daf025 No.844835
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Help me with this, /christian/. I really want to become a believer but first I need an answer to the biggest logical paradox in christianity.
God created everything that exists and gave his creatures free will. If we use this free will for evil deeds, we get punished. So far so good. BUT with our free will we are able to take away free will of others if we want to. We can imprison, torture and brainwash (MK ultra) others for the purpose of turning them evil too so the cycle of turning good people evil never stops. If free will is so important that god even allows evil to exist so we can have a choice, what happens with people whose choice have been forcefully taken away? Some people have literally no choice and yet when you ask average christian why god allows evil they say it is because he want us to have free will to choose between good and evil. Human brain works like a programmable machine and there isnt any scientific proof of free will, its all about faith that we actually have one. Therefore evil have priority before good
in case of converting other people because good cannot force anyone to be good, it would be illogical and even the concept of christian god is proof of that. It is obvious that the world is heading to apocalypse of biblical proportions, but according to logic in good vs evil equation it appears to be pretty much inevitable. Therefore prophecy about the great tribulation in the end times is not really a prophecy, it is predetermined outcome of the nature of this world.
lets wrap this up:
good god = choice between good and evil
choice between good and evil = evil inevitably wins because you can force people to turn evil, but cannot force them to turn good
evil inevitably wins = need for a messiah
messiah stops evil = free will to choose evil is forcefully taken away = evil
It always ends with some kind of predetermination, so why even bother with an illusion of choice? Right now I believe that this world is just a dream of one mind pretending to be billon of individual minds, playing games of "what if?" ad infinitum. I think that this is the only solution to problem of evil. Many respectable mystics and sages claim that they found this secret after lifetime of searching for god and meditating. The reason why Im trying to find logical way to christianity is because I want to know if my loved ones are really individual beings or if I actually only loved myself, pretending I love separate being. So go on and change my mind, Im open to new ideas but they have to make sense.
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ab5d28 No.844838
That's not a paradox it's a misunderstanding of sin. Christian theology does not teach the good vs evil conception that you have described.
It is not true to say that someone can be manipulated by others so as to not be capable of being good, it's actually the case that all of us fall short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. Because we are all sinners, Christ (the sinless man) died for us. The choice involved is to believe on Him or to perish in your sin.
Even in your conception I do not see how determinism follows, and simulation theory doesn't necessarily follow from determinism either.
The apologetic concept you are almost addressing is the free will defense, which is a response to the logical problem of evil not determinism or simulation theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga%27s_free-will_defense?wprov=sfla1
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daf025 No.844839
>>844838
If we all fall short, it means that we were designed like that and god leaves us no choice but to believe in him or else. Doesnt sound infinitely loving to me, more like straight up manipulation.
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ab5d28 No.844840
>>844839
Open your Bible to page one and start reading
Man was created good.
Man disobeyed God, ate the apple, sin entered the world.
Are you genuinely asking for a Christian's theological input or are you concern trolling?
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daf025 No.844842
>>844840
Why should we suffer for choice of someone else and call it just? Seems like you are the one who is trolling.
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ab5d28 No.844843
>>844842
We don't. Each of us sins.
There is a neoplatonist version of original sin through Augustine that vaguely follows what you said, but it's wrong.
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daf025 No.844845
>>844843
Everybody starts sinning because of ignorance, not choice. We are not born with ten commandments in our brain knowing the consequence. If this is already enough to fall short, nobody can fit gods impossible requirement and this whole messiah thing is forced upon us. Once again, how is this just?
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14ea1c No.844846
>>844839
While im not an expert on theodicy, i have read Marcus Aurelius.
That quote is fake, and makes absolutely no sense in his philosophy("live a good life" would mean aligning yourself to the will of Providence in stoicism, which would be kind of difficult if you think gods are either inexistent,or so distant as to be irrelevant).
It applies to their philosophical opponents, the epicureans, ironically.
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ab5d28 No.844848
>>844845
The fact that there is only one way out of sin is not a rejection of free will, especially considering the way out is entirely by grace.
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daf025 No.844849
>>844846
>if indeed there are gods, gods will not let you fall into evil
For this to be true both god and evil cannot exist. Makes absolutely no sense.
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daf025 No.844850
>>844848
It would be grace only if we had full knowledge of sin and how to avoid it from the beginning. Its like I would make you get burned by fire without telling you that fire would hurt you, then offer you healing and saying Im merciful for healing you. True love would never let you get hurt.
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ab5d28 No.844851
>>844850
>It would be grace only if we had full knowledge of sin and how to avoid it from the beginning.
What?
When a charity doctor removes cataracts from an african tribesman's eyes, is it only an act of grace if the african knew how cataracts work or how to avoid them?
This is a non sequitur
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596ceb No.844852
>>844835
Genesis 6:5. Man's heart plots nothing but continual evil. This isn't because everything we do is depraved, but we lack the purity of heart to make truly free choices. We all fall short in other words, but all is not lost because 1 John 2:1, we have Christ, who is the propitiation for our sins.
Consider also Genesis 50:20, God knows we are evil, but while we plot evil, God plots for our good. So in fact it is good that is inescapable, not evil.
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daf025 No.844853
>>844851
This doesnt work here because doctor and tribesman are strangers, but god not only created us, but in his omnipotence could even prevent any bad thing happening to us.
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ab5d28 No.844854
>>844853
It's an analogy to illustrate your break in logic
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daf025 No.844855
>>844852
If god wants good, why not make it good from the beginning? Why all the unnecessary extra steps? Is life like a theatre for him so he needs a plot with enemy and a hero to make it interesting?
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389b9b No.844864
>>844845
>Everybody starts sinning because of ignorance, not choice.
This is just a Socratic prejudice. Many times men willingly choose what will bring their ruin.
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3bc0d6 No.844878
>>844835
>I really want to become a believer but
oh look it's this thread again.
hit the bricks OP. only one who's gonna make you a believer is yourself.
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2baa0b No.844915
>>844855
>Is life like a theatre?
When you say that life is like theatre, you give the impression that you are in some way, offended. You want to say that you think that a God which treats you as a character in a theatre of his creation, is an immoral God. But you should not be offended, you are only offended because you have an unsupportable claim in your heart, that you are important and deserving. But this is all backwards; rather what has happened is that God has given you life (by causing a universe which he knew you would be alive in). God had no obligation to do this at all, so he also has no obligation to shield you from evil.
But at any rate, omnibenevolence does not presuppose that God must stop all evil all the time. Evil gives us the opportunity for heroism and humility. Heroism, because the good needs defending, humility because we ourselves do evil.
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e1bdb8 No.845124
The purpose isn't to glorify man, it is to glorify His Son. Not only this, but in the Lord God's far-reaching and deep wisdom, this purpose is a greater good. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. (John 3:35)
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
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