No.3581
Could Europe have industrialised as quickly under the continued reign of Absolutism or did progress depend on the stronger individual rights achieved (directly and indirectly) by the forces of liberalism?
Britain did very well and shed itself of Absolutism fairly quickly– Northern Europe in general has done better than the South, and been relatively more free– however the issue is probably more nuanced than that. How do you think we find out the truth?
____________________________
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3582
>>3581
You're implying industrialization is progress, and you're wrong.
It is progress only when you measure purely in economic terms, which is a terrible idea because people aren't machines.
Industrialism ruined freedom, it did not create it. Back in the day, the majority of people owned a house (though it may have been more appropriately called a hut) and a small plot of land to feed their family off of. They worked with tools they owned, on land they owned, to make what they needed to live.
How is a man that is employed by another, lives on land he does not own, and is dependent on large international syndicates for his everyday needs more free than the man described above?
Not to mention, industrialism and the resultant cancerous growth of cities it produced have ruined what used to be tightly-knit communities. Furthermore, it has encouraged the death of values like honesty and fairness through promotion of competition instead of having groups of craftsmen both represented and regulated by the guilds they form, ensuring their survival and their honor.
I recommend you read some Belloc and Chesterton and other Distributists.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3585
>>3582
Not to mention that they didn't work the same long hours or persistently throughout all seasons.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3586
>>3581
I don't see why not, OP.
An absolute monarchy doesn't curtail that those subjects have no rights at all. There were serfs/peasants, but feudal rank may become abolished and still remain an absolute monarchy. I don't see why absolutism and individual rights need to contrast each other on terms of progress of society. Seems irrelevant to me. It could have if absolute monarchies allowed abolished serfdom and spread out with empires. And even with these structures, industrialization could still persist in these empires. The Russian Empire was absolute and remained until the early 20th century. It was rapidly industrializing and it didn't abolish serfdom until much closer. Most monarchies were absolute and played a role in government pre-WW1 and most of Europe industrialized.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3587
Also, slavery continued still around the later half of the 19th century, OP. If you're thinking about a rapidly industrializing country like the United States, there's that to consider, but that partially industrialized because technological innovation and heaps of land for people to take. In Europe, landowners were established and aristocrats owned land. If you mean that landownership and urbanization helped, yes, but I wouldn't count that absolutism stands contrary to technological progress and I don't think absolutism would stand apart from property ownership, even for the masses.
If you think of France under Louis XIV, it was very wealthy and innovative. It built construction projects like the Palace of Versailles and a huge waterway. There were still advances in technology and different roles. Their absolutism didn't slow them down, only technology and access to resources and wealth. The environment too. People will think of the Russian Empire and consider that sheer ideology and backwater peasantry slowed the country down, but I wouldn't consider that true. How do we know that the Russian Empire didn't industrialize as fast because of its terrain and cold winters that everyone talks about?
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3588
>>3582
>How is a man that is employed by another, lives on land he does not own, and is dependent on large international syndicates for his everyday needs more free than the man described above?
You're glossing over a serious concern. Working on land you "own" and living in "your" hut (assuming that these are both true and not some kind of lie like 'owning' land you'll lose if you don't pay taxes, jerk off some politician or nobleman or some other such nonsense) is all well and good but if you have absolutely no wealth with which to project power you're just subsisting. No wealth means no growth and no ability to affect anything. Can't buy goods of any kind, can't hire people, can't expand your territory without the kind of power which generally comes from wealth. Industrialization allowed people who had no power to acquire it through wealth. It's true that most people are serfs even now, but a return to any more ancient version of serfdom hardly seems a solution.
On the subject of "progress"; Nothing is progress except that which is tightly constrained and mathematical, or at least chronological. So technically everything is "progress" to a pointlessly vague degree or practically nothing is because at no point in time is everything "at least 1 unit better than the last number".
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3589
>>3588
Wealth is within resources and trade. And power through craftsman and guilds is still a viable option. Stop putting quotation marks on "own" like a leftypol autist. They could still trade goods and services through a power structure and own property in a distinct sense. Nobody needs power and responsibility over everything, and that is what power is – responsibility. The previous system emphasized responsibility over peers in vassalship and today we still must emphasize responsibility.
Even the feudal doctrine emphasized responsibility as a power structure and not merely dialectical materialism. The king had power because he was responsible for his sovereignty and became sovereign. Sovereign power is responsibility for the whole kingdom and puts him at the top of the hierarchy… And the hierarchy and order of this kind – the power – meant responsibility over others and social connections.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3590
The distributist ideal is spreading out property ownership as far and wide as possible. There is nothing quintessentially wrong with vassalship as a structure and it's a political reality no matter what time period you're in, you stupid progressive. You idealists see loyalty to ideals and ignore the reality of loyalty around people. The problem with industrialization isn't its wealth, but its structure towards society. We have no problem with many modern innovations and don't seek to destroy it like you portray us reactionaries.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3591
I'm not even a distributist, ffs.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3592
The problem with industrialization is its structure towards society. It builds big monoliths with no spiritual significance over the land, these massive skyscrapers, and massive roads only to destroy the beauty of a landscape. It takes away houses. In an older society, men built and had strength and responsibility for a household – as meager as it was – and men had a profession and a place somewhere. In the post-industrialized world, people are rootless and owe nothing to heritage or generational binding. Owe nothing to vassalship or any meaningful structure, only post-modernist lamentations and destruction rather than the restoration of structure.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3593
I know WrathofGnon is pretty cliche and being worn out on this board, but his points are invaluable. We phased out a meaningful structure of spiritual significance and meaning within a society and replaced it for internationalist hegemony, mass politics, and bizarre ideals with no loyalty or concrete structure relating to ANYONE in this world.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3603
>>3582
>It is progress only when you measure purely in economic terms
It doesn't follow.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3692
>getting raped by hordes of Niggers and Achmeds
>this is progress
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3697
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3724
Name a single great civilization (as in producing works of worth instead of Nigger tier scribbling) before modernity that both didn't operate under hereditary rule and also didn't restrict eligibility of rulership to those of proper bloodlines (such as Venice's Great Council, the Mongol's khans).
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3783
>>3692
BUT AT LEAST YOU HAVE UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE AND INTERNET NOW?!
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3784
>>3581
>Could Europe have industrialised as quickly under the continued reign of Absolutism
Absolutely. Industrialization comes organically with free markets and property rights. If the monarch would promise to protect your property and mind his own business while letting you mind yours, then the country will industrialize organically without any ill effects.
It's also possible to round everyone up like cattle and send them to factories, and you will possibly achieve industrialization faster this way, but there's absolutely no need to rush to shit out canned food and cheap products, because if people really needed it that bad, they would have started doing it already, and instead you get a lot of problems.
>>3582
You're almost right, the problem isn't industrialization, the problem is forced industrialization, when the government makes economic policies that favour companies and factories to try to industrialize faster just so they could out-compete some other country, what you get is all those things you mentioned.
he worst case of this happening was in Soviet Russia, where they sacrificed armies of slaves to industrialize the country, while Finland (which was economically similar to Russia before the revolution) stayed agrarian well into the 70s and they were much wealthier and much better off than the Russians.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3786
>>3783
>when the government makes economic policies that favour companies and factories to try to industrialize faster just so they could out-compete some other country
That's just regular industrialization. Virtually every industrial country employed interventionist measures to industrialize in the first place.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3787
>>3786
Indeed. The Meiji Revolution even had the emperor become a proper monarch instead of the figure head the position of emperor had in Japanese society for a long while.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3791
>>3786
>That's just regular industrialization.
Industrialization comes with new automation technologies, not with government policies. You couldn't force ancient people to industrialize if you simply didn't have the technology for it, otherwise you'd be limited to forcing everyone to build a windmill near their house or something and working all day to produce shit they don't need instead of doing more important activities. It will be like China where there is a lot of cheap shit, but the rest of the country is shit.
>Virtually every industrial country employed interventionist measures to industrialize in the first place.
You're right, but they did it to varying degrees. The problem is interventionism, not industrialization. With interventionism, even if you have good intentions, you create imbalances in parts of the economy. When someone without any help or hindrance from the government builds his own factory or workshop, when he hires workers on terms that they are happy with and they can choose to not work for you if they don't want to, when other people have the ability to sue the factory owner if his factory is creating problems for people nearby or for the environment, then none of the serious problems that we have with industrialization would come about. The process might take place slower, but there's absolutely no need to rush things and cause chaos.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.3885
>>3786
Civilization begins with civilized people. It takes the spirit to enter the world and create and produce with affection. Industrialization requires this innovative spirit. Not innovative in the sense that it introduces new things, but innovative in the sense that it belongs somewhere and works with circumstances. You could say it is only raw materials, pig-iron, and coal that matters for manufacturing. For a benevolent society, it requires a greater strength to foster innovative people.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.4779
I don't see what's so great about "progress". What if we're progressing towards a Hell? Ever thought about that one? Change for change's sake isn't good. You need to evaluate changes and not just say "new is better". Old is sometimes better than new. Better to hold to traditions as a form of ancestral wisdom built up over time. Innovative is not about being new, but working around circumstances without destroying traditional forms.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5100
We need to progress away from modernity if anything. Or, at the very least, progress away from the bad aspects of what is considered "modern". Re-define 'modern' and 'new' and simply re-introduce old ideas? Then again, tradition is the vote of the dead in our world and the wisdom of generations.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5120
>>4779
>not liking transhumanism
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5174
>>5120
>liking transhumanism
top kek. okay, cyborg. no, more like cy-dork.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5666
>>3692
Only if you're on the wrong side of history, mate.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5667
Probably not, but it isn't really a matter of individual rights, it's more of a matter of what caste took over and their sensibilities, the merchant caste. And it is in the interest of this caste that much resources were invested into the means of producing and consuming more optimally and the type of "civilization" we see nowadays.
Not that some increased "scientism" wasn't already arising after the middle ages, but its explosion is in large part due to the possibilities unlocked by the increase in the means of production, an interest by itself economic/productive rather than scientific, though it needs some science.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.5742
>>5667
>Probably not
Why not? Russian Empire was not the most industrial for its time period, but it was industrializing further.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6482
>>3581
>hello my highness can we build them railroads and dem factories???????
>nu sum republican in 150 years future says no
bottom text
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6531
>>5174
His pic is shit, also
>transhumanism is about being cyborgs who are machines less advanced and independent than they are now
wew
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6548
>Northern Europe in general has done better than the South
Anyone have that infographic/quote about how Austro-Hungary had an insanely large GDP?
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6555
>>6548
You'd be quoting from the neverland…
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6589
>>3581
Northern Europe was changing faster, because it was younger.
Systems couldn't keep up.
(also democracy has less problems with change, as it feels okay moving after the changes, where a monarchy has a stronger need to move before the changes)
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6608
>>3581
Individual rights were actually far greater before WW1 nya~
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6609
>>6548
>Northern Europe in general has done better than the South
Until now with the Sweden.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6610
>>6548
I think you can find it here >>2679
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6639
I live in a sub-urban/rural neighborhood. I border rural areas so there is plenty of open space. I don't know any of my neighbors, I haven't spoken a single word to them in years. The entire industrial/urbanized city model is based on placing people in boxes in the most efficient possible manner so that they can commute mile away to work. no one knows or needs to know the people next to them, since you only live there just to spend all you time far away. this is industrial society. Surrounded by people, but not having a relationship to any of them.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6642
>>6531
Monarcho-Primitivism is the solution
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.6684
>>3581
Absolutism brought Monarchy to its knees, you have to have the liberality to leave power on the table, so long as it is nonthreatening
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.