ae9c17 No.675310 [View All]
Does a business in the front party in the back helicopter cruiser have a place in a modern navy? Bringing a fuck ton of coventional firepower and 8 medium helicopters seems like it would be useful for supplementing a fleet and gives it a flexible mission plan.
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1aa487 No.676537
>>676514
Not if the enemy force is stationed on one side of a river that your force has no need to capture IE your forces are making a deep push into enemy territory towards a strategically important city and you want to cut off enemy reinforcements stationed at what could have been another avenue for your attack you chose to bypass. Or perhaps the river is behind the important target and once its taken there is no need to advance as it was your campaign goal or you wish to delay an enemy counter attack while you regroup and rest after such a push. But you clearly aren't arguing in good faith anyway because you're a fucking leaf so I don't even know why I'm bothering explaining some basic sun tzu shit about keeping enemies separated from each other to dissolve their combat effectiveness.
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f65ce8 No.676559
>>676506
>something like a Kornet thermobaric carries six times the explosive filler of a 155mm shell! One eight-pack crane can wreck an area the size of two football fields easily, imagine the damage that would do to fifty or so resupply trucks, and the brigade down the line who don't get food or ammo for a week because of it
Now that is just beautiful. It would be something of a one trick pony though, only useful for engaging large enemy formations/armoured convoys from a prepared position. As sexy as the idea is it is an entirely defensive vehicle, which would have made it perfect for NATO forces in West Germany waiting for hordes of T-72's to come streaming over the border but isn't much of an argument for introducing it today.
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caa0c4 No.676587
>all this lift autism
Has anyone ever tried nigger rigging an expendable quadcopter array carrying a single ATGM for a pop-up suicide attack?
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314478 No.676593
>>676587
Speaking of lift autism why none is making a tandem-coaxial chopper to hoverlift practically everything?
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37e557 No.676595
>>676593
>>676559
Thats basically what helicopters are, one trick ponies.
>>676593
>what is ka226
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f65ce8 No.676607
>>676595
Helicopters can (however inefficiently) manage
>Reconnaissance
>Surveillance
>Ground attack
>ASW
>Medevac
>Freight transport
>Troop transport
>Air cav
Now, all of those could be done by properly built fixed wing aircraft (assuming VTOL designs were used for air cav and medevac), but that's hardly a 'one trick pony'.
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314478 No.676641
>>676595
>>what is ka226
Not a tandem one.
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caa0c4 No.676645
>>676593
On the topic of lifting, is the giant cargo airship concept a meme?
The ability to plop down and pick up tanks, troops, and materiel in the middle of nowhere seems nice in theory but most areas of military interest usually have enough conventional infrastructure nearby not to warrant the use of airships.
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5c73aa No.676646
>>676587
Not enough lift capacity. A less autistic system would be a ground-based vertical launcher that uses a small drone (or a hidden camera) for spotting and terminal laser/SACLOS guidance. It doesn't have the mobility of a helicopter, but in favorable terrain a vehicle like this would be a real nightmare to defend against.
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8dcac3 No.676958
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>676587
Not yet.
I've seen one with a RPG-26 (vid related, 6:20).
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37e557 No.677164
>>676607
The "trick" is the thing it can do better than any other vehicle design family. The American claimed that the helicopter can only do one thing better than anyone else, I proved him wrong by posting the lift.
So youre right, its hardly a one trick pony.
the pony has no tricks because trix are for kids.
>>676645
Airships are great the problem is the gas which fills them is incredibly expensive and thats why airships arent built anymore. Idiots are just terrified of hydrogen because they think an airship caught fire due to hydrogen a million years ago.
Protip: Hydrogen doesnt burn visibly yet the hindenburg fire was very visible. It was made of steel, wood and canvas painted with THERMITE PAINT. The thermite ignited not the hydrogen.
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219779 No.677167
>>677164
>Thermite paint
I call bullshit. Nobody is that stupid to paint something with fucking thermite.
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ce4c24 No.677187
>>677167
>>677164
If it had enough Oxidizer and Fuel to destroy the whole plane it would've been to heavy to fly. However, it didn't need that much to start the disaster. Thermite burns hot enough to get to the flashpoint of Hydrogen (which is fucking 500degrees C or 932 degrees of cousin Fucking).
Think about it like this, why would they use Hydrogen fuel cells in cars? Because it's not only got a high autoignition temperature, but with it under pressure it will cool around the hole and give you a temporary "autoseal" with the icing it will do under decompression.
>>675324
I've had an ideal conventional Flotilla similar to this. Using a Gyrodyne Carrier with conventional attack subs that have missiles in similar size to the LORA/Iskander/Oka missiles in VLS cells with about 6 125kg warheads with their own guidance system, anti-ship missiles with decent range that can be mounted on the gyrodynes as well as light and super-cavitating torpedoes and so on. Requires a Gyrodyne Carrier, Conventional Submarine with AIP and wired drone periscopes (to guide the super-cavitating torpedoes), and a few Missile boats with air cover from a nearby airbase or Conventional Carrier. So you deny the Air, Surface and Undersea.
>>676382
>>676399
Seadragon seems more viable for both launching satellites and 500kg conventional warhead spam
>>676044
>Smaller Satellites
Yes, it makes them harder to hit, however, they might not have as strong a signal to send to who needs it. If it is something as simple as reconnaissance over an area, they go for it. For anything that is supposed to last about a decade and a half, it's useless.
>>676152
>I don't get what's the point of this.
>I mean the smaller and the closer you make satellites the sooner they're gonna come down and burn.
Imagine this, you use a Cruiser that has the equivalent to sounding rockets on it that launch these small satellites for SIGINT, ELINT and Visual, it only needs to last for the operation and it isn't something that you can chart the position of because it is only launched when needed. It might last a few weeks or a couple of months, but you might not need it for that long. The closer you are to the surface as well gives you a clearer picture and lower TX power needed so there's less of a chance for the signal intercept, and since you can launch on the fly you can have any seed for FHSS or any key for your encrypted signal.
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b96ec9 No.677193
>>677187
>a Cruiser that has the equivalent to sounding rockets on it that launch these small satellites
Whenever I read about small satellites I think of that old study by the US Navy about launhing anti-satellite projectiles from a 16" gun.
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9fbfb4 No.677207
>>676593
Speaking off there is a leaked picture from a Kamov assembly hall with a new thing (and an older image of a display model that looks like it).
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ce4c24 No.677209
>>676593
>>677207
huh, I forgot to address this.
Concentric shafts are a bitch to deal with within turbine engines, with Rotors it's even more of a bitch because there's more material to balance with the length of the blades. You can go the planetary gear method but that's even more complications to deal with.
>>677207
huh, looks like something in the UH-60/S-70 or Mi-8/Mi-17 weight class.
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f65ce8 No.677216
>>677167
>Nobody is that stupid to paint something with fucking thermite.
You do know about the Germans, right?
>>677193
>anti-satellite projectiles from a 16" gun
A self propelled projectile given a boost from the gun? Or actually a 16" artillery shell designed to hit satellites from sea level?
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b96ec9 No.677223
>>677216
>A self propelled projectile given a boost from the gun?
Yes, basically a barrel-launched missile, just quite a lot bigger than what we are used two. There were two concepts, a rocket-booster and a scramjet. And the whole thing was written in the 70s or 80s.
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f65ce8 No.677254
>>677223
>basically a barrel-launched missile
That makes a lot more sense. As hard as the idea of ground based anti-sat flak gets me it would probably be something that would only be of interest to autists.
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5c73aa No.677284
>>677164
So your evidence that the aluminum paint (autoignition temperature: 760C) ignited before the hydrogen (autoignition temperature: ~540C) is that nobody reported seeing a nearly invisible hydrogen flame through the much brighter canvas, wood and diesel flames that were raging by the time the fire reached the exterior.
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1aa487 No.677321
>>677164
>I ignored the arguments and claimed I didn't have to listen to them because I was right and he was wrong
The fucking leaf, ladies and gentlemen.
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4b6a0e No.677532
>>675942
what if someone took the arsenal ship idea and applied it to a container ship?
making use of airborne radar targeting assets to fire enough anti ship missiles to overwhelm the enemy point defence batteries.
making use of onboard and helicopter-mounted sensors to detect and engage submarines with VLS-launched torpedoes.
land-attack cruise missile spam.
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af9059 No.677533
>>676036
It would probably be cheaper than a satellite since you aren't spending millions of dollars just on the rocket.
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34948e No.677579
>>675310
The flight deck cruiser is my favorite ship.
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d7d290 No.677580
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>675310
Are choppers outdated? No one has replaced it with VTOL planes yet.
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34948e No.677581
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1aa487 No.677627
>>677533
But it doesn't require a space program to shoot down a blimp with a high altitude fighter. Its also again, not an international atrocity to shoot down a blimp like how it is to hit something in orbit. A satellite can also cover a lot more ground. So if you are engaged in a global war the satellite is better. If you are against sand durkas and don't already have a fleet of sats in orbit then the blimp is probably well and good enough.
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1ab303 No.677643
>>677627
But what if the Blimp is actually a rigid airship with a 30-ton cargo bay filled with nuclear-armed cruise missiles and 6 CIWS along the hull?
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404983 No.677644
>>677284
>fire reached the exterior
Retard there wasnt enough oxygen and hydrogen inside the airship to sustain any kind of flame. The only way the hydrogen COULD have burned is if the outer skin was removed.
Even then the hydrogen was split into bags and youd only get one bag losing its hydrogen through combustion, the fire literally couldnt exist uness some extremely hot burning substance stripped the skin away and punctured all of the hydrogen cells.
As to how thermite ignoted…. I dont know nigger maybe flying a metal bubble through a thunderstorm then attaching it to a lightning pole may just have created a spark.
I hate stupid people.
You literally fucked the planet out of the most efficient mode of transportation because youre an ignorant drooling village peasant scared of his shadow.
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d88af2 No.677659
>>677581
Bit of a glass cannon surely?
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af9059 No.677711
>>677627
Space programs aren't a rare thing these days. I'll give you politics but that's really the only thing keeping satellites safe. As for covering more ground, that can be a good thing or a bad thing; if you want consistent coverage of a single area you need a non-standard orbit and/or a whole lot of satellites, either of which will add an extra zero to your launch costs.
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c8bb1d No.678002
>>677644
>The only way the hydrogen COULD have burned is if the outer skin was removed.
Simple leak + St. Elmo's fire is sure as fuck more likely to have started a fire.
They knew hydrogen on massive airships was a bad idea, the Hindenburg itself was meant to use helium (which the Germans could never buy due to the economical blockade-of-germany-that-totally-didn't-happen-for-years-before-the-war).
Not because the cells themselves were at risk, but because those cells weren't well pressure-sealed, so leaky release of hydrogen was fairly common.
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afb333 No.684692
>>677187
That would be an excellent fleet for protecting coast hopping operation.
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916930 No.684693
>>675771
Seriously though, do they count?
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afb333 No.684696
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>678002
Literally nothing else makes the same burning pattern as seen in the visual records. This is a controlled burn of the skin. If there was enough oxygen to do this, the hydrogen would have exploded, not burned like this.
Don't believe me, try it yourself. Make a wire frame, fill it with some hydrogen (you can get it by running electricity through water). Strike it with a high voltage spike like the lightning which was seen impacting the Hindenburg. The hydrogen can't all react with nonexistant oxygen at the same time and do a controlled burn of the skin.
Instead, what happens is that the hydrogen leaks out of the ONE hole on the ships skin, and interacts with air which is outside the vessel. It slowly burns until and the airship itself just reduces altitude through the burn until it hits the ground.
From my own personal experiment the impact might even be survivable if there is an escape capsule with coamings which can crumple and absorb the impact.
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131ee7 No.684726
>>684696
You're forgetting one important detail, the fact that Hindenburg's skin was made out of literal rocket fuel.
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5c8267 No.685069
>>684696
>[Tragedy Name] was an inside job!.jpg
Who was supposed to benefit from this one then?
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afb333 No.685115
>>685069
>x accident happened for z reason, not y reason
>OH MY GOD HES TALKING ABOUT CONSPIRACY THEORIES BAN ALEX JONES ORANGE MAN BAD RUSSIAN AGENT
That sounds like a normal reaction.
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5c73aa No.685134
>>684696
Zeppelins had an unpressurized hull with soft gasbags suspended in the middle. The hull had a series of vents on the bow and stern specifically to prevent leaks from causing a dangerous hydrogen buildup over time. Most eyewitness accounts are consistent with the skin fire starting around one of the aft vents, which is consistent with the most common explanation: a gasbag ruptures during landing, a spark or St. Elmo's fire near the aft vent causes a hydrogen fire, which ignites the skin, which exposes more hydrogen to oxygen and sets off a chain reaction.
>Strike it with a high voltage spike like the lightning which was seen impacting the Hindenburg
Now you're just making shit up to fit your narrative.
>>685115
You started talking about "controlled burns" out of nowhere, even I got confused.
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afb333 No.685147
>>685134
>>684726
>You started talking about "controlled burns" out of nowhere, even I got confused.
If Hydrogen itself was the cause of that much burning, it would have exploded not burned in a controlled manner - slowly progressing over the skin.
My point is that if the skin wasn't flammable the Hindenburg would not have gone down engulfed in flames. They painted it with an aluminum cellulose acetate bytrate and iron oxide paint, which is fucking great for anti corrosion and preventing suns rays from changing the volume of the hydrogen, but it is basically explosive.
If the skin was fire resistant and this same sequence of events happened
>a gasbag ruptures during landing, a spark or St. Elmo's fire near the aft vent causes a hydrogen fire, which ignites the skin, which exposes more hydrogen to oxygen and sets off a chain reaction.
And you take out
>which ignites the skin
All that happens is the hydrogen from the one gas bag slowly burns out of the port and combines with oxygen until its gone. Rest of the gas bags being still full, it would even have been airworthy.
>Now you're just making shit up to fit your narrative.
The fire started from the rear and top, not the front and bottom which is where the mooring point was. It can't have been St. Elmos fire at the mooring point. What clearly happened is that the airship built up a charge traveling through the atmosphere, landed and once the airship was moored to a great steel spike in the ground, it became a PART of a freaking lightning rod because the skin was infused with iron oxide to protect it from UV rays.
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5c73aa No.685223
>>685147
FUCK IT, TIME FOR ALLCAPS
>If Hydrogen itself was the cause of that much burning, it would have exploded not burned
THAT'S BECAUSE A RUPTURED GASBAG DOESN'T JUST INSTANTANEOUSLY DIFFUSE INTO A PERFECT FUEL-AIR MIX, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE ONLY VENT IS CURRENTLY ON FIRE. COME ON NIGGER I SHOULDN'T NEED TO EXPLAIN ALL THIS.
>My point is that if the skin wasn't flammable the Hindenburg would not have gone down engulfed in flames.
TELL ME MORE ABOUT THIS MAGICAL SUBSTANCE THAT CAN SURVIVE CLOSE PROXIMITY TO HYDROGEN FIRES WITHOUT BURNING OR MELTING, WHILE ALSO BEING AIRTIGHT AND LIGHT ENOUGH TO FIT ON A ZEPPELIN.
>but it is basically explosive.
NO YOU RETARD, EVEN IF THE IRON AND ALUMINUM PAINTS WERE ON THE SAME LAYER (THEY WEREN'T) THE FUEL-OXIDIZER RATIO IS SUPER FUCKING LEAN AND NOT NEARLY ENOUGH TO ACCOUNT FOR THE FIRE'S SPREAD BY ITSELF. AND IN ORDER FOR THE TWO TO MIX IN THE FIRST PLACE, YOU NEED A SUSTAINED HEAT SOURCE TO COMBUST OR MELT THE UNDERLYING POLYMER, I.E. A HYDROGEN FIRE.
>It can't have been St. Elmos fire at the mooring point
THEN IT'S A GOOD THING THAT THE WITNESS WHO SAW THE ST. ELMO'S FIRE REPORTED SEEING IT ON TOP OF THE HULL, AND THE ENGINEERS WHO DESIGNED THE DAMN THING CONSIDERED STATIC DISCHARGE AS BEING LIKELY TO OCCUR AT ANY POINT ALONG THE HULL.
>it became a PART of a freaking lightning rod
AH YES, INVISIBLE LIGHTNING, THE GREAT KILLER OF ZEPPELINS (UNLESS THEY WERE HELIUM-FILLED, IN WHICH CASE THE SAME "LITERAL THERMITE SKIN" NEVER SEEMED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS FOR SOME MYSTERIOUS REASON).
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afb333 No.685249
>>685223
What is your conjecture? That hydrogen is more dangerous than a noble gas? Well of course it is you blithering idiot, anything used to lift an airship is either ridiculously expensive or rare noble gas, a toxic volatile, or a flammable volatile. A brief list of lifting gasses for airships - hydrogen, helium, methane, hydrogen fluoride, ammonia, acetylene, hydrogen cyanide, diborane, ethylene and hot air. Of that list even hot air is more reactive than helium, but thats not the point. Helium hasnt caught on because its difficult to produce, rare and expensive.
Helium not being a serious choice, it leaves us with hydrogen and methane. Hydrogen is only slightly more expensive than methane but it has more lifting power than helium and twice as much lifting power as methane. This means 2x less hydrogen is needed for the same job, so if and when a fire occurs it is less destructive than a methane fire.
TODAY WE REGULARLY USE METHANE AS A LIFTING GAS BUT YOUR OVARIAN HYSTERIA PREVENTS US FROM USING A SUPERIOR SAFER ALTERNATIVE.
Go fuck yourself. People like you belong in the bog with the rest of crabs holding humanity back.
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afb333 No.685251
By the way for comparison purposes helium costs 3x as much as hydrogen. Helium also has state rationing rules because science labs use it so cost isnt the only factor to getting some. In war time its easy to wipe out an enemys helium reserve whereas it would be impossible to do the same for a hydrogen reserve since an airship that landed on water could literally use solar power to refil its tanks.
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d6e215 No.687649
>>675394
If only we had competent people and governments to see that come true. But I do agree on the planefu aspect.
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d4a6ee No.687683
>>687649
>If only we had competent people and governments
Surely the law of averages would have given us at least one example of a competent government by now?
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087a0a No.687710
>>685251
Oh and I forgot to mention, hydrogen has the benefit that no one can bomb your source of it.
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1aa487 No.687752
>>687683
If competent governments exist then why do libertarians also exist?
CHECKMATE, ROADS!
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0e10bd No.688416
>>676018
Wouldn't the missile roast the conning tower when it launches off the sub?
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135b07 No.688417
>>677627
Blimps don't require $1M/kg for every 10km of altitude. You just fill a baloon with hydrogen and have them fly at double an airliner's maximum altitude, which is way above the maximum altitude for the vast majority of SAMs, especially easily transportable ones like MANPADs. If the enemy shoots an $1M S-400 to bring down your $0.3M air filled condom guess who wins?
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135b07 No.688418
>>687683
Welp, as much as they suck they sure seem more successful than libertarian societies solely by managing to exist.
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