalist discourse with ancaps. “The free market” has never historically actually existed according to these anarchists yet they talk about it as if it were their girlfriend or wife. It’s a complete abstraction. Not even a desirable abstraction once we consider society unrestricted doesn’t autocorrect towards the good. “The free market” did not exist in some absolute form under monarchies and kings never took a fully hands off approach. They supported fair trade, not free trade, and they outright banned certain sellers from the marketplace. They taxed and applied tariffs.
>morality comes from economics
Nope. Some libertarians (other libertarians just don’t care) have this incredibly naive idea that society unrestricted autocorrects towards the good. We don’t agree with that presupposition.
Economic messianism is deeply tied into libertarian thought. You yourself contested my claim that mans problem is not economic but moral in the same post as you claim I’m “misrepresenting” libertarians.
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No.8444
>>8438
>“The free market” has never historically actually existed
I refer you back to my previous post:
>Let us assume for the moment that you are correct–a completely free market is unrealizable and at best may only be approximated. Do you also reject perfect circles, because they are "abstractions" and no perfect circle exists in the world? Even if the Platonic form of a circle never appears in the world, its properties are useful for approximating the way near-perfect circles behave. Even if the unrestricted market is such an ideal, then striving towards it and understanding its properties is still valuable.
>They supported fair trade, not free trade
You're really in no position to call other people political animals when you unironically use democratic soundbytes in place of arguments.
>We don’t agree with that presupposition.
Good for you. Declaring it to be so isn't very convincing. I've posted multiple reasons how the market self-corrects towards desirable behavior, you have chosen to sidestep them rather than address them. You can grandstand about "economic messianism" all you want, it still doesn't constitute an argument.
>freedom is not liberating. The strongest, most binding chain you can impose on a man is to make him responsible for his own actions. You want to be a bug chasing, fudge packing degenerate? Good luck with your AIDS and high-risk behavior making insurance costs skyrocket. You'll be barred from entry into any religious covenant community, as well as schools or any other building with lots of children. If your name is Tyrone, and you chimp out, trespass, or steal, you'll be be shot immediately, and no one will think twice about a man defending his property as Tyrone's corpse is carted away. That is, assuming Tyrone even gets that far, since most businesses won't even let him through their doors, and most landlords wouldn't rent to him. Tyrone will be relegated to living in slums and ghettos with others of his own kind, far away from civilized men. No BLM protests, and no fag pride parades, first because there's a no government for these parasites to influence and second because street owners won't allow it anyways. Without the state serving as the civic religion, churches will rise to prominence once against, with all of the positive pressures that their commandments imply. Promiscuity is no longer subsidized by the state, but becomes socially unacceptable thanks to this. Instead of abortions, irresponsible young people will have no recourse besides shotgun weddings. The lie of egalitarianism, imposed and enforced by the state, will be no more. The natural order will take its place.
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No.8448
>>8444
No you have not explained why or how the market autocorrects for good. Not even a semi-free market does that so this perfect circle argument is bad because when I bring up examples of capitalist societies that became incredibly degenerate you will immediately say “well that’s not a real free market” just like communists say “well that’s not real communism”. I guarantee you will do this. I on the other hand can point to many moments in history where real monarchy was at work. That’s how you know your ideology is unrealistically utopian or not.
You made a bunch of claims about a stateless society, but you never backed any of it up. Because you can’t. We might as well be talking about literal unicorns right now because that’s what a stateless society is.
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No.8449
>>8444
Your worldview propagates the idea that the state is the greatest evil and therefore we must do away with the state. Communists believe capitalism is the greatest evil and they must do away with private property, markets, religion, everything that doesn’t conform to their ideology (although Marxists also believe in this utopian vision of ultimately doing away with the state).
The royalist realises these are political animal LARPs that are at war with reality.
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No.8450
>>8448
>No you have not explained why or how the market autocorrects for good
From my post:
>You want to be a bug chasing, fudge packing degenerate? Good luck with your AIDS and high-risk behavior making insurance costs skyrocket…
I'll say it again. Actions have consequences. Immoral actions have negative consequences. This isn't a difficult concept to understand.
>I guarantee you will do this.
I guarantee I won't
>but you never backed any of it up. Because you can’t
I can and I have, multiple times. If you think examples are the only way to support arguments, you're low-IQ. Empiricism is for niggers and sophomores.
>>8449
Bud, this is literal horseshoe theory right here, and there are no greater political animals than horseshoe theorists.
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No.8452
>>8450
WERE HERE TO TALK ABOUT ROYAL SYSTEMS THAT HAVE ACTUALLY FUNCTIONED IN HISTORY NOT IDEALS. YOU DONT KNOW WHAT A POLITICAL ANIMAL IS FUCKING ANARCHO KIKE. YOUR OWN EMBLEM CONTRADICTS YOUR LIBERAL POSITION. THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE WAS AN ABSOLUTE MONARCHY AND YOU CALL OTHERS LOW IQ. YOURE A COMPASSFAG POLITICAL ANIMAL WHO THINKS ABSOLUTE MONARCHY IS “HORSESHOE THEORY”.
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No.8453
>>8452
>THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE WAS AN ABSOLUTE MONARCHY
Are you saying we can't have the best of both worlds? Even an autocracy doesn't necessarily mean anti-liberty to the fullest extent. That's what normalfags believe. The greatest liberty is under a monarch.
>YOURE A COMPASSFAG
I don't see him using any DMC POLITICAL DATAMININGes. Last I looked, DMC POLITICAL DATAMININGes were a mistake.
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No.8454
>>8453
>DMC political datamining
mfw p*litical c*mpass is filtered now
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No.8458
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No.8463
>>8454
I just wanted to mess with you a bit.
It's been changed back.
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No.8469
>>8448
>No you have not explained why or how the market autocorrects for good. Not even a semi-free market does that
You are posting on an imageboard that has decentralized board ownership, for all intents and purpose this is a board market. If a board is shit, people vote with their feet and go to another one, hence: dysnigger at /b/ is all alone on his shit board as it has been replaced with /b2/, he did it for free anyway, so he doesn't care. /animu/ also became popular last year when the mods at /a/ started to go on a power trip. If board owners had more property rights, this system would've worked better, the "king" of this board would be able to truly rule it because he would also be able to make a real living from moderating and improving the board by earning the ad revenue. THIS IS THE FREE MARKET, this is more/less how medieval Europe was, not the modernist, centralized communist fantasy land you're imagining.
>>8452
The late Russian Empire had some of the free-est markets, you uneducated nigger, especially after Stolypin's reforms. Try learn the difference between the Empire and your anti-market commie brethren who took power. You call him a liberal, though ironically you hold the same socialist postitions as the liberals who partook in the February Revolution. "We're not socialists, we just hate markets", lmao it's the same as hearing "we're not parasites, we just hate the immune system", at least take responsibility and own the fact that you are a filthy leftist, then we can start discussing.
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No.8471
>>8469
>Bolshevik Revolution
Last I checked it was Kerensky, a classical liberal, who was a major player in the overthrow of the Tsar. Fucking brainlets however cannot concieve that monarchy transcends the modern left / right dialectic.
>mEdIEVal EUrope wuz FrEE mERKet
…
…
…
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
>u dOnT LiEk cAPiTalIsm ThER4 u A cOMmiE
Get help.
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No.8472
>>8471
>the February Revolution was the Bolshevik Revolution
You truly are a stupid fucking nigger.
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No.8478
>>8472
Did I say it was? That's right nope. Read what I said stupid nigger. >>8471
>"who was a major player in the overthrow of the Tsar"
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