No.4216
THE GREAT PSYCH-OP
Individual and collective is a republican game.
The origin of the individual and society begins with the family. No individualists or partisans belong here. The individualist wants to take advantage of society, and the partisan seeks to dismantle the individual. These worldviews are incompatible. They are impractical. They aren't functional in the real world.
Don't you hate it, /monarchy/? Tell me you know what I mean.
____________________________
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No.4218
This goes to all people who think in these terms. Don't limit yourself to 'individual' or 'collective'.
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No.4232
>>4216
what if someone does not like his or her family?
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No.4233
>>4232
Tough luck. But their family is typically the basic social safety net. For most people, they're the first people you are able to rely on.
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No.4258
>>4233
They can also be the first people to abuse you.
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No.4259
>>4218
I agree that society should grow out of the family. However, this can take many forms.
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No.4262
>>4258
Yet they were the people who raised you. They are responsible, nonetheless. We don't live in a perfect world. The best we can do is hope.
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No.4263
>>4259
This goes between a man and a woman. It goes between father and mother. Period.
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No.4280
All remotely respectable society is a racial construct. And a race is but one extra-large family.
The most long-lasting, non-subordinate, state societies in history have been the likes of Old Egypt or Ancient China (monarchies with a strong racial core).
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No.4281
>>4233
not anymore in digital era
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No.4285
>>4281
Plenty self-segregate with those they are genetically closest.
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No.4305
>>4285
yes but it is becoming less and less common
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No.4306
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No.4337
>>4216
Only when a tyrannical government exists, are you forced to choose between one or the other. In a voluntary society, people will all be individuals by default, but they will also be collectivists too, since they will be choosing their collectives voluntarily.
In other words, you can if you want to, but normally you wouldn't reject family, friends, community, country, race, etc… as all of these would be necessary in a high-trust society, and the alternative is a risky, expensive, and difficult lifestyle to maintain.
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No.4344
>>4306
>Man by nature seeks the company of those who share his blood.
worldview, not blood
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No.4349
>>4344
If what you said was the case the least dysfunctional societies wouldn't be racially homogeneous (which they are). And South America or the Middle-East wouldn't be such shitholes.
Tell me what happened to the Roman Empire?
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No.4365
>>4349
the least dysfunctional societies are racially homogenous because they share common values and history and tradition (worldview)
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No.4366
>>4365
>t. cuckservervative
Those "common values and history" root in one shared heritage. Even in Europe, Nordics behavior differently from Slavs who behave differently from Wops.
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No.4375
Daily reminder
To those who reject the family as the social unit for society and the individual – your parents likely named you, and this was not your choice. However, perhaps, your heritage. There are instances of people who change their name out of shame for their heritage.
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No.4384
I think that history/culture have a place in heritage. Man quintessentially needs a history and culture, and something to be proud of for his ancestors. We aren't of rootless origin. We have a history. And our identity and actions, built up from history and yearning, become part of culture between this tradition of loyalty and people that form sovereign nations.
<>If you take someone of a foreign race, and a foreign nationality, into a sovereign nation, they are an outsider to this heritage. The nation consists of a race, a common heritage/culture, and a sovereign. Put someone of a foreign race into a sovereign nation, they cannot change their heritage and past loyalties and cannot change their race. Put someone of a foreign nationality (combination of heritage/loyalty), same race, they can change their loyalty, but their heritage remains the same.
My stance on civic nationalism.
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No.4385
>>4384
In short, to deny race matters and to deny that history/culture matter for nations is insanity.
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No.4416
As far as the individual is responsible for his actions, the individual is free. The individual has a place and freedom without responsibility is freedom at the expense of others. The social component is the family. And the individual has a first name (for their individual status) and a last name (for their heritage). The 'Mr' and 'Mrs' and the household matter. The shields of heraldry and the role of family are both indispensable for reconciling individual and society.
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No.4417
>>4216
What most people miss in this is the component of work:
Back in the good old days, nearly everyone worked either in a family business or in a family-like business of a master, a handful of journeymen and some apprentices, that essentially worked like a family unit.
Nowadays most people work for giant multinationals and if they do not, they at least work for medium-sized companies (think 100+ people) that are directly dependent on the multinationals.They have little to no personal attachment to work anymore as they are an anonymous cog in a giant machine, not even a person.
So while in the old days even the lower workers derived some dignity and fulfillment from their work because they were treated as part of a family, now anyone below C-level executives gets crushed into being a non-person.
Those that give in to that become collectivists, those that struggle against it become full individualists to derive for themselves a minuscule measure of human dignity, while rejecting dependence or loyalty to anyone, even their own family.
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No.4425
>>4263
Yes biology has it's place, but what are you? A Christian, muslim? There is no 'Period' in the real world beyond natural law arising from physics. Only in dogmatic absolutism.
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No.4427
>>4385
Race and Religion and Culture and Class.
All matter.
For democracies to somewhat function they must have a either a common ethnicity (say, Saxon) or they must have a very strong religious bond.
Imperial States require a ruling dynasty, often of one ethnicity.
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No.4428
>>4427
Memes, Genes, and Environment must all be considered.
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No.4429
Democracies require much more equality between the populace than Monarchy to be stable.
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No.4457
>>4417
Yes, this is the ideal, but for example, the males in my family are subservient beta cucks who are ordered around by women who can't manage money and don't know how to make good business decisions, so for someone like me, being some anonymous cog in a machine who just does his work, gets paid for it, and doesn't owe anyone any extra friendship or anything seems like a very attractive alternative until I can start my own business, or at least until I buy my own land that I can live on for free, growing vegetables and shit.
You're unwittingly rephrasing the leftist argument that the means of production should belong to the workers (essentially a family or family-like business model) in more right-wing terms, but the reality is that you can't force one solution, or one business model for everyone without creating more problems.
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No.4467
>>4457
>You're unwittingly rephrasing the leftist argument that the means of production should belong to the workers
That's not by accident. I'm a Distributist.
The problem with the idea of the left isn't the idea, it's that they says the workers should own it while appropriating it for the state.
I'm more for simply stopping to buy mass-manufactured garbage and starting to buy from local craftsmen instead. I stopped going to supermarkets and am buying from farmers. I bought my last table custom-made. etc. etc. The big corporations will fail on their own once people realize that a healthy society cannot be built upon multinational megacorps with no regard for any value besides money and whose workers do not truly create.
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No.4474
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>4467
People love quality, nobody likes mass-produced Chinese shit, but not everyone wants to spend $10,000 on a spoon either.
>The big corporations will fail on their own once people realize that a healthy society cannot be built upon multinational megacorps with no regard for any value besides money and whose workers do not truly create.
Typical feels > realz leftist drivel, but okay, just keep in mind that those creating something of quality are not going to care about some kind of "value besides money" either, because value IS money, you can bet your ass that someone who poured his heart and soul into something won't sell it for cheap.
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No.4475
>>4467
>>4457
OP here.
>I'm a Distributist
Distributism and the libertarian economic philosophy are both fine and I support both. They both regard property well, and then the importance of the family matters. As long as they are pragmatic and work. It is important to steer away from utopias as a monarchist.
<why do you intervene?
Because I bash libertarians too often, but I also feel civil discussion is important from time to time. I am inclined to identify with their economic positions from time to time, but their social views are typically startling from time to time.
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No.4481
>>4474
>not going to care about some kind of "value besides money
>someone who poured his heart and soul
But heart and soul is greater than money. This is a self-contradictory statement. Someone who does not care about anything more than money cannot pour his heart and soul into creating anything, at best he can become a driven merchant.
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No.4505
>>4475
>Distributism and the libertarian economic philosophy are both fine and I support both.
So do I, but for me it's important to keep the options open, so that there would be different solutions for different people. If everyone was forced to work in a family business like in some comfy fantasy anime, that would suck in reality, if everyone was forced to work for a megacorp like in today's corporatist/Keynesian cyberpunk dystopia, that would suck too.
>their social views are typically startling from time to time.
Like what? Drugs? Guns? Selling children? What's your problem?
>>4481
If someone truly poured his heart and soul into something, he wouldn't sell it for cheap, because he doesn't consider his heart and soul to be cheap, this shouldn't be hard to understand. The only exception to this is if a man agrees to work for a salary with a team of specialists to create art and not worry about anything else, like if some Hideo Kojima or some Yoko Taro or some other genius was given the funding and the authority of an evil multi-national megacorp to create works of art like Metal Gear and Nier, which aren't just high in quality and artistic value, but also affordable. This is only possible in the most free of markets.
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No.4710
Interesting quote on the topic of liberty and authority.
>love? and these quotes? these are just sophistry and nonsense.
Consider the power of spirit, culture, and love before all other movements that appeal to spiritual strength. Like a natural instinct, a parent has an imperative to nurture a child and people have respect for spiritual significance and for chivalrous order. God is love. And if you look to Japan, despite possible 'flaws', the Japanese have a love for their Emperor. The best counterbalance between the ideal of liberty and the authority is love and dedication.
I appeal to all feudalists to drop the hyper-individualistic view and retake the achievements of heraldry, chivalry, and familial outlooks over civic ideals and ideology.
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No.4711
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No.4720
>>4216
not wanting to sacrifice to society like a cuck is not taking advantage of society
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No.4722
>>4720
progressives are always taking liberal ideals and re-introducing them like poison. If there was a monarchist understanding of society, from father and mother, 'mr' and 'mrs', 'first name' and 'last name', there wouldn't be so many problems like hyper-individualist fluidity across the board.
>representation!
<hey, don't you think you need more blacks and Diversity™ here? This film studio needs more of this. How about we make the EU to represent us all as fundamentally Human™
>individual freedom, liberty, and human rights!
<international human rights, "refugees", abortion, LGBTQIA+
>anti-authoritarianism!
<well, authoritarianism and totalitarianism are the same thing. let's have a riot and confiscate property and support racial division – if you aren't for tearing down social fabric, you're a boot-licker
>business rights
<starbucks anti-racist campaigns, twitter censorship, and youtube shenanigans
>free trade
<multi-nationals offshoot and send autonomy to support communist bugmen like China and plague us with their hyper-individualist 'we are the world' nonsense.
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No.4723
then we end up with crap like this.
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No.4724
>>4722
*not to mention what MM warned about social contract theory and choosing governments
<"People around the world but western people in particular have largely lost their sense of identity. This is the unavoidable result of the revolutionary period of history. The overthrow of monarchs, whose lives were the history of their nations, broke people away from their histories and traditions. It changed the way people viewed their countries, from a familial view to an entirely civic view. When the ruler could be anyone it was only a matter of time before the people could be anyone too." - Mad Monarchist
>"Nationalism is treason." - Emmanuel Macron
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No.4730
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No.4750
>>4730
im more white than you you 56% amerimutt
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