/k/ - Weapons

He misjudged the ability of his quartermaster corps to feed an army of unprecedented size, an army which was then blasted apart by a plague of typhus, and which was unable to sustain itself by foraging, as was the convention at the time, because a military force more numerous than the entirety of Paris was advancing along two narrow routes through farms that barely produced enough to keep their owners at subsistence level already.

He did learn from Charles; he took a larger force than he thought he would need to account for attrition, he made preperations to supplement foraging with hardtack and liquor shipped to the front from back home, and he had planned that the Grand Army would winter in Moscow, or, in an emergency, in Vilnus.

The problem was that no one had ever led an army of that size before, he was confronting logistics problems that no one had ever dealt with or even encountered before, he had to deal with a deadly plague whilst in hostile territory, and he didn't have an accurate picture of rural Russia.

For example, Vilnus was just too small to accomodate the Grand Army, and the outlying areas were incredibly backwards by Western European standards and couldn't provide enough food, so thousands of troopers starved or froze when they tried to quarter there during the Autumn and early Winter of 1812.

The earlier Swedish invasion was by a much smaller force that was already accustomed to operating in rural Finland, it did not encounter any serious illnesses to the extent that Napoleon did, and you'll notice that Napoleon planned for Winter quarters in established cities to deal with the extreme cold before the Russians burned Moscow and began sending Cossacks to attack the French army corps in the dead of Winter.

>>666876

It was a choice between invading Russia and being invaded by russians. And if you get invaded by russians, you're going to get rekt by their sheer numbers.

>>666887

>Russians marching through Europe on foot

His justification for invading Russia wasn't about being invaded by the Russians, but that they broke the Continental embargo against the British.

Genuine miscalculation.

>>666879

Actually, the issue wasn't low yields of food, but the fact Russians utilised scorched earth. Napoleon's army arrived to find burnt down countryside – that's why they couldn't live off the land. Even low-yield fields would have been able to feed the army reasonably well (after all, the peasants needed to harvest enough to keep them fed all year + enough to pay taxes, and thus needed sizeable stocks), but Napoleon was left with very, very little instead. Then he arrived in Moscow and saw an essentially empty city where the remaining denizens themselves were left starving, so again, nothing to feed the troops with. And then he had to march back the same way, over a territory that had been scorched and pillaged once already.

>>666876

To be fair, Russians acted like absolute madmen – when going to war, you do not expect the enemy to do everything in his power to avoid a battle while devastating his own nation just to stop you from capturing anything of value. Moscow is the greatest example of this – Napoleon marches there, thinking he'll finally find some prize to fight over, instead finding an empty city where everything of value was already carted away. That's not the kind of shit one would expect. That's not the kind of shit you can deal with when on limited supplies and bleeding attrition. Charles XII didn't deal with anything on this scale - Russians fought plenty of battles against him and he got fucked by them destroying his supply trains more than by scorch earth tactics (although those have been used too). And above all, Russians didn't scorch earth a major fucking city back then. I don't think anyone did that before or after, actually, it's just so insane. No wonder Napoleon didn't expect that; nobody would.

Napoleon invaded Tartaria, not Russia. The Russians fought alongside him against Tartaria. History is a lie, Napoleon told everyone that himself.

>>666914

>>666879

This.

The perfidious anglo like to joke on Napoleon pride but it was entirely justified, by that point he had been bitch-slapping "coalitions" for twenty years pretty much non-stop despite usually having the numbers against him. He thought he could defeat any army on land without much effort and he was probably right.

Which is why, after a couple of initial crushing defeats in the Baltic/Poland area, the Russians that had the numbers to fight 1vs1, decided it was wiser to adopt a strategy concentrating on NOT fighting him.

Add the perfectly standard misconception for that era that "The Russians will negotiate if we take Moscow" which was the whole plan and largely worked until the Russians BURN IT DOWN THEMSELVES as a final gigantic "fuck you", which is an insane display of self-sacrifice by any era standard and you have the reason for the defeat.

Moscow was nuked, not burned, btw.

>>666974

The Russian tactic was pretty genius and it's a shame it's not talked about more often. It's like a completely different paradigm of thought. The only similar example I know of was during the Punic wars, when Romans left Hannibal to screech impotently in the countryside while they all holed up in fortified cities that they knew he didn't have the power to take. Giving the enemy free reign in areas that don't matter while the valuable targets are protected, and making time be on your side – for Romans it was their armies in Africa, for Russians it was attrition. Only unlike Romans, Russians actually managed to move the fucking targets away and out of reach. In a way, they acted in a similar manner during WW2, when they moved their industries back this way, again relying on the enemy to exhaust himself without managing to capture things of actual value.

>>666977

>>666974

>The Russian tactic was pretty genius and it's a shame it's not talked about more often.

I would say its a very important lesson for nuclear war >>666976 My opinion is nuclear Weapons are the most useful on the defense, as area denial and to wipe out large invading forces. However, to use them effectively would require similar tactics to the Russians and Romans. A willingness to sacrifice and an ability to move vital resources.

Relevant

>>666992

>My opinion is nuclear Weapons are the most useful on the defense

What? No. You fire them on enemy industrial centres (they really cannot move those out of the way faster than a missile flies) and that's it, the war is over as the enemy economy is obliterated, the people are rioting, the soldiers desert so that they can go home and check up on family, etc. Then the enemy fires his nukes on your industrial centres and you face the same situation.

>>667014

>(they really cannot move those out of the way faster than a missile flies)

The speed of the missile doesn't matter, every war has a lead up period before it when both sides know conflict is coming, and you do not want to waste missiles on empty cities based on outdated information, IE napoleon in moscow. Furthermore counter-value strikes assume you do not want that stuff yourself. How little industry the enemy has does not matter if their tanks are parked outside yours.

>>666888

Russians sure as hell didn't have any overwhelming trouble marching to France and Italy on foot.

>>667070

>The speed of the missile doesn't matter, every war has a lead up period before it when both sides know conflict is coming

Moving a fucking industrial base isn't going to be all hush hush no matter what you do. For one, it's a massive operation, for two, you just need to ask the local retard why the fuck is he not at work today

<"well, guv'nah, they started carting shit away, I'm unemployed now"

>How little industry the enemy has does not matter if their tanks are parked outside yours

Of fucking course it does. You think the soldiers manning those tanks are going to fight you if they just heard that their homeland got consumed by nuclear fire and the money they are paid now may as well be monopoly money because it became worthless? That they'll try to conquer new lands when their own fucking home is destroyed? That they'll fight for a government that will get overthrown before the week is over?

>>667083

Promises of Vengeance and Loot were what ran army only 3 centuries ago.

Also statistical studies show democratic governments are rarely overthrown from losing wars. They are not going to be toppled in the midst of this. Nukes will infuriate the population, not against the government but against the enemy. Soldiers with no pay and Ashes at home will fight like demons and loot anything not nailed down.

>>667083

*Promises of vengeance and loot where what ran armies only 3 centuries ago.

Also statistical studies show democratic governments are rarely overthrown from losing wars. They are not going to be toppled in the midst of one. Nukes will infuriate the population, not against the government, but against the enemy. Soldiers with no pay and ashes at home will fight like demons and loot anything not nailed down.

>>667086

>Promises of Vengeance and Loot were what ran army only 3 centuries ago.

Not enough of them will care about vengeance to matter and loot is only valuable if you have a home where you can spend it. Not to mention this isn't three centuries ago where every peasant stored his money underneath his strawbed – you ain't gonna find shit unless you are lucky enough to be the first to look the local jewellery shop, and I can't imagine a soldier hauling a plasma TV halfway over the world or similar.

>Also statistical studies show democratic governments are rarely overthrown from losing wars.

If you think a government that brings nukes falling down on its population is gonna survive, you have another thing coming. And losing actually important wars had always led to major political earthquakes.

>Nukes will infuriate the population, not against the government but against the enemy. Soldiers with no pay and Ashes at home will fight like demons and loot anything not nailed down.

Sure, keep believing that, I'm sure you'll write a cool war anime someday. Meanwhile, in real life, 90% of the soldiers would desert before the week was over because they can't be arsed to risk their life for free and because they are far more interested in the wellbeing of their nuked family than in geopolitical interests of their country, which are all moot anyway now as it had been left eviscerated and the old goals no longer apply. Even if they did carry onwards somehow, they'd run out of ammo, fuel, and provisions pretty damn soon, because guess what, the industry and logistics network meant to produce and deliver those things to the front is no longer in existence.

The better question is why did he fight so many coalitions?

Why couldn't he seal the deal?

Was he destined to lose?

>>667091

>t. loser living in his parents' basement

>>667092

Brits wouldn't let him.

In a way, Napoleon is sort of pre-World War since its goal is the same, a new breakaway empire (France Empire, 1st Reich, 3rd Reich) decide to not play balls with the Brits.

World war follows.

>>667098

>2nd Reich*

>>666977

>The only similar example I know of was during the Punic wars, when Romans left Hannibal to screech impotently in the countryside while they all holed up in fortified cities that they knew he didn't have the power to take.

IIRC the Vietnamese also did something similar when the Mongols tried to invade Vietnam.

>>667182

Vietnamese did the reverse actually, they empty their castles, let the mongols occupy empty castles, wait for them to leave and attack.

>>667083

>Moving a fucking industrial base isn't going to be all hush hush no matter what you do.

Germany was able to hide their entire war production underground during WW2, to the point that the Allied bombing of Germany had no effect on it.

The same was done during the Cold War in any Country that had a stake in it, making the infrastructure and tools needed for the war nuclear bomb proof became standard.

> Meanwhile, in real life, 90% of the soldiers would desert before the week was over…

They wouldn't, because most Soldiers fear their own side more than the enemy or adverse conditions.

In general it takes years of maltreatment for Soldiers to grow the balls to rebel.

>>667092

Napoleon was the leader of Revolutionary France, all the Royals in Europe wanted to see it destroyed.

>>667235

Napoleon was the Empereur of the new French Empire, none of that cucked revolutionary France bullshit.

If they have stuck with ol' Robbie, we would have a 10 days week.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_calendar

>>667237

>expecting much from /k/ in the first place

>>667235

>during WW2

Yeah, but a missile takes how long from launch to impact? A few hours at most.

>The same was done during the Cold War in any Country that had a stake in it, making the infrastructure and tools needed for the war nuclear bomb proof became standard.

Can you actually provide an example of how, say, General Motors had a nuke-proof assembly line? Because what you're saying sounds like bullshit. If someone nuked Detroit back when it wasn't a nigger-infested shithole but a major industrial centre, you can bet your ass it'd hurt US economy a lot. Now imagine 100 such Detroits got nuked within the span of one evening – the whole country would be in tatters.

>most Soldiers fear their own side more than the enemy

What "their side"? Their country would instantly become a third world shithole since millions would be dead, little would be produced, food would be running out, and money would have less value that toilet paper. What can such a "force" do to you? Think anybody would have time or means or will to track some soldier that deserted? That the chain of command would remain relevant? That anybody at all would actually still care about the war in such a situation, when the enemy got nucleary fucked just as bad as you did? The biggest extent of "military operations" would be units that decided to go rogue and raid enemy towns for loot.

bump

>>666943

I am willing to believe this.

>>667091

>. Meanwhile, in real life, 90% of the soldiers would desert before the week was over because they can't be arsed to risk their life for free and because they are far more interested in the wellbeing of their nuked family than in geopolitical interests of their country

Poor Czechnya… So close yet so far from the Balkans.

>>666976

>Moscow was nuked, not burned, btw.

Excuse me what? Am I in the right timeline?

>>666974

>"The Russians will negotiate if we take Moscow"

An illusion that exists until today, i remember some burger air force general claiming if NATO nuke moscow the russians will surrender. Same illusion persisted over Baghdad and Belgrade. People were so hyped to take baghdad and bush went to say MISSION ACCOMPLISHED but the war lasted for 10 more years until US withdrew in humiliation.

Its a dumb persons view of geopolitics, or an instinct evolved from 10,000 years of human warfare where the enemy only HAD one city.

>>667074

Napoleonic army was less than 5% on horseback, only supplies were towed by horse. Russians couldnt do the same thing because they didnt have as many horses, which meant their armies would have to walk to France…. While dragging a 1.5 tonne cart of supplies. WWII was different, people mass produced horses (literally jacked off a stallion and fistfucked a 1000 mares with his sperm) until a third of all armies were on horse or supplies drawn by them, and the rest were on trucks. Its why people who track horse geneologies start at WWII, its useless to go much before that.

>>685753

Well that depends on how you answer this question: who won the second American civil war?

>>666943

The who Tartaria things sounds cool, but I don't really get it. Why were they "erased from the history books," and did this obscure subject explode on image boards and so on this year?

>>667194

Vietnamese are hard as fuck. Much respect to them.

>>685770

The Anglo-Saxon northern states won it when they defeated the southern Norman cavaliers.

>>666876

>What was Napoleon thinking

Ooga booga, gib Europe.

>>685770

That's a trick question. There were no American civil wars. What we call the civil war was actually a war to liberate Norumbega from the Dutch.

>>685770

>who won the second American civil war?

The Hebrews.

>>685782

That's a very educated answer.