No.671
/monarchy/, what is the ideal system of succession?
(Absolute?) Primogeniture?
Salic law?
Agnatic seniority?
Ultimogeniture?
Partible inheritance?
The Rota system?
Matrilinear?
Tanistric?
Should children under morganitic marriages be recognized for purposes of inheritance or succession?
Should children under cousin-marriages be recognized for purposes of inheritance or succession?
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No.693
Male-preferred primogeniture makes the most sense to me, as long as there is some legal mechanism to allow for disinheriting the crown prince if he is not of sound body or mind. Things like tanistry, partible inheritance, and the Rota system encourage civil war and the gradual disintegration of the realm. Primogeniture allows for an indisputable heir to the throne to be (hopefully) produced either before the reign of the king or early on in it. This allows them time to be trained extensively in the duties they will one day fulfill, and also minimizes the chance of needing a regency council to run the kingdom because the king died while his heir was a child.
>Should children under morganitic marriages be recognized for purposes of inheritance or succession?
I see no reason why not, especially if the marriage would be particularly eugenic. Introducing a bit of genetic diversity to the noble gene pool is not a bad idea, and marrying commoners who have no claim to anything might be safer for the realm than marrying into a family from a rival kingdom that will be able to make a legitimate claim to your throne in a few generations.
>Should children under cousin-marriages be recognized for purposes of inheritance or succession?
That's a tough one. Cousins are usually genetically distinct enough to avoid most of the risk that comes with incest. However, falling into a Hapsburg situation where successive generations are continually marrying their cousins will eventually lead to a bad situation, even if the political benefits of keeping certain lands and titles in the family are undeniable. The best approach would probably be one where cousin marriage is legal but socially stigmatized, and any children not of sound body and mind are disqualified from the succession.
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No.707
>>693
>minimizes the chance of needing a regency council
I too have played EUIV and CK and hate that shit.
Jokes aside, I agree with your assessment. Agnatic seniority leads to a fragile and senile gerontocracy, while ultimogeniture leads to regency councils and situations like what Peter the Great of Russia had to deal with in his early years. I'm rather partial to Salic law just because there's a large body of common law behind it to settle any possible dispute over the inheritance, and can be made as an agnatic primogeniture anyways. Tanistry and Rota can lead to a lot of disputes and in-fighting.
The only thing I'm split on is partible inheritance. I think there's something to be said about having something that naturally decentralizes and localizes governments over time, but as you said, it's likely to cause territorial disputes as well, and keeping a balance of power under such an inheritance system is a bit tricky.
As for morganitic marriages, I don't see any issue with marrying down into the aristocracy if at least for eugenic reasons. However, when you open it up to commoners in general, then you run into the possibility of some shrewd merchant/lobbyist of a Court sidling up to a Princess solely for manipulative purposes. I won't disagree that the same can't happen in other morganitic relationships, but at least it's to a much lesser degree because they already have their fief.
As for cousin marriages, I don't see the issue with disallowing them for purposes of inheritance of the crown. If it should already be socially stigmatized as you say, it's already generally a dumb thing to do anyways, then you might as well encode it into the succession law and avoid the Hapsburg scenario. If you want to play the advantages of marrying into your own lands, then I think allowing some degree of morganitic relationships covers for that.
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No.1021
Things that are important in succession law:
1 - Learning our lesson after Charles V.
2 - Avoiding plutocratic influences.
3 - Keep things simple or at least as indisputable as possible. We don't need pretender rebellions, state coups, and civil wars.
4 - Avoiding regency councils.
5 - Avoiding ridiculously geriatric leaders.
6 - Avoiding succession crises is preferable as well.
Per 1, children born from incest are not part of the inheritance.
Per 2, no marriages with those not of the aristocracy. Morganitic marriages, O.K., but not with commoners.
Per 3, no rota system, tanistries, or partible inheritances.
Per 4, no ultimogeniture.
Per 5, no seniority.
Per 6, having some third party body in cases of dispute. I think this is the best argument for Britain's parliament or Papal decree.
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No.1044
>>1021
What do you think of Bastard Children to avoid a War of Sucession?
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No.2220
>>671
Designated by ruler from among the royal dynasty (even if it's a distant relative), basing his choice on the heir's aptitude in rulership. If he dies before naming a successor, it shall default to primogeniture. Furthermore, all children of the ruler (whether daughters too or only sons is up to debate, depending on the country's gender policy) should be given a fief to govern when they come of age, so that they gain practical skills in governance and their performace can be clearly and accurately observed and weighed by the monarch – if the child led his fief to bankrupcy, he is likely not a fitting person to sit on the throne, but in the end, the monarch has the final word.
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No.2283
>>2220
If you do that, you're going to end up like Charlemagne's partible inheritance system.
Which inherently devolves political power into smaller powers.
…which fits in very well with Hans Adams II's political theory.
…..
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No.2380
>>671
If I recall, under Primogeniture some rulers picked a different son to inherit. I don't know how true that is but if so, oldest son can be properly prepared and if he turns out a moron the second-in-line can take his place. It's simple and hard to cause inheritance crises with.
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No.2466
The best might be for the outgoing king to chose himself the next leader. So it could be his kid, as anyone else, that he judges good enough to succeed him.
There could be a direct vote done by the aristocracy too.
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No.2489
If you guys had an estate or some large piece of property. How would you decide who inherits it? Personally, I would put it in my will that my eldest son should inherit it.
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No.2500
>>2489
This is a good way to think about it.
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No.2503
>>2489
Yeah but what if your eldest son is a faggot and your youngest son is a mensa level IQ warrior poet
Tanistry ftw
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No.2507
>>2503
In that case your eldest son would be deserving of the death penalty anyway. So your new eldest son would inherit the throne. Or you could split your empire among your off spring. Like Chlodowig.
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No.2508
>>2507
or have a vote among the male members of the family as to who should be king next
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No.2595
Male-preferred primogeniture is the best.
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No.4000
>>671
You forgot Electoral Cognatic Succession, OP.
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No.4005
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No.4007
>>671
Electoral Monarchy, where the children of the dead Monarch all become candidates to become the next King/Queen, and all the people vote (universal suffrage). After this, royal candidates then vote amongst themselves with the votes they received from the public. Voting continues until only two Candidates remain, with Candidate with highest votes becoming the next King/Queen.
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No.4008
If the now dead previous Monarch does not have children or has only one child, the choices expand to include the previous Monarch's siblings.
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No.4009
>>4008
>>4007
>>4000
Elon-chan supports this : >
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No.4012
Electoral Monarchy eliminates wars of succession, and has the strengths of both Monarchy and Democracy.
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No.4026
>>4012
>Democracy
>Strengths
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No.4040
>>4012
as nice as it sounds in theory, it is probably a bad idea to give the people the idea that they have some degree of authority over the ruler
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No.4041
>>4040
"The People"
Likely different factions of a people. Some people will agree, and others will disagree. I think anon with the appeal to democracy and monarchy has interesting points.
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No.4199
File: ec05ab15cb45b42⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image,2.11 MB,4087x5936,4087:5936,__eleonora_viltaria_ludmil….jpg)
>>671
Matrilinear succession where the royal line is carried from Queen Mother to her favoured daughter, or eldest daughter when no favoured daughter is selected. The Queen Mother's favoured son or eldest son rules as King, and must approve the men his Sister's marry, but cannot force them to marry.
Inventing forms of succession is fun!
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No.4239
>>4007
Sounds like the Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth
>>4012
Or contains the weaknesses of both, which is what happened to the PLC with the Liberium Veto
>>671
Why not base it on the best Ottoman Succession have the King/Sultan/Emperor make it with many beautiful (genetically superior women) send the best sons out to the provinces to govern, when the King/Sultan/Emperor dies whoever gets to the capital first becomes King/Sultan/Emperor have him kill his brothers and half brothers.
Although don't let it turn into what this system ended up devolving into, when after they got squeamish about having to kill infants and started imprisoning the brothers for life and got a succession of insane rulers from said imprisoned brothers. Also don't let marriages happened the Ottoman system started having issues when the Sultan's started getting married to there favourite concubines.
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No.4243
>>4239
Expanded PLC post
Sounds like the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, basically nobles elected a king, only nobility was inherited from the father, so by the time it ended something like 10-15% of the population could vote, which funnily enough was comparable or potentially greater than the early United States
Sounds elegant but it devolved into a clusterfuck, the nobles after a point kept electing foreign dynasties, probably the worst offender was the Liberium Veto. Basically every legislative session could be vetoed by any one representative, note the entire session not an individual law. Turns out foreign powers just started bribing legislators, nobles and electors to paralyze the kingdom and the PLC didn't recover ending up being carved up by its neighbours.
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No.4266
>>4026
In reality democracy and monarchy, government in general, can take many, many, forms. We are often just aware of the common forms.
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No.4269
>basically nobles elected a king, only nobility was inherited from the father, so by the time it ended something like 10-15% of the population could vote, which funnily enough was comparable or potentially greater than the early United States
Yeah that wasn't my concept at all. The concept was that the Citizens could elect the next Monarch from among the children of the previous Monarch, upon said Monarch's death or abdication. There are of course, many potential variations.
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No.5039
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No.5067
>>4239
>>4243
This is a slight misconception. The Liberum Veto worked surprisingly well as long as we had a certain political culture. The idea was: no decision is made without unanimous agreement, so the people kept negotiating until, for the good of the commonwealth, an agreement was reached. Then, one nobleman by the name of Siciński left the congregation, thus breaking off the negotiations. This was a precedent that allowed for the veto. This principle was in power theoretically since 1505, Siciński left a local congregation in 1623 I think. In all that time, no one broke off the proceedings. Still, high political culture and patriotism allowed the system to continue and it is only in the XVIIIth century that no new legislation was passed due to external influence, but mostly because the average noble stopped being the multilingual educated patriot that he used to be. You also could not veto an election.
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