No.5936
How does /monarchy/ address the notion that governance will always fall to a "Deep State?" Can the problem of the Deep State even be addressed by any form of government?
Pic very much related.
____________________________
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5937
>>5936
Yes and no.
Monarchy, if capable of expunging this influence, is able to remove the Deep State. However, different people have different views on what the "Deep State" influence is. Whether it's the Jews, the Bourgeois, or the Illuminati, I would say a monarchy has historically dealt with either around different time periods.
When it comes to influences and economics, however, no political body is independent of these influences. No nation is independent of diplomacy and its neighbors. No economy is independent of the elite. No political landscape is independent of the troublemakers and radicals. Saying otherwise is a bit wishy-washy and idealist.
>autistic pic related
Monarchies have a bad maybe good track record of expelling Jews. That's one element of what is usually comprised of the "Deep State". And how about "the Bourgeois" – depends on the actual power of the monarch in terms of command and politics. Economic dependency is a hard element to walk over. A monarch usually has the ultimate resource: loyalty. There is no trade off like having someone willing to die for you and fight like a true vassal. /leftypol/ and others would probably say monarchs are in the pocket of this class, but that's not always true.
>what about muh Freemasonry
Different monarchs have opposed this and also different monarchs have supported this.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5938
To monarchists the allusion to the "deepstate" has always been those liars who claimed to represent "The People" and didn't rule like any other autocracy. That's the way the world really is.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5939
A few unruly bureaucrats in the government are an obstacle, but with enough shrewd politics, and the ability to administer command, they can be removed to. If someone working for a monarch is hired, they definitely could be also be fired. Meanwhile, bankers and their influence on the economy. That quote in OP is interesting because usually the propaganda from other countries about Russia was that the Tsar was "incompetent".
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5941
>>5936
Deep States arise through bureaucracy. Unlike other forms of government, the monarch has a vested interest in keeping the bureaucracy from growing, because such things are wasteful (which drains the monarch's personal coffers for no real gain), and threaten to usurp the monarch's power. As a result, the bureaucratic apparatus will tend to be much smaller in monarchies, which limits the things a Deep State could influence. Further, Deep States arise because bureaucrats are never voted out of office and stay in power indefinitely, giving them more time (compared to elected officials) to accrue power and a comparative increase in influence. But the king also rules for life, and his family rules for centuries. Because of these facts, the bureaucrat no longer has a time-preference advantage over the ruling body (the King), and is in fact at a disadvantage. Because of these factors, any deep state that attempted to rise in a monarchy would be broken apart before it could do anything meaningful.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5944
The King's advisors were the protoplasm of the modern Deep State. From this perspective, Cardinal Richelieu was the original Deep State, and thinking that monarchies are somehow any more immune to this phenomenon than other forms of governance is folly.
Pay attention to that last sentence. Don't fall into the trap of utopianism. You don't need to argue that monarchism is perfect, only that it is better.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5945
>>5944
>You don't need to argue that monarchism is perfect, only that it is better.
Apologies, that's what I was attempting to do. Hence why I said that bureaucracies would be smaller under a monarch rather than nonexistent. That is, Deep States are harder to form under monarchies because they have the deck stacked against them. It's not impossible, as the Merovingian mayors of the palace can attest, but certainly more difficult.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5946
On the flipside, sometimes I despise political realism and the notion that it's always the shadow in the background controlling everything. I beg to differ with the deep state autism. Political realism is too "realism" to be real. Sometimes the truth of the matter is profoundly simple.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5947
A good example of this is Rasputin.
I have to say, sometimes the backdoor man is just a backdoor man. I find it incredibly autistic. As stated here, nothing is clearly without the influence of these factors, but those factors are not immune or effective for being in the background or a spot "outside the state". When I re-evaluate the term "Deep State" it usually comes to mean stuff that is "corrupting the State" anyways because these people cannot conceive any other influences in terms of politics.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5948
>>5945
>>5944
This happens all the time in everyday life. It's like with nationalists who want the nation's interests ahead. This is a complicated matter. Nations are not independent of neighboring nations and diplomacy. Steering the boat of diplomacy is about maintaining this crux. We definitely don't want this type of thing of "power behind the throne" damaging the image of reputable and good monarchies like the Romanovs. This has unfortunately taken its toll with Rasputin and Internet spergs who obsess over political realism and the ideal of intrigue.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5949
>>5944
>Don't fall into the trap of utopianism
It's not utopianism. It's just another dynamic of argumentation. There's two-sides to every coin. Better is not an adequate word. I would say best.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6692
>>5936
Bureaucracy, it is unstoppable
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6693
>>5944
Monarchies are less susceptible since it is much easier to fool the leaders of a republic due to their highly temporary nature. Fooling a king about the state of his realm is much harder since it'd need to be carried on for an entire lifetime.
It's not impossible for a deep state to develop, but it's less likely, and easier combated.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6717
England's Charles 1st was a right asshole, wasn't he? Sure they cut his head off, but yeah… what a selfish prick.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6719
>>6717
Where is your flag?
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.