No.1236
How bad were the Middle Ages in Europe really, /monarchy/? The consensus seems to be that they were pretty brutal, but how much compared to muh peaceful Muslims and muh noble savages is not so clear, or even compared to modern times. Of course, democide numbers were far lower, but so was total population, so that doesn't tell us all that much.
____________________________
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1241
I've been repeatedly told by historians that many of the horrible things we're inclined to think about the middle ages today are either made up or extremely exaggerated
For example, the so called Ius Primae Noctis was a myth, and indeed i always found it weird how such a practice could have been popular under the strict monogamous system sanctioned by Christianity
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1242
>>1241
This, and most things that lefties blame on the system such as poor quality of life for commoners is really the fault of poor technology. Lack of modern medicine and plumbing was the cause of most suffering, not the king.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1250
>>1236
It was different in different places and during different periods of time. The Early, High, and Late Middle Ages were very distinct from one another a countless number of ways. There were good and peaceful times and there were bad and violent times as well. There was no real "general" or "average" anything across all of medieval Europe. That being said, there are some misconceptions about the period that are just retarded.
For starters, the people of the middle ages weren't dirty as they are often portrayed. They bathed constantly, usually 2 or 3 times a day, and the high quality soap that the Germanic "barbarians" introduced to the rest of Europe was far superior to what previous civilizations had. In fact, bathing was so common among peasants, that the nobility began to view frequent bathing as a sign of being lower class. Because of this nobles only bathed once every week or two and chose to cover up their smell with perfume the rest of the time. Peasants also almost never wore the brown leather rags, like many filmmakers imagine, because leather was expensive. They were much more likely to have worn clothes made out of cheap, dyed, cloth.
Another thing that gets distorted a lot is the subject of rape in the middle ages. While it certainly did happen, as it does in every age, it was far from common. As >>1241 pointed out, lus Primae Noctis was a myth invented by the philosophers of the Enlightenment. Rape was actually much more rare than it is today, according to legal documents of time(it is possible that a lot of rapes went unreported, but that notion is purely conjectural and without any evidence.) The idea of nobles constantly going around raping peasants comes from the book "The Art of Courtly Love" by Andreas Capellanus. There's one passage where he says something along the lines of "peasants are like animals and can't feel, so it's okay to take them by force." What a lot of people leave out, however, is that the book is work of satire(if that wasn't obvious already.) Capellanus worked at the court of Marie de Champagne, who became obsessed with the concept of courtly love after reading Tristan and Iseult(this obsession can also be seen in the works of Chretien de Troyes. Specifically with the story of Lancelot and Guinevere's affair, which Marie made him write against his wishes), and he got so fed up with her obsession that he wrote the book as something for him and his monk buddies to laugh at. He even says as much in the third part of his book, but historians during the Enlightenment, and even some today, flat out ignored the third part and tried to pass the first two off as being sincere.
Lastly, because this autistic wall of text has already gone on for too long, idea that everyone was constantly sick and diseased, and that everyone was dead by age 30 is also a myth. If a person made it to the age of 21, they were expected to live until their 60s. However there were also a lot of deaths during childhood back then(the highest estimate I've read was that one out every four children died of some kind of illness during childhood, but others have put the number at about one out of every fifteen) so it's not inaccurate to say the average lifespan was around 30, it is inaccurate to say that most people were killed by disease by age 30. In fact, there was a great famine in the early 1300s because enough people weren't dying from diseases. The population was very high in the 14th century, the highest it would ever reach in Europe until the industrial era, and a pre-industrial civilization just couldn't feed that many mouths.
TL;DR: Life for the average person in the middle ages was harsher than what came after it, but better than what came before it.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1255
>>1250
I always get enraged when I see that last part with the bullshit about life expectancy.
We can see that same shit in 3rd world nations nowadays too. They produce many kids since a lot of them die and this pulls down the average lifetime.
>>1241
One point I always try to make when somebody talks about how shitty medieval times were technologically, is that they were pretty advanced. They had highly trained engineers that were building state of the art constructions and contraptions all over the place.
A big thing that always gets screwed up is when somebody says they were dumb or the church killed off any kind of science. The church and the monasteries were basically the only things that saved the cultural heritage of the classical era that eventually spawned the Renaissance. A lot of medical breakthroughs were made, like in the late middle ages the anatomy of humans was pretty much explained fully. I mean even the goddamn Pope has his private science institute where one of the best scientists of the world work in, regardless of faith or study object.
Also a lot of famous scientists were religios and christian. Like Isaac Newton or the grandfather of genetics, Gregor Mendel.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1269
>>1242
church was stopping scientific development
for example they banned autopsies
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1313
>>1269
Are you the same ancap who keeps posting poorly-defended anti-religious arguments in other threads? We don't have enough traffic on this board as it is, we don't need what little we have gummed up by your inane comments.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1314
>>1269
The Church preserved Aristotle and Plato, produced highly complex philosophy of its own, and members of it studied such things as genetics and the big bang theory. Even now, the Pope has his own personal staff of top-tier scientists.
Even some famous early scientists who weren't members of the Roman Catholic Church were motivated by their religiousity. Newton wanted to gain insight into God's blueprint of the universe, and Leibniz saw it as a religious duty to help other people, using the tools God gave us.
I guess this misunderstanding is based on economics. People have a tendency to praise technology for increased prosperity but to neglect the far more important role of capital accumulation. Some time after the Reformation, prosperity did indeed rise due to the protestant mindset and its focus on hard work and investment. But this had nothing to do with the Church holding the world back or some crap like that. Compared to the protestant reformers, it was actually more liberal and less reactionary.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1315
>>1313
>if you dont agree with me then go away!!!
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1316
>>1315
It's not about not agreeing with you, the problem is that you're a notorious low-effort poster. There is no shame in ignorance, but then at least have some humility and admit it. My advice is to go on a real, systematic study some time. It isn't easy, but once you have a knack of it, it's immensely satisfying, and people will value what you say.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1335
>>1250
>>1255
It's true that a lot of children died but surely it's also true that the death rate was higher among adults. You can't just use infant mortality to explain away *all* the far lower life expectancy.
The population's been getting older for centuries and it's not just because of fewer dead kids
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1336
>>1242
No, there was lots of inequality as well, and unlike capitalist inequality it wasn't generative whatsoever of any additional wealth, because the wealth was all in the land.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1337
>>1241
It's funny 'cause leftists don't know that there are many who are sick of their modernist claptrap. Their solution to relieve this tension is to double down on their exaggerated claims.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1352
>>1335
Of course, but my point was the idea that 90+ percent of were dead by age 30 is nonsense. Sure more people did die between ages 21-30 than today, but not enough to affect the average lifespan nearly as much as child deaths. As I said, most of the people that made it to age 21 lived to be much older than 30.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1353
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1379
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1381
>>1379
what about Avicenna?
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1382
>>1381
>Avicenna
What about him? The Muslim World became irrevelant when it came to science early on for how much We Wuz they get. Islam requires you to accept that the world depends on Allah's arbitrary whim (befitting a religion for Achmeds and Negroes). Christianity
as practiced by the likes of Aquinas maintained that God is seperate from the world and designed it to operate according to laws. Laws to be recorded.
It's not a coincedence that anti-intellectualism and post-modernism went on the rise as the hostility to the Catholic Church and overall Christianity rose over the centuries. A surefire way to troll Fedoras is to point out that science wouldn't have developed absent of European Christiandom.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1385
>>1382
>. Islam requires you to accept that the world depends on Allah's arbitrary whim (befitting a religion for Achmeds and Negroes).
there are different islams fyi
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1388
>>1385
You mean minority heresies that assimilated non-Islamic elements.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1393
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1427
>>1388
what about shia vs sunni ?
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1430
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1431
>>1236
The middle ages were certainly not perfect, but they are the best we've got. Stop falling for satanic freemason memes plz
I'll dare to make a baseless claim: The rate of suicide, mental illness and negligence of community members was far lower in the middle ages than in any modern society today.
>>1250
>For starters, the people of the middle ages weren't dirty as they are often portrayed. They bathed constantly
The origin of this meme is protestant propaganda claiming that the Church forbade washing yourself. It's a misrepresantation of the Church at one point shutting down 'bathhouses', a euphemism for brothels. In many non european languages bath house and brothel are still synonymous today.
>TL;DR: Life for the average person in the middle ages was harsher than what came after it
I don't know about that. It probably depends on what time you're refering to here exactly. If we take a look at the 16th and 17th century it was ridden by disease and war, while the late 18th and whole 19th century are the age of pauperism and famine. So I guess there was a sweet spot in the early 1700s that was indeed better than the middle ages in many paces.
Another myth I want to add is that people claim that every woman was married starting from 13 to the end of her teens. In fact the average age for marriage in the middle ages was somewhere around the early twenties for women and middle to late twenties for men. Nobles on the other hand made a practice of marrying younger girls in order to ensure their virginity and their off spring being legitimate, which does not hold true for society in general.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1436
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1449
Damn good info in this thread. Thanks guys!
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1458
>>1269
>church was stopping scientific development
That is actually a myth. The catholic church funded these scientists.
Have a read: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/23/kolmogorov-complicity-and-the-parable-of-lightning/
>Staying on the subject of Dark Age myths: what about all those scientists burned at the stake for their discoveries?
>Historical consensus declares this a myth invented by New Atheists. The Church was a great patron of science, no one believed in a flat earth, Galileo had it coming, et cetera.
http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/history/historical-apologetics/79-history/596-scientists-executed-by-the-catholic-%20church.html
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1461
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1467
>>1316
As the traffic of this board increases, the 4/pol/ posters will increase exponentially, so expect this kind of posts to pop up oftener and oftener. I have seen this thread with every board.
>>1431
Thanks for finally making me grasp where this fake information comes from. It makes sense, the French revolutionaries wanted to fling dirt at the Church and they did so by expounding how miserable and wretched an epoch where the Church is the leader can get.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1477
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1519
>>1477
Just /leftypol/ and/or /pol/ chimpingout.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1520
>>1436
>>1461
The video "communism vs. national socialism" was extremely Kosher
>Well it's okay because (((Russians))) never said sorry for it (^:
>communism was never tried in (((international courts)))
>If you murder over a hundred million of people because of malice, negligence and mismanagement it's worse than three hundred thousand jews dying as a result of supply lines being bombed
>everyone who died because of communism belonged to the same nation as the communism
<well except everyone killed in Katyń, but poles are terrible jew-eaters and frankly Soviets did the world a favor, (^: it's not as if (((Berman))) orchestrated Kielce Pogrom (dawn to dusk non-stop slaughter of jews, police was too scared to intervene) in '46 because soviets failed to pin the blame for Katyń on Germans
Sage for not medieval
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1550
>>1520
Echoposters shall be put to death by the sword, verily.
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1555
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1556
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.
No.1567
>>1556
Oh, oh! I know this one! Fallacy fallacy!
What are you two doing? Can I join in on the fun?
Disclaimer: this post and the subject matter and contents thereof - text, media, or otherwise - do not necessarily reflect the views of the 8kun administration.