No.1042546 [Last50 Posts]
You know maybe its because I'm just older and tired but I'm real sick of seeing people try to defend villains, trying to make them more complex when they almost always end up as dindu nuffins. I miss just straight up comically bad assholes who own their shit because for all you want to go on about complexity and repeatability some people are just cunts who enjoy being cunts.
What pieces of /co/ related media present the need for a hero to redeem someone as a negative and selfish desire?
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No.1042550
Because big two comics rely on stories that just go on forever. Sure they may reboot things every so often but it's still always the same shit. So having characters go through permanent changes means they can't do their forever format. Also means writers have to actually, y'know, write. It's all laziness and incompetence. Even when writers attempt something like a redemption arc, it always goes back to the status quo eventually.
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No.1042552
There is a difference between justification for their villainy and redemption.
Of course a sob story is now a cliche but a villain that does what he does because of his set ideals and reasoning is always good. That doesn't mean he is redeemable, only that he has a right idea mixed in with the bad. Ultimately a villain should serve to change the protagonists and/or the world. I'm more interested in a story where the ideals of a villain rub off really hard on the protagonist.
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No.1042553
Most of, if not all, villains in fiction are irredemable and the only thing they deserve is being shot in the head.
Just kill them all.
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No.1042555
Part of it is the usual issue of writer projection. Another part is that camp villiany is considered out of vogue for anything that isn't either a parody, a homage, or something aimed at children.
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No.1042562
>>1042546
>Why are writers so incompetent when it comes to redemption arcs?
People without morals can't understand the concept of redemption.
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No.1042563
Wanna know what's worse than half-assed redemption arcs? Dindus!
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No.1042591
If they're truly a villain, they'll turn down redemption arc the moment they're offered.
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No.1042619
>>1042591
Or used it to their advantage to fuck everyone over when they all truly believe they've changed.
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No.1042624
Leftists (most writers) don't believe in redemption, that's why apologizing never works, they just put it in because that's expected of them.
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No.1042633
>>1042546
The tumblr argument, where I'm sure this image came from, because who the fuck cares what Lisa has to say, is that if a character is racist or problematic, that they deserve eternal suffering. As in, you cannot redeem or "humanize" a nazi, or if a character is shown as being prejudiced, then they cannot be fixed. Conversely, they love shitty characters like Killmonger who actually have awful motivations and are shown to be worse than your average villain, but because he's an uppity nigger who thinks he should be able to rule the world, they feel that he doesn't need redeeming because he did nothing wrong in their eyes (except he did everything wrong and he was a terrible character and a boring villain)
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No.1042671
>>1042546
They've only ever read harry potter.
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No.1042679
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No.1042694
>>1042679
Maleficent din du nothing.
Sleeping beauty needed to check WASP privilege.
Shieeet.
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No.1042711
>>1042679
Maleficent was a good girl who actually cared about sleeping beauty more than her father.
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No.1042806
>>1042694
>Maleficent din du nothing
But she isn't black.
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No.1042918
>>1042711
I get the feeling the script was some fanfiction by the studio exec's 13 year old daughter because it feels like it.
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No.1044184
Because hack writers tend to have problems with nuance and don't understanding the story mechanics of the what they are mimicking. Pulling off a redemption arc well requires setup and enough time so the change doesn't seem erratic.
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No.1044186
Zuko has the best redemption arc in western animation. It is impossible to do a better one but that doesn't mean people can't try.
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No.1044187
>>1044186
They can't try because they're all hacks who don't know how to write characters because they can't compromise their own moral grandstandings.
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No.1044199
>>1044187
I really does go down to the fact that every bad guy is just a projection of no no for writters now and not actual people have some sort of justification or reason for what they do beside muh -ism.
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No.1044208
A proper redemption arc requires a couple of key things. Empathy. Self-reflection. Forgiveness.
And yeah, straight up villain is always better then a dindu story.
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No.1051891
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No.1051895
Mary Sue SJWs cant have redemption arcs because they can do no wrong and thus need no redeeming.
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No.1051909
One of the worst cases is when there is literally no arc and the villain is redeemed offscreen.
A prime example is Kevin 11 from Ben 10. In the sequel series, Kevin is automatically one of the good guys when the last time he was on Ben 10, he was a future supervillain called Kevin 11,000. In the present, he was seen trying to kill both Ben and Gwen.
It actually would have been better had there been a TV movie about him achieving redemption and revealing that the future is simply an alternate timeline and not a guarantee for any of the present time characters.
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No.1051914
>>1044208
A moustache-twirling villain is on par with a dindu IMHO. It is OK in cartoons and comics aimed at a younger audience, but if it is aimed at an audience older than teens, it can easily come off as cheap.
Darth Vader in the OT started out as a typical evildooer, but by the end of RotJ, he had evolved into something much more complex and entertaining to watch.
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No.1051920
>>1051914
>A moustache-twirling villain is on par with a dindu IMHO. It is OK in cartoons and comics aimed at a younger audience, but if it is aimed at an audience older than teens, it can easily come off as cheap.
>Samurai Jack, a series that was aimed at an older audience, had as a main villain a creature that was pure evil and did things solely to make others suffer
Your logic is flawed.
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No.1051922
>>1051920
Samurai Jack is for kids and overrated as fuck. Your taste is shit.
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No.1051923
>>1051914
Great Tier/Elder God Tier is the professor from that terrible show "The Flash". He wanted to, in the words of the heros, "lobotomize an entire generation". This is so untrue. He wished to bring enlightenment and knowledge to the whole world.
The CW sucks. The only reason I watched "The Flash" is due to my younger brother enjoying it. I was rooting for DeVoe the entire time. These millennial douche-bag retards ended his truth because "Oh no, people will be 'controlled' for a single generation. Civil Rights Now!
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No.1051924
>>1051920
>>1051922
Sometimes people are just Jewish
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No.1051929
>>1042546
Here's what I can't stand OP, it's irredeemable villains that they try redeeming that pisses me the fuck off.
First off
>nb4 you bought it you deserve it
Case in point: These chucklefucks
>Couple of dindus that have literally the worst taste of music in existence and can't handle a bandit faction properly that only got this far because everyone in the universe is retarded.
>Murder literally anyone they think is a "problem"
>Or just murder anyone that's remotely helpful
>Employ tactics that ensure that not only they are hated but they are absolutely despicable
>"It's not our fault we're bad our dad was bad our mom wanted us to be good" falls entirely short when you employ
TRAINING DOGS TO BE SUICIDE BOMBERS
Screenwriting 101, if you want to tell the audience that a certain character is pure evil and beyond redemption, you have them kill a cute animal like a dog.
>End of their boss fight gives them a shitty "sappy" cutscene that makes no sense because both of them are literally at opposite ends of the area you fight them and they somehow manage to get together.
>Cutscene is way too long and at this point of the game you've checked out as you're spamming "F" to kick one of them to death because apparently you have an option of letting the one that doesn't die but is just wounded live
>Literally everything they've done could have been avoided if they cut a deal with the protag's forgettable faction at the very beginning instead of trying to kill them at the start.
And don't get me started on the "actual" final boss because that fight was a fucking joke both in build up and payoff. No you're not going to make me feel anything for a character that's been in MAYBE 3 cutscenes and I can't even remember their name, but their whole character arc boils down to "WAAA I NOT LEADER OF STUPID PEOPLE WAA WAA I NO GET SUPER POWERS WAAA DADDY LEFT ME WAA WAA WOO WOO I EAT APPLE NOW AND TURN INTO SHADOW SASQUATCH"
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No.1051970
>>1042552
Not really, villain justification isn't always needed or required or even workable. Despite what moral relativists want you to think, very, very few criminals in the world have true justifications for their motives and don't understand that what they are doing is wrong. They do understand, they just don't give a crap. They picked the path of villainy and they are sticking with it to the bitter end.
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No.1051976
>>1051914
>elder god tier
That sounds like 12 year-old's edgy fanfiction-tier writing because the villain wears cool suits and has a badass voice, so they must actually be in the right all along because heroes are lame and stupid.
>shit tier
>AKA the cause of 99% of human conflict ever
If anything, this should be Ultimate God Tier when written well, because it can lead to an exploration of the nature of evil within human hearts and motivation for bad deeds better than any other type of villainy, since it relates closer to real life.
>muh Darth Vader redempshuun
Darth Vader has the shittiest and most hilariously stupid redemption arc in all of Western media. The first movie had him as basically an evil wizard samurai with a keen appreciation for the arcane, Empire had him as someone keen to supplant the Emperor and become top dog, Return basically does a 180 on his character and makes him "not so bad all along" outta fucking nowhere.
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No.1051979
>>1051976
To elaborate further, that list of sticky notes by Aaron Ehasz you posted actually goes against your point, since Ehasz was specifically poo-pooing the idea of sympathetic villains being the best.
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No.1052016
>>1051976
>Return basically does a 180 on his character and makes him "not so bad all along" outta fucking nowhere.
In Return he's considered so far gone that no one except Luke, not even Vader himself, believes he's redeemable. In the end, he nearly lets Luke get killed before his fatherly feelings (which were established in Empire) lead him to sacrifice his own life to save his son.
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No.1052019
>>1051929
if they were white, they'd never be given a redemption story.
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No.1052021
>>1051914
Whoever made the first list says Legend of Korra is a good show for sure.
>>1051976
It's just the modern/liberal/post-christian/rousseau-like narrative that man is fundamentally "good" and he only commits ill deeds from not knowing what he's doing or it being society's fault or he's really trying to save the world in the edgiest way there is and it actually working. Not from a predatory drive in himself. Not from seeing that taking is more way more cool than sharing.
You need to remember that having abandoned Christianity progs don't really have much of an answer for man's depravity and where it roots in. They reject a higher authority to dispense judgement and tell what they can't do but still hold their neighbors to their standards. So we get dindus.
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No.1052023
>>1052021
>It's just the modern/liberal/post-christian/rousseau-like narrative that man is fundamentally "good" and he only commits ill deeds from not knowing what he's doing or it being society's fault or he's really trying to save the world in the edgiest way there is and it actually working. Not from a predatory drive in himself. Not from seeing that taking is more way more cool than sharing.
Only for niggers and mudslimes. Everyone else gets the "people are teh evulz, wow i lost all faith in humanity XD" treatment
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No.1052028
What about a villain who does bad stuff because he has overt un-treated ASPD, is bored, and just fell into being a bad guy because that's one of the sources of income he could consistently hold down?
I'm writing a villain in a western-style fantasy and I want to know if other people think this is a compelling character idea.
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No.1052031
>>1052028
Sounds believable enough, but these things aren't inherently interesting in and of themselves.
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No.1052034
>>1051979
The Last Airbender never hid the Fire Nation being brutal conquerors who were polluting/corrupting the land. Sure, Sozen might have honestly believed that the FN would build a brighter world but we're shown otherwise and nothing says Ozai and Azula believed so.
>>1052023
That's just a side-effect of buying into univeralism with a touch of noble savage. Niggers and Mudslimes are more less modern versions of the noble savage. The "uncorrupted man" They are projected onto the imagined virtues our Left friends wish.
Leftie/Post-Christian/Modern narratives are in the awkward position where they can't decide if the world is inherently "good"/humanity is inherently "good" with "evil" an intrusive presence or if it is all foul by nature. The White Devil VS Noble Savage is just a manifestation of this problem.
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No.1052039
>>1052016
You're not countering my point, you're just reinforcing it. Before Return, neither of the other two tried to pretend that Vader was some misguided but ultimately noble soul. Then suddenly, Luke starts yapping on how "B-b-but there's still good in him!" with virtually zero backing it up and Vader starts acting like less of a dick because…reasons. And hell, there's no evidence that Vader ever really cared about anything, which Return desperately tries to make the case, even in Empire there's no implication that Vader cares about Luke as anything more than just a tool to help him overthrow Sidious. When Luke refuses to join him, Vader is quite content to just let him die.
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No.1052040
>>1052031
That's reassuring. Any focus he has in the story is more towards his personality, the way he plays off the people he works with, and his history. Hopefully all that together makes him more interesting, but I really need to get my stuff in front of people who aren't family or friends. I don't want to spam this thread with with manuscripts or paragraphs of text. Does /co/ have an active writing thread? I couldn't find anything in the catalog but I may be blind/not know what to search for.
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No.1052161
>>1052039
>You're not countering my point, you're just reinforcing it.
You're not responding to my point, you're just ignoring it and repeating your own bullshit.
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No.1052555
>>1044186
One of the things I love about Zuko's arc was how after he seemingly turned good in Ba Sing Se he sided with the Fire Nation immediately. And it makes sense because he couldn't catch the Avatar out of circumstance not because he chose to. So once he finally stands up to his father it makes it all that much more powerful.
>>1051909
That always bugged me about Ben 10. The continuity seemed off regarding Kevin. Especially that one arc in Ben 10 Ultimate where he absorbs too much power and turns into a monster and goes beserk and everyone thinks he's too far gone. That made me think he was going to be defeated and locked up becoming Kevin 11,000.
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No.1052560
>>1052161
>.t I have no response so I’m going to throw your comment back at you in a way that I think sounds clever
Well, that was quick.
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No.1052581
>>1042546
Usually the best villains are ones who think that they're the good guys.
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No.1052650
>>1052560
Would you prefer I just repeat what I wrote in my first post? Would that be more on your intellectual level?
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No.1052651
>>1052560
Or maybe you'd like me to tell you that you actually agree with me?
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No.1052840
>>1052581
Agree in cases like Luthor and Dr Doom. The only time I don't like it as much is with Magneto. Where in his case some writers overplay the sympathetic villain angle and it makes his excuse of doing his evil because of the Holocaust become hollow and meaningless.
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No.1053044
>>1051914
>Elder God Tier
Villainous Mary Sue/self-insert
>Great tier
World's smallest violin
>High tier
What if Batman was a villain?
>Mid tier
Villains with basic motivation
>Meh tier
Villains with no motivation
>Shit tier
Villains with basic motivation
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No.1053066
>>1053044
>Villainous Mary Sue/self-insert
Not necessarily - that's more of a sign of bad writing.
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No.1053071
>>1052840
Yeah, I much preferred it when Mags was openly Mutant-supremacist. The holocaust thing was less the reason why he was the villain and more just concrete proof about why he sees humanity as being irredeemable and in need of replacement by superior beings.
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No.1053080
>>1052650
No need, I'll post it for everyone to see what a dumbass you are.
>In Return he's considered so far gone that no one except Luke, not even Vader himself, believes he's redeemable. In the end, he nearly lets Luke get killed before his fatherly feelings (which were established in Empire) lead him to sacrifice his own life to save his son.
Continued with mine.
>Return basically does a 180 on his character and makes him "not so bad all along" outta fucking nowhere.
>Before Return, neither of the other two tried to pretend that Vader was some misguided but ultimately noble soul. Then suddenly, Luke starts yapping on how "B-b-but there's still good in him!" with virtually zero backing it up and Vader starts acting like less of a dick because…reasons.
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No.1053083
>>1053044
That pic is over ten years old and was posted a lot by edgelords on 4chan back in the day. I'd chalk up that pic part not reading/watching/playing enough shit and that being made before everyone and their mom doing the sympathetic villian bit.
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No.1060671
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No.1060672
I'd pull a deconstruction. I'd give a villain a redemption arc only to show that he is, in fact a villain, that the hero attempt to reform it. I'd go an step further and straight out make their tragic back story pure bullshit just to rub it in the hero's face.
It's pretty much the point of Batman's pointless crusade to save Gotham, so it's not exactly original.
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No.1060673
>>1051970
> very, very few criminals in the world have true justifications for their motives and don't understand that what they are doing is wrong.
What. No. No one actually thinks of themselves as evil or as a villain unless they're incredibly fucked in the head. Just watch anyone who isn't a psychopath get sentenced, in fact psychopaths too since they tend to commit crimes for a reason. The reality is a lot of criminals are just outright mentally ill.
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No.1060674
>>1060673
I come from a shithole country, and I was a penal lawyer well, just an intern of sorts and I can genuinely tell you, those fucking subhumans commited crimes for the fuck of it. They don't see themselves as villains, but that doesn't mean there's a reason in their ways, or at least a complicated one. They often do it for status, for fun, or just because they are high, and that includes murder.
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No.1060675
>>1060674
>They don't see themselves as villains
Scratch that, I forgot that being "bad" was also a symbol of status between them.
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No.1060743
>>1053080
He doesn't want to kill Vader because he's his father. He was once the great hero Anakin Skywalker. Before he thought Vader was just some villain that needed to be stopped. But now that he knows that Vader is his father, he believes he can save him. He doesn't want to lose the only parent he has left.
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No.1061577
>>1060675
>>1060674
You're getting into group dynamics who have their own weird ass morality system.
Essentially in that scenario the idea of fitting in or gaining notoriety for doing something bad outweights the morality of it. They're too stupid to realize what they're doing is wrong, hurts society as a whole, weakens their status among the functioning members of society, etc etc, and in the end are essentially under developed adults or over grown children and they're the reason the prison system exists.
Too bad the prison system doesn't do anything to actually teach anyone about following the law, we just lock them up and give them free bedding and food for a while. But that's another issue.
Essentially it's all in how a person's mind prioritizes things. They don't do things for just "No reason" just like any leader wont do things for the evil of it. Anyone who wants to enact major change or go into a leadership position wont think of themselves as a villain. This only works for societal scenarios though. In a business environment it's all out the window. Corporations are the true evil. But they're rarely depicted in fantasy media anyway. In general they're glamorized and lauded lately more than anything. I can't even think of a recent example of "coorporations are bad" trope in media.
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No.1061578
>>1061577
I think that describes "villains" close enough, for all practical purposes.
>Corporations are the true evil
he says without qualifying it. As if, unlike the violent criminals, the people in charge of those simply prioritize profit over morals for no reason.
Come on man.
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No.1061592
>>1061577
Pretty sure the 90's had a lot of corporate bad guys.
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No.1061603
>>1042633
>Killmonger who actually have awful motivations and are shown to be worse than your average villain,
Kek, triggered Nazi
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No.1061605
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No.1061629
Catra redemption arc: good idea or no?
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No.1061633
>>1061578
Which is why the corporation itself is the true evil. The people behind it are just cogs in a machine built purely to make money. You can't expect a man to not feed his family or care for his own, so telling them to "stop this money making" is a failure on the system's part. Then there's the distribution of wealth issue, such as the fact that there's an incredibly small minority of people who have investments and generally are on the boards of all these coorporations. And the more I think about it /pol/ has a lot in common with the democratic socialists. 90% of their bad guys are the same, Jews and businessmen. The only thing they disagree on is racial politics and how the wealth should be redistributed.
but yes, you get it. Everyone is motivated by basic needs. Everyone has motivation. No one is evil for evil's sake. But the stupider the person the flimsier the excuse. I like to have it on a range, with school shooters being on the bottom of the barrel end of the spectrum being "beyond retarded" and the other end of the spectrum being Hitler who was a well intentioned extremist.
>>1061592
I can think of a ton from pre 2010s but then politics shifted and republicans became standard stock villains instead of businessmen.
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No.1069530
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No.1069842
So hows that redemption arc in My hero academia?
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No.1069844
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