17ab7b No.843324
I'm new to orthodoxy. Do orthodox think hell doesn't exist ? Where are going bad people after death ? tx
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ae968d No.843325
Why would you even ask this question? Of course orthodox believe in hell. Its an interesting interpretation though because in Orthodoxy, hell and heaven are subjective manifestations of a person's experience of God while being in his full presence, for the rebelious, a Holy terror and for the redeemed, a glorious outpouring of love. So basically they aren't places.
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832ecc No.843378
>>843325
Correct, though "they aren't places" conotes to most that one only takes the Resurrection as a pretty poem, which orthodoxy does not.
"God's love is the fire of hell" is a better and more traditional phrasing.
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5c46b8 No.843381
>>843378
Was Augustine the first to say love can be hurtful?
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ae968d No.843389
>>843381
No, that was the band Nazareth
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17ab7b No.843455
>>843325
I don't understand. How can someone experience God as hell while being in His full presence ? You are sure at this point that He exist, so why a bad person will remain bad ? Does this mean that almost everyone are going to see heaven, because most of the people will love God when they see Him, as today most of the people are atheists
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ae968d No.843459
>>843455
No, because man's heart is deceitful above all things and men love darkness instead of light and many other things God's word says about man in his natural state, without the grace of God. Now me, I personally have some borderline-heretical ideas about certain individuals who only receive general revelation and make the best of it that they can, much in the same way old testament saints were saved without knowing the person of Jesus Christ, but if I'm wrong I'm wrong and God won't condemn me for thinking something generous towards other people, in my limited human understanding (especially if it aids my own faith). I would never not preach the gospel to an unbeliever though, since really almost all men don't make the best of their consciences and virtue and general revelation. Like I was, they are proud sinners who justify whatever they might occasion to do, and NEED special revelation to even think that they need to repent. In my experience there aren't people who are naturally inclined to seek truth and live virtuously and with humility. Its conceivable they exist but they are not a conspicuous portion of the human population.
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17ab7b No.843487
>>843459
Ok, thanks. This is a good way of thinking, from what"s I understand it's:
"You do not sin because it's forbidden and you'll go to hell, but you do not sin because you love God"
But I'm also a sinner and I love God. So the devil always try to tempt me by saying : "you can sin, God will forgive you because He knows that you love Him" …
So, this is the fight with ourself right ? Fight the against our pride, against the pride of Adam who eats the fruit, and at the end we should be pure love like God Is …
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aaa6c2 No.843499
>>843455
>most of the people will love God when they see Him
I disagree. People hate what little we are given, one can imagine hatred would be even greater when it intensifies.
I hope the Father gives me more time to repent and struggle so I can open myself up for grace.
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aaa6c2 No.843500
>>843487
>"you can sin, God will forgive you because He knows that you love Him"
The devil will always make sense, but he has no love and thus finds it foolish. Love has no because, it is not demanding, and does not seek its own interests.
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17ab7b No.843502
>>843500
> The devil will always make sense, but he has no love and thus finds it foolish. Love has no because, it is not demanding, and does not seek its own interests.
Right. God gives to us life and His unique Son so we can repent and all of this was from His love. We should be like God, meaning that we should love like Him to help everyone to get salvation from Christ
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ba124a No.843537
>>843502
Yes. Remember that part from the gospel of John, I believe, about how we love because God loved us first and how Christ says we should love one another as he loved us. That means the love we given unto others is not ours but the Father's.
It is not a matter of receiving love or not, but properly distributing. The malicious man receives just as much as the pious. However, only the latter alone gives it, be it a little, unto others, thus becoming greater than the former because giving is more important than receiving.
A famous parable of Saint Macarius is that in heaven all men sit at a banquet with a spoon longer than their arms, thus one can only feed another. In hell, men sit at the same banquet with the same spoons, but they curse and weep in hunger because they only think of feeding themselves.
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17ab7b No.843645
>>843537
Nice parable. So, for summarizing the subject with a concrete example, what will happen at the end to an atheist who doesn't believe in God but willing to if he had proofs ? will he see heaven or hell ?
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ba124a No.843646
>>843645
If not this reality, what would be proof? Every man has more than enough motivation to believe in Christ. They see but do not believe, thus they suffer from the greatest torture there can be: their own inability to love. Sin is the punishment of sin.
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0f996a No.843647
>>843646
the proof would be to see Christ during the judgement, meaning the would believe in Him at this precise moment even if they were atheist
at least that's what vatican II says, so I'd like to know if it's the same belief in orthodoxy
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5c46b8 No.843650
>>843537
Yes. Remember that part from the Old Testament, I believe, about how we murder because God murdered us first. That means the murder we given unto others is not ours but the Father's.
It is not a matter of receiving murder or not, but properly distributing. The malicious man receives just as much as the pious. However, only the latter alone gives it, be it a little, unto others, thus becoming greater than the former because giving is more important than receiving.
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ba124a No.843683
>>843647
Salvation is not a matter of mere recognition as one recognizes a Gaussian object since not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be saved. It is not profitable by default for the Lord to show himself.
Then the impious will not be able to sacrifice their lives for their friends, thus they will not know the greatest form of love which is to live for God and brother. We live for repentance through sacrifice, those who do reject this gift will rise up in eternal life without having sacrificed themselves and this will be the cause of their torment. Nothing sacred could enter into them, even if they beg for it because they did not sacrifice themselves for others. They will beg for the Father to sacrifice them and thus quench their thirst, but this will never be because they were already given a chance and even if the thirst were quenched, they would only reject it one more time.
>>843650
I suppose you posted by mistake.
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